1. On comprehension vs. advocacy, I think there are actually two types of advocacy. One is more like “application” and is analogous to medicine or engineering: we learn something (comprehension) that can then be applied for practical results. In Cowen & Collison’s article, they give the example of teaching better management practices to companies.
The other type is advocating for progress itself: promoting the idea that progress is even desirable and possible. I don’t think this has an analog in biology/medicine, because health is not a very controversial goal. There is no “dehealth” movement advocating sickness; no one calls health an “addition” or a “fetish,” etc.
(The question of whether you can both “study” and “advocate” at the same time is interesting and important, and it would be good to take that up in a separate post/thread here.)
2. Related, re:
The Progress Studies movement might consider framing its work as a response to the growing extremism of the STS movement.
I think that’s right. Although I wouldn’t define PS primarily as a response to any other idea or movement. PS would be needed and would be essentially the same even if STS didn’t exist.
3. Re “big tent”, I generally agree, although I think this is a subtle issue.
I definitely want to avoid dogmatic party lines, or dogmatism of any form. (The question of epistemic standards for the progress movement is also worth a separate post and discussion.)
That said, I do think that there are certain basic premises that are needed to give this community/movement some coherence and identity. I’ve identified those as: progress as a historical fact; human well-being as the standard of value; and a belief in human agency. In other words: progress is real, desirable, and possible. (And even within those basic premises, there’s room for debate over exact definition, interpretation, and applications.)
If we agree on the goal, then there is a lot of room for debate about specific policies and approaches. The progress community spans a range from progressive to libertarian, and I’d love to see people debate their preferred systems in terms of what actually achieves progress.
I would go even a bit further and say that I would like this community, and especially this forum, to be welcoming of people who aren’t even sure that they’re on board with the basic premises, and don’t self-identify with the movement. No need to pledge allegiance or anything. If you can contribute to the discussion, then we’re glad to have you here.
All that said, I would emphasize that I do think the basic premises matter, including “hammering out all the detailed nuances.” I think those premises have powerful consequences for how we interpret “progress” and what conclusions we draw about it. So even while we leave them somewhat open, I think we should do so not on the idea that basic premises are irrelevant fluff, but rather on the idea that we’re still figuring out what they are, as part of an iterative epistemic process of improving our views.
“Progress is real, desirable, and possible” is an inspiring slogan, but I would suggest that it’s actually mistaken. What we want is differential progress where we accelerate those technologies most likely to be beneficial and slow those technologies most likely to be harmful.
Nuclear non-proliferation has slowed the distribution of nukes; I acknowledge that this is slowing distribution rather than development.
There are conventions against the use of or development of biological weapons. These don’t appear to have been completely successful, but they’ve had some effect.
There has been a successful effort to prevent genetic enhancement—this may be net-positive or net-negative—but it shows the possibility of preventing development of a tech, even in China which was assumed to be the wild West.
But going further, progress studies wouldn’t exist if we didn’t think we could accelerate technologies. And as a matter if logic if we have the option to accelerate something we also have the option to not accelerate it, otherwise it was never an option. So even if we can’t slow a harmful technology relative to a baseline, we can at least not accelerateit.
Chris, you seem to be reducing “progress” down to “technology”. This is exactly the type of thing progress studies needs to clarify. As someone who has spent half his life studying progress, my two cents on the issue is that it is helpful to view two distinct types of progress. The first is what I call type 1 progress or progress in capability, knowledge or technology. This is nukes! Progress in technology and capability are fairly commonplace in history and even evolution.
The second is what I call type 2 progress, or progress in outcome or welfare. This is the hard one, and is extremely rare on a population level. The first and only known example of type 2 progress in the observable universe has been with humanity over the past 250 years or so.
Technology and science certainly play a crucial role in type 2 progress. But they are in no way sufficient.
OK. Why do these examples make “progress is real, desirable, and possible” mistaken?
Can’t it be understood that by “progress,” we mean progress on things that are good for human well-being? Does every reference to progress always have to include a qualifier or disclaimer?
Things that are good are desireable would seem like a tauntology.
But my deeper critique is that whether a motto is a good choice or not depends on the context. And while in the past it may have made sense to abstract out progress as good, we’re now at that point where operating within that abstraction can lead us horribly astray.
Thanks Adam! A few thoughts in response:
1. On comprehension vs. advocacy, I think there are actually two types of advocacy. One is more like “application” and is analogous to medicine or engineering: we learn something (comprehension) that can then be applied for practical results. In Cowen & Collison’s article, they give the example of teaching better management practices to companies.
The other type is advocating for progress itself: promoting the idea that progress is even desirable and possible. I don’t think this has an analog in biology/medicine, because health is not a very controversial goal. There is no “dehealth” movement advocating sickness; no one calls health an “addition” or a “fetish,” etc.
(The question of whether you can both “study” and “advocate” at the same time is interesting and important, and it would be good to take that up in a separate post/thread here.)
2. Related, re:
I think that’s right. Although I wouldn’t define PS primarily as a response to any other idea or movement. PS would be needed and would be essentially the same even if STS didn’t exist.
3. Re “big tent”, I generally agree, although I think this is a subtle issue.
I definitely want to avoid dogmatic party lines, or dogmatism of any form. (The question of epistemic standards for the progress movement is also worth a separate post and discussion.)
That said, I do think that there are certain basic premises that are needed to give this community/movement some coherence and identity. I’ve identified those as: progress as a historical fact; human well-being as the standard of value; and a belief in human agency. In other words: progress is real, desirable, and possible. (And even within those basic premises, there’s room for debate over exact definition, interpretation, and applications.)
If we agree on the goal, then there is a lot of room for debate about specific policies and approaches. The progress community spans a range from progressive to libertarian, and I’d love to see people debate their preferred systems in terms of what actually achieves progress.
I would go even a bit further and say that I would like this community, and especially this forum, to be welcoming of people who aren’t even sure that they’re on board with the basic premises, and don’t self-identify with the movement. No need to pledge allegiance or anything. If you can contribute to the discussion, then we’re glad to have you here.
All that said, I would emphasize that I do think the basic premises matter, including “hammering out all the detailed nuances.” I think those premises have powerful consequences for how we interpret “progress” and what conclusions we draw about it. So even while we leave them somewhat open, I think we should do so not on the idea that basic premises are irrelevant fluff, but rather on the idea that we’re still figuring out what they are, as part of an iterative epistemic process of improving our views.
“Progress is real, desirable, and possible” is an inspiring slogan, but I would suggest that it’s actually mistaken. What we want is differential progress where we accelerate those technologies most likely to be beneficial and slow those technologies most likely to be harmful.
What’s a good example of slowing a technology that is likely to be harmful?
Nuclear non-proliferation has slowed the distribution of nukes; I acknowledge that this is slowing distribution rather than development.
There are conventions against the use of or development of biological weapons. These don’t appear to have been completely successful, but they’ve had some effect.
There has been a successful effort to prevent genetic enhancement—this may be net-positive or net-negative—but it shows the possibility of preventing development of a tech, even in China which was assumed to be the wild West.
But going further, progress studies wouldn’t exist if we didn’t think we could accelerate technologies. And as a matter if logic if we have the option to accelerate something we also have the option to not accelerate it, otherwise it was never an option. So even if we can’t slow a harmful technology relative to a baseline, we can at least not accelerate it.
Chris, you seem to be reducing “progress” down to “technology”. This is exactly the type of thing progress studies needs to clarify. As someone who has spent half his life studying progress, my two cents on the issue is that it is helpful to view two distinct types of progress.
The first is what I call type 1 progress or progress in capability, knowledge or technology. This is nukes! Progress in technology and capability are fairly commonplace in history and even evolution.
The second is what I call type 2 progress, or progress in outcome or welfare. This is the hard one, and is extremely rare on a population level. The first and only known example of type 2 progress in the observable universe has been with humanity over the past 250 years or so.
Technology and science certainly play a crucial role in type 2 progress. But they are in no way sufficient.
OK. Why do these examples make “progress is real, desirable, and possible” mistaken?
Can’t it be understood that by “progress,” we mean progress on things that are good for human well-being? Does every reference to progress always have to include a qualifier or disclaimer?
Things that are good are desireable would seem like a tauntology.
But my deeper critique is that whether a motto is a good choice or not depends on the context. And while in the past it may have made sense to abstract out progress as good, we’re now at that point where operating within that abstraction can lead us horribly astray.