There is an argument to be made that e/acc is the Jungian shadow to EA.
There is a fundamental difference in principles between the two movements in that EA gradually and then suddenly fell into a paternalistic disregard (if not disdain) for the negative feedback that the market provides—e.g., Helen Toner’s belief that the dissolution of OpenAI was an acceptable alternative to resolving differences with the CEO. But with this exception, most of the principles espoused by EA (scientific mindset, openness to falsifying evidence, integrity, and teamwork) are shared by e/acc.
But EA started with philosophical principles and became a mass movement. e/acc more or less has begun as a mass movement, and is only gradually and haltingly identifying its principles.
Both EA and e/acc reflexively repress the valid differences they have in their approach to promoting progress. While e/acc is now on the ascendant and EA on the ropes, until e/acc or EA can integrate their shadow, both will fall short of their potential in activating human energy in service of progress.
What would a fully integrated vision of progress look like? It would acknowledge the valid view of e/acc that markets generally provide the best mechanism for gathering and processing information about the needs of dispersed groups of individuals while at the same time acknowledging and grappling with the reality that there are some important needs that cannot be met by markets (either because the preconditions for market formation have not been or cannot be met).
But I would be very careful posting this sort of essay online right now. You are either for or against at the moment. Anybody trying to nuance things is likely to be sidelined.
Most of the principles espoused by EA (scientific mindset, openness to falsifying evidence, integrity, and teamwork) are shared by e/acc.
EA here.
Doesn’t seem true as far as I can tell. E/acc doesn’t want to expose it’s beliefs to falsification; that’s why it’s almost always about attacking the other side and almost never about arguing for things on the object level.
E/acc doesn’t care about integrity either. They’re very happy to Tweet all kinds of weird conspiracy theories.
Anyway, I could be biased here, but that’s how I see it.
I can understand why you say what you say about falsification. The way the e/acc community is operating right now is more crusade than critical. But I haven’t seen the evidence for lack of integrity that you appear to have seen. Not saying it’s not there; just I haven’t seen it.
I wouldn’t write off the people behind e/acc just yet, however. In the end, the scientific mindset may win out over the short term desire to score points and dunk on a competing vision that has been embarrassed in various ways.
If there were any part of e/acc that you might find worth incorporating into EA, what might it be?
Hadn’t seen that. Too bad he’s misrepresenting facts.
But that hints at what might be worth reevaluating in EA. Jung had this notion of individuation, in which we have to incorporate into our personality conflicting aspects of ourselves in order to fully realize our capabilities. EA seems very academic or analytical in its approach to promoting progress whereas e/acc is more political or emotional. I believe it will take both to realize a future in which progress is accelerated in a way that benefits even the most vulnerable members of society.
There is an argument to be made that e/acc is the Jungian shadow to EA.
There is a fundamental difference in principles between the two movements in that EA gradually and then suddenly fell into a paternalistic disregard (if not disdain) for the negative feedback that the market provides—e.g., Helen Toner’s belief that the dissolution of OpenAI was an acceptable alternative to resolving differences with the CEO. But with this exception, most of the principles espoused by EA (scientific mindset, openness to falsifying evidence, integrity, and teamwork) are shared by e/acc.
But EA started with philosophical principles and became a mass movement. e/acc more or less has begun as a mass movement, and is only gradually and haltingly identifying its principles.
Both EA and e/acc reflexively repress the valid differences they have in their approach to promoting progress. While e/acc is now on the ascendant and EA on the ropes, until e/acc or EA can integrate their shadow, both will fall short of their potential in activating human energy in service of progress.
What would a fully integrated vision of progress look like? It would acknowledge the valid view of e/acc that markets generally provide the best mechanism for gathering and processing information about the needs of dispersed groups of individuals while at the same time acknowledging and grappling with the reality that there are some important needs that cannot be met by markets (either because the preconditions for market formation have not been or cannot be met).
But I would be very careful posting this sort of essay online right now. You are either for or against at the moment. Anybody trying to nuance things is likely to be sidelined.
EA here.
Doesn’t seem true as far as I can tell. E/acc doesn’t want to expose it’s beliefs to falsification; that’s why it’s almost always about attacking the other side and almost never about arguing for things on the object level.
E/acc doesn’t care about integrity either. They’re very happy to Tweet all kinds of weird conspiracy theories.
Anyway, I could be biased here, but that’s how I see it.
I can understand why you say what you say about falsification. The way the e/acc community is operating right now is more crusade than critical. But I haven’t seen the evidence for lack of integrity that you appear to have seen. Not saying it’s not there; just I haven’t seen it.
I wouldn’t write off the people behind e/acc just yet, however. In the end, the scientific mindset may win out over the short term desire to score points and dunk on a competing vision that has been embarrassed in various ways.
If there were any part of e/acc that you might find worth incorporating into EA, what might it be?
Most recent thing that pops into mind is Beff trying to spread the meme that EA is just a bunch of communists.
E/acc seems to do a good job of bringing people together in Twitter spaces.
Hadn’t seen that. Too bad he’s misrepresenting facts.
But that hints at what might be worth reevaluating in EA. Jung had this notion of individuation, in which we have to incorporate into our personality conflicting aspects of ourselves in order to fully realize our capabilities. EA seems very academic or analytical in its approach to promoting progress whereas e/acc is more political or emotional. I believe it will take both to realize a future in which progress is accelerated in a way that benefits even the most vulnerable members of society.