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Ben Norman, Max Maton, Jian Xin Lim and I are working on a Progress Studies Society in London for students/professionals. Our initial experiment is an 8-week in-person project-based fellowship, aimed at helping talented individuals start working on concrete problems relevant to progress studies. We’re looking for lists of relevant project ideas—similar to what people have done in AI safety (e.g. here and here). The people working on these would be lower context, but dedicated/smart. We would be very grateful if anyone has suggestions :)
Regarding discount rate, 0% discount is pretty common in EA circles, I think, although I think many recognize it should be at least a bit above 0% to account for epistemic uncertainty about how long humans will continue to exist.
The goal: to empower more people — not just technologists or policymakers — to actively think about and shape AI’s long-term trajectory. We use storytelling and worldbuilding to crowdsource diverse, ambitious, and grounded visions of the future, and explore practical pathways to get there.
The course brings together insights from a wide range of thinkers across science, governance, and philosophy, including:
Helen Toner – Director of Strategy at CSET and former OpenAI board member
Anthony Aguirre – Co-founder of the Future of Life Institute
Hannah Ritchie – Lead Researcher at Our World in Data
Ada Palmer – Historian and sci-fi author
Glen Weyl – Founder of RadicalxChange, Microsoft Research
Robert Lempert – Senior Scientist at RAND, expert in scenario planning
Each module includes a short video, reading recommendations, and an interactive assignment to build your own future scenario.
Yes, that’s correct. Ord’s writes this about discount rates:
The issue raised by this paper has also been masked in many economic analyses by an assumption of pure time-preference: that society should have a discount rate on value itself. If we use that assumption, we end up with a somewhat different argument for advancing progress — one based on impatience; on merely getting to the good stuff sooner, even if that means getting less of it.
Even then, the considerations I’ve raised would undermine this argument. For if it does turn out that advancing progress across the board is bad from a patient perspective, then we’d be left with an argument that ‘advancing progress is good, but only due to fundamental societal impatience and the way it neglects future losses’. The rationale for advancing progress would be fundamentally about robbing tomorrow to pay for today, in a way that is justified only because society doesn’t (or shouldn’t) care much about the people at the end of the chain when the debt comes due. This strikes me as a very troubling position and far from the full-throated endorsement of progress that its advocates seek.
So what’s the best argument for having a discount rate on value itself?
Our primitive monkey brains are good at over-estimating very unlikely risks.[2]
I think this is presupposing the question isn’t it.
If a risk is indeed very unlikely, then we will tend to overestimate it. (If the probability is 0 it’s impossible to underestimate)
But for risks that are actually quite likely, then we are more likely to underestimate them.
And of course, bias estimates cut both ways. “Our primitive monkey brains are good at ignoring and underestimating abstract and hard to understand risks”.
The latest advances in AI reasoning come from OpenAI’s o1 and Google’s AlphaProof. In this post, I explore how these new models work, and what that tells us about the path to AGI.
Interestingly, unlike GPT-2 → GPT-3 → GPT-4, neither of these models rely on increased scale to drive capabilities. Instead, both systems rely on training data that shows, not just the solution to a problem, but the path to that solution. This opens a new frontier for progress in AI capabilities: how to create that sort of data?
In this post, I review what is known about how AlphaProof and o1 work, discuss the connection between their training data and their capabilities, and identify some problems that remain to be solved in order for capabilities to continue to progress along this path.
Ok. Firstly I do think your “Embodied information” is real. I just think it’s pretty small. You need the molecular structure for 4 base pairs of DNA, and for 30 ish protiens. And this wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_and_RNA_codon_tables
That seems to be in the kilobytes. It’s a rather small amount of information compared to DNA.
Epigenetics is about extra tags that get added. So theoretically the amount of information could be nearly as much as in the DNA. For example, methyization can happen on A and C, so that’s 1 bit per base pair, in theory.
Also, the structure of DNA hasn’t changed much since early micro-organisms existed. Neither has a lot of the other embodied information.
Therefore the information doesn’t contain optimization over intelligence, because all life forms with a brain had the same DNA.
Humans are better than LLM’s at highly abstact tasks like quantum physics or haskel programming.
You can’t argue that this is a result of billions of years of evolution. Sea sponges weren’t running crude haskel programs a billion years ago.
Therefore, whatever data the human brain has, it is highly general information about intelligence.
Suppose we put the full human genome, plus a lot of data about DNA and protein structure, into the LLM training data. In theory, the LLM has all the data that evolution worked so hard to produce. In practice, LLM’s aren’t smart enough to come up with fundamental insights about the nature of intelligence from the raw human genome.
So there is some piece of data, with a length between a few bits and several megabytes, that is implicitly encoded in the human genome, and that describes an algorithm for higher intelligence in general.
If it’s a collection of millions of unintelligible interacting “hacks” tuned to statistical properties of the environment, then maybe not.
Well those “hacks” would have to generalize well. Modern humans operate WAY out of distribution and work on very different problems.
Would interacting hacks that were optimized to hunt mammoths also happen to work in solving abstract maths problems?
So how would this work. There would need to be a set of complicated hacks that work on all sorts of problems, including abstract maths. Abstract maths has limitless training data in theory. And if the hacks apply to all sorts of problems, then data on all sorts of problems is useful in finding the hacks.
If the hacks contain a million bits of information, and help answer a million true/false questions, then they are in principle findable with sufficient compute.
Also, bear in mind that evolution is INCREADIBLY data inefficient. Yes there are a huge number of ancestors. But evolution only finds out how many children got produced. A human can look at a graph and realize that a 1% increase in parameter X causes a 1% improvement in performance. Evolution randomly makes some individual with 1% more X, and they get killed by a tiger. Bad luck.
And again. Most of the billions of years there were no brains at all. The gap between humans and monkeyish creatures is a few Million years.
AIXI is a theoretical model of an ideal intelligence, it’s a few lines of maths.
I’m not saying it’s totally impossible that there is some weird form of evolution data wall. But mostly this looks like a fairly straightforward insight, possessable, and not possessed by us. I think it’s pretty clear that the human algorithm makes at least a modest amount of sense and isn’t too hard to find with trial and error on the same training dataset. (When the dataset is large, and the amount of outer optimization is fairly modest, the risk of overfitting in the outer stage is small)
> It also seems vanishingly unlikely that the pressures on middle class jobs, artists, and writers will decrease even if we rolled back the last 5 years of progress in AI—but we wouldn’t have the accompanying productivity gains which could be used to pay for UBI or other programs.
When plenty of people are saying that AGI is likely to cause human extinction, and the worst scenario you can come up with is middle class jobs, your side is the safe one.
I think your notion of “environmental progress” itself is skewing things.
When humans were hunter gatherers, we didn’t have much ability to modify our surroundings.
Currently, we are bemoaning global warming, but if the earth was cooling instead, we would bemoan that too.
Environmentalism seems to only look at part of the effects.
No one boasts about how high the biodiversity is at zoos. No one is talking about cities being a great habitat for pigeons as an environmental success story.
The whole idea around the environmentalist movement is the naturalistic fallacy turned up to 11. Any change made by humans automatically becomes a problem.
It’s goal seems to be “make the earth resemble what it would look like had humans never existed”.
(Name one way humans made an improvement to some aspect of the environment compared to what it was a million years ago)
A goal that kind of gets harder by default as humanities ability to modify the earth increases.
One system I think would be good is issue based voting.
So for example, there would be several candidates for the position of “health minister”, and everyone gets to vote on that.
And independently people get to vote for the next minister for education.
Other interesting add ons include voting for an abstract organization, not a person. One person that decides everything is an option on the balot, but so are various organizations, with various decision procedures. You can vote for the team that listens to prediction markets, or even some sub-democracy system. (Because the organizations can use arbitrary mechanisms, including more votes, teams of people, whatever they like)
Approval voting is good.
An interesting option is to run a 1-of-many election.
So you can cast a ballot in the health-election or in the education election or in the energy election or …, depending on which issue you feel most strongly about. (But you can’t vote on both issues at one time.) This has a nice property that the fewer people care about a topic, the further your vote goes if you decide to vote on that topic.
Most of the current attempts that interact with everyday people are random greenwashing trying to get people to sort recycling or use paper straws. Yes solar panel tech is advancing, but that’s kind of in the background to most peoples day to day lives.
And all this goal is promising is that things won’t get worse via climate change. It isn’t actually a vision of positive change.
A future with ultra cheap energy, electric short range aviation in common use etc.
Building true artificial intelligence (AGI, or artificial general intelligence)
Half the experts are warning that this is a poisoned chalice. Can we not unite towards this goal until/unless we come to a conclusion that the risk of human extinction from AGI takeover is low.
Also, if we do succeed in AGI alignment, the line from AGI to good things is very abstract.
What specific nice thing will the AGI do? (The actual answer is also likely to be a bizarre world full of uploaded minds or something. Real utopian futures aren’t obliged to make sense to the average person within a 5 minute explanation.)
Colonizing Mars
Feels like a useless vanity project. (See the moon landings. Lots of PR, not much practical benefit.)
How about something like curing aging? Even the war on cancer was a reasonable vision of a positive improvement.
Thanks Donald, good feedback. I agree about maximizing good over minimizing bad. Curing aging, or extending healthspan, is a great one. Certainly an easier sell than becoming a multiplanetary species.
So, even if Sam Altman would declare tomorrow that he has built a digital God and that he will roll it out for free to everyone, this would not immediately lead to full automation.
Superintelligent AI (whether friendly or not) may not feel obliged to follow human laws and customs that slow down regular automation.
That is a very fair point! I guess even within human laws there is some point before “God-level” where the “automation overhang” is reduced when AI becomes so good that it can compete with the product/services of many companies end-to-end rather than relying on integration into business processes. Still, I think it’s fair to say that a) business integration can be/is a bottleneck to automation and b) “automation overhang” differs between products/service based on market structure (eg lower in management consulting, higher in public transport)
I have no idea what superintelligence following existing laws even looks like.
Take mind uploading. Is it
Murder
A (currently unapproved) medical procedure
Not something the law makes any mention of, so permitted by default.
The current law is very vague with respect to tech that doesn’t exist yet. And there are a few laws which, depending on interpretation, might be logically impossible to follow.
ASI by default pushes right to the edge of what is technically possible, not a good fit with vague rules.
You are raising good questions, though they are probably beyond the scope for me to answer. My high-level take would be that there are quite a few existing laws that could apply in such a scenario (eg Neuralink-implants to record brain-activity need FDA approval) and that we should expect laws to be adapted to new circumstances caveated with the pacing problem.
The antibodies argument always made the most sense to me. But note that this is an argument for some breast milk, not an all-breast-milk diet—that is, it’s not an argument against formula, just an argument against an all-formula diet. I mention this because when we were in the hospital with our kid, they were pushing against formula very hard.
Also, it’s not an argument for literal feeding at the breast, as opposed to pumping and then bottle-feeding with the breast milk, which is easier for some people.
Emily Oster covers breastfeeding in Chapter 4 of Cribsheet, more extensively than in the 538 article you linked to. IIRC, she notes that there is evidence of benefit for the mother in terms of reduced breast cancer risk (no idea why that would be, though).
(But in general, I agree that Oster is too quick to say “it doesn’t matter” about things that we don’t have rigorous evidence for, rather than trying to make an informed decision about the best course of action based on what data and theories we do have. Other than that minor criticism, though, I am a big fan of her work.)
Yeah, I think Oster is great. I think I only differ with her in two respects:
As you noted, she sometimes seems to imply “absence of evidence is evidence of absence”.
I think she’s too quick to dismiss PROBIT. In Cribsheet, she notes that the IQ measurements at 6.5 might be biased since the evaluators were not blinded. But she doesn’t mention the audit results or the teacher evaluation results. None of these were significant, but every single subtest was positive, and had surprisingly large effects once you account for the fact that the intervention had such a small effect on breastfeeding.
For most of the plausible mechanisms, it seems like partial breastfeeding (and/or pumping) could capture most of the benefits. The major exceptions would be if the local water was unhealthy, or some of the weirder theories, e.g. that babies feeding in a supine position might cause temporary deafness. (Sounds crazy to me, but seems to be taken seriously).
Regarding benefits for the mother, may I introduce you to the most surprising thing I learned of all: Breastfeeding apparently causes the uterus to contract faster.
Here are my initial suggestions, keeping in mind that chaos theory is a subset of dynamical systems theory. For some modern applications it has been subsumed as an element of applied complexity science.
1. The Predictors: How a band of maverick physicists used chaos theory to trade their way to a fortune on Wall Street, Thomas A. Bass, Henry Holt and Company, New York, 1999.
2. Increasing Returns and Path Dependence in the Economy, W. Brian Arthur, The University of Michigan Press, 1994
3. Complexity and the Economy, W. Brian Arthur, Oxford University Press, 2015
4. Complexity Economics, Dialogues of the Applied Complexity Network, W. Brian Arthur, Eric D. Beinhocker, Allison Stanger, Editors, SFI Press, 2020
5. Making Sense of Chaos: A Better Economics for a Better World, J. Doyne Farmer, Penguin Random House UK, 2024
6. Chaos and Nonlinear Dynamics: An Introduction for Scientists and Engineers, 2nd Edition, Robert C. Hilborn, Oxford University Press, 2000. Take a look at Chapter 11 and Chapter 12.
7. Nonlinear Spatio-Temporal Dynamics and Chaos in Semiconductors, Eckehard Scholl, Cambridge University Press, 2001
8. Chaos in Circuits and Systems, Guanrong Chen and Tetsushi Ueta, Editors, World Scientific Press, 2002. Recommended Chapters: 5, 6,10, 12,13, 17, 22, 23, 24, 26, 27.
Many of the engineering applications can be found in application dependent modern circuit designs. Spread spectrum communications and advanced defense electronic applications make use of tools and methods from items 6, 7, and 8.
Elizabeth and Alex—This is an interesting article. More broadly, there is a significant community of scientists/engineers/mathematicians that have worked in dynamical systems, nonlinear dynamics, chaos theory, and applications of chaotic dynamics. A reasonable number of technical monographs and textbooks have been written on these areas since the early to mid 1980’s. Applications exist in electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, fluid dynamics, biology, ecology, economics, networks, medical science, applied mathematics,…. I am not sure whether you want to do a follow up article, or devote time to further investigation, but I am happy to provide pointers to relevant literature if you like.
The list of fields you gave makes me a little nervous, so I should clarify that I’m looking for specific, practical applications that have become widespread and paid off. ApEn is better than nothing, but was outcompeted in every application. Most of the applications of chaos to ecology were retroactive explanations, with an occasional prediction, but almost never a story like “we implemented chaos-derived management in these fisheries and they did better/worse than control fisheries”.
The sheer volume of applications that never went anywhere makes it hard to find the successful practical applications, so I’m very grateful for pointers. But I do need pointers to specific successes, not fields where the math was tried.
This is a huge undertaking, and I admire and respect both your industry and your courage in it.
Two questions/comments:
Is there a page I can bookmark that will have links to everything that has been published up to that date? I haven’t found it if one exists.
I love the core value of human life first made explicit in what’s been published to date, but I’m struggling with the concept of agency. I feel like the word agency gets thrown around a lot these days, and I’m afraid that may have muddied the waters for me at least in understanding the ultimate point.
But is agency even necessary? What if it was just techno-humanism without this additional concept of agency? That’s what I find myself wondering at this stage. I found some earlier work by the author here: https://blog.rootsofprogress.org/progress-humanism-agency and I’m guessing the same or similar use of “agency” is intended. I’ll keep reading to see how this plays out, but at least for now I’m not seeing the case for agency clearly — meaning both that I don’t quite understand what agency means and that whatever it means it’s not clear how it’s a necessary moral imperative to human progress.
This may be a semantic argument in the sense that if what is meant by agency boils down to something like attention to pragmatic fitting of means to ends, then this argument for agency would be much clearer. And I may be idiosyncratic in how distracted I get worrying that “agency” in the sense the author is using the term here requires an appeal to “free will,” which I believe both ambiguous and unnecessary.
It is the belief that we can make choices and that those choices matter and can be effective, that we can to some significant degree control our lives and shape our future, both as individuals and as a society. The opposite of this is fatalism, the belief that we’re being carried along by forces outside our control and that we don’t have any choices or that they don’t matter.
It is also an ideal or a value, in the sense of believing that it is good for people to have choices and to make them, and that the expansion of choice (again, both for individuals and for society) is a good thing.
I do believe in free will (although I’m less clear on it and less certain about it than I used to be) but I’m not sure that a strong belief in free will is necessary to align with my concept of agency—maybe you could also agree with it under a compatibilist notion of volition.
I’m still mulling this over, but I have come around to the view that you’re right about what you’re calling “agency” not being something that could be removed without disservice to the promotion of progress, and that you’ve got the best way of framing it. If I take your suggestion of viewing “agency” from a more compatibilist point of view—and thanks for this nudge—I find it all far more tractable. I’m a big fan of W.V.O. Quine, and I believe he would have supported your pointing to “agency” as useful in this context. Even if “agency” means not freedom in some metaphysical sense, we have to grant that the removal of constraints on human actions is going to be better rather than worse for human progress.
And I think you have the right rhetorical approach to the question. Talking about freedom as we have for millennia, in the metaphysical sense, is more comprehensible because of how we’re wired.
...but I can’t resist observing that if, in the background, what’s going on is something determined then the actual mechanism for the promotion of progress does seem to collapse into something more like far from equilibrium free energy maximizations, of the sort popular among techno-optimists at the moment. Not for no reason it’s called “compatibilism” I suppose!
Yes, one of my problems with compatibilism is, if determinism is true, then in some sense none of this matters? Like, why bother talking about progress when the entire trajectory of the future is already predetermined and literally nothing will change it?
For some this might be too fine a distinction, but for me understanding ontology has always been important, and I find compatabilism useful for its pragmatic distinction between ontology and any prescriptivist philosophy (like positivism). A compatibilist can accept that we don’t have free will and yet endorse the instrumental value of rhetoric that promotes freedom — what does it matter that under the hood it’s just thermodynamics? One can’t escape the illusion of free will even if and when you believe it is an illusion and try hard to do so. But pragamatism is a common thread running through compatabilist ontology and prescriptivism, and my aesthetic preference (? prejudice? precommitment) is to believing in things that work even when I don’t understand how or why.
So there might very well be a point in talking about progress even if we’re not sure whether or how it would have happened had we never existed.
For comparison, Baltimore City public schools have a budget of $1.7 billion and about 78,000students, or about $21,800 per student (although it’s reported that they only spend $16,370 per student; I’m not sure where the discrepancy comes from). Also note that, in Baltimore City’s budget, they report spending about 1⁄3 of their budget on support services, as opposed to instruction.
most of the time if you look close there is an * on official $/child stats, which excludes buildings, ‘long term’ costs(bond repayments), and cross-government payments(school/district/state resource sharing and budget games).
It is convenient when requesting increased funding from voters to be able to use a 25-35% lower number and pretend that everyone implicitly knows you are excluding all facilities and ‘fixed’ costs ofc :/
recommend skimming your local district’s annual superintendent report sometime. Balance sheet totals/student are a fun one in appreciating property markets ;)
Hi, My name is Sean and I’m just a fan of Roots of Progress. Just wanted to introduce myself. I’m a developer, founder, and I’m am trying to get into writing about agriculture and economics. I don’t see a lot of intro posts so I might get in trouble for posting this. But hi anyway!
Relevance of Management Science to Progress Studies
Two questions for anyone here with an interest in them:
How do people in the progress studies movement view the science of management?
Who else in the group (or the movement) might also interested in this subject, and what kinds of issues or questions seem to be paramount?
By “management” I’m referring to the process of administering and controlling the affairs of the organization, irrespective of its nature, type, and size.
In my experience, the existing educational model often fails to cultivate curiosity and genuine hunger for learning. It teaches us WHAT to learn but falls short on imparting the more significant aspect of HOW to learn. The knowledge available to us now is such a precious gift but is seldom presented as such. This article was a great read! Thank you for penning it.
Another brilliant resource that covers the same topic is this talk from the late Sir Ken Robinson.
Tony, I could take over operations of the group so that at least the progress movement has some meta presence. I agree with you general conclusion though...it’s not a place for nuanced discussion. Message me on Facebook when you get a moment.
“If everyone agreed to become vegetarian, leaving little or nothing for livestock, the present 1.4 billion hectares of arable land (3.5 billion acres) would support about 10 billion people”—EO Wilson
[though limited fishing + hunting of deer/pigeons/waterfowl could be ok]
I like the idea, and the spirit of trying new ideas and forms of government.
That being said, Wikipedia isn’t without its own issues. The editorial hierarchy, like every bureaucracy, becomes rigid, brittle, and ossified over time. The predominant viewpoint becomes entrenched. And so on.
I very much believe that our representative democracy has grave flaws, and that a wiki-based form of direct democracy answers some of them. But how would you keep the system from being games? At some point, someone has to have the power to approve the edits, and the politicking to be that person becomes fiercer the higher the stakes involved.
Important to mention the HHMI funding model, which puts “trust” in PIs/evaluates them as PIs rather than as research proposals.
Also
“The MacArthur grant is a template for what this looks like on a personal level, with a shift in focus from creativity to integrity, and a bump in compensation – $625,000 is a lot of money, but that money is designed to be seed money for an activity rather than financial security. Those getting a MacArthur grant still face the specter of future financial needs. One needs an order of magnitude more than that over a lifetime to be secure while not compromising one’s interactions with society. ”
There’s a long-ish exploration of this in Grand Futures ch. 1 (Details box 7), focusing on long-term projects in general. I’m eliding some footnotes and not linking the citations, for writing speed reasons:
Ongoing projects Numerous examples such as cities (Jericho 9600 BCE and onwards), mathematics and science, land reclamation, irrigation networks, canals, roads, cultivated landscapes, Japanese shrines rebuilt every few decades , etc. The Gunditjmara eel traps at Budj Bim have been maintained and modified for at least 6,700 years [1531]. Waqfs, charitable perpetuities in Islamic countries providing public goods, once owned a significant fraction of land and sometimes lasted centuries [1703]. See section 5.2 for states and 5.3.2 for long-lived organisations.
Cultural practices often value continuation, shading over into gaining value by their antiquity. Numerous monuments work like this. La tombe du soldat inconnu in Paris has been guarded and with a lit eternal flame
since 1920. The Senbon Torii gates of the Fushimi Inari-taisha shrine in Kyoto have been accumulating since the 8th century. [Check this!]
The Uffington White Horse in the UK has been maintained since late prehistoric times (1740-210 BC).
Future-oriented projects These projects have value that compounds over time. Examples include animal and crop breeding. Gardening. Forest planting; of special interest is the Tokugawa era reforestation of Japan [2857] and oak planting for future naval needs (e.g. New Forest 1698- and the Visingsö forest 1830-). Seed banks (e.g. Vavilov seed collection 1921-, Millennium Seed Bank Partnership 1996-, Svalbard Global Seed Vault 2008-) and archives (e.g. Arctic World Archive) aim at preserving information across time for future use or reference. The longitudinal documentary series Up (dir. Paul Almond, Michael Apted) follows the lives of 14 children since 1964 with new episodes every 7 years.
Another compounding category are longitudinal or open-ended studies such as recording astronomical observations, Nile height measures using the Roda gauge (622-1922), the Central England temperature record (data from 1659-; compiled in 1950s), Celsius’ mean sea level mark at Lövgrund (1731-) [878], Rothamsted research station experiments and archives (1843-), the Morrow Plots at University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (1876-), the Beal seed burial experiment (1879-), the Queensland pitch drop experiment (1927-), the Harvard Study of Adult Development (1938-), the Framingham Heart Study (1948-), the Mori dark flies experiment (1954-) [1462], the Keeling CO₂ measurements (1958-), the Belyaev Fox Farm domestication experiment (1959-) [2878], the Cape
Grim Air Archive (1978-), the E. coli long-term evolution experiment (1988-) [2284, 1011].
Long-term endpoint These projects may be divided into accidentally long-term because they take more time than wished for, and deliberately long-term because the only way of achieving the goal is to continue long
enough.
Accidentally long-term endpoints include many projects like the British Channel Tunnel, the Panama Canal or the Olmos Irrigation project have been begun, interrupted, resumed and eventually completed (tunnel first proposed in 1802, final project 1986-1990; canal first proposed 1668, final project 1881-1914; irrigation 1924, final project 2006-2011). 2nd Avenue Subway in New York (proposed 1920, started 1942, second phase expected to open 2027–2029). Cathedral building (e.g. Notre Dame 1163-1345, Milan 1386-1965, Sagrada Familia 1882-).
Thesaurus Linguae Latinae began in 1894, expected to take 20 years: current expectation is completion around 2050. Many other dictionaries are ongoing, like Svenska Akademins Ordbok (begun 1787, as of 2019 having reached late ’V’). Deutsches Wörterbuch was completed in 1838-1961 and Oxford English Dictionary 1857-1928.
The LIGO project began in 1983 and succeeded in 2016, although it had organisational prehistory at least going back to ∼1970 [685, Table C-8, p. 111]. The ITER fusion project began in 1988 and will complete
by 2035-2040. Predator removal in New Zeeland (2015-2050).
These exemplify the intermediate kind of projects that are long-term because they are expected to be hard.
As for more deliberate long-term endpoints, many time capsules [1496] and artworks have clear endpoints.
Framtidsbiblioteket in Oslo is an art project that aims to collect an original work by a popular writer every year from 2014 to 2114, remaining unread and unpublished until 2114 when they will be printed on paper from 1000 Norwegian spruce trees planted in 2014. 100 Years is a film written by John Malkovich and directed by Robert Rodriguez in 2015. Advertised in 2015 it is due to be released on November 18, 2115. The Breakthrough Starshot project aims at launching laser-powered crafts to one or more nearby stars at speeds making them arrive within decades to a century. Benjamin Franklin set up two philanthropic trusts intended to last 200 years 1790-1990; unlike many other charities they survived, although spending was not always according to the formal intentions. Tree Mountain – A Living Time Capsule by Agnes Denes is a land art project started in 1992 and intended to last for 400 years, slowly developing into a primary forest. Play As Slow As Possible by John Cage is being played in the St. Burchardi church in Halberstadt, starting in 2001 and intended to end in 2640. Longplayer by Jem Finer is a 1,000 year composition (1999-2999) being played in London. The Clock of the Long Now aims for 10,000 years of function. Like the other art projects the value lies less in something achieved at this point as the demonstration of a time-spanning project.
There should be some kind of official recognition + prize for people providing public goods on the Internet. There exist prizes for free software and open-source projects, but this does not cover even remotely the amount of intangible value people can deliver on the Internet. Examples include: https://avherald.com, but also a lot of open-source projects. and maybe people like patio11, gwern, Lilian Weng, or Bartosz Ciechanowski. Some YouTubers would also likely qualify, but I’m not very familiar with the medium.
Theory of change: just increase the rate of reminders to people that if they are highly competent and passionate about something not directly marketable, the Internet has made it so that they can easily increase the amount of beauty in the world by making their passion a public project.
Counterargument #2: AI obsoletes creation of cool stuff on the Internet.
Response: on the contrary, in many possible futures (esp. with constraints on agency), AI empowers people to deliver beauty to others, by automating all except the things they are passionate about. Motivation becomes more of a bottleneck.
Also, these types of public goods are some of the things that make me most proud of the current human civilization. I’m sure many here will agree. Even if we lose that in the future, I think it still matters, even as some sort of nod to the things we used to value in the past.
Counterargument #1: it might be better to incentivize people to run actual companies that deliver business value.
Response: there is so much value to be created that is hard to capture via current market structures. There are many people passionate about things that fall into this category.
First of all, thank you for this post. This, at least, it was useful to sit and think a bit about the matter. As I wear the clothes of the Devil’s Advocate, I’d like to do a concurrent post to state why the arguments you put in front were not acceptable (when not actually impossible):
More geniuses
We can state without any doubt that the Earth population incredibly increased in the last decades. All I can experience, especially in the last decades, is the poor quality of the humans (at least, judging from their posts in the social networks). This means: - more recurring grammatical/orthographic errors (people who don’t know even their home country’s language); - people speaking about topics where they’ve got not minimal experience (hence, spreading out ignorance rather than knowledge); - people speaking not to add something to the debate but just on a “clickbait” basis.
And I mentioned only the too evident issues. There are many other issues, some related to the above. To cut a long story short: if you can’t provide people a proper education anywhere (use of the technologies included), you are not increasing the chance of getting geniuses but the chance to widen the ignorance pool where the humanity is going to feed on.
More progress
Total investment. I wish it was so. This is (at least) a naive conception of humanity. I’m going to give you good news and bad news: good news are that the money for such investments already exist; the bad news are that the owners of their money don’t want to spend a single penny for them. So, if you want to get more investment, you have to create politically and economically the reasons for they would find profitable (or more profitable) to do so;
Specialization. Here we go to a previous issue: if you can’t provide people a proper education, you are not creating many more specialized workers but only more people who always have a worse knowledge of the basics of their job (and of the other jobs too, which means always more people wanting to have their say to “actually teach papa to screw”);
Larger markets I’m going to give you the same bad news and good news I gave you before. These markets would actually exist already now, but we’re using them in the wrong manner. Gandhi used to say: “Earth has enough resources to satisfy anybody’s need but not to satisfy anybody’s GREED. If only we could understand (and make it understandable to the right people) the difference between need and greed your hopes would be somehow possible;
More ambitious projects Stop. If you studied Ancient History properly you must know that the way Ancient Egypt took large masses of people to work to these more ambitious projects was force them to do that in SLAVERY. We should have put behind us that word from the Enlightenment Age (which—it is useful to remember—also made a significant contribution to the creation of the United States of America). Are you REALLY sure that you want to turn back the clock of Time to THAT? (not to mention that, in spite of that, still today in the 21st Century we have large portions of Earth where we keep on accepting, socially or politically, slavery).
“In fact, these factors may represent not only opportunities but requirements for progress. There is evidence that simply to maintain a constant rate of exponential economic growth requires exponentially growing investment in R&D. This investment is partly financial capital, but also partly human capital—that is, we need an exponentially growing base of researchers.” - You keep on considering the issue in terms of QUANTITY, forgetting totally the QUALITY, which is what, in your perspective, really makes the difference.
“But in the long run, an exponentially growing base of researchers is impossible without an exponentially growing population. In fact, in some models of economic growth, the long-run growth rate in per-capita GDP is directly proportional to the growth rate of the population.” - What kind of models of economic growth are we talking about? With numbers at hand, in the current models of economic growth that are applied globally from those self-named “civilized countries”, the only growing thing is poverty. In favor of the concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands. Is this your conception of “growth” and “civilization”? All the above is also weakening Earth security. Because the poorer are people, the lesser are valuable their lives. And the lesser are valuable their lives, the easier would be they are going to devote them to criminal projects in exchange of some quid, whatever they may be. Just because they’ve got actually nothing to lose (neither their own life itself).
To cut a long story short, in the current models of economic growth the only thing growing is—with poverty—the manpower of criminal organizations (terroristic ones included, that you state you wanna fight in words but in the end you are feeding in practice).
More options
Better matching for aesthetics, style, and taste.
Better matching to careers.
It’s the same old story: humanity will have more of these if they will be trained to. Otherwise, the only things growing—together with poverty and the manpower of criminal organizations—are Fascisms. There is an increasing list of countries where, foreign people are not only felt as an advantage, but rather a danger (“they come here to feed criminal activities”, “they come here to steal our jobs”, “they come here to steal our women”, etc.). The reason is, from my point of view, quite simple. Let’s say we have a house with three rooms: this house would be comfortable to—let’s say—no more than 3-4 people (one room per person). If you wanna host some more people, you will have to increase the quality of services provided by the house, to compensate that there will be a bit lesser. Because one of the fault of your scheme is that you completely ignore that the Earth resources are limited. You want more people but you didn’t tell us how to feed them, how to water them, how to educate them, in a world that’s already at stake to do that with the current number. So, going on with my metaphor, we’ve got currently the three room house (that—it has to be clear—won’t have any more room, at least in the short term) with about 6 people in it, where 1 person has his/her own room and the other 5 are fighting among them to compete for the remaining 2 rooms. Let’s say that 2 of the 5 people fighting will find an agreement to get another room together in the end (hopefully, in an optimistic perspective). There are still 3 people remaining and fighting to compete for the only room left. And let’s also say that, if in a house there are three people fighting among themselves, cohabitation is not the maximum of happiness even for the other three who are trying to live in peace. And would you want to get in some more people in such a toxic environment? What exciting perspectives of life could you provide them?
Better matching to other people. Even on this side, it’s the same old story. You won’t solve the problem if you increase the number of chances without increasing the quality of chances. I can offer my personal single heterosexual man, if someone can find it useful. What I experienced on my own skin is that our consumerist vision of society has led us to also consider interpersonal relationships as “products”. This means that we no longer want to build and spend on improving a relationship with anyone when, given the huge availability of choices, we can fuck off our partner and take another one with the same nonchalance we have in changing the brand of our washing machine soap. And when you’ve got another partner the game starts again. Women (I talk about them because I’m interested in women, but I guess I can tell the same thing about men) spend their lives collecting dozens of toxic relationships where they always pour on the new partners all the toxicity they have had from the previous ones, charging the righteous for the sinner. And in the end, the only thing left to do is escaping from that hell. The result is that, in the end, neither of them both will believe in a healthy relationship anymore, but they will always think the other as an automatic dispenser of money, favors and sex (if you manage to get to sex). And when they can’t accept the other one has gone away and has the right to have a less toxic relationship, the story often ends with a murder or a suicide, when not with them both. I think this is not the right way to achieve an increasing Earth population. I think the time has come to provide our children with a “sentimental education” before a sexual one. Something that will teach them to respect other people and to treat people as people and things as things, and not people as things and things as people. But it’s very hard to teach to someone something you haven’t learnt for yourself yet. So, before teaching to them, we should start to learn this for us in advance! To cut a long story short again, we have to invest more in the quality of what we’ve got instead of more quantity!
More niche communities.
More niche markets. You will have to build up in advance a world with a social, cultural and economic system that would encourage this. Until then, your project is simply not possible, when not naive or incoherent. Because in the current one, you are doing exactly the opposite.
Network effects and Metcalfe’s law. Value in a network is generated not by nodes but by connections, and the more nodes there are total, the more connections are possible per node. Metcalfe’s law quantifies this: the number of possible connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of nodes.
Metcalfe’s law talks about the number of nodes. You can get all the nodes you want, but if the quality is poor, they’re going to last the twinkling of an eye. And, in the end, the number won’t be exactly what you expected!
A dynamic world
I assume that when Ehrlich and Goodall advocate for much smaller populations, they aren’t literally calling for genocide or hoping for a global catastrophe (although Ehrlich is happy with coercive fertility control programs, and other anti-humanists have expressed hope for “the right virus to come along”). - Nice one to talk about these good ideas. So, if maybe they still have not taken them into consideration (I can’t believe that, but you’ll see...), now they’ll surely do!
A world with a large and growing population is a dynamic world that can create and sustain progress. - I remain with my opinion that, before thinking of a larger population on Earth, we should work on improving the quality of life of those who are still living here, in advance. And there are still loads of things to do just to make it become acceptable. I’d love to change my mind if you’ve got more consistent argumentations than those you already provided in that sense.
Thanks anyway for raising the topic, which is everything but not relevant. Best regards, A.F.
With disintegrating 737s in the news, a lot of people are wondering how things got so bad. I’m here to rewind the clock 100+ years to reassure everyone that the aviation industry has always been beset by challenged business models, bad incentives, and shoddy aircraft.
From the first takeoff in 1903 through the late 1920s, “dual-use” aircraft were merely a promise – there was no commercial aviation market. There was, in fact, barely any U.S. market, and it was the inherent appeal of aviation that attracted both entrepreneurs and capital.1 As nascent markets for passenger transport and airmail transport emerged, so too did the first dual-use application for bombers, accelerating innovation in the early 1930s. Fighters did not lend themselves as nicely to commercial applications, and absent a procurement strategy and meaningful expenditures from either the Army or the Navy, U.S. fighters at the time of Pearl Harbor were inferior to their German and Japanese counterparts.
The mythos surrounding the Wright Brothers, Charles Lindberg, and successful mass production during WWII belies the reality of a pre-WWII aviation industry plagued by poor policies and dysfunctional relations between the government and manufacturers. The Army and Navy remained tepid – often hostile – buyers right up until the outbreak of WWII, and in partnership with Congress, they managed to inflict maximum abuse on manufacturers. During the interwar years, industry subsidized the military for both the development and production of aircraft, losing lots of money along the way. In return, manufacturers were deprived of their intellectual property rights and accused of graft and wartime profiteering. Acquisition law was so punitive towards aircraft manufacturers as late as 1939 that firms were convinced it was a conspiracy led by the automotive industry. It wasn’t.
Early on, there were some Cassandras: “In 1919 Secretary of War Baker called for a long term procurement program for military aircraft and warned Congress that “it cannot be expected that industry will long engage in an unremunerative line,” but he underestimated the aircraft manufacturers for whom the industry’s appeal defied rational calculation (The Politics of Aircraft, pg 45).”2 Indeed, the optimism-cum-masochism of early aviation entrepreneurs (e.g., Douglas, Grumman, Martin, etc.) enabled bad policy to persist.
The military-industrial complex as we know it did not exist prior to WWII, yet this period serves as a reflecting pool for the best and worst attributes of our modern defense industry.
Pre-WWI and WWI
During the first decade of the twentieth century, the U.S. led the world in heavier-than-air aircraft. We ceded this early lead to Europe in part because of patent disputes between the Wrights and Curtiss and in part because of late entry into WWI. However, even before the outbreak of war, Europe showed a much greater interest in the military utility of aviation. From 1909-1911, the U.S. Army owned one military aircraft. In comparison, France owned over 250 planes by 1912. By the time the U.S. entered the war, its domestic aircraft industry was so far behind that of its peers that the U.S. almost exclusively used foreign combat aircraft of French or British design, with the American Expeditionary Force flying the French SPAD. (The U.S. Combat Aircraft Industry, 1909-2000).
The first true test of U.S. industry-government relations was an abject failure. In 1917, Congress passed a Hail Mary, $640 million “Aero Bill,” which at the time was the largest congressional appropriation ever.3 Industry was meant to fulfill the government’s vision of mass production of aircraft, but aircraft of the era were truly “crafts” made of wood and fabric and not ready for the assembly line. This problem was exacerbated by the decision to have industry manufacture foreign designs, as there were no cutting-edge American combat designs ready for mass production.
Building a foreign fighter and retooling a factory around it proved too challenging. The U.S. licensed the SPAD design from France and contracted Curtiss Aeroplane to manufacture it, but the firm was wholly unequipped to produce the thousands of fighters expected and nearly went bankrupt trying to do so. Its early units of SPADs were immediately declared “worse than useless,” and the Army Signal Corp told Curtiss to produce the British Bristol instead. But when Curtiss failed to produce a light enough version of the Bristol, it was back to the SPAD – this time, a new variant (The Politics of Aircraft, pgs 33-36).
Glenn L. Martin refused to commit to unreasonable production expectations, explaining it was only possible for his firm to manufacture three planes a day. He was blacklisted from the war effort until summer 1918 when the Army had him build prototypes of his excellent MB-1 bomber.
At the end of the war, the government did not receive anywhere near the value of aircraft for the money spent. Rather than consider that high technology aircraft were incompatible with mass production under the conditions, President Wilson, Congress, the media, and much of the War Department concluded the failed effort was a big business conspiracy to raid the wartime coffers of the government. It was the last time the industry operated largely unregulated.
The Interwar Years: The Myth of the Fungible Engineer
After WWI, the government decided it would no longer license foreign designs, but it did not learn any lessons about the difficulty of having one firm produce a different firm’s plane. In the interwar years, the root cause of industry’s struggles was the government’s decision to separate design contracts from production contracts.4 Ostensibly, this was to ensure there was competition at every phase of the acquisition, ensuring the best deal for Uncle Sam. In reality, the attempts to cleave R&D from production were disastrous for all parties. Here is how the process worked:
Firms would respond to government specifications with their paper designs and the estimated cost to build the prototype. The government would select two to four firms to build a prototype and have a fly-off. The government then acquired the design rights to the winning firm’s prototype. Firms consistently lost money on prototyping in the hope of making a profit on the production contract – provided they could win it, that is.
The government then held a separate competition to determine which firm(s) would produce the winner’s prototype. Production competitions were almost solely based on price. This meant the firm who had the winning prototype was at a huge disadvantage because it needed to amortize its design costs, so its production bid inevitably came in higher. The firm that won the contract for production received just the winner’s prototype and had to reverse engineer the blueprints; although as we will see, having the blueprints would have been of little use.
The government treated aircraft as standardized goods to be manufactured, but aircraft were not widgets. This decision to hold pure-price manufacturing competitions resulted in manufacturing failures that make Boeing’s recent plane window blowout look positively quaint (emphasis mine):
1) Martin sold his aforementioned excellent MB-1 prototype bomber to the Army at a loss. “In 1919 [he] was underbid by three contractors on the bomber’s production. Martin was given twenty to build anyway but lost money on the reduced volume, suspended the bomber’s development, and in disgust, declined to deal with the army until 1931. L.W.F. Engineering built fifty, Aeromarine built twenty-five, and Curtiss built fifty. The bombers in the field proved to be completely different airplanes of widely varying quality (The Politics of Aircraft, pg 59).”
2) “In 1923 Curtiss lost $182,000 on a $175,000 development contract for the successful navy Curtiss Scout …In the competition to build 40 Scouts, Curtiss submitted a bid of $32,000 per plane, but Glenn Martin won the contract at $23,000 apiece. Martin complained that the plane came with no blueprints but admitted that they would have been useless in his shop anyway. His staff drew up new blueprints and in the process produced anentirely new plane inferior in performanceto the Curtiss design(The Politics of Aircraft, pg 62).”
3) In 1919, the Ordnance Engineering Company developed Orenco-D, “the best pursuit in that day,” but Curtiss won production for 50 of the planes. “Ordnance Engineering liquidated; and the fifty planes built by Curtisshad to be destroyed as unsafe(The Politics of Aircraft, pg 59).”
4) “The demise of Thomas-Morse, the designer of a reasonably successful indigenous fighter design (based on the French SPAD), can be directly traced to the award of the production contract in 1921 to Boeing, which had little ability to design an advanced fighter but which underbid Morse on the production contract.”
And so the myth of the fungible engineer was born.
The myth holds that any worker is the same as any worker, and any production line is the same as any other production line. It’s a fundamentally un-American concept and reveals a captured, collectivist mindset. The belief that the sum total of innovation could be captured in a prototype or blueprint rather than in a network of humans doing exceptional things was demonstrably false. It didn’t matter that the government owned the most innovative aircraft designs – absent the designers, the prototypes were unlikely to be faithfully manufactured at scale.
It’s hard to overstate how damaging the myth of the fungible engineer is in a dynamic industry undergoing rapid technological change. With aircraft, a prototype was almost immediately rendered obsolete upon selection. Had the firm with the winning design been the one to manufacture it, it would have been able to incorporate new innovations during the manufacturing process. But the firm most able to manufacture the winning prototype was the least likely to win. The implications for innovation are clear: Firms were incentivized to keep a bare-bones design staff to minimize R&D expense, since there was no money to be made in designing the most innovative airplane.
To quoteFreedom’s Forge author Arthur Herman, “it’s through making things that we learn what can be made better, which is why the most productive companies also tend to be the most innovative.” In what appears to be an oxymoron, aircraft manufacturers were deprived of the opportunity to manufacture their aircraft. And because aviation is a relatively low volume industry, missing out on the limited military production orders of the interwar years had a high opportunity cost. As
If you’ve produced 1,000,000 of something, whether you make another 500 or 5,000 will make almost no difference in learning curve terms. But if you’ve only made 50 of something, making another 500 makes a huge difference in the level of cost reduction that can be achieved. Thus, if you only plan to sell a few hundred of something, a relatively small number of sales will have a large impact on how efficiently you’re producing and how profitable you are.
Separately competing design from production was a short-sighted acquisition strategy, although the taxpayer temporarily got a great deal. The government was paying less than the full cost for a prototype, and then it paid less than the full cost for production. Industry was subsidizing the government! But it was unsustainable for industry to operate unprofitably, and more importantly, it resulted in the warfighter getting a bad product. Note how the health of industry and national security share an intimate relationship.
Not everyone had blinders on. The legendary U.S. Navy Admiral Moffett, then director of the Bureau of Aeronautics and credited with introducing the aircraft carrier, believed “the distinction between design and production was meaningless and an obstacle to procurement” and “procurement laws dishonored the government.” Although price competition on manufacturing orders was the default, there were some loopholes that allowed for “negotiated contracts,” where a contracting officer (CO) could award the manufacturing contract to the firm with the winning prototype without a full competition. Moffett pushed for the use of negotiated contracts whenever possible, but extreme risk aversion from COs prevented them from being used with any regularity (The Politics of Aircraft, pg 86).
This piece is supposed to be focused on the origin story of the myth of the fungible engineer, but I can’t help but do a quick diversion on the origin story of the CYA, risk-averse, CO. Many will read the above manufacturing failures and ask how it’s possible that the COs – faced with such incontrovertible proof – would still pursue price competition over negotiated contracts. Were they simply useful idiots?
A closer examination of incentive structure reveals they were just acting rationally. Congressional scrutiny, allegations of wartime fraud, charges of favoritism or collusion, and an extra-long contract review process loomed large for the CO who went with the negotiated contract. It was much easier to pick the firm that could do it the cheapest – actually receiving the plane purchased was of secondary concern.
Things haven’t changed much, and we continue to encourage COs to adhere to process at the expense of outcome. As Pete Modigliani and Matt MacGregorwrite in their recent summary of the DoD Inspector General’s Audit of Cost-Plus-Award-Fee Contracts:
To conclude, in reviewing $32B of contracts, COs regularly did not follow policies, but still effectively managed the contracts for most of them, with a 0.015% of improper payments not fully justified in the contract files. As a result, DoD IG recommends increased oversight and controls. And people wonder why many COs are risk averse.
The Fungible Engineer is Alive and [Un]Well
I wish we could say we learned from this chapter in history, but the myth of the fungible engineer is the central tenet in acquisition today. We see it manifested in two ways. First, the government largely acquires software with a labor-based, butts-in-seats model that does not account for individual exceptionalism. From Trae Stephens still-relevant 2016 piece“Innovation Deficit: Why DC is Losing Silicon Valley”
The average Request for Proposal (RFP) involving software development services requires estimates on count of full-time equivalents (FTEs) who will be engaged in the effort, a “basis of estimate” (BOE) modeling FTEs, their labor categories, and the FTE blend deployed against RFP requirements and delivery dates (e.g. requirement “x” needs 2.5 engineers for 6 months to complete). This process massively disadvantages efficient and more talented teams. Because the talent gap between average and excellent is so large, it would generally be better to have one Lebron-level coder than to have 100 average ones.
Second, the government continues to equate ownership of source code, diagrams, and prototypes with innovation – once again, not realizing it is the networked people surrounding these artifacts that breathe life into them. While it is no longer an option for Boeing to bid on the production of Lockheed’s fighter, the pre-WWII mindset around the value of owning atoms has extended to owning bits. A recent report from the United States Geospatial Intelligence Foundation (USGIF) enumerates in meticulous detail different solicitations from the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) effectively boxing out commercial software by requiring aggressive ownership of IP – and these examples are just from a single government agency.5
Running and maintaining a software system is much closer to producing an aircraft at scale than it is to designing and delivering a prototype for a fly-off. Despite its proliferation of software factories, the government still has not internalized this point. For a thought experiment: if the government acquired the code base of OpenAI and turned it over to [insert favorite Systems Integrator], do you think said Systems Integrator would continue on OpenAI’s trajectory of building a next generation AI company? Relatedly, as any entrepreneur raising venture capital money for his/her startup will tell you, leading your pitch with a list of patents is not a winning strategy.
One final point. Right after WWII, there was a race by the Allies to seize as much knowledge from the Germans as possible. America’s “acquisition” of one Werner von Braun via Operation Paperclip was by far the most successful of these technology transfers. But America and the UK also pursued an expensive strategy of microfilming and translating millions of documents, which was not successful. France, who didn’t have the resources or political capital to pursue this strategy, instead embedded trainees into German research centers, maintaining the intangible value of a scientist’s network. This people-centric strategy was very successful for the French at a fraction of the cost.6
America has a deep bench of Founding Fathers and entrepreneurs we celebrate. China only has Mao, maybe Xi. They had to disappear Jack Ma because the CCP does not accommodate outliers. Our acquisition system should reject the myth of the fungible engineer and instead reflect the time-honored American tradition of elevating the individual over the collective.
I’m only comfortable with more humans if we make serious efforts to increase the percent of vegans/vegetarians, or reduce the amount of meat needed by human, given how wasteful meat is to land use.
[limited hunting of deer/pigeons/waterfowl could be ok, but people would still need to eat way less meat than they do now]
maybe, just maybe, cultured meat will come just enough time to save us. But the probability range of this is still too high for comfort.
I very strongly believe any pro-fertility incentives must be coupled with incentives to decrease meat consumption/increase vegetarianism (or increase % of power from nuclear, given that excess solar energy will also destroy habitat).
EO Wilson once advocated that 50% of the world is set aside for wilderness. Maybe that’s a bit too ambitious, but I think 35% would be good enough to preserve enough biodiversity. Taiwan/Hong Kong/Japan are all densely populated and have roughly that % of wilderness/forest (they also rely a lot on seafood, which does not destroy wilderness , but is still inherently a limited resource given overfishing). People get huge health/happiness benefits from nature exposure too, esp when the nature is close to where they live
“If everyone agreed to become vegetarian, leaving little or nothing for livestock, the present 1.4 billion hectares of arable land (3.5 billion acres) would support about 10 billion people”—EO Wilson
This is a brilliant article. My father used to work at IBM ARC back in the 1990s, and you’re describing how things worked there, during a period in which numerous Nobels were earned working within a corporation.
The jack-of-all-trades approach to being a PI was also part of what drove me personally out of a Ph.D. program and into industry. I didn’t want to be a solo entrepreneur constantly writing grants for peanuts. The most attractive jobs to me back then (early 2000s) seemed to be the government lab jobs that had no teaching responsibilities, and relatively less pressure to raise grant funding constantly.
We need to encourage more divisions of labor in the practice of scientific research. This is a great diagnosis of some of the fundamental problems of our current system. Kudos, Jason!
I don’t fault you for not mentioning it because it’s definitely more speculative. But as a voiceover I would add to this pitch for block funding the observation that in many cases, getting a large enough group together seems to lead to a critical mass, whereby new ideas start to fission off of each other. I think we’re seeing something like that now at the Flatiron institute, and probably because they’re doing many of things you’ve prescribed.
Great discussion and examples. I often struggle to explain why bad business fails without regulators but is propped up by them far too often. This was a helpful article on the topic and your ideas are valuable. Keep writing!
>Throughout history, fearmongering has been used to justify a lot of extreme measures.
And throughout history, people have dismissed real risks and been caught with their pants down. What, in 2018 or Feb 2020 would appear to be pretty extreme measures at pandemic prevention would make total sense from our point of view.
Countries can and do spend a huge pile of money to defend themselves from various things. Including huge militaries to defend themselves from invasion etc.
All sorts of technologies come with various safety measures.
>For a more concrete example, one could draw the possibility that video games might cause the players to emulate behaviors, even though you have to be insane to believe the video games are real, to then start advocating for bans of violent video games. However, one could go a step further and say that building games could also make people believe that it’s easy to build things, leading to people building unsafe houses, and what about farming games, or movies, or books?
If you are unable to distinguish the arguments for AI risk from this kind of rubbish, that suggests either you are unable to evaluate argument plausibility, or you are reading a bunch of strawman arguments for AI risk.
>The community wants you to believe in a very pessimistic version of the world where all the alignment ideas don’t work, and AI may suddenly be dangerous at any time even when their behaviors look good and they’re constantly reward for their good behaviors?
I do not know of any specific existing alignment protocol that I am convinced will work.
And again, if the reward button is pressed every time the AI does nice things, there is no selection pressure one way or the other between an AI that wants nice things, and one that wants to press the reward button. The way these “rewards” in ML work is similar to selection pressure in evolution. And humans were selected on to enjoy sex so they produced more babies, and then invented contraception. And this problem has been observed in toy AI problems too.
This isn’t to say that there is no solution. Just that we haven’t yet found a solution.
>The AI alignment difficulty lies somewhere on a spectrum, yet they insist to base the policy on the idea that AI alignment lies somewhere in a narrow band of spectrum that somehow the pessimistic ideas are true, yet we can somehow align the AI anyway, instead of just accepting that humanity’s second best alternative to survival is to build something that will survive and thrive, even if we won’t?
We know alignment isn’t super easy, because we haven’t succeeded yet. We don’t really know how hard it is.
Maybe it’s hopelessly hard. But if your giving up on humanity before you spend 10% of GDP on the problem, your doing something very wrong.
Think of a world where aliens invaded, and the government kind of took a few pot shots at them with a machine gun, and then gave up. After all, the aliens will survive and thrive even if we don’t. And mass mobilization, shifting to a wartime economy… those are extreme measures.
>Invader countries have to defend their conquests and hackers need to have strong information security.
One place where offense went way ahead of defense is with nukes.
However nukes are sufficiently hard to make that only a few big powers have them. Hence balance of power MAD.
If destruction is easy enough, someone will do it.
In the war example, as weapon lethality went up, the fighters moved further apart. So long as both sides have similar weapons and tactics, there exists some range at which you aren’t so close as to be instakilled, nor are you so far as to have no hope of attacking. This balance doesn’t apply to civilian casualties.
Research oriented government agencies already sometimes give grants to private organizations (corporations, typically) for largish chunks of work—climate tech startups get nontrivial amounts of project funding from organizations like NRECA for example. Do these grants work better than grants to PIs? That seems worth finding out. Similar, though less research oriented, is the phenomenon of “Beltway bandit” companies whose revenue comes mostly from defense contracts—I suspect that for better or worse, the incentive structure faced by grant seeking labs in your proposed model would come to resemble these.
The thing is, we have many options that aren’t just accelerating or decelerating the whole thing. Like we can choose gain of function research and cutting edge AI capabilities, and accelerate everything except that.
Science is lots of different pieces, differential technological development.
“25% probability that the domain experts are right x 50% chance that it’s not too late for science to affect the onset of the time of perils x 50% chance that science cannot accelerate us to safety = 6.25%”
This smells of the “multistage fallacy”
You think of something. List a long list of “nesscessary steps”. Estimate middling probabilities for each step. And multiply them together for a small end stage probability.
The problem is, often some of the steps, or all of them, turn out to not be that necessary. And often, if a step had actually happened, it would do so in a way that gave you strong new information about the likelihood of other steps.
Ie if a new device needs 100 new components to be invented, and you naively assume the probability is 50⁄50 for each component. But then a massive load of R&D money gets sent towards making the device, and all 100 components are made.
In this particular case, you are assuming a 25% chance the domain experts are right about the level of X-risk. In the remaining 75%, apparently X risk is negligable. There is no possibility for “actually it’s way way worse than the domain experts predicted”.
“x 50% chance that it’s not too late for science to affect the onset of the time of perils x 50% chance that science cannot accelerate us to safety ”
If the form of the peril is a step. Say a single moment when the first ASI is turned on, then “accelerate to safety” is meaningless. You can’t make the process less risky by rushing through the risky period faster. You can’t make Russian roulette safer by playing it real fast, thus only being at risk for a short time.
Marvelous article! Correlates with my readings in Pinker, Rosling, and the authors (sorry, I don’t have their names, but they have done their homework) of the book “Superabundance.”
Bravo!
I don’t think I have a single criticism...paradigm changing writing. And I have indeed have had a paradigm change over the last few decades, from “Club of Rome “Limits to Growth” and Paul Erlich to graduate to the Abundance mentality of Pinker, Diamandes, and Hans Rosling.
This channel is doing important work in my opinion, as even most progressives and intellectuals are leery of growth as a virtue.
Thank you for the comment and words of encouragement. The work the progress studies movement is doing is important and something a lot more people need to hear and internalize
It isn’t clear that the offense-defense balance directly affects the number of deaths in a conflict in the way that you claim. For example, machine guns nests benefitted the defenders significantly, but could quite easily have resulted in there being more deaths in warfare, due to the use of tactics that hadn’t yet accounted for them.
If you had told people in the 1970s that in 2020 terrorist groups and lone psychopaths could access more computing power than IBM had ever produced at the time from their pocket, what would they have predicted about the offense defense balance of cybersecurity?
I don’t know why you’d think that compute would be the limiting factor here. Absent AI, there are limited ways in which to deploy more compute.
Interesting, well-researched article, IMO. The one component that may make the article more relevant has to do with digital Intellectual Property, which may or may not be the same as patentable ideas. While it seems obvious to me that IP is still property, my nephew, a self-avowed hacker, once said to me of his unabashedly stealing IP “The failure of these business models is not my problem.” Which I thought at the time and still think is a moral/ethical lapse of good judgement. Is stealing work product like or exactly like patent infringement? “Informations wants to be free!” is a rallying cry, but lacks nuance. Anyway, great article, thank you!
Digital IP is kind of interesting because IP is a creature of Congress. It isn’t like real property where there is a common law basis for it exactly (though many parts of the doctrine come from common law, like fair use). So basically it is up to Congress to determine what the right social mix is. With digital IP clearly there are some things that should remain IP and that doesn’t change just because the form changes (like stealing a movie) but there are aspects where the ease of replication may cause us to want to change the balance of some of these rights. It comes up more in copyright than in patents. (Larry Lessig has a great talk on “remix culture” and the ways in which laws might evolve to accommodate new art forms.) Thanks for reading!
Brilliant and clever summaries of really exciting projects, mostly in the conceptual phases, but still adjacent to current capabilities given appropriate attention and funding!
I wonder if another avenue might be to permit partial retirement via allowing people to draw a prorated share of their Social Security to subsidize remaining with a current employer but perhaps in a part-time role. Currently, there are very strict income limits for those who draw SS before full retirement age (67 years old for my generation). With the growing dearth of young people and labor-force participation stuck in the doldrums, we need to find ways to keep the older yet very productive people—in the first half of their 60s in particular—engaged. It would be good for society, the economy and for individual well-being.
Lovely, fact-based, paradigm shifting article. Bravo! 40 years ago, in college and grad school, my heroes were the “Club of Rome” and others calling for “simple living, high-thinking”. I realize now just how short-sighted, blazingly wrong I was. I wish Paul Erlich and most articles in “Free Inquiry” would have a similar epiphany!Rudi Hoffman, Port Orange, FL
Thanks a lot, and so admirable that you now admit having been “blazingly wrong”! Perhaps I should’ve described my own double epiphany in the article: initially I was vey much influenced by my mentor Etienne Vermeersch (whom I mention in the essay), who was a disciple of Paul Ehrlich and the Club of Rome. I thought overpopulation was the root of all environmental problems. The, reading books by Hans Rosling, Charles Mann and others, I became convinced that fears about “population bombs” and overpopulation were outdated and that population growth peaked in the 60s already and has trended inexorably downward ever since. But then I still assumed this should be a source of relief (“Phew, the mass starvation has been averted!”) and that it was good news for the planet as well. But then, after reading Empty Planet: The Shock of Global Population Decline, a book by two Canadians, as well as economists like Tyler Cowen and Patrick Collison about the “Great Stagnation”, I became convinced that population shrinkage is not good news at all, not even for the nature.
This idea makes a lot of sense, after you’ve decoupled health from age to a much greater degree than today. However, at that point I think the better idea would be “There is no longer a compelling reason for retirement or long gaps between jobs to be a matter of public expense at all, unless you’re doing it for some set of purposes the public cares about.” I think we need to normalize the idea of years-long gaps on resumes, among other things. But I don’t feel compelled to share the expense of different people’s career paths and life choices.
The reason we originally set the retirement age approximately equal to the average lifespan was to ease the burden on people planning for their own futures, so that no one had to suffer for living longer than they’d expected. The fact that we now live many years in relatively poor health near the end of our lives is a very different situation. and we’ve adapted the policy tool we had to try to cover it. The idea of retirement as a long vacation or reward for having worked 40 years is an anomaly. In the near term, we shouldn’t force people to work when they’re not able to, regardless of age, but we also maybe shouldn’t be paying living costs just because someone hits a certain age. Protests and strikes aside, I think a better solution would be to eliminate age-based pensions, and greatly expand disability-related and poverty-related social security programs to the point that everyone who outlives their ability to support themselves is still covered. If you like, phase it in gradually over the next 30 years so that anyone not near the beginning of their careers doesn’t have to worry about it. I realize this would still be a political firestorm, of course, but as noted, this is a scenario where every available option is considered unacceptable to large swaths of the population.
Wonderful summary of the history and analysis of the economic advantages and disadvantages to a patent system. I’m a patent lawyer who has been worrying about the question of whether patents promote progress for a couple of decades. https://www.symmetrybroken.com/whats-wrong-with-the-patent-system/
Their observation is that a combination of free entry into political and economic competition has enabled adaptive efficiency, and hence promoted progress, in what they call open access societies.
Patents and corporations both began as royal prérogatives. The Venetian Patent Act is a historical anachronism, representing one of the first (if not the first) open access orders in human history. But it was circumscribed in geography (but not necessarily temporally!). NWW might say that Venetian patents opened access to Venetian markets for foreigners and non-elites who had improvements to the state of the art.
But more generally in view of NWW, I believe the question to ask is whether a given patent is necessary to formation of a corporation or not. Patents as a system of insurance (think third party debt collection for investors) is less appealing, although probably not as socially costly as critics of NPEs would have it. And note that some would distinguish between NPEs and PAEs (patent assertion entites) because universities, government labs, and others never intend to practice what they patent but also don’t rely upon litigation and licensing as their primary source of revenue.
“As Simon Rifkind, the Co-Chairman of the 1967 United States President’s Commission on the Patent put it, ‘the patent system is more essential to getting together the risk capital which it required to exploit and to develop and to apply the contributions of the genius inventor than to provide a stimulus for the actual mental contribution’”
Nothing has changed in over 50 years in this regard. The best reason to file a patent is because without one nobody reasonable is going to feel comfortable investing. But what fields remain in which this is true except for those in which regulatory approval is required before revenue?
“The question, then, is whether patents are associated (1) with more inventing activity overall, and (2) with more productive uses of the inventions once they are invented. In economic terms, we are more looking for evidence that patents facilitate capital formation and technology diffusion, both of which are well-studied and associated with economic growth.”
The evidence for multiple inventions is devastating to the case that patents are required for (1).
NWW have the right framework for analyzing (2), which is directly relevant to the first part of the economic terms you identify. The second part (diffusion) is more subtle, but best understood (I believe) through comparisons to alternative institutions of open source licensing and trade secret torts. Patents look favorable relative to trade secrets in many cases, but not to open source licensing in most.
The overarching theme seems to be what do we need the get people to work together toward bringing some technical dream to market after it has been demonstrated as possible by scientists? In the case of drugs or medical therapy, there’s no question that exclusive rights are required to attract capital. In the case of software, it’s less clear, and the dead weight costs of the system look more dubious.
Thanks again for the wonderful summary of a complex and nuanced question.
These are all great points. But I have to say I don’t agree that the question is whether patents are required for the formation of a corporation because that excludes a lot of R&D that might be done by an existing corporation. Maybe the best way to put it is whether it increases the share of R&D invested in science and technology. These are all so tricky to measure; “invention” is abstract, but R&D includes, for example, buying servers.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think that the evidence of multiple inventions is devastating for capital formation around inventions. The question is whether it increases invention overall, for example in helping companies attract financing or just providing more capital (for example, through licensing) to do other things. The evidence there is in favor of patents, but of course, to some extent capital formation bleeds into technology diffusion. For example, some of the papers I talk about show how patents help startups attract VC, get higher sales, and get exits more often. Is that evidence of attracting capital, or is that a longitudinal piece of evidence that the technology got more widely diffused? And how does that relate to the counter-factual of whether this increased the amount of invention? To me it’s clear that inventors invent because that’s who they are. Patents would help facilitate invention by helping inventors attract more resources to invent in the first place. (The result could be negative if the blocking rights become too severe of course!)
One last thing, I completely agree with you on the difference between NPEs and PAEs. On top of universities et al, I’d also add R&D companies that monetize through patent licensing, like ARM.
Just found this tidbit in the biography of the first patent commissioner Henry Ellsworth:
“Acting as Patent Commissioner, Ellsworth made a decision that profoundly affected the future of Hartford and Connecticut. The young Samuel Colt was struggling to establish a firm to manufacture his new revolver. Ellsworth became interested in Colt’s invention, and in 1836 made the decision to issue Colt U.S. Patent No. 138. On the basis of Ellsworth’s decision, Colt was able to raise some $200,000 from investors to incorporate the Patent Arms Manufacturing Company of Paterson, New Jersey, the forerunner of the mighty Colt arms manufacturing empire.”
We may have a legit disagreement about the role of patents in supporting the funding of at least certain types of R&D. The Bayh-Dole Act appears to have created a comparative advantage for universities and government labs in funding R&D. Is that the best model? There are reasonable arguments that it is not. But so long as universities and government labs have tech transfer offices, I’m dubious about curiosity driven R&D getting funded by for-profit corporations. Anyway the US market doesn’t appear to support it the way it did before the 1980s. But if you believe startups are doing curiosity driven research, then we’re talking about different things. For me, curiosity driven research is literally curiosity driven with no obvious expectation of commercial use. I don’t believe patents are either necessary or sufficient to funding this kind of research, which is sometimes called basic science.
I was exaggerating the weight of the evidence of multiple inventions a little in arguing against the need for patents to support scientific discoveries, but not much. I note that even in responding to this point, you reach for the desire to “help[] companies attract financing or just providing more capital” as beneficial. But that’s where we agree patents and licensing are socially beneficial. The question is whether they’re necessary or beneficial to get to the point where attracting capital makes sense. I’m arguing no because the history of science and engineering demonstrates that fundamental breakthroughs are not predictable enough to be funded commercially. AT&T and IBM were able to do it because they were monopolies at a scale that hasn’t been replicated since then.
So we agree that inventors invent because that’s who they are. We both want to ensure we have inventors, and that they get compensated well enough to ensure we get the benefit of their work.
But who are these inventors? Are they scientists who we also want to teach and publish their discoveries? Are they engineers building the next great platform for human society to grow? If the former, why wouldn’t government grants be sufficient? If the latter, why not venture capital? That seems like the right way to frame the potential disagreement here.
In the end, there just aren’t many actual people who fit anywhere between these two archetypes. I actually have met a few of them, but they are exceptionally rare. And I don’t know that we need to modify the institutions we have today to encourage more to follow in their footsteps. Maybe. But from where I sit today, I feel safer saying patents are best for society when used only as a mechanism for attracting capital to a venture capital startup or other for-profit corporation.
I love the work you’re doing. I believe there are dysfunctions in the way curiosity-driven academic research gets funded that have and will continue to have major implications for technological progress and economic development. I’m also sympathetic to the sketch of possible reforms. Increasing competition and closing feedback loops on the performance of funding decisions would likely produce tangible benefits.
What I’m wondering about more these days is how things work at the micro level. In my experience, there is a very clear and observable difference between the kinds of researchers who are driven by curiosity and the kinds of researchers who are driven by a desire to see their work have a tangible impact on the world during their lifetime. VC funding has done plenty for the latter. How can we encourage and help the former?
There is probably a baseline level of curiosity driven research that will happen no matter what we do. There always has been. Many of the people who do curiosity driven research do it despite having to make huge personal sacrifices. Mostly what we need to do for them is keep other people out of their way.
But people are people, and very few can live as hermits forever. I believe that in many cases, the curiosity driven research accelerates as the curiosity-driven researchers find a community of kindred spirits in which they can share their ideas freely. When fear of being scooped and losing funding is replaced by a infinite, positive-sum game of seeing who can come up with the coolest new theories or results, the work tends to accelerate and multiply in a combinatorial way.
Where are those physical environments today? Bell Labs had one. IBM ARC had one. I feel like the Flatiron Institute has one. Where else?
In the end, funding is only part of the answer here.
Curiosity is already a very strong motivator, we just need to enable it and get out of the way. Give scientists funding without making them narrowly constrain their goals, dial down their ambition, or spend half their time writing grants. Then give them the research freedom to pursue that curiosity wherever it leads. It’s not easy but it is pretty simple.
I agree with that. But having seen IBM ARC up close in person in the 1990s, my gut is that there is some critical mass of curiosity—a threshold number of curious researchers all working in the same place—that leads to a kind of magic you don’t see when the same people are more distributed geographically.
I’d add that Polanyi worried about the question of the integrity of the fabric of scientific knowledge. That is, he asked what was the ultimate source of a geologist’s or a layperson’s confidence that the state of the art knowledge in say — x-ray crystallography — had integrity. His concern was that, in science there was nothing analogous to the function of arbitrating prices in markets and between markets to ‘keep people honest’ in their valuations.
His answer was what he called his ’theory of overlapping neighbourhoods”. It was “held by a multitude of individuals” connected in a fiduciary network, “each of whom endorses the other’s opinion at second hand, by relying on the consensual chains which link him to all the others through a sequence of overlapping neighborhoods”. Polanyi would have appreciated businessman Charlie Munger’s claim that “the highest form a civilization can reach is a seamless web of deserved trust”.
We can apply an analogous process of relying more on those with a good record of shorter term prediction in making longer term predictions.
Section 6 of this report discusses the way in which one might ‘bootstrap’ longer-term vision by using shorter term forecasting performance as one criterion for determining longer-term forecasting prowess — together with deliberation on determining shorter run expectations that can be used to test the progress of longer term projects.
Though I don’t think he’s cited (his contribution is in noting the need for such a thing rather than identifying it — because that is pretty obvious), this builds on Polanyi’s overlapping neighbourhoods idea.
Thanks for the post Jason. Most or all the mechanisms proposed tend to assume that people are self-interested rather than a mix of self-and-other interest. They play to Hobbesian not Aristotelian stereotypes of the way we are. The scientist turned philosopher Michael Polanyi would argue that many of these functions have powerful ethical dimensions and I’d argue that the structures we’ve put in place, in appealing to self-interest tend to crowd out more ethical motivations. Bureaucracies breed careerism. So I’d want to introduce more randomisation and other kinds of mechanisms to minimise the extent to which the accountability mechanisms we set up don’t just produce more accountability theatre. There are also ways of selecting for merit that don’t involve people performing for their superiors in an organisation. Thus the republic of Venice used the mechanism of the Brevia by which a sub-group of the 2,000+ strong population with political power were chosen by lottery. They then convened behind closed doors and then had a secret ballot. The idea was to insulate the merit selection process from favours to power. It seems to have worked a charm helping Venice to be the only city state in Italy that got through the 500 years from the beginning of the 13th century without any successful coups or civil wars.
Hmm, I don’t agree with how you are characterizing my assumptions about human nature. I’m not assuming that scientists are after money or prestige. I assume most of them, or at least the best of them, are motivated by curiosity, the desire to discover and to know, and the value of scientific knowledge for humanity.
Re accountability, I frankly think we could do with a bit less of it. Accountability is always in tension with research freedom.
Re people performing for their superiors: I actually think scientists performing for their managers would be a much healthier model than what we have today, which is scientists performing for their grant committees. I have another piece on this that I plan to publish soon.
I generally disagree with some of the premise, but I do think it’s interesting. Taking advantage of one’s health and youth while one has it seems tempting.
On the other hand, worker productivity presumably goes down pretty fast once the worker in question is in their 60s-70s, just because they’re getting older, so there may not be anyone who wants to employ them.
You’ve also got the issue that social security benefits do somewhat depend on how much someone earned in their life (I believe, I’m no expert) - so what would be the benefit someone takes in their 30th year?
Yes, well maybe we will also expand our healthspan, or have AI to help us with worker productivity? 🤓
The case I make is for social security is a blend between Singapore’s system and our current 401k system. The employer contributes 20% of their salary to their 401k and their employer matches it. They can use those funds to take mini sabbaticals throughout their lives, rather than one long one at the end. But yes, it’s tied to income, so the more you make and the longer you stay in the workforce, the more money you save! (You won’t have very much money in there at the beginning, but you’ll have a lot by the end!)
I suspect that the board will look better over time as more information comes out.
Here’s some quotes from the Time article where Sam was named CEO of the Year:
But four people who have worked with Altman over the years also say he could be slippery—and at times, misleading and deceptive. Two people familiar with the board’s proceedings say that Altman is skilled at manipulating people, and that he had repeatedly received feedback that he was sometimes dishonest in order to make people feel he agreed with them when he did not. These people saw this pattern as part of a broader attempt to consolidate power. “In a lot of ways, Sam is a really nice guy; he’s not an evil genius. It would be easier to tell this story if he was a terrible person,” says one of them. “He cares about the mission, he cares about other people, he cares about humanity. But there’s also a clear pattern, if you look at his behavior, of really seeking power in an extreme way.”
… Some worried that iterative deployment would accelerate a dangerous AI arms race, and that commercial concerns were clouding OpenAI’s safety priorities. Several people close to the company thought OpenAI was drifting away from its original mission. “We had multiple board conversations about it, and huge numbers of internal conversations,” Altman says. But the decision was made. In 2021, seven staffers who disagreed quit to start a rival lab called Anthropic, led by Dario Amodei, OpenAI’s top safety researcher.
… For some time—little by little, at different rates—the three independent directors and Sutskever were becoming concerned about Altman’s behavior. Altman had a tendency to play different people off one another in order to get his desired outcome, say two people familiar with the board’s discussions. Both also say Altman tried to ensure information flowed through him. “He has a way of keeping the picture somewhat fragmented,” one says, making it hard to know where others stood.
… Altman told one board member that another believed Toner ought to be removed immediately, which was not true, according to two people familiar with the discussions.
In other words, it appears that Sam started the fight and not them. Is it really that crazy for the board to attempt to remove a CEO who was attempted to undermine the board’s oversight over him?
They were definitely outclassed in terms of their political ability, but I don’t think they were incompetent. It’s more that when you go up against a much more skilled actor, they end up making you look incompetent.
The thing about e/acc is it’s a mix of the reasonable and the insane doom cult.
The reasonable parts talk about AI curing diseases ect, and ask to speed it up.
Given some chance of AI curing diseases, and some chance of AI caused extinction, it’s a tradeoff.
Now where the optimal point of the tradeoff lands on depend on whether we just care about existing humans, or all potential future humans. And also on how big we think the risk of AI extinction is.
If we care about all future humans, and think ai is really dangerous, we get a “proceed with extreme caution” position. A position that accepts the building of ASI eventually, but is quite keen to delay it 1000 years if that buys any more safety.
On the other end, some people think the risks are small, and mostly care about themselves/current humans. They are more e/acc.
But there are also various “AI will be our worthy successors”, “AI will replace humans, and that’s great” type e/acc who are ok with the end of humanity.
Between the two of them, a philosophy that aims to prevent catastrophic risk in the future seems to be creating its own catastrophes in the present.
Shutting down a company and some acrimonious board room discussion is hardly “catastrophic”. And it can be the right move, if you think the danger exceeds the value the company is creating.
Ie if a company makes nuclear power plants that are melt downs just waiting to happen, or kids toys full of lead or something, shutting that company down is a good move.
A potential area of overlap between effective altruism and Roots of Progress is the non-profit New Harvest, which funds research into making meat, eggs, and milk without animals.
Great point. I wish we had more ideas about how to improve this. So many places we might try to fix this: philanthropists might redirect funding. We might try to provide career paths for these institutions’ employees that spanned the space of current problems and not just the one problem they work on.
There is an argument to be made that e/acc is the Jungian shadow to EA.
There is a fundamental difference in principles between the two movements in that EA gradually and then suddenly fell into a paternalistic disregard (if not disdain) for the negative feedback that the market provides—e.g., Helen Toner’s belief that the dissolution of OpenAI was an acceptable alternative to resolving differences with the CEO. But with this exception, most of the principles espoused by EA (scientific mindset, openness to falsifying evidence, integrity, and teamwork) are shared by e/acc.
But EA started with philosophical principles and became a mass movement. e/acc more or less has begun as a mass movement, and is only gradually and haltingly identifying its principles.
Both EA and e/acc reflexively repress the valid differences they have in their approach to promoting progress. While e/acc is now on the ascendant and EA on the ropes, until e/acc or EA can integrate their shadow, both will fall short of their potential in activating human energy in service of progress.
What would a fully integrated vision of progress look like? It would acknowledge the valid view of e/acc that markets generally provide the best mechanism for gathering and processing information about the needs of dispersed groups of individuals while at the same time acknowledging and grappling with the reality that there are some important needs that cannot be met by markets (either because the preconditions for market formation have not been or cannot be met).
But I would be very careful posting this sort of essay online right now. You are either for or against at the moment. Anybody trying to nuance things is likely to be sidelined.
Most of the principles espoused by EA (scientific mindset, openness to falsifying evidence, integrity, and teamwork) are shared by e/acc.
EA here.
Doesn’t seem true as far as I can tell. E/acc doesn’t want to expose it’s beliefs to falsification; that’s why it’s almost always about attacking the other side and almost never about arguing for things on the object level.
E/acc doesn’t care about integrity either. They’re very happy to Tweet all kinds of weird conspiracy theories.
Anyway, I could be biased here, but that’s how I see it.
I can understand why you say what you say about falsification. The way the e/acc community is operating right now is more crusade than critical. But I haven’t seen the evidence for lack of integrity that you appear to have seen. Not saying it’s not there; just I haven’t seen it.
I wouldn’t write off the people behind e/acc just yet, however. In the end, the scientific mindset may win out over the short term desire to score points and dunk on a competing vision that has been embarrassed in various ways.
If there were any part of e/acc that you might find worth incorporating into EA, what might it be?
Hadn’t seen that. Too bad he’s misrepresenting facts.
But that hints at what might be worth reevaluating in EA. Jung had this notion of individuation, in which we have to incorporate into our personality conflicting aspects of ourselves in order to fully realize our capabilities. EA seems very academic or analytical in its approach to promoting progress whereas e/acc is more political or emotional. I believe it will take both to realize a future in which progress is accelerated in a way that benefits even the most vulnerable members of society.
In theory, if they could be made to work, self-driving cars would be one of the best technologies ever. In practice, the technology seems stuck in a rut. Although exact statistics are hard to come by, the number of human interventions seems to remain high.
There is a very high burden of proof for self-driving car companies like Cruise and Waymo; they need to convincingly demonstrate, using robust statistical evidence, that their vehicles are indeed significantly safer than human drivers in the same locales. Cruise, Waymo, et al. have certainly had plenty of time to produce such evidence, but they have yet to do so.
As bullish as I once was on self-driving cars, I think it is reasonable for people to be worried about the potential danger posed by these prototypes driving around their streets. If self-driving car companies can’t prove their worries are misplaced, then, well, banning such testing on public roads doesn’t strike me as unreasonable. At the very least, there seems to be little excuse for taking safety drivers out of prototype cars.
My view on self-driving car bans is influenced by my view that fundamental research breakthroughs are needed to make wide-scale commercialization of self-driving cars a reality. I don’t think the bottleneck is more public road testing. Deep learning researchers need to figure things out like self-supervised video prediction. Until then, self-driving cars will continue to spin their wheels.
It’s a coalition obsessed with where we went wrong: the weakness, the political correctness, the liberalism, the trigger warnings, the smug elites. It’s a coalition that believes we were once hard and have become soft; worse, we have come to lionize softness and punish hardness.
I would describe myself as a techno-optimist, but I find Andreessen’s rant distasteful and alienating. I think allowing Andreessen to define what constitutes techno-optimism would do significant damage to the techno-optimist cause.
I have never particularly liked the term “techno-optimism” anyway. “Optimism” on its own is confusing enough. “Techno-optimism” implies that not only do you think we can solve all problems, but that technology will be the solution to all of them, which is not really true.
Good question, I don’t know. People have been talking about “progress studies” or the “progress movement” or “progress community”, and others have talked about the “abundance agenda”, but none of those lend themselves to personal labels/identities…
This is great, I would love to read more about how you believe Progress Studies could become a philosophy on par with Effective Altruism. I think an advantage EA has is its roots in John Stuart Mill and some of his contemporaries. Personally, I’ve found it harder to pinpoint which philosophers were early proponents of Progress Studies—my sense is that the idea of building, whatever the trials and tribulations, is fundamentally a Stoic idea. Indeed, I think Ayn Rand’s ideas, particularly on the importance of individualism, are important if one would like to create an epistemic history of Progress Studies.
Thanks Robert. I think progress studies needs a more well-defined value system. I have gestured at “humanism” as the basis for this, but it needs much more.
I agree that Rand’s ideas are important here, particularly her view of creative/productive work as a noble activity and of scientists, inventors and business leaders as heroic figures.
Style suggestion. You could put the penultimate paragraph before the preceding one and delete the final paragraph. That will decrease the preachiness factor at the end and the repetition of ideas in the last and third to last paragraph. Plus going straight from we need serious people to the paragraph about those people is what your structure is asking for.
Since you’ve highlighted the women in these paintings, it’s worth noting that one of the first scientific studies advocating the use of masks in surgery was written by Alice Hamilton, a Chicago physician, in 1905. Quoting my article here (it may be paywalled):
In 1905, Chicago physician Alice Hamilton publishes an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association, reporting on experiments measuring the amount of streptococci bacteria expelled when scarlet fever patients cough or cry. She also measures the strep bacteria from healthy doctors and nurses when they talk or cough, leading her to recommend masks during surgery.
“I was told by a student in a large medical college in Chicago,” she writes, “that he had often noticed at the clinics of a certain surgeon that, when the light was from a certain direction, he could see, from his seat in the amphitheater, a continuous spray of saliva coming from the mouth of the surgeon while he discoursed to the class and conducted his operation. Obviously, protection of the mouth, of some sort as to catch and impression the droplets of sputum, should be a routine precaution for surgeons and for surgical nurses during operations.”
Thank you for sharing! I love the tagline on your article about masks bringing us together over the past 400 years, much like medical progress. Also, I’m having amazing thoughts about progress that you can directly link me to accessing this article from 1905.
For something that is long term, but only effects the property of 1 person, like the field example, the market prices it in and it’s not an externality.
No one is significantly incentivized to stop climate change, because no one person bears a significant fraction of the damage caused.
Politicians are far from perfect, but at least they have any incentive to tackle these big problems at all.
Well if it affects one plot of land that is currently the property of just 1 person it can still be an externality because lots of different people will own this land in the future.
It could be an externality, if the land was randomly reassigned a new owner every year or something. But if the land is sold, that is taken into account. It isn’t an externality. Capitalism has priced this effect in.
I wonder if there is also a psychological factor at work. Something along the lines of: a major world crisis, especially one that causes a lot of deaths, makes you think about the ephemeral nature of life and what’s really important, and you either decide to have kids or to stop putting it off. Imagine someone reading about deaths among the elderly and thinking, “I really want Mom and Dad to meet their grandkids—better get on it.”
Curious if Claudia Goldin’s work is relevant here?
Yes, the psychological factor is often cited for discrete events that bring people closer together or highlight a stark idea of what is important in their life. But did COVID initially present a more troubling future? That might work against this idea, because you are pessimistic about the future of a world subject to a global pandemic. However, your point might hold differently for the women highlighted here, since they are in a much more secure place than their peers subject to exposure and uncertainty about their employment.
I’ve also seen discussion about how the opportunity cost of time—what else women could be doing during this period—fast-forwarded plans. Nothing much to do with my free time- might as well have a baby! That could speak to Claudia’s work because her thesis about women’s late fertility has to do with the cost of establishing a career. The time cost of this delays having a family. In the COVID period, many time costs were slashed- i.e. commuting, meetings, besides most social obligations. Might have seemed more feasible to start families with a 2000/2001 view of the balance of time available for both pursuits.
Yep. I wanted to lay out a somewhat more detailed accounting of it, as a basis for future work on how institutions are designed—and how they should be designed, if we want them to be more effective.
I went to the EAA event in Oshkosh last year to see the experimental community first-hand. I was struck by who was there. It was amateurs, sure, but also a lot of pro pilots who had a side interest in experimental aircraft. It’s not just another type of person. The designation gives everyone a place to try new things. Also, it was full of EVTOLs. When we eventually get flying cars, I suspect we’ll point at the experimental designation as an enabling part of the process.
Nice piece, thanks. I hadn’t noticed HC’s latest video, but am also a fan so look forward to watching the full thing.
An initial thought, though: there seem at least a couple of places where one can grant his facts yet argue his interpretation of these as “good” is backwards.
For instance, one can argue that lower preindustrial working hours reflect chronic underemployment and unemployment, one of that society’s chief problems, and that industrialisation alleviated this problem (and even that this was one of the great initial benefits of industrialisation).
And HC’s following point ought to be seen as evidence against the superiority of preindustrial life:
Notice how the workers were constantly eating. That was one of the perks of being a day laborer. Food was a worker’s biggest expense, and so part of their compensation was that their employer would take care of the food for that day. It would be like if part of your compensation was that your boss paid your rent. It relieved a massive financial burden.
Essentially he’s just pointed out that living standards were so low that the majority of budgets had to be spent just on food.
Those many free days the workers had came as a courtesy of Catholicism. Look up the amount of regulation and holidays they had. This was, in fact, one of the reasons why Protestants were so comparatively successful. It was also part of the reason why they were resented in Catholic-majority countries; they got richer and were doctrinally snobbish about it. But I guess attacking Protestantism in favor of medical Caholocism would probably be the wrong sort of spicy for this YouTuber.
Regarding the structure of the workday. Modern-day physical labor still looks like this in many cases. Having worked over the summer in Landscaping and Carpentry this schedule is still present. And OP mentioned the case of office Jobs already.
What a helpful and comprehensive guide to the economic study of human capital and productivity. Thank you for writing this! I like the idea of a model as a good way of testing various hypotheses. Models are undefeated for inferring causality. As a matter of prediction or even for generating hypotheses, I’m less optimistic about models.
Pulling on the institutional thread does seem like the right move, as opposed to ideas. They do at least roughly map to the slow pre-enlightenment, fast modernity and slowing post-modern pattern of progress. Still, privileging institutions over individuals as the most important factor doesn’t make much intuitive sense to me, since each new idea only happens once. It’s possible that institutions are getting in the way of idea execution (regulation, etc.), but missing key ingredient seems to be coordination more than anything.
The “one-time-boom” version of the ideas are getting harder to find argument is one you hear often that does seem to map to the general pattern of progress and is Cowen’s favored variant. I’m partial to the idea that in the wartime hurry to push innovation we reordered our institutions to achieve great short-run gains at the expense of a kludgy emergent system that was working fairly well. Over-optimization of talent sorting and centrally directed R&D may extract progress from promising individuals at the same time that it destroys the system for creating promising individuals. Somewhere between a “Seeing Like a State” argument and a more individual and metaphysical explanation.
I like the idea, especially for the experimentation in governance it would foster.
One possible issue is that the democrat/republican divide often tends to be urban/rural, rather than by state.
Ideally, this sort of change would be accompanied by a redrawing of state lines, enabling both a) more than 50 states and b) better alignments of geography/population to statehood.
You’re reading my mind!!!!!!! My next essay is about what would happen if we divided the country into city-states!! (And it would be for those exact reasons: the divide is urban/rural, and we’d be better aligned with our governments!)
Unfortunately, I’m not optimistic about any of these changes actually happening; from what little I know a constitutional convention seems necessary, and that seems well outside the realm of the possible.
Yes, it might not be possible right now to call a constitutional convention and reorganize into city states. But it’s entirely possible to give more autonomy (and fiscal autonomy) to local and state governments. Sometimes I think it’s worth writing about/thinking about the ideal so then we can see how we can get there (rather than working with what we have now and trying to tweak it slightly better).
I see an issue with all of this, and it is the bottleneck that is storage/infrastructure
You cannot expect all of the solar energy storage to be serviced by batteries, because those degrade if they hold energy for too long
The solution to this is intercontinental HVDC lines, and a bit of hydrogen too
The hydrogen for storage is very easy, even tho it’s a tricky material, we can manage it for unexpected solar dips
However intercontinental HVDC, which are VERY needed once we start to use more than half of our energy needs from solar, require INTERNATIONAL cooperation, and a lot of commitment from many countries
I don’t know if the international geopolitical scene is prepared for such a project, and I think this will delay solar adoption in your timeline after 2030ish
Maybe I’m missing something, but this post doesn’t seem to actually back up the (strong!) claim in its title. Seems more like you’re defending “Something Is Getting Harder To Find But It May Or May Not Be Ideas”.
No you’re right, I had a section in there evaluating the different possible reasons for slow down but it got too long so that will be coming in future posts. Sorry for the hyperbolic title!
Agree on these points in general—and believe this is one of the major reasons for optimism around AI. AI models seem particularly good at navigating high dimensional landscapes if we structure them appropriately. My theory is this will allows us to hugely increase #2, as we now have a better method for searching the solution space.
Marc Andreessen continues to sound just like himself. I think this is good for the piece, it feels very genuine. In the main I agree.
Markets is the biggest section. This feels telling and also kind of wasteful. It also had the clunkiest bits which were, but of course, the ones about economics. By contrast the Technology section felt a bit thin, but I could easily forgive a certain amount of c’mon, you know why you are here in the effort.
What is this for, really? I can tell who it is for, because it doesn’t seem like it would register much with people who didn’t already mostly agree. But what problem is the manifesto solving? Guessing by some of the keywords included in the bad ideas list, this feels like maybe trying to further crystallize e/acc into a broader concern?
On the flip side, this bit here under The Enemy makes it seem more like talking book:
Our present society has been subjected to a mass demoralization campaign for six decades – against technology and against life – under varying names like “existential risk”, “sustainability”, “ESG”, “Sustainable Development Goals”, “social responsibility”, “stakeholder capitalism”, “Precautionary Principle”, “trust and safety”, “tech ethics”, “risk management”, “de-growth”, “the limits of growth”.
Purely as a matter of style, I thought the “we believe” and “we had a problem” chunks were great, that’s what I want out of a manifesto. I would jettison all the quotes and argumentation, moving names and sources to footnotes or something; I mostly found it distracting, like he was so used to the argumentation side of things he had trouble letting it go (Not that I blame him, I would have the same issue were I to write a manifesto). I thought some of them were compacted too much, like compressing all the progress in agriculture into the green revolution, which sort of deprived it of emotional impact (not least because of term confusion, since green revolution shows up in advertising campaigns and slogans constantly meaning something entirely different).
All that said, I liked it and I wish more public figures like Marc would do things like this.
Hi Annie, thanks for your detailed response. Please be a bit more respectful. You can make your counterarguments without using terms like “absurdly weak” or “nonsensical”. Thank you.
I disagree with (5), that the long-term historical pattern is acceleration (and more specifically, I don’t think that the first three charts in your linked piece are sufficient to demonstrate this).
At the frontier, real GDP per person growth has remained remarkably constant for the past ~200 years.
The growth rate for the worldmight show acceleration, but I understand this as a compositional effect, as more countries leave the zero/low growth regime and experience rapid catch-up growth. But in the long-run each country’s growth rate will converge with the roughly constant rate at the frontier. Eventually we’ll run out of countries joining the modern growth regime, and I’d then expect world real GDP per capita growth to slow. This paper from Robert Lucas describes the dynamics I’m talking about—see Figure 3 in particular (world growth accelerates and then slows and converges to the rate at the frontier).
And due to the near universal pattern of the Demographic Transition, I’d also expect population growth to trend towards zero in the long-run. So I wouldn’t expect acceleration in the growth rate of total GDP either.
(FYI, I’m repeating my reasons for being unconvinced of David Roodman’s piece on accelerating growth, which are in also in this Twitter thread).
No, you’re looking at too short a timescale [edit: to be clear, this is referring to your specific point about constant growth rates over the last 200 years]. Zoom out to the last few thousand, or few tens of thousand years.
My conviction that the rate of growth in GDP per capita at the technological frontier had to be increasing over time sprang from a simple calculation. Suppose the modern rate of growth of real GDP per capita (that is the growth rate after taking out the effects of inflation) is equal to 2% per year and that income per capita in year 2000 is $40,000. If this rate had prevailed for the last 1000 years, then in the year 1000, income per capita measured in the purchasing power of dollars today would have been $0.0001, or 0.01 cents. This is way too small to sustain life. If the growth rate had been falling over time instead of remaining constant, then the implied measure of GDP per capita in the year 1000 would have been even lower. …
Reasonable people can differ about what the future holds, but the simple calculation that first got me thinking about this (and which no doubt influenced how Maddison did the backward projections to come up with his estimates) leaves no room for doubt about what happened in the past. The rate of growth of GDP per capita has increased over time. The rate of progress in standards of living has increased even more.
[Further edit for clarity:] I think your contention is: there are basically two growth regimes. There is a low-growth regime, which most countries were in for most of history. Then there is a high-growth regime, which countries enter once they industrialize. This is an acceleration but it’s a one-time thing. Any seeming longer-term, more-spread-out acceleration is just a compositional effect.
That is a reasonable hypothesis, but I think it’s wrong. It may be true that there are discrete growth regimes, but I think there are more than two of them, historically. Progress was extremely slow in stone age. It sped up somewhat in the early agricultural age. It sped up more in the modern era after Gutenberg, Bacon, etc. It sped up more after industrialization. And I think it will speed up still more in the future—possibly after we cross some next threshold, whatever that is exactly.
That said, I agree that it’s possible that the future could hold something different, and the demographic transition is a good reason why. Chad Jones has drawn attention to this. We need more people and more brains to continue growth. I tend to think we will solve this by (1) solving the fertility crisis and getting back to high rates of population growth, and/or (2) using AI to substitute for human researchers.
Yes, that’s essentially the stylised model I use – i.e. I understand the long-run history of GDP per capita growth at the frontier as a transition from stagnation (/a very low rate) into sustained growth at a roughly constant rate. And it is very stylised (and I allow that the take-off may have been quite gradual), but I still think it works quite well as a basic framework.
And I agree that Romer’s backwards projection implies that the rate of GDP per capita growth at the frontier has increased over time; but it doesn’t prove that this took the form of a constant acceleration across all of history, rather than a roughly discrete acceleration (described above).
I don’t yet think that the Maddison data supports the idea of accelerating frontier growth across millennia. I think we need better country and year coverage to establish that claim. Better country coverage because the country at the frontier changes over time. Even if we see constant acceleration in country X’s GDP per capita growth rate between (say) 1-1800AD, it is unlikely that it was consistently at the frontier. We need to splice together data from various countries to get a timeseries of frontier growth. And better year coverage to avoid us relying on data points which may just so happen to be at a low or high point in a fluctuating cycle. We might have a higher estimate of GDP per capita in country Y for AD1000 than AD1, but I’d need more convincing to interpret that as long-run growth rather than our data point for AD1000 incidentally being a good year (or at the high point of a cycle which may span generations) and/or our data point for AD1 incidentally being a bad year (/low point in a cycle).
FWIW, this Jones & Romer paper names “accelerating growth” as one of the key stylized facts that growth models should explain. See pp. 13–16.
One example of accelerating progress they give is from Nordhaus’s famous “price of light” paper:
Between 38,000 B.C. and 1750 B.C., the real price of light fell by a total of about 17%, based on the transition from animal or vegetable fat to sesame oil as a fuel. The use of candles and whale oil reduced the price by a further 87% by the early 1800s, an average annual rate of decline of 0.06% per year. Between 1800 and 1900, the price of light fell at an annual rate that was 38 times faster, 2.3%, with the introduction of the carbon filament lamp. And then in the 20th century, the price of light has fallen at the truly remarkable pace of 6.3% per year with the use of tungsten filaments and fluorescent lighting.
I read recently on some substack that a lot of the gains in cheaper Solar power are actually a result of the industry being highly subsidized, much more than other forms of energy—presumably indicating that it’s an unsustainable form of growth we can’t expect to continue were it to be pitted against e.g Nuclear in a free(er) market(?).
Does this change your conclusions in any way? What am I missing? Also, how do you view the future of nuclear (fission) energy in light of the potential of solar?
Our present society has been subjected to a mass demoralization campaign … under varying names like … “Precautionary Principle” [etc.]
I interpret that to mean not that he’s against precaution, but that he thinks terms like that are being used to promote bad ideas.
Also, the Precautionary Principle is objectively bad:
As we look back on the failed civilizations of the past, we can see that they were so poor, their technology was so feeble, and their explanations of the world so fragmentary and full of misconceptions that their caution about innovation and progress was as perverse as expecting a blindfold to be useful when navigating dangerous waters. Pessimists believe that the present state of our own civilization is an exception to that pattern. But what does the precautionary principle say about that claim? Can we be sure that our present knowledge, too, is not riddled with dangerous gaps and misconceptions? That our present wealth is not pathetically inadequate to deal with unforeseen problems? Since we cannot be sure, would not the precautionary principle require us to confine ourselves to the policy that would always have been salutary in the past—namely innovation and, in emergencies, even blind optimism about the benefits of new knowledge?
–David Deutsch, The Beginning of Infinity
The EU had by now installed the precautionary principle as a guiding light. This superficially sensible idea—that we should worry about unintended consequences of innovation—morphed into a device by which activists prevent life-saving new technologies displacing more dangerous ones. As formally adopted by the European Union in the Lisbon Treaty, the principle holds the new to a higher standard than the old and is essentially a barrier to all innovations, however safe, on behalf of all existing practices, however dangerous. This is because it considers the potential hazards, but not the likely benefits of an innovation, shifting the burden of proof to an innovator to prove that its product will not cause harm, but not allowing that innovator to demonstrate that it might cause good, or might displace a technology that already causes harm.
Thanks. What I see is that this paper specifies “a non-naive precautionary principle” or “an intelligent application of the precautionary principle,” which implies something about what the precautionary principle might end up being in practice without those qualifiers…
The precautionary principle is objectively bad? That’s a massive assumption that only holds if you are somehow confident that nuclear war, engineered pandemics, advanced AI derailing society etc. are all impossible, right?
No. The Precautionary Principle doesn’t just mean “take precautions when warranted.” No one would be against that. It has become more like a bias towards inaction, regardless of cost/benefit calculations. See Ridley’s quote above, about how this “superficially sensible idea” was transformed into something irrational.
I think that this is broadly correct. One of the biggest problems of health care in America is that the feedback mechanisms that control cost (such as honest and public prices) are completely broken, and fixing them would likely go a large way towards solving the problem.
I enjoyed this post, especially the concept of an error budget which was new to me.
As an implementation detail, these meta-regulations seem to fit into concept of House Rules, a version of which probably exists in most legislative/regulatory bodies. However, AFAIK these are usually set by the body itself, so perhaps the meta-regulation would need to be written into the constitution or charter of the body.
I’ve heard people criticize this for lacking nuance, not engaging with critics, and not citing sources. I feel this misunderstands the genre. It’s a manifesto. It’s not supposed to be nuanced or appeal to critics; it’s supposed to be even a little divisive, drawing a line in the sand, recruiting those who are already sympathetic and ignoring or even repelling those who are not. It’s not supposed to argue for its claims, it’s supposed to stake out some beliefs and declare them.
If you just don’t like manifestos of any stripe, then fine; but it never makes sense to criticize a piece for not being in a different genre.
Marc is a modern-day Thomas Jefferson. I agree with every word he wrote and find it inspirational and a great encapsulation of how I feel about tech and what it can do for society. The movement needs a rallying cry and a big tent to go with it. I intentionally mention Jefferson, as someone whose actions often fell short of his inspirational vision and words. Marc is not without criticism in this regard, but who is? This is not the time for criticizing our friends, and as such, I won’t nitpick the things I would alter in such a manifesto. I hope it can help formalize this ethos into a practical movement for society, especially for those of us in the US who feel politically homeless.
Some negative externalities and other problems of progress that may or may not be considered solved:
how technology can make war more deadly
how it can assist oppressive/authoritarian regimes
technological unemployment
unclean/unsafe food, water supplies
resource depletion
pollution of all kinds
carcinogens
Positive externalities are like, almost all of human wealth?
Yale economist William Nordhaus estimates that innovators capture a mere 2.2% of the total “surplus” from innovation. … If it is anywhere close to being an accurate estimate, the implication is that “society” pays a paltry $2.20 for every $100 worth of welfare it enjoys from innovating activities.
To add on to what John Buridan already correctly shared about major changes to the tax code in the early 20th century you might want to check out the Federalist Paper No. 30-36: https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers
Hamilton and the Federalists were arguing for taxation and a central bank to deal with the Revolutionary War debts that the U.S. had racked up (foreign loans and veteran backpay and pensions). Since direct taxes were declared illegal in the constitution, most of the money raised by the Federal Government was in the form of tariffs: https://www.ttb.gov/public-information/special-feature
Abraham Lincoln instituted the first national income tax to raise funds desperately needed to prepare the Union Army for the Civil War, and to administer a more complicated system of taxation, he also created the IRS. There were numerous repeals and court battles until in 1909 the constitutionality was settled by the 16th amendment. https://www.amazon.com/Ways-Means-Lincoln-Cabinet-Financing/dp/0735223572
To answer your question, the big driver of federal taxation for the past 80 years has been social security (and medicare to a lesser extent), instituted in the 1930s(medicare in the 1960s). If you sum up state and local revenues (mostly property and sales) they are greater than federal, when you take out insurance programs ($ you get back) and intergovernmental transfers ($ state/local get back) from federal taxes. Here’s a good breakdown of the revenue sources: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-breakdown-revenues-among-federal-state-and-local-governments
To answer why there’s so much federal taxation relative to state and local, even if there’s greater spending by state and local, you have to examine the expansion of federal government programs from the New Deal through WWII, to the Great Society, the Cold War, the Green Movement, and 9/11.
Dept. of HHS was created in the early 1950s along with medicare/medicaid.
NASA in the 1950s to carve out space programs from DoD.
NSF in the 1950s to unify and manage federal R&D.
HUD in the 1960s to support urban renewal.
Dept. of Transportation in the late 1960s to regulate interstate travel (mostly air traffic and highways).
EPA in the early 1970s to regulate clean air and water.
US Consumer Product Safety in the 1970s for consumer protection.
Dept. of Energy to carve out nuclear weapons from DoD and manage U.S nuclear power in the 1970s.
Dept. of Education in the early 1980s to measure performance and redistribute funds to ameliorate inequities.
VA in the late 1980s to carve out veteran health from the DoD.
Dept. of Homeland Security to standardize and unify national security.
As you can see, many of these agencies and departments deal with externalities states may impose on their neighbors, collective action problems that encourage bad actors to defect and of course, plenty of pork projects to spread federal money around the country.
I agree with your conclusion, Maxwell, and this piece was a joy to read. Jason’s comment also seems correct to me in that subdomains very clearly exhibit the phenomenon of ideas getting harder locally. Still, the fallacy of composition tells us to be wary of summing up these subdomains. Diversification across subdomains may the answer to how the innovation frontier can continue to expand despite ideas getting locally more challenging.
I’m curious to hear what you think is the scarce resource. After trying my hand at starting a company and working in venture capital, I’ve come to appreciate that often the idea is quite important. The old hobbyhorse of execution vs idea feels like a false dichotomy though. The best companies do not spring forth from entrepreneurs’ heads like Athena, fully dressed for battle, but they are also not A/B tested into existence. Similarly, science seems to move forward through a combination of dogged empirical work and theoretical insight.
Here are a few areas I’d like to read more about: courage, ignorance/fools and subversion/tricksters. I always think of the strange case of Medicine Nobel Dr. Barry Marshall, who debunked long established medical beliefs about stress being the cause of gastric ulcers by performing risky self experimentation that involved infecting his gut with bacteria: https://asm.org/Podcasts/MTM/Episodes/The-Self-Experimentation-of-Barry-Marshall-MTM-144
I am pretty convinced that β>0, even though I also think there is some contribution to slowdown from other factors. Some reasons:
Bloom et al observe β>0 not only in the economy at large but in various subdomains, such as transistors and Moore’s Law. If you want to argue that this is all caused by society’s resistance to innovation (which is real), then you have to argue that society also resists innovation in integrated circuits (which… doesn’t seem like a thing).
There are simple intuitions for β>0 based on low-hanging fruit and burden of knowledge (both of which you mentioned).
Scott Alexander gives some intuition for why we should expect β>0 here; if it weren’t then progress would long ago have accelerated to insane levels. In fact, I haven’t checked the math, but I think if β=0 you end up with a hyperbolic curve where GDP goes infinite in finite time; see this other Alexander post (although the paper that post is based on is kind of silly and not written by an expert in the field; Kremer 1993 is a better reference for this idea and is worth reading).
That said, I am also pretty convinced that there is a contribution from institutions and other factors. (To paraphrase something Eli Dourado said to me, TFP growth is slow in Venezuela, and no one thinks that is because ideas are harder to find in Venezuela.)
I basically agree with everything you’ve said here.
On the subdomains point, you can have decreasing returns within each subdomain but constant returns overall if you keep finding new subdomains. I think this is an accurate model of progress. It captures ideas like paradigm shifts and also integrates the intuitions for low-hanging fruit and burden of knowledge in a way which still allows rapid progress. My favorite example is the Copernican revolution. There were huge obstacles from burden of knowledge and low-hanging fruit in Ptolemaic astronomy. It took so much extra data and education to improve the epicycles of Mercury by a few decimal points. But once astronomy moved to a new model, there was a whole new grove of low hanging fruit and almost none of the investment in Ptolemaic astronomy was necessary to make progress so the burden of knowledge was reset.
Absolutely true that new subdomains open up new areas of low-hanging fruit. It is the “stacked S-curve” model.
Not immediately clear whether what this means for β>0. I think this model may be addressed in Bloom et al, or maybe in an earlier paper by Jones. I vaguely recall that it doesn’t make a difference whether you analyze things in terms of the subdomains or the economy at large, but I don’t have the exact reference at hand.
Thank you for this thought-provoking post! Maybe ‘WTF happened in 1971’ should be renamed to ‘WTF happened in 1973’? Energy scarcity being at the root of the long term trends in productivity and prosperity seems like a more plausible explanation than the Nixon shock.
Long term abundance is a great future to look forward to. What has me more concerned is the inertia of the climate system (committed warming, feedbacks) and the turbulence it’s going to cause in the next decades. It seems like a race to deploy enough solar to allow people to adapt to extreme weather (air conditioners for wet bulb heat waves, fresh water for droughts etc.).
On the other hand, a lot of markets maintain a equilibrium due to their capture, so any hypothetical gain in competitive/selective pressure can have downstream externalities. For example, the competitive advantage in art, according to the consumer choices now, was more about the lower price than the prestige. Who knows what implication this has for “the creator economy”, and who knows how the larger advertisement sector handles this potential disintermediation. This may also by exacerbated by the macroeconomic pressure to favor bond yield over equities (though this isn’t my wheelhouse).
Generative AI is clearly not a mature market by any stretch of the imagination. One concrete point is the churn rate of Generative AI platforms. The more abstract point that mirrors this is the “there is no moat” memo. We’ve seen the “stablediffusion moment” for chat & text2image (which has progressed into free markets for LoRAs), but we arguably haven’t realized this for robotics transformers like RT-2-X.
another hypothetical in the air is what consumers do with the client-server business model when their content does not necessarily originate from those services anymore. again, way too early to tell when most browsers & operating systems are still trying to ship generative AI as a cloud-based feature (for now). Otherwise, there’s just dealing with the loud minority of “AI doom” which is “suppositionally valid conjecture that’s practically unsound”. but that’s my opinionated take informed by first principles like the Kerckhoff principle & the 90′s lore of PGP, so take this with a grain of cypherpunk salt.
I like this perspective in the reality of atoms, but I’d like to offer a cofactor that also compounds with this.
Electrical power is never freed from thermodynamic constraints. In simple terms, it would be obtuse to maximize the transmission of electrical power, because that inherently maximizes waste heat & associated destructive risk. Fundamentally, our environment favors transmission of signal upon local consumption of power, usually digital bits above a minimum SNR. This is not a single paradigm, because our economy has been growing considerably in the scope of financially valuable bits, typically with a growing capacity for risk instruments.
I’d like to extend this a little further. So average joules per capita might scale up tremendously, maybe it’s shunted to larger FLOPs (operating bits) per capita, and coincidentally there’s more accurately implied risk per capita. I’m willing to assert that there’s a happy providence where radical energy abundance is complemented by a radical, elastic demand for accelerating production of novel signals. In other words, we’re not just sticking with a static manufacturing base that can brute force upon energy abundance, perhaps it is also capable of diversifying & optimizing for energy-efficient exploration of undeveloped frontiers. Moreover, because the footprint for novel concepts like autonomous agency fall under the threshold of consumer electronics, there may even be an imminent paradigm where monetary velocity upon energy abundance leads to much more extensive conversion of joules to financial surplus, therefore much more extensive capacity for debt. Which is critical when communities need the capex for resources like freshwater-producing facilities.
As to the Kardashev challenge, I think we need to consider that solar technology has been optimized for wattage/mass (though I’m sure this oversimplifying some nuance). Since we can only really grow outwards, beyond land-bound real estate, I’d contend that radical energy abundance relies in part on optimized upmass. Not only is this necessary, but there has been a decades-old, thoroughly-planned dream to maximally collect the necessary commodities in microgravity and continue scaling up en situ. We might only attain 1.0 on the Kardashev Scale by endeavoring to construct the precursors to attaining 2.0. This bridge isn’t going to be crossed in our lifetimes, but it’s fascinating to me, at least, that there may be an acceleration stack:
more joules → more FlOPs → more financial agency → more serviceable debt → more terrestrial capex → more demand for extraterrestrial ISRU → more indication that we can thrive & moderate environmental downsides
this definitely doesn’t touch upon the nuances of manufacturing, societal displacement, and perhaps other black swans. yet I think this could be a by-the-numbers providence that further vindicates a sense of optimism, and perhaps a more focused purpose for the human condition beyond Malthusianism, beyond noisy zero-sum subcultural bloodsport.
then again, this is just my overly optimistic take.
What about land cost for solar? At what point does that become a significant part of energy cost? Solar is less diffuse than wind but more diffuse than any fuel-based energy technology.
If it’s not significant now, surely at some point on our way to becoming a Kardashev Type 1 civilization it becomes a problem?
Right now land costs are on the order of $1k-$2k/acre/yr (1 acre ~ 4000m2, but I find it a convenient metric because an average acre receives an average of just over 4MW of sunlight if you spread it across the full 8760 hours in a year, which gives an average of ~1MW output at current efficiencies if you had 100% panel coverage). and with current efficiencies in typical regions that’s something like 2000-8000 MWh/yr depending on local weather and panel layout, so <$1/MWh. If we move towards tandem or other multijunction cells (which seems plausible in the 2030s) that power density could double. In addition there are some slower trends that should start to support things like agrivoltaics (dual use of land without decreasing crop yields) and comparably cheap or cheaper non-silicon semitransparent panels (which can actually be used in greenhouses or over crops, selectively absorbing wavelengths plants can’t use while providing shade to reduce water consumption).
In other words, there are lots of options to address this. World electricity consumption would have to increase by at least 3 orders of magnitude before land use even started to become a consideration.
I do think the OP is overestimating the rate at which energy storage and synthetic fuel costs will fall, and that that is a bigger consideration than land use. I also think resistance to early retirement of existing assets will slow down the later stages of the move away from fossil fuels, both in electricity generation and in transportation fuels. But I doubt that shifts the overall timeline by more than 5-10 yrs.
Solar panels are more economically productive than any unused land, forestry, or agriculture, and even some land uses in built up areas, such as car parking. What this means is that deploying solar upgrades utility.
There is a question whether there is enough land. The short answer is yes, easily, it’s not even close. Something like 4-5% of Earth’s land surface with solar can provide enough energy for 10 billion people to live at current US levels of energy consumption, and more than 35% of Earth’s land surface is essentially uninhabited deserts, mountains, swamps, forests, etc.
The longer answer is that we can provide the food needs of our civilization with about 20% of Earth’s land surface area under more-or-less intense cultivation, our civilization consumes roughly 100x more energy in the form of electricity, oil and gas, than food, and solar energy is about 1000x more productive, per unit area, than plants.
Strictly speaking, Kardashev Level 1 would require the entire surface, land and water, of Earth to be paved with solar. This is not particularly desirable nor necessary, in my opinion!
Strictly speaking, Kardashev level 1 requires control over a whole planet’s energy budget such that we are capable of using it. It says nothing about what we do with it. “Choose to not use it and leave some spaces wild, when we could easily choose otherwise” seems like a perfectly valid way to meet that criterion (that we don’t yet meet).
Does anyone have a good essay about federalism—particularly the history of the US and how we have divided power between the federal governments and the states?
“Land value taxes are generally favored by economists as they do not cause economic inefficiency, and reduce inequality.[2] A land value tax is a progressive tax, in that the tax burden falls on land owners, because land ownership is correlated with wealth and income.[3][4] The land value tax has been referred to as “the perfect tax” and the economic efficiency of a land value tax has been accepted since the eighteenth century.[1][5][6] Economists since Adam Smith and David Ricardo have advocated this tax because it does not hurt economic activity, and encourages development without subsidies.”
Despite this rather glowing summary, and support by economists from Milton Friedman to Paul Krugman, land taxes are rare. The Economist explains:
“The bigger barrier is political. LVTs would impose concentrated costs on landowners [a politically powerful constituency], who face a new tax bill and reduced sale price. The benefit, by contrast, is spread equally over today’s population and future generations. The problem is unlikely to be overcome. Economists will continue to advocate LVTs, and politicians will continue to ignore them.”
Some jurisdictions have managed to implement land value taxes. Denmark and Estonia have a form of the tax, and a handful of municipalities in Pennsylvania (Allentown, Harrisburg, Altoona from 2009-2018ish and Pittsburgh from 1911-2000) have experimented with it or its cousin split-rate taxation. Split-rate taxation taxes both land and structures like a traditional property tax, though it taxes land at a higher rate (often 5:1) than structures.
I’m still researching various income streams for governments and I’m wondering: will income tax be the best way to tax in the future? (I’m thinking about remote work and how we might be taxed in one location but living in another one). Or are there governments who are pulling tax revenue from other unique places? Are there any good books or essays about unique tax structures that have worked well/make sense?
Very interesting piece and I think San Francisco isn’t alone in the need for some form of greater regional governance. My mind immediately jumps to all the regional planning bodies throughout the U.S., like CMAP (Chicago Metropolitan Agency for Planning) in Illinois, which covers an area vastly greater than the City of Chicago but whose powers are purely advisory. From what I understand, they put out excellent regional plans full of great TOD and YIMBY proposals. Yet it’s ultimately the Aldermen of Chicago who exert a kind of feudal authority over every little land-use decision in their patches of turf. With a playing field like this, it’s no wonder NIMBYs dominate (or why Aldermen keep going to jail, for that matter). Consolidating land-use authority in a regional body certainly would tilt the balance of power towards pro-housing forces.
But the transit issue is where I think your case is strongest and most generalizable. I live in DC, where our regional metro system WMATA is chronically under-funded and terrified of making long-term investments needed to ensure the decent and reliable service a metro area of our size deserves. WMATA has to go hat-in-hand to Maryland and Virginia soliciting voluntary contributions for a system that reaches very deeply into both states. The share of operating costs recovered by fares is pretty low, but I don’t think it’s totally out of the ordinary for U.S. transit systems. DC residents end up bearing a much greater cost for what is a truly regional system. But we simply can’t compel Maryland and Virginia to pay their fare share. It sounds like BART has the same issue? We could use some regional bodies with actual taxing authority whose jurisdictions actually align with the reach of our infrastructure needs. Maybe “save our metro” is a useful political rallying cry for this.
Are there any examples of cities around the world you’ve seen that do this particularly well? Greater London, essentially coterminous with the Tube, comes to mind. But I’d love to do some research on further case studies, perhaps for one of my ROP BBI pieces.
Funny enough, Chicago didn’t have a dramatic consolidation, but it is the result of a lot of annexation. During the failed 1912 SF consolidation, Chicago was also held up as an example of a successful consolidation. Toronto consolidated in the 1990s. So it can still happen.
Transit is challenging. As I talk about in the piece, I don’t think that every consolidation makes sense. You can’t say “it’s all integrated” or “there’s regional rail, so become one city!” and free-riding is a timeless problem. SF is is somewhat unique at this point in time in how uniquely it’s connected without being merged. Maybe LA comes close.
I think the issue with the taxing authority for a supra-authority is you run into issues of authority. I think school boards are somewhat like this, where they are funded by real taxes and people vote on their representation, and they take it really seriously, but it isn’t quite a municipality. County elections are like this too for things like sheriffs.
Wow, Evan—what an amazing essay this is! As a former SF resident I had not mental picture of 101 municipalities but of course am very aware of the challenges. The New York analogy is great and super helpful.
The solution makes total sense—and yet it’s also clear that inertia and self-interest of bureaucrats and local politicians will work against it. What do you think will it take to get an advocate (or a group of advocates) like Green in NYC to get this going? (I guess getting your essay as much readership as possible with SF people is a good first step!)
I think awareness this is an option is an important part. It’s also a multi-step process where I think you can have multiple parts. Maybe consolidate the police department and the many transit agencies. Perhaps some of the smaller towns into some of the bigger cities.
The most important part is just that the conditions need to already exist. There’s already a cultural connection and integrated economy. The legal conditions are already there. Now we just need to build political will over a decade+ with an organized, if quiet, movement with small steps over time.
Who is your target market? For an adult to take nearly a year out of their life is a big ask. For whom do you expect it will be worth it? Staff/campaigners at existing non-profits? Existing bloggers/youtubers etc on related subjects? Anyone else? How large is the potential pool of students and how will you reach them and convince them that the course is worth the time and money?
I realise this is not a commercial project, but I think you would benefit from some start-up like thinking: who is this product for, what is the market, how do you reach customers, what is a minimum viable product from which to iterate? Apologies if you have already done that, but it wasn’t communicated in your post.
Thanks for the note! I answer your questions below. One overall comment: this is an expansion of a project/school that’s already successful and profitable, with a proven model and product. I’ve already taught 100 students, with demand far beyond what I can currently supply.
“Who is your target market?” City and state employees, and several markets in the general population, with immediate focus on tech, law, and finance professionals. I am not asking them to take a year out of their lives; all of my classes are meant to be taken with a regular job and busy life.
“For whom do you expect it will be worth it?” I’ve taught over 100 students already, and ~all of them would say it’s been worth it. It’s exciting to learn what the government actually is from a charismatic teacher, even if you don’t go on to be super active politically! (Although many do go on to be active politically, empowered by their new knowledge.)
“How large is the potential pool of students and how will you reach them...” I think the pool is at least 10,000 people throughout NYC, but probably far more. I’ll reach them the way I’ve already been reaching them with my established classes, via Twitter, my newsletter, and word of mouth. Demand already vastly outstrips my ability to teach my current classes, which is why I’m focusing on expanding and training more teachers.
“I think you would benefit from some start-up like thinking.” Agree, and already done. Maximum New York (and me) have been sustained principally from revenue/profit since I started in March 2022.
I think it would add a lot of value to this post to emphasize that this is already something that’s being implemented / you already have the infrastructure for. Like Dumbledore’s Army, I would have a lot of skepticism towards this if it wasn’t clear that this was already being put into practice / the way was already paved. My first thought was to comment on practicalities and purpose. Since it’s already in practice or on the way to being there, knowing that fact would allow people like me to move on and give comments that are more relevant to the project in its current state.
I don’t think there would be broad agreement within the progress community about the Singer argument, or more generally about utilitarianism.
Personally, I am neither a utilitarian nor an altruist, and I don’t agree with the drowning child argument as I understand it.
I think how much to spend on yourself vs. charity or other causes that you believe in is a personal decision, based on what is meaningful and important to you.
Hmm, I honestly don’t know whether progress studies can be applied to any random job or company. I think of it more about applying at a society-wide level. Of course, it might inspire some people to take jobs at more ambitious / cutting-edge companies (or start such companies!) But that also doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with companies that aren’t cutting-edge—it takes all kinds of companies to make a functioning economy.
If anything, maybe progress studies can help remind you all of the moral value of economic growth. To the extent you all do you job well, and create economic value, and produce an honest profit—you are contributing to the well-being of the world. That makes it worth taking pride in a job well done. Trite but true.
Tribal-based SEZs could be the perfect place for people to sell normally Rx-based drugs OTC.
(Canada is way more liberal wrt respecting tribal sovereignty than America—the courts in Canada consistently rule in favor of tribal reservations and the RMCP in British Columbia has encountered public outrage when it tried to do enforcement before, which has nudged it towards non-enforcement of some actions where tribal actions had a conflict with the province). Canada also allows tribes to “buy up more land”, which is way easier in Canada than the states. Canadians in general are more left-wing than Americans and are more likely to believe that tribes really should have their own sovereignty outside of federal jurisdiction (and it’s interesting that the Canadian police just don’t enforce certain laws—which is why there are now so many psychedelic mushroom stores in BC....)
On reservation land, there is already massive distrust of the “process of modern medicine” (including doctors), which prevents many people from getting the care they need. Diabetes rates (and “addiction rates”) on reservations are ultra-high (one Oglala reservation featured by Peter Santenello [he showcases the differences between Indian reservations on his YouTube videos] had dialysis centers). If diabetes medication [eg empagliflozin, sotagliflozin, metformin, rapamycin, semaglutide]+statins+[potentially revolutionary treatments to addiction, which could include some native-based psychedelic plants] could be made OTC (OTC means trusting the customer, it means being pro-choice), it could do a lot to prevent health problems from turning into health disasters, especially on tribal lands. And since there is also substantial demand for these medications OTC among the ordinary population, it could serve as a huge source of taxable income, kind of like the casinos.
[native reservations, esp in South America, seem to have some ability to give people psychedelic plant therapies—there could be a way to rework experimental “right to try” bio-therapies into the legends/prophecies of some native american tribe]
It’s already possible to get many of these Rx-based drugs OTC in Latin America (and perhaps from India/Turkey through the grey market) [Latin America has its own unique issues with high diabetes rates], but then one has to deal with inconvenient flights [or travel costs]/customs/etc, which massively reduces their convenience.
Similarly, they can be places where people base experimental medical treatments like exosomes or stem cell treatments (where it’s a massive hassle to offer them in the US due to regulation, and where it’s possible to get them in Latin America). Eg https://garmclinic.com/ (which is in Honduras, and thus tough to get to for most Americans). Any form of non-mainstream medication innovation (that the FDA holds back!) would have a strong argument for being more-than-welcome on tribal land
I’ve visited Roatan before, and the amount of land needed to set up these jurisdictions is quite small. If Minicircle could be offered on tribal land rather than Latin America. Of course, one would have to do due justice to issues that Native Americans face, but bypassing the untrustworthy “white man/FDA” medical system is, I think, enough of a good reason.
[OTC removes many barriers that indigeneous/poor populations face when getting the medication they need, especially preventatively.]
“My theoretical challenge is: Progress Studies ought to be able to explain why two communities can view progress differently, and do so in its own terms; that is, in a theory that adequately defines what progress is...”
These are interesting questions, but, in my opinion, on the periphery of what “Progress Studies” is. Progress Studies generally pre-supposes that industrial, scientific, and economic development are good things. Most discussion seems to focus on better understanding how and why these things come about. At least, that’s what attracted me to this forum—somewhere where people nerd out over why the steam engine was developed where and when it was, how we can accelerate the pace of technological development, and how we can achieve more of these “good” things in the future by studying the past.
To determine whether or not this should be considered progress is, in my view, more likely to be satisfyingly answered by the field of Philosophy. There are centuries of writing that will delve far deeper into this, and have far more satisfying answers, than what’s generally discussed here—and the general supposition that, say, the Apollo mission or mRNA vaccines were capital-P Progress.
“I have reason to believe there is contestation here. From my highly informal sample of well-educated people in the Bay Area, for some, space colonies seem to represent progress; for others, an inhabitable and less technological earth seem to represent progress. These two, highly local cultural communities have different views of what progress is. My theoretical challenge is: Progress Studies ought to be able to explain why two communities can view progress differently, and do so in its own terms; that is, in a theory that adequately defines what progress is.”
I think this is actually a good example of the point I’m trying to make. The Philosopher would study both arguments and try to understand what each would say about the Good, and make a determination about what this says about the human condition or what progress should be. Your median Progress Studies enthusiast likely starts off pretty firmly on team Space Colony—and, if they’re being honest, is mostly interested in this question as a means for understanding how we could encourage more of team degrowth to switch sides.
To be clear, I don’t mean this in a negative sense toward either Progress Studies or Philosophy. Both questions are interesting and worthy of discussion. Seeking knowledge and understanding is an inherent good! But it’s also nice to have a space to talk about steam engines or designing effective industrial policy, without getting into the Philosophical weeds each time.
Progress Studies generally pre-supposes that industrial, scientific, and economic development are good things.
Consider this: What’s development? What subset of industrial, scientific, and economic labor count as development (versus business as usual)? Surely not everything—many things are dead-ends. Many developments, even ones that were temporarily widely used, turned out not to be worth the risk (see: thalidomide). Other developments are deemed, by some, not worth the risk, and well worth it by others (see: nuclear energy). On yet more, the jury is still out on whether the risk will have been worth it (like plastic). What makes any one thing a development? Progress Studies will at least need to agree on what is and is not development—if it can’t, how does it know what’s worth studying?
Now, say we managed to come up with some criteria for what counts as “progress.” Perhaps it’s some mix of the technology’s diffusion, or its ability to ‘unlock’ certain other technologies, discounted against its externalities. Now, if we had those criteria, we’d have to justify them: why are these the important things? To answer those questions, I reckon we’d find ourselves right back at the questions I asked in my original post.
If this is all philosophy: fine. But can Progress Studies really work independently of these questions? I understand if they get offloaded to philosophers. (I’ll do it; I’m a willing volunteer). But can Progress Studies afford to be agnostic about them? I’m trying to nudge at those points where philosophy may be subtly required to do the thing Progress Studies needs to do. Points where ideas about what progress is haven’t been questioned as finely as they might be, and where some additional question-asking in those areas may substantially strengthen Progress Studies’ analytical purchase—deciding what is Progress and why, then understanding what features allowed that progress to happen.
This post is fantastic. Also, the last 8 months have been an eternity for LLMs. Have you been tinkering with any of the new ones since this experiment, and if so how’d they do?
Thanks for sharing the “the unreasonable effectiveness of insurance” books and pieces about fire safety. This is also a theme that fascinates me, and while I was working in reinsurance modeling for cybersecurity I became fascinated with the history of steam boilers. This technological innovation is a great case study for progress that creates problems that requires more progress to solve.
The Hartford Steam Boiler Inspection and Insurance Company (now a part of MunichRe) was created to address this problem and the blog post below describes why the sinking of the Sultana steam ship in 1865 was a critical turning point: https://blog.hsb.com/2015/03/30/sultana/
I believe this precedent setting case predates the UL by about 30 years and well before the commercialization of electricity (besides nascent telegraph systems). Prior to the HSB Inspection and Insurance Company, insurance was limited to covering mostly natural causes of marine/storm (ancient) and property/fire (Stuart Era) losses. There was risk of piracy, so some of the losses were man-made, but prior to the Industrial Revolution technological risk was solved by lack of progress.
Experimental results from getting a 3yo interested in technology:
1. I bought her a little broom, which she liked, and then showed her that our robot vacuum could do the same work automatically, After a year she’s still not totally comfortable with the sound, and gets scared when it’s going towards her. Best decision we made was getting a model that did /not/ have a mobile app, instead using a remote control (I believe it was this model: https://us.eufy.com/products/t2108124?ref=navimenu_2_2_4_1_img). She has learned to walk over to the shelf, find the button which makes it return home, and carefully watch it until it docks. I stress that, even when it feels scary to her, she’s always in control because she can find the remote.
2. Assembled a LEGO-like robot dog after she got excited seeing one on YouTube, but again it was too loud for her, and she gets very skittish when a device is moving towards her.
3. She enjoys asking questions to Bing Chat. I hold up my phone and turn on Siri dication, which she’s learned to recognize. She asks her question and I use the keyboard to clean up the text, then submit. I read her the output. She mostly asks under-specified questions about plot points in her favorite books, but doesn’t mind that the answers are basically a re-hash of a given character’s Wikipedia page. She’s never gotten interested in image generation, contra my expectations, mostly DALL-E can’t do specific characters (I haven’t tried the others).
This book is “for babies” but it’s probably just about right for a 3yo. It is the best “STEM for babies” book I have ever seen, maybe the only one I really like: https://computerengineeringforbabies.com/
I don’t know exactly how seriously to take it—but I know Michael Dearing, whose site that is, and he is 100% in favor of capitalism, so… at least partially serious?
It seems a bit ahistorical to suggest that “Rome” could have industrialized by “skipping the Dark Ages” for a couple of reasons.
The list of things the Romans didn’t have is almost entirely composed of “Dark Age” inventions.
And, although the city of Rome fell, the imperial capital had already moved to Constantinople. The Roman empire continued to develop new technology for many centuries. (Although for peculiar historical reasons we start calling the Roman empire “Byzantium” at that point.)
Consider reading “Cathedral, Forge, and Waterwheel” by Frances Gies and Joseph Gies for a more realistic view of progress in the period after the Roman empire moved its capital to Constantinople.
What a great article! I think it’s so important to have specific historical examples of how technology impacted jobs, vs. speculating in a vacuum. Your emphasis on culture and dynamism is especially on point:
”For coal miners, for example, this would mean job training programs[23] that widen the aperture of cultural pride from providing coal to providing energy, even in the energy forms that will win the future. It also means reusing physical infrastructure when possible, such as the recent Berkshire Hathaway effort to convert a West Virginia coal plant into a nuclear power plant.[”
Focusing on the upside or “widening the aperture” of work people consider will matter a lot, as will just being open to change (vs. using regulation to stop it before we even fully understand it).
This also reminded me of a study that analyzed the impact of AI on taxi drivers. The key finding was that AI helped less experienced/less skilled drivers be more productive—rather than replacing drivers wholesale: ”. We find that AI improves drivers’ productivity by shortening the cruising time, and such gain is accrued only to low-skilled drivers, narrowing the productivity gap between high- and low-skilled drivers by 14%. The result indicates that AI’s impact on human labor is more nuanced and complex than a job displacement story, which was the primary focus of existing studies.”
I realize I’m a little late to ask this, but have you thought about how to license the resulting works? There is significant long-term value in putting them under a free license (such as CC BY-SA 4) as it enables further proliferation and reuse by others who want to provide information about those inventions; but the contract with the artist might need to specify that it allows for that kind of reuse.
Very fun piece. It might be interesting to take a longer view. I’m under the impression that pre 10k BC, with small populations and limited “researchers,” technologies were occasionally lost. Famously, the ability to make fire and to fish might have been lost in Tasmania. So is it a (the?) core fact of civilization that we are able to accumulate technology while losing essentially none of it.
Thanks! I think your view of small prehistoric groups is correct, although I learned while researching this post that the loss of fire in Tasmania is probably false (or at least controversial). However, the aboriginal Tasmanians do seem to have lost various other hunting and fishing technologies.
Focus will be on the actual arguments in section on optimization pressure, since that seems to be the true objection here—previous sections seem to be rhetoric and background, mostly accepting the theoretical basis for the discussion.
I take it this essay presumes that the pure version of the argument is true—if you were so foolish as to tell a sufficiently capable AGI ‘calculate as many digits of Pi as possible’ with no mitigations in place, and it has the option to take over the world to do the calculation faster, it’s going to do that.
However I interpret you as saying in practice, that wouldn’t happen, because practical considerations and countermeasures? Is that right?
I take the quoted sections here to be the core arguments:
It’s true that you can’t get the coffee if you’re dead. But that doesn’t imply that any coffee-fetching plan must include personal security measures, or that you have to take over the world just to make an apple pie. What would push an innocuous goal into dangerous power-seeking?
The only way I can see this happening is if extreme optimization pressure is applied. And indeed, this is the kind of example that is often given in arguments for instrumental convergence.
...
But why would a system face extreme pressure like this? There’s no need for a paperclip-maker to verify its paperclips over and over, or for a button-pressing robot to improve its probability of pressing the button from five nines to six nines.
More to the point, there is no economic incentive for humans to build such systems. In fact, given the opportunity cost of building fortresses or using the mass-energy of one more star (!), this plan would have spectacularly bad ROI. The AI systems that humans will have economic incentives to build are those that understand concepts such as ROI. (Even the canonical paperclip factory would, in any realistic scenario, be seeking to make a profit off of paperclips, and would not want to flood the market with them.)
The implication here is that there are reasons not to do power seeking or too much verification—it’s dangerous, it’s expensive and it’s complicated. To overcome the optimization pressures acting against doing that, you’d need to exert even more powerful pressure to do it, which wouldn’t be present if you had a truly bounded goal that already had e.g. p~0.99 of happening if you didn’t do that. Because the risk of disruption, or the cost in resources, exceeds the gain from power seeking.
Let’s consider the verification question first. If you give me affordances, and then reward me based purely on a certain outcome, we agree I’ll use those affordances as best I can even if the gains are minimal. A common version of this is someone going over their SAT answers for the sixth time, because the stakes are so high, so might as well use all the time given to you. There are always students who will use every second you give them, they’d fall asleep at their desk if you let them then wake up and keep trying.
The question is, why in practice wouldn’t you stop at a reasonable point given the cost? That ‘reasonable’ is based on the affordances given, and what terms you effectively built into the reward function. Sure, if you put in a cost term, at some point it stops verifying, but you have to put in the cost term, or it will keep verifying. If you didn’t say exactly 32 paperclips or make it deliver you exactly the 32, it will make 32,000 paperclips instead because that is a good way to ensure you made 32 good ones, etc.
Thus your defense is to start with a bounded goal ‘make 32 paperclips’ or ‘fetch me the coffee.’ Then you put in penalty terms—asymmetrical ones I hope! - for things like costs and impacts. That could work.
You still have to worry that there will be a ‘way around’ those restrictions. For example, if there’s a way to make money that can then be spent, or otherwise gain power or capabilities in a net profitable way, and this is allowed without penalty, suddenly there’s a reason to go maximalist again, and why not? It’s certainly what I would do. Or if sufficient power lets it change the rules around its reward, of course. Or if there’s a way to specification game that you didn’t anticipate. Again, what I would look to do.
It is not trivial to specify exactly what you want here, but yes it is possible to prevent IC this way in a given case. The problem is, as the affordances and capabilities of the system increase, the attractiveness of these alternative strategies and its ability to find them increases, and your attempts to block them become more likely to fail—not that it’s impossible in theory to solve the issue in any given case.
The other problem is that if some people solve this problem, while others do not, some systems will seek power and others will not seek power, which does not solve our collective problem at all. The systems that don’t seek power quickly become irrelevant. And this is a strong argument, from the perspective of such a system and for its owner, for seeking power. If you intend to kill me to ensure you can fetch your boss’ coffee, then I cannot sit on my hands and be a humble assistant, or I will fail.
With fully maximalist goals you are in much deeper trouble, and often people give AIs maximalist goals—the most clicks or engagement, the most profits or paperclips, and so on. Then what do you actually want to happen?
Often the best way to do something really will be to seek power, or humans do choose this on reflection.
(E.g. IRL: Oil companies overthrow governments, people fight world wars in order to ensure their freedom on their farm or to implement their favorite distribution of resources, people engage in grand conspiracies or globe-spanning decades-long epic quests to win someone’s heart, wreck entire industries in order to protect a handful of jobs, work every day their entire lives to earn more money without ever having a plan to spend it, etc)
Most people spend most of their time pursuing instrumental goals—power, money, knowledge, skills, influence and so on. If you tell a system to ‘make the most money’ as many people will, what happens? It’s not that easy to put in sufficient correction terms, and when you do, you really do hurt the capabilities of the system to achieve the goals specified.
(Happy to do a call, I deleted like 3 attempts on this, and higher bandwidth / feedback likely helps here)
Meta-level: I think to have a coherent discussion, it is important to be clear about which levels of safety we are talking about.
Right now I am mostly focused on the question of: is it even possible for a trained professional to use AI safely, if they are prudent and reasonably careful and follow best practices?
I am less focused, for now, on questions like: How dangerous would it be if we open-sourced all models and weights and just let anyone in the world do anything they wanted with the raw engine? Or: what could a terrorist group do with access to this? And I am not right now taking a strong stance on these questions.
And the reason for this focus is:
The most profound arguments for doom claim that literally no one on Earth can use AI safely, with our current understanding of it.
Right now there is a vocal “decelerationist” group saying that we should slow, pause, or halt AI development. I think this argument mostly rests on the most extreme and IMO least tenable versions of the doom argument.
With that context:
We might agree, at the extreme ends of the spectrum, that:
If a trained professional is very cautious and sets up all of the right goals, incentives and counter-incentives in a carefully balanced way, the AI probably won’t take over the world
If a reckless fool puts extreme optimization pressure on a superintelligent situationally-aware agent with no moral or practical constraints, then very bad things might happen
I feel like we are still at different points in the middle of that spectrum, though. You seem to think that the balancing of incentives has to be pretty careful, because some pretty serious power-seeking is the default outcome. My intuition is something like: problematic power-seeking is possible but not expected under most normal/reasonable scenarios.
I have a hunch that the crux has something to do with our view of the fundamental nature of these agents.
… I accidentally posted this without finishing it, but honestly I need to do more thinking to be able to articulate this crux.
I think it’s an important crux of its own which level of such safety is necessary or sufficient to expect good outcomes. What is the default style of situation and use case? What can we reasonably hope to prevent happening at all? Do our ‘trained professionals’ actually know what they have to do, especially without being able to cheaply make mistakes and iterate, if they do have solutions available? Reality is often so much stupider than we expect.
Saying ‘it is possible to use a superintelligent system safely’ would, if true, be highly insufficient, unless you knew how to do that, were willing to make the likely very very large performance sacrifices necessary (pay the ‘alignment tax’) in the face of very strong pressures, and also ensure no one else did it differently, and that this state persists.
Other than decelerationists, I don’t see people proposing paths towards keeping access to such systems sufficiently narrow, or constraining competitive dynamics such that people with such systems have the affordance to pay large alignment taxes. If it is possible to use such systems safely, that safety won’t come cheap.
I do think you are right that we disagree about the nature of such systems.
Right now, I think we flat out have no idea how to make an AGI do what we’d like it to do, and if we managed to scale up a system to AGI-level using current methods, even the most cautious user would fail. I don’t think there is a ‘power-seeking’ localized thing that you can solve to get rid of this, either.
But yeah, as for the crux it’s hard for me to pinpoint someone’s alternative mindset on how these systems are going to work, that makes ‘use it safely’ a tractable thing to do.
Throwing a bunch of stuff out there I’ve encountered or considered, in the hopes some of it is useful.
I think you’re imagining maybe some form of… common sense? Satisficing rather than pure maximization? Risk aversion and model uncertainty and tail risk concerns causing the AI to avoid disruptive actions if not pushed in such directions? A hill climbing approach not naturally ‘finding’ solutions that require a lot of things to go right and that wouldn’t work without a threshold capabilities level (there’s a proof I don’t have a link to atm that gradient descent almost always will find the optimal solution rather than get stuck in a local optima but yeah this does seem weird)? That the AI will develop habits and heuristics the way humans do that will then guide its behavior and keep things in check? That it ‘won’t be a psychopath’ in some sense? That it will ‘figure it out we don’t want it to do these things’ and optimize for that instead of its explicit reward function, because that was the earlier best way to maximize its reward function?
I don’t put actual zero chance some of these things could happen, although in each case I can then point to what the ‘next man up’ problem is down the line if things go down that road...
Great article, i’ve been trying lower the technical bar to entry in creating and testing BCI pipelines with LSL enabled devices by creating my new python backage PyBCI (https://github.com/LMBooth/pybci). It’d be great to get feedback or input from like minded people looking to create similar technologies.
Thanks, this is useful! I know the Convergent folks but wasn’t aware of Speculative Technologies. The article looks interesting but is, unfortunately, paywalled/sign-up-walled.
I don’t think most of these “next einstein” arguments prove what you think they do.
If you want to increase the chances of string theory breakthroughs, you want to find the sort of people that have a high chance of understanding string theory, and push them even further. If any genetic component is relatively modest, then it becomes mostly pick someone, and throw lots of resources at educating them. If genetics or randomness control a lot, but are easily observed, then it’s looking out for young maths prodigies and helping them.
Ensuring widely spread education is more about the people making lots of small ideas rather than the lone geniuses. It’s getting people from being peasant farmers to codemonkey programmers.
This feels like a failure at actually engaging with the views you are purporting to criticize. If someone believes AGI will likely kill every living being, exactly what benefits should they consider to ensure that the evaluation is balanced? That our last couple years will be marginally more comfortable? How should the solutionist approach look?
This essay was written not written for the doomers. It was written for the anti-doomers who are inclined to dismiss any concerns about AI safety at all.
I may write something later about where I agree/disagree with the doom argument and what I think we should actually do.
Yes, certainly! But that point isn’t relevant to the point I’m making here. And emphasizing that point as a way of arguing against AI risk itself is one of the things I’m discouraging. It would be like responding to concerns about drug safety by saying “but drugs save lives!” Yes, of course they do, but that isn’t relevant to the question of whether drugs also pose risks, and what we should do about those risks.
Why would it not be relevant to the question? What’s the value of only looking at eliminating the potential risk?
Regulating a technology is not just about eliminating the risks of it but about reducing the risks to some extentwhile still enabling the upside. the upsides need to be clearly analyses and acknowledged.
Certainly. You need to look at both benefits and costs if you are talking about, for instance, what to do about a technology—whether to ban it, or limit it, or heavily regulate it, or fund it / accelerate it, etc.
But that was not the context of this piece. There was only one topic for this piece, which was that the proponents of AI (of which I am one!) should not dismiss or ignore potential risks. That was all.
Not just “safety is good”, but: (1) safety is a part of progress, rather than something opposed to it and (2) optimists should confront risks and seek solutions, rather than downplaying or dismissing them.
Thanks Jason for the article, I think it’s a useful lens for looking at the past.
The idea of having the right economic conditions for progress and invention reminded me of what Bill Gates calls the “Green Premiums” for the changes we need to make to move away from higher emissions (I imagine others have made the point before). Gates’s argument is that we need to create the right environment to “prime” the world for investing and creating these more sustainable technologies, and it seems like a proactive way that one may try to recreate the an Industrial Revolution Britain. (Whether it would work or not is a different matter!)
In the modern era, we can trace the history of elite universities from Germany to the United Kingdom, and up to today in the American northeast and Bay Area.
What do you mean by elite universities in Germany? In the UK there’s a sharp difference between an elite university like Oxford and Cambridge and the rest that doesn’t exist in Germany.
As the saying goes, talent is equally distributed, but opportunity is not.
Why just assert that this is true without providing any arguments about why you think it’s true?
The point on elite universities is distinctly about how these epicenters have shifted over time, not a snapshot in time today. Germany was home to the world leading higher education institutions in the 19th century. One example, from mathematics—over the years the University of Göttingen was home to Gauss, Riemann, Hilbert, von Neumann, and others. The book cited, “Empires of Ideas”,gets into this evolution and global movement of modern universities.
On the point of talent being equally distributed, I think this is both self-evident and substantiated by many examples and the data. One example that is quite familiar is the proliferation of Indian immigrants now running the global technology companies. A empirical point is the paper we cite on IMO scores, which highlights the existence of talent and the subsequent limitations of opportunity: “an equally talented teenager with the same IMO score born in a low-income country produces 30% fewer publications and receives 50% fewer citations than a participant from a high-income country.”
On the point of talent being equally distributed, I think this is both self-evident and substantiated by many examples and the data. One example that is quite familiar is the proliferation of Indian immigrants now running the global technology companies. A empirical point is the paper we cite on IMO scores, which highlights the existence of talent and the subsequent limitations of opportunity: “an equally talented teenager with the same IMO score born in a low-income country produces 30% fewer publications and receives 50% fewer citations than a participant from a high-income country.”
IMO scores don’t help either, they sample people from the edge of the distribution and may be more representative of “talent” (which PISA and PIRLS are not designed to show), and even still we see similar variation. Your quote of an “an equally talented teenager...” assumes the conclusion (comparing people of equal measured ability), as there are countries with 230m people which always get outscored by a large amount than countries with 5m people. An economic model again doesn’t predict UAE, or North Korea (which does very, very well, scoring one place behind South Korea in 2019 and 2015). Again pointing against an equal distribution.
It’s easy to disprove an equal distribution; however, it’s also very easy to disprove a distribution that closely fits opportunities (say, measured by economic development).
I’d also like to note that IMO performance is a strong but quite noisy signal of top talent distribution, due to some countries’ educational and career systems not particularly caring about it (France comes to mind); some countries kneecapping their performance on purpose (China doesn’t let anyone participate twice), and the cultural importance of high-school competitions varying between countries.
We see Asian American’s overrepresented in some metrics such SAT scores and see them overrepresented in tech employment. There overrepresentation is not a sign of equal distribution.
It could just be that Asian parents encourage their children to study in a way that builds specific talents that are useful for success at global technology companies.
The claim that talent is equally distributed means that talent is both independent from cultural upbringing and of genetics and not supported by finding a single demographic that does well at something.
When it comes to innovation it’s worth noting as well that having different talents as other people is useful for innovation.
The demand side of innovation has been highlighted many times in the past. As Liebenstein put it “The knowledge may have been there already and a change in circumstances induced the change in technique”. More generally the Boserup hypothesis sets out how agricultural innovation is driven by increasing population densities. Adam Smith made the same point in his discussion of agriculture in the American colonies. That these ideas not widely known, or just forgotten, reflects how much more attractive people find the silver bullet, hero-inventor story of innovation. And how much more useful those ideas are for politicians.
I think what Allen probably added was a more quantitative investigation of this idea. He gathered the price data for fuel, labor, capital, etc. and did the analysis of rates of profit and return on investment.
Not sure if this is quite what you are looking for, but I’ve been keeping a list of progress-related museums that I have visited or want to visit, large or small, including:
Wages are both about productivity and about how much value workers capture of their work. I asked GPT4 for the factors of why London grew in the 16th century and one of the reasons it comes up with is:
Dissolution of the Monasteries: When Henry VIII dissolved the monasteries in the 1530s, vast amounts of land and wealth were redistributed, often ending up in the hands of the mercantile class in London. This led to further growth and development in the city.
Monks at monasteries were a class of people that were very poorly paid. GPT4 describes the economic effects further as:
Economic Shift: The dissolution of the monasteries led to significant economic changes. The rural economy, in particular, was affected, as monasteries had been major landowners and employers. After dissolution, many former monastic lands were converted into profitable sheep pastures, contributing to the growth of the wool trade, but also leading to rural displacement and unrest, a phenomenon known as the enclosure movement. Furthermore, the dissolution ended the monasteries’ roles in providing social services such as healthcare and education, which had to be taken over by other institutions or simply vanished, leading to increased poverty and suffering among the poor.
One other factor, which I would class under demand factors: at each stage of the industrial revolution, you need to have enough demand for the primitive early version of your new technology, so that people will use it, iterate on it, and develop it.
You write “early Newcomen engines consumed ~45 pounds of coal per horsepower-hour; the most efficient engines of the late 1800s used less than one pound.” But to get to those efficient engines, it had to be worth someone’s while to use the very inefficient early Newcomen’s engines, so that there was a version 1 which could be iterated into the 1lb/hp-hour version.
Bret Devereaux has an argument that this was specific to Britain, whose geology happens to contain lots of coal mines which were prone to flooding. (I recommend reading the whole thing.) So the very first use of a steam engine was to pump water out of coal mines. Because the use case was literally at the coal mine, there were zero transport costs for the coal (a major consideration in an era before railroads and steamships). The very inefficient Newcomen engines still raised more coal than they burned, which would otherwise have been inaccessible, so there was an economic use for them. The UK by this point had already cleared most of its forests, so there was demand for coal (not necessarily true in earlier periods). And the higher wages in England, which you discuss, meant it was cheaper to pump the water with steam engine than with muscle power even where muscle power was technically practical. His argument is effectively that without all of these factors, the very inefficient early steam engines would not have been economic, so no one would have iterated on them.
I don’t think this is the only factor—you/Allen have gone through a lot of others, which also make sense. But I think it’s worth considering that part of the answer to ‘why did the Industrial Revolution start in England?’ is geological accident.
Thanks! Yes, this is definitely part of Allen’s argument (maybe I should make that more clear).
I’ve been meaning to read that Devereaux post/series for a while, thanks for reminding me of it.
However, I don’t you think can argue from “the Industrial Revolution got started in this very specific way” to “that is the only way any kind of an IR could ever have gotten started.” If it hadn’t been flooded coal mines in Britain, there would have been some other need for energy in some other application.
I see it more as: you develop mechanization and energy technology once you reach that frontier—once your economy hits the point where that is the best marginal investment in development. Britain was one of the most advanced economies, so it hit that frontier first.
Nice post! Seems like a really important but unsexy thing to understand / improve regulation. It’s a shame to be limited not by technical problems but by misaligned orgs. It’s like stunted growth due to malnourishment
So true, Tony! Finding ways to creatively bring the study of human progress into schools is important, for so many reasons. It will be fun to work through the specifics on how we can make this happen—and to think specifically about how this teaching can inspire kids.
I have been following this for years, but the project does not progress very much (there are more machines, but the community has not grown). The village set would be both useful for civilization RE-construction and for civilization (First) construction in poor countries. In my first post in the EA Forum I tried to produce some interest either in this project or some susbtitute, because no other open source project could be more useful.
The Manual For Civilization is working toward a living, crowd-curated library of 3,500 books put forward by the Long Now community and on display at The Interval.
On my opinion there are several adaptation-related factors which act differently in different times and circumstances. The newest most important now seems to be fear based on ignorance and, well, weak congintive abilities (50 years ago it was called stupidity...). COVID had demonstrated how quickly the mob requires and demands to stop, to shut down, to close and to lock everything and everywhere. Rational thinking was not applied. Mob is not 100% of population but it’s formed by it’s share large enough to push the states to act in certain direction. Discussion was not possible, the mob had to study the whole texbooks first. Social media, press news cycles (this is not an exlcusive list!) amplify fears, forecasts of soon imminent extinction and organise and agitate the mob. How the people will react to really fast changes like, say, automated finances system replacing accountants and whole finance departments everywhere? Film “Interstellar” gives a good picture how it may happen (“We were never in space and we definitely do not talk with children aboit things that sinful”). Such factor sure always existed but now it’s qualitatively stronger. At times and situations it may amd probably will reverse, well, at least local progresses in certain fields if not the whole way how we do things.
This post lists technical/material/institutional adaptations, which do indeed seem to be happening faster.
But the quote from Toffler is primarily concerned with our impending psychological breakdown in the face of rapid change, evidence of which I see everywhere.
I am a yoga teacher, so I work intimately with many actual humans. I mostly teach upper-middle class educated folks, and they’re not doing great, mental health-wise. Too much information, too much stimulation, too much choice. We have yet to develop adequate “mental hygiene” practices for dealing with the god-like powers that our smartphones give us.
Thus, I think that alongside calls for more investment in techno-scientific progress, we desperately need to prioritize the development of better mental health practices and cultural values—some of which may look a lot like older ways of living (like Jason hints at in Learning With My Hands). Just giving everyone a meditation app to help them feel better about their desperate loneliness isn’t going to cut it.
I am contemplating applying for the writing fellowship program to follow this line of argument further. Interested to hear if others resonate with it.
But to summarize, as economic development advances, more people can spend more time inventing cleaner and better ways to do things, and industrial and economic development makes clean energy cheaper to deploy.
I thought I’d post this here as the program content is partially inspired by Progress Studies (the unofficial working title even was ‘Progress Fellowship’ for a while!). Hope it’s helpful!
I bet GPT-4 could already do a lot of this work, perhaps with some fine-tuning and/or careful prompt engineering.
The problem with automating compliance documents is not just the time/effort to prepare them. It’s also the time spent waiting to get a response, and in some cases, “user fees” paid to the government to review them. If everyone started using GPT to do compliance, I suspect that the various agencies would just start to build up an ever-growing backlog of un-reviewed applications, until they’re all like immigration and they have decade-long wait times.
Also, if GPT-4 raises the “productivity” of environmental impact statement, my guess is that they could only increase productivity so long as there is not broad awareness and acceptance of the technology in writing the statements. If GPT-4 becomes the standard in writing statements, then expectations for the length and breadth of the statements have the potential to rise as well.
It really depends on your technique. If you are doing CRISPR microinjection (which is very simple, and you should probably not do, because there are other better techniques) then there will likely be off-target mutations. However, in other techniques, you can do quality control, screening, and sequencing before the cells divide or before the embryo implants etc. There are lots of quality control things that can be done which haven’t been done yet for human embryo modification.
How many IQ points could be gained with just embryo selection?
It depends on how many embryos you have available. For a normal round of IVF, you’re only looking at like 8 embryo choices. It depends on the parents as well. If they don’t have the mutations in the first place, then there’s nothing to select. I actually think memory is something that should be easier to test for and figure out. If we really wanted to figure out biological intelligence, then we should run a long-term large-scale animal breeding experiment where we try to breed an animal for higher intelligence. We have never done that before, ever. ((Dogs don’t count here. Working dogs have specific jobs and while that’s smarter, it’s not the same thing as selecting for overall general intelligence. I’d imagine that kind of dog would be disruptive in the farm work environment anyway… especially an intermediate along the way to higher intelligence.))
how many IQ points could a “CRISPR-baby” gain with modern technology?
If by “CRISPR baby” you mean “every available means” and not specifically “CRISPR microinjection”, then I think there’s some IQ points, like the copy number variation one that showed an increase of 2-3 IQ points per copy, but I think we can get some good results even without focusing on IQ. For example, with short sleep you can dramatically increase the number of useful waking hours throughout an entire lifespan. There’s also a single mutation that seems likely to improve working memory capacity by 19-21% which is quite useful.
How much of an issue is the “causal tagging problem” (i.e. knowing that the genes you’re editing actually increase intelligence)?
I am not that big on “polygenic traits modified through hundreds/thousands of point mutations”. I think there are other interesting things to do. For example, what if we worked on allowing the neurons to double one more time before becoming post-mitotic? There are other things for us to look at, I think, other than GWAS studies.
It’s interesting how many of these questions are about regulators. I wouldn’t have expected that. I think that what’s most important is progress, innovation, followed by safety and quality assurance testing, and then getting things out into the markets, followed by fitting it into the forms that regulators expect & working with regulators to create a sane environment for innovation.
Having worked in regulated fintech, I strongly believe that the only way to do good work is by doing good high quality work. Yeah, sure, sometimes you luck out and you get a regulator that understands what’s going on and how to do things well. But often you just get precautionary principle stuff from the regulators instead of good help doing QA/testing. Sometimes you can impress them with systems that aren’t archaic/legacy and they appreciate the effort you put into doing things well with modern tooling, even if it doesn’t conform to the archaic expectations enforced by other regulators. etc. There’s some hope here, but not a lot.
What brings me some hope is to think about permissionless innovation. Ultimately you don’t have to ask for permission to start a family or birth a new child. Biology is the north star of decentralization. Every single person is a biological lifeform with their own cellular material and DNA. Technological progress means turning our intelligence and thoughts inward and modifying our DNA and our self-defining programs over time. This is not even a matter of free speech, it is a matter of personal agency and freedom to try to fix ourselves or be better or achieve whatever other goals we each have for ourselves and our futures.
At the end of the day, you really don’t want a totalitarian government regulating people such that they can’t move forward and self-actualize. Thankfully biology is already pretty decentralized and widely available. DNA is one of the most successful technologies of all time.
Hi. Maybe ten years ago, thanks to your role in maintaining #hplusroadmap, you seemed to me a leader of a new generation in transhumanism. Since then, while technology has kept advancing, and various futurist dreams have remained alive, I feel that “transhumanism” as a movement or subculture or identity, lost some of its momentum and its avantgarde character. One way to put it, is that in the 1990s there was a transhumanist futurism centered on Eric Drexler and nanotechnology, but in the 2010s it was eclipsed by the rationalist futurism centered on Eliezer Yudkowsky and artificial intelligence. Of course there have been many many other movements, personalities, and technologies of interest; but I think one could tell a plausible story about the radical techno-futurism of recent decades, in which a cultural transition from transhumanism to rationalism, is at the heart of the narrative.
Meanwhile, your own bio says that you got heavily into crypto, something I never got into, but which went from a “cypherpunk” fantasy, to a headline phenomenon, and ultimately to a financial ecosystem with a nominal worth of something like a trillion US dollars, and which, pardon my bluntness, seems to be riddled with at least as much hype, scamming, and corruption, as anything in mainstream finance. I would be interested to know how the recent history of transhumanism and futurism looks, from the perspective of someone who took your path, into the world of startups and legal commerce.
Well, look, if someone wants to join a community that is interested in building cool things then consider hplusroadmap: https://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap we recently added a discord bridge. We’ve been going for 15 years at this point. We have funding available for cool wacky projects, or for not-so-wacky projects, and people are always interested in collaborating or at least providing some input on ideas or what’s up. I think the problem is that the extropians, as much as I like them, didn’t keep going, and they didn’t continue to build or learn or educate and they ended up stagnating. At some level, maybe they were just a group writing cool emails about cool concepts they found interesting? At another level, maybe they really were the origination point of the financial singularity (bitcoin) and maybe their work with the cypherpunks on PGP and SSL and other technologies really should be attributed to the transhumanists… But for a lot of other tech (like germline engineering, human cloning, etc), we could have done this decades ago and it simply hasn’t been done yet. Why? We should encourage more people to build and work on these things. I don’t have the culture stuff solved & I’m open to ideas.
My interest in bitcoin could by some be considered a distraction from the more important projects you mention, but with regards to the scams and frauds, I’d point out that my interest has been in bitcoin- which is built by a very conservative group of programmers- and the edge between open-source permissionless innovation and figuring out how to interface with the regulated financial system. This started first with my work at LedgerX, the first CFTC-regulated bitcoin options exchange and clearinghouse, and then with the state-chartered bank in Wyoming that I co-founded. If bitcoin is going to grow and be physically accessible to the general public, then there are going to need to be regulated interfaces into the rest of the world of finance.
I know that might sound a little odd, because the wild west of bitcoin is all about decentralization and often the anarchists promote a very “screw the government” message or what not. But the reality is that only a few people can live like that, in the current environment. If you really want to impact people, there needs to be a transitory pathway available. There are trillions of dollars of financial assets operating on completely archaic systems and rails, and this directly limits our overall liquidity and financial wealth as a society. Likewise, with do-it-yourself biology and biohacking there needs to be a way to do things the right way and take things outside the system and unite them back into the global mainstream systems when the time is right.
More people should just do important things that move progress forward. Laws, policies, regulations and approvals can be figured out. I have faith in this because it’s fundamentally moral to work on making things better, even if “better” (or working on “better”) has been temporarily defined as unethical by precautionauts/precautioneers. I think that future history will show that working on technological progress is good and important.
Separately my interest in startups, writing software for income, and cryptocurrency has been that this is one way of funding all of the other cool and interesting projects for the transhumanist future. It’s kind of interesting to think that the extropians almost missed the financial singularity. Oops?
As for lesswrong.. I think Eliezer Yudkowsky and lesswrong have been something of a “false flag” of technological acceleration. If you were a nerdy kid interested in artificial intelligence, then the watering hole on the internet that you would most likely find would eventually be lesswrong. On the surface, it looks like it has all the things you would want: people interested in talking about AI, people talking about star lifting, or black hole engineering, or total cosmological flourishing of a quadrillion quadrillion humans for the next trillion years. But the more they hang out on lesswrong, the deeper into the philosophy you dwelve, you find that it’s mostly a watering hole designed to suck people into a precautionary ideology. As I said, it’s something of an ongoing “false flag”. I think that many people could have been working on leveling up their skills and projects in biology, chemistry, mechanical engineering, rocketry, or many other subjects, and instead they get sucked into writing long posts about why we shouldn’t do anything and how dangerous it all is and how if you do the math just right there’s no reason to do anything ever or whatever. I know many of you will say this is an unfair characterization, but I really do believe that lesswrong has done more harm than good to this population that would otherwise have been working on building things.
((While I am ranting about this, I would also like to register a complaint against the form of argumentation that goes like “well if you don’t agree with us that AI x-risk is the most important totalizing thing in the world and that all of your actions should be aligned with preventing that outcome then you simply don’t understand the arguments” and I assure you I certainly do understand. I have been here for a while lol. But it’s a very effective way of dismissing people on the edge of that community who disagree. It’s a cool immune system really, you have to admire it for what it is.))
One thing that I see is that people are concerned about a loss of genetic diversity or we all become a mono-culture. I don’t see that as a reasonable fear. Have you tried to stomp out human diversity before? People are very resilient. They are creative and diverse. They will figure out all kinds of new weird forms and ways to live, even if you don’t like it. Only way I see a mono-culture is if we somehow have a world government enforcing it or something, and why would we want that anyway?
Human and agricultural work is held back somewhat. Golden rice was actually rather simple but the biologists took 14 years of safety testing before it was deployed. Several million people went blind in the meantime. This was completely avoidable. GMO rice is not going to take over the world and should not require 14 years of “safety testing”. The precautionary principle gives people brain worms. Not the fun genetically modified kind of brainworms either.
Regulation in general holds back a lot of progress in biology. During the pandemic, the FDA suspended the rules and suddenly we had extremely rapid innovation. When they suspended the rules, I thought that was ridiculous. If we know the rules are wrong and broken, then we should get rid of the rules, not have a temporary suspension.
With the excess regulation, you also end up increasing the cost of getting drugs or other things to market and as a result you cut off the lower end of the market. This increases the costs and then investors need to get even higher returns in order to recoup investment.
There is a competitive market for investment yield and regulation sort of shapes the kind of yields that you can get in biotech. As a result, money flowing into biotech innovation is pretty constrained, even if the money is available and people are theoretically interested in funding these kinds of things.
There is definitely a bizarre social taboo surrounding the pursuit of some of these projects. Another constraint is that even if someone is doing the work, they can’t exactly be public especially in germline because the privacy of the child is of utmost importance.
Researchers in academia are mostly focused on grants for curing various diseases because that’s what appeals to the appetite of federal funding agencies and the philanthropic organizations. The academic biologists tend to be extremely sensitive to public opinion because the public controls much of the federal funding. As a result, they have felt the burn from the anti-GMO people and the attempts at stopping embryonic stem cell research. They absolutely do not want further prohibitions on research and they worry about people outside of academia doing things that cause a backlash on federal funding of researchers.
Thankfully, you don’t need to do this work inside of academia.
Focusing on diseases will never lead to extremely cheap interventions; there’s simply not enough sick people with the same problem. Nobody really focuses on enhancements. As a result, costs are going to remain high because the market for a specific disease can be incredibly small. Meanwhile the market for general broad spectrum mass market enhancement has a potential population of almost 8 billion people.
I also think that biologists don’t paint that interesting of a future. They usually talk about curing diseases but don’t have any vision beyond that point. What are we going to do after we cure all diseases? The silicon people have visions of computronium painting the universe. The biologists don’t really promote visions of a flourishing biosphere across the entire cosmos or some other moral vision for progress.
There’s some good news though. Since not everyone is working on the ambitious projects, there’s lots of low-hanging fruit available. I think there’s enough people working on curing all diseases or ending aging/anti-aging/longevity. Other ambitious projects include intelligence/memory enhancement, protein engineering, molecular nanotechnology, the complete control over cellular morphological form, brain preservation, brain uploading, cryonic preservation and resuscitation, etc. (I will also note here that longevity is getting lots of attention, but not as much for young people or germline; older people in my opinion might already be aged and that might be irreversible with technology in the next 30-50 years for all I know). I think we should be very excited about the future and work on really hard, important technologies. I think sometimes people might get complacent because it’s hard to realize that just several hundred generations ago we were all completely destitute and barely picking ourselves up out of the mud. We aren’t that far from where we came from. We absolutely must accelerate.
I would also say that there isn’t really VC for ambitious biotech. The way that VC works in biotech is that it’s mostly about funding the professor and his 12 postdocs that invented something (call it X) and then they spin out of a university and you fund the company doing X. That’s basically the main model. It doesn’t leave a lot of room for biology projects that aren’t spin outs. “Techbio” has been a recent improvement but it seems to be a lot of software startups? I’m not sure.
On longevity, I should add that I think more people working on ending aging would be good. In the past 5-10 years a lot more companies and funds have formed around longevity so that’s very exciting to see. But admittedly we don’t have an over-abundance of people working on extreme aging interventions; maybe a few million more people would be good to work on that problem?
What are the best near-term/foreseeable applications of genetic engineering? What is the low-hanging fruit here that we can see and define and should go after first?
Related factors: it appears that harms due to technological change are much smaller than benefits due to technological change, and also much smaller than harms that we already suffer on an ongoing basis (like deaths due to disease).
Slightly tangentially: I have so many questions about that Irish population graph, like:
-- That is a huge population growth rate between 1800 and 1840 before the famine. What was going on there? I graphed it vs a few other European countries and while many of them were growing steadily during that period, nobody else had that high a percentage of growth (54% growth in 40 years if I’m doing the math right) except the UK, which has a crazy quick and apparently unrelated knee upward in the graph in 1810-1820. Was that just a time when both Ireland and the now-UK lands escaped the Malthus trap sooner than everyone else?
-- Then after the famine deaths and emigration wave, there’s a long steady decline that seems to be levelling off around 1920-- but then drops again, quite quickly, so that the population declines another 25% or so between 1920 and 1930. I can’t help thinking it must be related somehow to the Irish Free State gaining independence in 1922; but if OWiD had suddenly stopped counting the Northern Ireland population as part of Ireland at that date, I’d expect an even more abrupt decline. Was it emigration of the Protestant minority in the south to the UK? Economic hardship associated with independence? Something else?
I am commenting as someone who has spent a lot of time thinking about AI alignment, and considers themselves convinced that there is a medium probability (~65%) of doom. I hope this is not intrusive on this forum!
I hadn’t considered the crux to be epistemic, which is an interesting and important point.
I would be interested in an attempt to quantify how slowly humanity should be moving with this: Is the best level comparable to the one with genetic engineering, or nuclear weapon proliferation? Should we pause until our interpretability techniques are good enough so that we can extract algorithms from AlphaFold2?
I am also interested in possible evidence that would convince you of the orthodox (“Bostrom-Yudkowsky”) view: what proofs/experiments would one need to observe to become convinced of that (or similar) models? I have found especially the POWER-seeking theorems and the resulting experiments enlightening.
Rather than asking how fast or slow we should move, I think it’s more useful to ask what preventative measures we can take, and then estimate which ones are worth the cost/delay. Merely pausing doesn’t help if we aren’t doing anything with that time. On the other hand, it could be worth a long pause and/or a high cost if there is some preventive measure we can take that would add significant safety.
I don’t know offhand what would raise my p(doom), except for obvious things like smaller-scale misbehavior (financial fraud, a cyberattack) or dramatic technological acceleration from AI (genetic engineering, nanotech).
What could a superintelligence really do? The prophets’ answer seems to be “pretty much anything.” Any sci-fi scenario you can imagine, like “diamondoid bacteria that infect all humans, then simultaneously release botulinum toxin.” In this view, as intelligence increases without limit, it approaches omnipotence. But this is not at all obvious to me.
The idea of creating ASI as an omnipotent being, far superior and all-knowing, strikes me as a pseudo-religious argument wrapped in technical and rational language that makes it palatable to atheists. It’s a bit like how the wildest predictions from longevity/curing aging feel a bit like heaven for people who don’t believe in god.
I get how to get from ANI to AGI and then to ASI. It makes sense. But at the same time, something about it doesn’t. Perhaps this is why this position (AGI as a harbinger for extinction) lacks mainstream appeal.
If some rogue AI were to plot against us, would it actually succeed on the first try? Even genius humans generally don’t succeed on the first try of everything they do. The prophets think that AI can deduce its way to victory—the same way they think they can deduce their way to predicting such outcomes.
Is this rationalists anthropomorphizing AI to behave/think like they thing, perhaps?
Is this rationalists anthropomorphizing AI to behave/think like they thing, perhaps?
As someone who thinks AI doom is fairly likely (~65%), I reject this as psychologizing.
I think there is an argument for TAI x-risk which takes progress seriously. The transformative AI does not need to be omnipotent or all-knowing: it simply needs to be more advanced than the capability humanity can muster against it.
Consider the United States versus the world population from 1200: roughly the same size. But if you pitted those two actors against each other in a conflict, it is very clear who would win.
So either one would need to believe that current humanity is very near the ceiling of capability, or that we are not able to create more capable beings. (Which, in narrow domains, has turned out false, and the range of those domains appear to be expanding).
If some rogue AI were to plot against us, would it actually succeed on the first try? Even genius humans generally don’t succeed on the first try of everything they do. The prophets think that AI can deduce its way to victory—the same way they think they can deduce their way to predicting such outcomes.
I claim this is not so outlandish, the current US would win against the 13th century 1000/1000 times. And here’s a fairly fine-grained scenario detailing how that could happen with a single agent trapped on the cloud.
But—it need not be that strict a framing. Humanity losing control might look muchmoreprosaic: We integrate AI systems into the economy, which then over time glides out of our control.
Great article! I think you expressed The Argument well and similarly to how I see it expressed by those who believe it.
I’m always surprised by how many tools are available to evaluate the argument…and that its fans rarely use any of them. It’s great to see you use some of these tools to critique it!
By way of comment: at the same time, your article leaves the argument looking more plausible (to me) than it probably is, just because your critiques don’t include as many angles as it might from progress studies (especially the scientific method and the history of technology). My attempted survey of the possible angles, some but not all of which you tackle:
Most catastrophic risks have a lot of evidence to tell us how much we should worry about them (the history of infectious disease outbreaks, nuclear accidents and near-accidents, etc). The argument never comes with any evidence. Worse yet, it’s rarely presented as a hypothesis to be falsified, but instead as speculation. This is especially surprising because their main catastrophic scenario is an accident, and accidents are one of the most common and well-studied kinds of risk (auto accidents, the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, airplane accidents, policies for canceling ferries in dangerously bad weather, nuclear power plant accidents, accidents involving Covid in a Wuhan laboratory vs. Wuhan seafood market, etc). Accidents are studied by all sorts of people including actuaries, government technocrats, and popular authors. Successful predictions of catastrophe (or anything) are almost always based on evidence.
More generally, the argument is usually presented without any scholarship or context outside of speculative philosophy. But there is lots of scholarship to know (beyond the above) from the histories of technology, human well-being, and predictions of apocalypse, and probably many other domains.
A cost-benefit analysis would be needed if the argument were to be made credible. Lifespans are about 35 years shorter in poor countries than they are for Japanese and Swiss women, and about 15 years longer for the richest US females than the poorest US males, so it’s a good estimate that 25+ years of life are lost by the average person due to risks that can be attacked by anti-poverty, public-health, and economic growth measures alone. Peter Attia is probably right that exercise, sleep, and food account for another 10 years. As you say, the argument glibly assumes that AI will solve pretty much any problem it needs to solve to kill us all. We have no reason to believe that, but those who do surely should also believe that the AI will solve any problem it needs to to gain that 35+ years of life for the average person among the 8 billion of us. At this rate, even Scott’s estimated 2% risk of an AI apocalypse looks like a bargain. The context provided by cost-benefit analysis also reminds us of where we ourselves should focus our attention. And of course the likely upside of AI doesn’t just depend on a glib assumption of AI capabilities — AI is a general purpose technology, so progress studies tells us something about what upside to expect.
Finally, the argument is rarely presented with a plausible mechanism.
What do you make of Eli Dourado’s take that AI probably isn’t a transformative/revolutionary tech because of regulations and the lack of innovation in physical meat-space etc? (“We wanted flying cars, and all we got was 140 characters”-kind of thing)
I guess it depends on the definition of each of these.
Empathy: No matter how advanced AI gets (true AGI or whatever) there will always be room for human <-> human empathy. AI will never truly have the same experiences as humans. It can pretend or fake like it does—and I think this could still be useful in many situations, like customer support or low-level therapy. It just wont be totally replaced by it.
Collaboration: Probably the weakest of the 3. Of course any AI can collaborate, and currently they already do. I still believe that for the near future human <-> human collaboration will be needed—i.e. we will want a “human in the loop” for some time.
Creativity: Still very much needed for the foreseeable future. LLMs, image generators, etc. very much do express creativity by combining ideas in latent space to things that are truly novel. But human brains still think (“explore possibility space”) differently, and are therefore valuable. It’s the same reason I believe having diverse intelligences (human, AI, other species, alien) is valuable. Also helps to push the boundaries of possibility space in a way that these models may have difficulty.
I’m curious your (or others) take on these though.
Agreed. And we already have fake empathy on tap in novels, tv shows, and movies. It does have it’s pleasures, but it didn’t replace us, and neither will fake empathy from bots.
Why are there so many medical studies using sloppy research methods, and how big a problem do you think this is?
I noticed this when trying to figure out how common Long Covid is—most of the studies being reported in the media, at least early on, did not have a control group. On the basis of these studies, the media was saying that Long Covid affects 30, 50, or even 60% of people who get Covid.
Many of the studies also use methods which suffer from responder bias like surveying online support groups. Studies which track cohorts over time and have a good control group find more modest figures like 10-15% of patients experiencing greater than expected symptoms at 3 months. However nearly all of these are retrospective studies which as I understand it are not as good as prospective studies. More recently a study came out which does what should be done all along—it compares outcomes of Covid patients with patients who got symptomatic non-covid upper respiratory infection. They found more symptoms in the control group than the Covid group at 3 months. This calls into question whether Long Covid is actually an actual phenomena in its own right or just another iteration of post-viral illness / post-viral chronic fatigue syndrome (see Vinay Prasad’s video).
I wonder, if low quality studies can be so misleading, is it worth doing them at all? It seems to me we should be pooling resources to do more high quality studies rather than many low quality ones.
Definitely an enormous issue! I’m not as familiar with the Long-COVID data, but the issue applies to a lot of other fields/areas.
I argue in the book that one of the most prevalent issues is linked to how researchers are incentivized to publish quickly and often. This means that studies will often tend to be under-powered (i.e., too few participants to show the ‘right’ level of statistical certainty) because it’s time-consuming to include more patients and because it’s often more expensive. The result is, as you point out, that we’re inundated with studies that don’t show much of an effect size, or at least not enough to conclude anything meaningful. Ultimately, this wastes research resources on a systems level, because one big study would have sufficed for fewer resources overall. But because it’s a publishing game, researchers aren’t incentivized to collaborate as much as we’d like from a progress perspective. In the book, I call this ‘artificial progress’, where we think we’ve learnt something new about the world (through the publishing of these studies), but ultimately we’re just misleading ourselves and need to use even more resources to clarify studies that should have been clear from the outset.
One could argue that it should ‘cost’ more for authors to submit under-powered studies to journals, since journals often accept their research despite the methodological flaws, and therefore authors aren’t penalized for this type of behavior. The journals might also prioritize interesting results over the study size being adequate – meaning that too many of these articles get published. Authors and journals ultimately both ‘win’ from this behavior.
I think this issue of sloppy research methods is probably MUCH more prevalent than we think, but I haven’t been able to find reliable sources. In the book I talk about research misconduct and fraud, where some “studies suggest that the true rate of fraud among published studies lies somewhere between 0.01% and 0.4%.” I’d suspect the rate of sloppy research methods to be many times higher than this.
“studies suggest that the true rate of fraud among published studies lies somewhere between 0.01% and 0.4%”. Even 0.4% seems drastically too low—perhaps 10 times too low. I’d be curious to see the source for this claim. An analysis by Elizabeth Bik and others found problematic image duplication in 3.8% of studies. Some of that may have been accidental, but I suspect most were intentional fraud. If ~3.8% percent of papers have this one specific type of fraud, that suggests an even larger percentage contain fraud in general. It’s extremely hard to know, though. I doubt it’s over 10% but I could easily see it being 5%, which is obviously still a massive problem.
Good question! I think we seem to be going at a steady pace, but that depends on who you ask. Ultimately, it probably depends on what your expectations are of progress; my hunch is that people have higher expectations for cancer than for other diseases, particularly since it’s received so much attention historically, and that sets us up for inevitable failure when these expectations fail to materialize – much like the ‘war on cancer’ in the latter part of the 1900’s.
Broadly speaking, one can approach this from a treatment perspective and a prevention perspective. From a treatment perspective, there is definitely progress: “Since 1971, the cancer death rate is down more than 25 percent. Between 1975 and 2016, the five-year survival rate increased 36 percent. The arsenal of anticancer therapies has expanded more than tenfold.” We’re also in a position now where immunotherapies are becoming commonplace, and the drugs are becoming highly sophisticated. I think the next big treatment frontier is figuring out how best to use the arsenal of drugs we have, i.e., can we combine therapies in such a way that our treatments become more effective. We obviously hope to keep developing breakthrough drugs, but there’s a lot of untapped potential in lower-cost solutions and re-combining cancer drugs in new ways. This would also certainly save money, but pharmaceutical companies are obviously not as interested in doing this. To sum up, I think the treatment frontier involves greater experimentation with the implementation of drugs we currently have.
I’m not as convinced that our cancer prevention progress has been as impressive, however. Obviously, we’ve gotten a lot better at identifying environmental contaminants that might increase the likelihood of developing cancer, but a lot of the lifestyle diseases (e.g., obesity) that increase the risk of cancer haven’t been solved by any means. Ultimately, preventing cancer in the first place is a lot more efficient than having to treat it later.
As the saying goes – cancer is such a heterogenous phenomenon that it might not be prudent to lump them all together. They’re so distinct that the ‘war on cancer’ is more a ‘war on many, many fronts’. We’re definitely making progress, but we shouldn’t expect a one-size-fits-all solution anytime soon.
To see the other perspective, try replacing “consumption” with food and “consumerism” with obesity. We only have 1 earth (for the foreseeable future), and rampant consumerism leads to a very inefficient conversion from its resources to value.
Also, you can still be anti-consumerism while agreeing that the global south would ideally see higher consumption. Reducing obesity doesn’t mean we shouldn’t feed the starving.
I would agree with you about growing costs for equipment in trendy “big science” (dark mater, hot fusion, gravity waves, accelerators), and I see this trend in military domain, like in IT in old-fashioned companies, like in nuclear industry… It is aggravated by a growing increase of regulation. It seems that some domains push providers to improves performances to the point nobody can buy the product, but it is really perfect. I’ve heard that for nuclear reactors (they can resist to anything, but nobody can afford them), for tanks (they are smart, agile, powerful, robust), for military drones (they can work in civil air zone, do any mission, transport much, but cost like a helicopter)...
Meanwhile, in IT I’ve seen the trend to RAID disks, to Cloud, to SaaS, while Ukraine war showed the efficiency of simpler drones, not so overengineered canons, old tanks and old planes, tinkered by motivated staffs...
Here I’ve caught an article about the cross-pollination of AI and new experimental methods, reducing costs by 10x.
It makes me think about the exponential learning curve drawn by piling S-curves… As if the end of an S curves goes to unaffordable perfect technology, and that a revolution make you start again the exponential phase of a new S-curve...
See how quickly African labs have used Crispr-CAS technology for their own needs, to fight emerging diseases or climate change in their agriculture. It was done for much cheaper than for transgenic GMOs.
Some tech, like seatbelts, are almost pure good. Some techs, like nukes are almost pure bad. Some, like cars, we might want to wait until we develop seatbelts and traffic lights for before we use widely. It depends on the technology.
Thanks for posting and considering. I agree. It would be great if more people researched this.
A simple way to start would be to study the open science hardware momentum. A few anecdotes from that scene over the past decade:
OpenROV (us) — made ROV prices >10X cheaper
Open qPCR (Chai Bio) — made qPCR multiple X cheaper
OpenTrons — made liquid handling multiple X cheaper
Cubesats (not really OSH, but similar idea) — made satellites 10x cheaper
They are all orders of magnitude more affordable, and many have completely rearranged who uses the tool, sometimes opening up big new markets. The lack of demand pull assumption should be tested.
Consumers, in the “consumerism” worldview exist only to receive goods. It’s a primarily self-centered orientation to the world, and that’s why people sneer the word with such a moralizing tone.
Imagine the opposite of consumerism is producerism. Producing time-saving conveniences, building stuff, retaining walls and, heck, even trivial trinkets. Producing is a “nice thing to do.” An active life working and valuing the things you wished you valued while helping others in the small, tedious ways that the economy rewards a person for.
But a “consumerist” is a distracted, binge-watching, GrubHub couch potato perhaps sporting a part-time BS job. People are afraid of living in a “distraction/hedonistic/morally corrupt/selfish society”. And part of the reason this objection to society comes up so much is that (probably mistakenly) they think the following:
many jobs are BS
2a) much of what people purchase is not actually valuable, only perceived as such.
2b) much of what we buy, our best selves would not.
much of what society nudges us towards (in music, in carbon emissions, in social values) is not in our own or our collective best interests.
A few different issues! I’ll preface my answer by saying that there is certainly some evidence that ‘good ideas are becoming harder to find’, meaning that the marginal effort required to discover a new drug is increasing. This isn’t an excuse for the pharmaceutical industry, but it is worth noting.
Structurally, large pharmaceutical companies take too few risks during drug development, meaning that the onus is on smaller companies and universities to develop novel products. Why so? Well in more recent times, large pharma companies have essentially offloaded a lot of their R&D in favor of simply acquiring smaller companies or the intellectual property rights to discoveries made at universities. This has been enabled by a variety of legislative changes, the most obvious one being the Bayh-Dole act in the United States (which allowed universities and institutions to acquire the rights for intellectual property generated from federal funding, which they could then sell on to companies). Of course, this seems like a logical strategy if it saves money, but from a broader drug discovery perspective, it slows the rate of progress.
A big issue with this set-up is smaller companies and universities don’t necessarily have the capital to try risk-taking, either. Universities are incentivized by a ‘publish or perish’ culture, where they are pressured to publish often, and aren’t funded to the extent that they can try out a wide range of potential drug candidates. Smaller biotech firms are also relatively cash-constrained, meaning that they might be able to focus on one (or maybe two) products simply because their cashflow is too small.
The result of this is that larger pharmaceutical companies have more liquidity and cashflow than smaller firms but aren’t willing to take risks (because they can simply acquire externally). On the flip side, smaller firms and academia are (relatively) more willing to try and develop novel products, but they are cash constrained. The overall consequence is stasis.
Other reasons could be over-regulation in certain settings (increasing the cost of getting drugs to market), broken drug markets (such as antibiotics, which I talk a lot more about in the book), and that the lowest hanging fruits have been picked (as mentioned at the start).
Some potential solutions? There are currently different drug payment models that are being tested (such as subscription models for antibiotics that is designed to make antibiotic production more lucrative), there are examples of early-stage incentives (such as Operation Warp-Speed to incentivise vaccine production during COVID-19) that might be effective, and different financing options for companies (i.e., pooling large sums together and constructing a diverse research portfolio of 50 drugs in the R&D pipeline, where only one or two need to succeed to make a profit overall). Some of the other solutions I’ll leave to be read in the book!
Two chapters spring to mind—for different reasons!
The very first chapter, “Citations as Currency”, was probably the most fun to write, mostly because friends and colleagues that have read it can identify with the themes. The chapter is concerned with how researchers attempt to accumulate ‘scientific capital’ by publishing papers and getting citations, but this ends up distorting the types of research projects we choose to pursue. I enjoyed the colleagues telling me: “yes, this is exactly how I feel!” – validating that this really is an issue.
Chapter 15, “Death of a Star // New Kids on the Block”, was also fun to write! It’s concerned with how intergenerational dynamics in scientific teams influence progress. More concretely, I look at what happens when prestigious research leaders pass away, who takes over, and the difference between experienced and younger researchers in their research habits. I didn’t know anything about this literature prior to researching for the book, so it was an eye-opener!
Speed of information transfer: There’s good reason to believe that social media rapidly increases the speed at which science can be disseminated. Ideally, this increases the rate of medical discovery by a) making us aware of what others are doing and that we can build on and b) exposing us to alternative approaches and methods from other disciplines that we can integrate into our own work. I’ve certainly benefitted greatly from being exposed to ‘random’ articles from other fields.
Epistemic disorientation: In contrast to the first point, there are potentially negative effects of social media on both the rate and direction of discovery. For example, one the main issues with social media is that we can end up inducing a type of epistemic disorientation, where there is simply too much information to make sense of anything. We experienced some of this during COVID-19, where the amount of (contrasting) information that was being published ultimately confused us more than it provided clarity. Downstream consequences of this are that we end up having to conduct research to disprove the opinions of others, rather than doing it for any scientific reasons. Various conspiracy theories circulating online, such as the link between vaccination and autism, could also waste research resources.
Hype: Social media could also overhype certain treatments (e.g., Wegovy at the moment). This could result in disproportionate amounts of funding going towards ‘trendy’ research areas, meaning that resources are detracted from potentially more pressing health areas. In the book I call this ‘scientific bubbles’, where too much capital is concentrated in a small research area; the fear is, of course, that our expectations fail to materialize – resulting in a bubble burst of confidence and a loss of public trust in science.
Definitely many other ways—but these three come to mind most immediately!
You asked for steelmanning. I speak as someone who’s much on board with much of what you say above.
For me, the key reason why I’m worried about consumerism is that it can easily become an addiction and it tempts me to give the unimportant things in life too much attention.
Imagine if someone asked why cocaine or alcohol have a bad image. Obviously, cocaine and alcohol make people happy—very much so. But they’re also addictive. What was supposed to be a tool for achieving happiness turns into a master. And then it destroys my ability to focus my full attention on the things that truly make us happy: relationships, God, achievements, nice meals, generosity, art, etc
Great points. In (good) science, scope matching is one of the most important concerns. I’ve always wondered why it doesn’t have a (widely used) name.
Scope matching failures really do come up constantly in modern criticisms of new technologies, whether it’s social media or AI. Probably happened centuries ago too
I think part of what the critics of “consumerism” are motivated by is the increased specialization of production which ensued from the Commercial and Industrial Revolutions. Instead of molding their own bowls and carving their own spoons of wood and fashioning their own stools to sit on, people bought much better and cheaper stuff from Wedgewood, Chipendale and other manufacturers. People had consumed before, but the production was invisible as it occurred in in cottages.
I think another part of what critics have in mind is that a good bit of consumption is in the form of positional goods—keeping up with the Jonses (or showing you got ahead of them). Now I think the competition for social status is a human universal and not likely to be changed by mewling moralists. I think competition by striving to get the baubles—the Ferraris, the Guccis, etc. - is far less damaging than many of the alternatives. People will compete for social status; it is simply a question of what form the competition will take. The great triumph of modernity is in replacing the quest for glory and honor with the quest for stuff.
Great post. I would add that when we talk about lifting people out of poverty we’re literally talking about increasing their consumption. Consumption is also a synonym for the economic part of well-being.
I’d venture to speculate that the main reason we aren’t better at reducing poverty, increasing middle-class well-being, making life better for families, fighting disease, and other important goals, is because we don’t pay enough attention to increasing median consumption.
For anyone who’s interested: I’ll be teaching the next cohorts of The Foundations of New York soon! It’s an accelerated introduction into NYC government/law that also touches on dependencies at the state and federal levels. Class begins in mid-April and goes through May.
How do you think that framing a discussion about the effects of future technologies as potentially leading to scenarios of existential hope as opposed to existential risk can be helpful? Or is positing a dichotomy between existential hope and risk sort of missing a key point?
That’s an interesting question and I would love to know more about what key point you think it’s missing.
I’m the meantime, here’s two things I’d say:
I do wonder how much the existing heavy focus on specific risks and worst case scenarios may end up steering us those ways. Christine Peterson recently gave the steering car analogy, i.e. that you’re not supposed to stop your car on the side of the highway because drivers automatically steer into it by looking at it. Positive directions to make progress toward can have the benefit of enticing more cooperation on exciting shared goals. A related model is perhaps is Drexler’s talk on Paretotopian Goal Alignment where points out that as automation and AI raise the stakes of cooperation the benefits of cooperating for reaping the rewards may increasingly outweigh costs of non-cooperation leaving them on the table: https://www.effectivealtruism.org/articles/ea-global-2018-paretotopian-goal-alignment
More concretely, I see differential technology development as a promising way to account for risks of technologies while proactively building safety and security enhancing technologies first. What attracted me to Foresight is that it’s comprised of a highly technical community across various domains who nevertheless care a lot about creating secure beneficial long term uses of their applications, so the DTD angle feels like a good fit and framing — at least for our community. More on DTD: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/g6549FAQpQ5xobihj/differential-technological-development
I realize now that my questions were a bit unclear. I tend to think about the world in terms of trade-offs. So my first question was really about the trade-off of thinking about the future in terms of existential hope vs existential risk.
You already addressed a key upside of thinking in terms of existential hope that I hadn’t thought of with your first point, which is that thinking of the future can create a self-fulfilling prophecy, so it’s better to have a positive vision of the future than a negative one.
My second question was mostly about my own reticence to posit trade-offs everywhere since I do it too much probably. Sometimes, there is a false dichotomy in thinking about things in dichotomous ways (“both/and” instead of “either/or”). So perhaps it’s not best to think of thinking about existential hope vs existential risk as a trade-off at all. That’s what I was getting at, about whether I was missing a key point about the way you think about this topic by trying to frame the discussion in terms of a dichotomy.
By the way, I love the idea of existential hope and think it is a beneficial concept, in part to help avoid doomerism. =)
It looks like the next major technological wave will be AI. How might this change Foresight’s plans or focus areas? Would you focus more on AI? Or, can AI help us with nanotech, longevity, etc. (and how exactly)?
In a few previous comments here, I point out how we integrate ML as a major driver of progress in our areas, e.g. such as molecular machines simulation tools, and how it affects our focus with respect to whole brain emulations. I give a longer review of how computing and AI progress affects each of our technical domains in this Breakthroughs in Computing Series by Protocol Labs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBvkFZycXRQ
With respect to Foresight’s role in safe AI progress, I think Foresight’s comparative advantage lies in bringing computer security inspired lens to AI development:
This is largely due to Foresight Senior Fellow Mark Miller, who, in 1996, gave this talk on Computer Security as the Future of Law (http://www.caplet.com/security/futurelaw), and together with Eric Drexler, published the foundational Agoric Open Systems Papers (https://papers.agoric.com/papers/), laying out a general model of cooperation enabled by voluntary rules, that applies not only to today’s human economy, but may be transferable to a future ecology, populated by human and AI intelligences.
Mark built on the Agoric papers by following the computer security thread as a necessary condition for building systems in which both humans and AIs could voluntarily cooperate. Recently this thinking culminated in Mark, Christine Peterson (Foresight’s co-founder) and me co-authoring the book Gaming the Future, focusing on specific cryptography and security tools that may help secure human AI cooperation on the path to paretotopian futures: https://foresight.org/gaming-the-future-the-book.
I think Miller’s and Drexler’s work on reframing the traditionally singleton-focused AI safety in terms of secure coordination across human and AI entities that relies on the respect of boundaries is now more relevant than ever, given A infosecurity risks, that have become a larger focus within AI alignment. I have a longer Lesswrong post on this coming next weekend.
Cryonics & nanomedicine: If we don’t reach Longevity Escape Velocity in our lifetime, some may choose cryonics as plan B. Currently, in principle a cryonics patient can be maintained in biostasis but cannot be revived. Conceptual research may explain how nanotechnology can collect information from preserved structures, compute how to fix damages and aid with repair. Rob Freitas book on this topic:https://www.amazon.com/Cryostasis-Revival-Recovery-Cryonics-Nanomedicine/dp/099681535X
Molecular Machines:
A computing room: Imagine tables become computing surfaces, and notepads, captured by overhead cameras, can become the user interface for manipulating small proteins. See Shawn Douglas and Bret Victor’s Foresight presentation: https://youtu.be/_gXiVOmaVSo?t=949
Homomorphic AI: Andrew Trask’s work on using homomorphic encryption to fully encrypt a neural network. This means the intelligence of the network is safeguarded against theft, and AI could be trained in insecure environments and across non-trusting parties. Plus, the AI’s predictions are encrypted and can’t impact the real world without a secret key, i.e. the human controlling the key could release the AI into the world, or simply individual predictions that the AI makes. See Andrew Trask’s paper: https://iamtrask.github.io/2017/03/17/safe-ai/
Ocaps & seL4 computer security: Object-capability (ocap) systems enable authorization-based access control across using rights, which grant computational objects access as well as the ability to delegate the right further. This leads to granular, scalable, secure systems. For instance, SeL4, the only operating system microkernel that withstood a series of DARPA red-teams, is using ocaps (and is also formally verified). Given recent AI infosec concerns, I would love to see more work scaling such security approaches to more complex systems. See Gernot Heiser’s Foresight presentation: https://foresight.org/summary/gernot-heiser-sel4-formal-proofs-for-real-world-cybersecurity
Hi Sam, here are two previews of projects we’re working on but which aren’t published yet.
AI-assisted tech trees enabled by Discourse graphs
Throughout 2022, we have been building technology trees to map our five interest areas; molecular nanotechnology, longevity biotechnology, neurotechnology, secure human AI interaction, and space. The goal is to help onboard new talent and funders into the fields by sketching out which required capabilities are required for the long-term goals of the field, who is working on them, and which open challenges are left to be tackled. The trees contain 50k+ nodes but the current interfaces are still pretty clunky and hard to navigate for outsiders: https://foresight.org/tech-tree
What’s new is that we’ll likely be launching a Discourse graph-enabled tech tree edition, which allows natural language question-based navigation of the trees, making the main info much easier to digest for users. In addition, a gpt integration in the tool itself can automate parts of the research process by populating entire paths of the tree automatically. For instance, when prompting the gpt integration questions such as “what are the ten main labs working on autophagy” or “what are the main technical challenges we need to solve to make progress on privacy-preserving ML?” replies relatively well matched human-generated replies, even though there is still fact-checking and completion to do. This means our tech tree architects can function as reviewers and editors, rather than research assistants combing the web from scratch, making the roadmaps more long-term sustainable.
The discourse graph editions of the trees scheduled to go live by July would allow individuals to contribute to the main trees and fork their own AI-assisted tech trees. They would also enable users to advance progress on highlighted challenges via an integrated bounty tool. Thanks to the amazing Discourse graph team for building the tool and allowing us to use it. More about how the tool works: https://protocol.ai/blog/discourse-graph-qa/
Existential Hope book
We’re currently working on a book proposal on Existential Hope to highlight alternative futures to the currently en vogue doomerism. It’s early stage but may discuss various great future scenarios, plus “eucatastrophes”, i.e. positive turning points, technologies and strategies to get there. Many of the people and resources that inspire the book can be found on: https://www.existentialhope.com
How does Foresight Institute allocate its time/effort across projects? Do you have a way of thinking about how much attention to spend on different speculative areas?
Foresight Institute was established in 1986 on the ideas discussed in Engines of Creation, Drexler, published by Eric Drexler, co-founder of Foresight. The book lays out a network of technologies that have the potential to significantly enhance the human condition, including nanotechnology, biotechnology, information technology, and cognitive science, which are interconnected with other important technologies like robotics and space exploration in complex ways.
Given the broad technology stack Engines considered, the book, and Foresight, became an early Schelling point for scientists and technologists who wanted great futures across the board of technologies.
So within this broad technology stack, we decide on our focus by weighing how much attention an issue we think of as important is already receiving with how much our community is in a position to contribute.
For instance, since our inception until today, the general field of molecular nanotechnology remains undervalued, and our community has a unique potential to contribute to it, so generally advancing the field in a beneficial direction is still where the bulk of our fellowship, prizes, workshops, and seminar strength lies.
Then, within our other technology focus areas (bio, neuro, space, secure human AI cooperation), there are often specific subdomains that are still too niche, exotic, ambitious or interdisciplinary for the mainstream of that field to address.
For instance, when potential AI race dynamics first became an issue, we used to hold annual workshops after the Bay Area EAGs, focused on AGI coordination across great powers and corporations:
At the time a lot of governance work popped up so we refocused our annual AGI-focused workshops on bridge-building between the security and AI safety communities, as a currently undervalued area that we can meaningfully contribute to given our existing strong security and cryptography community:
That being said, we’re currently reviewing whether to take up the AI coordination workshops again given timelines coming down, leading to new interest in revisiting those meetings.
Another area we’re taking up given shortening AI timeline that we think we have a comparative advantage in helping with given our AI and neurotech community is revisiting Whole Brain Emulation as a potential strategy for AI safety, leading to this 2023 workshop, chaired by Anders Sandberg, co-author of the original WBE roadmap in 2007:
Do you see most of the value/impact/benefit that the Foresight Institute produces as coming from a few key outputs, or from a larger list of projects each of which only produces a fraction of your total value? If the first, what are your key outputs?
I think Foresight’s value comes from a larger list of projects each of which has a small chance at creating a large impact. This comes mostly from the fact that we focus on advancing the beneficial use of a variety of undervalued technologies, including nano, bio, neuro, computing, and space, whose trajectory is harder to predict. We do this through early ecosystem development in these areas, that usually includes tools like our fellowships, prizes, workshops, and virtual seminars. Given that different technologies impact Given that many of the technologies are influenced by the relative speed of other technologies, they will be advancing at varying rates, and tools to accelerate them are differently useful at different stages.
For instance, for driving progress in Molecular Nanotechnology, from 1986 onward, Foresight started hosting annual technical conferences, published research papers, developed a Nanotechnology Roadmap, and launched the Feynman Prizes to award work toward molecular manufacturing.
Today, molecular nanotechnology progress is accelerating faster, largely enabled by new AI simulation tools, such as AlphaFold, Rosetta, Samson, CanDo, and more. Simulation tools, combined with progress in newer approaches to molecular nanotechnology, such as DNA origami, led tech-analysts such as Eli Durado declare that it’s Nanotechnology’s spring: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/nanotechnologys-spring
We aren’t a leading driver in each of the technological areas in particular but by providing a container that enables for multidisciplinarity across fields such as ML and molecular machines, we hope to facilitate insight and tech transfer across them.
I can also definitely say that our community remains excited about his outstanding work, such as Comprehensive AI Services, the Open Agency Architecture, Paretotopian Goal Alignment, and Molecular Nanotechnology.
Given that our main effort is to kindle beneficial innovation in undervalued technical domains of importance for the long-term future, such decisions are sometimes hard to trace but are mostly in the area of founding and funding such projects.
Through Foresight matchmaking, members have started companies (such as a carbon drawdown company co-founded by a Foresight Fellow who met their co-founder at a Foresight event and recently raised $30M in follow-on funding), new research projects (such as a major research project building LLM-enabled preference simulations of groups of people which was founded and funded at a Foresight workshop), and existing organizations receiving government funding (more than $30M for a water filtration company, and $15M for a molecular nanotechnology simulation project at a university through Foresight workshops).
Other decisions we shape involve early career path choices, with individuals joining organizations, including a neurotech FRO, several major longevity companies, and security companies, through Foresight events. In rare cases, aid career decisions more actively, for instance by providing J1 visas to promising researchers seeking to move to the US. This more tailored support is particularly prominent with younger applicants who have little default exposure to senior researchers, funders, and entrepreneurs in their domain.
Most of the EA longtermist arguments are about future people existing at all. If there’s an extinction event, there will be no future people with complex values.
Usually “optimistic news on science” means writing newspaper article that take a scientific study and misrepresent it as being more important than it really is to entertain people who like reading about science. A big part of human progress is about fixing problems and roadblocks to it.
One big undercovered progress story might be the new CTIS in the EU that became mandatory for new clinical studies at the end of last month. Clinical trials are important to advance science.
I’d love to read good reporting on CTIS that actually goes into what’s good and bad with the new system and not just reporting that’s optimistic about it.
Another interesting story that might benefit from good journalism is that the National Electric Code in the US is written by the National Fire Protection Association and thus for the interests of firefighters. It seems that they added a requirement for single module shutdown to solar cells with results in solar installation being more expensive while there’s no clear evidence that it produces a significant safety gain.
In both cases, the subject matter of how regulations relate to progress is very complex, but good reporting about those could do a lot more for progress than cheering on individual things.
Elon musk is very good at making himself the center of as many conversations about technology as possible.
He should not be taken as a source of information of any reliability.
Living on mars with tech not too far beyond current tech is like living in antarctica today. It’s possible, but it isn’t clear why you would want to. A few researchers on a base, not much else.
Think ISS but with red dust out the windows.
At some point, which might be soon or not so soon, tech is advanced enough that it becomes easy to get to mars. But at that point, traditional biological humans on mars might be stupid, compared to say self replicating robots containing computers running uploaded human minds in the asteroid belt.
A mars base is cool scifi. But it might turn into the largest white elephant in history. It doesn’t solve any obvious practical purpose in increasing human wellbeing or industrial capability.
Sure, at some point you are disassembling all the planets to build a dyson sphere. But before that, a mars landing doesn’t actually need to mean any real progress.
Thanks for your comment! The goal should be to colonize our solar system before advancing to another. Learning to develop an atmosphere would be man’s greatest achievement because then we would not be dependent on our planet but we could colonize any planet with the right composition/distance from its star etc.
Space travel is Man’s next journey and I’m here for it, if that means downloading my consciousness onto a self-replicating robot, count me in haha although I’m only studying to be a pilot; I don’t pretend to be a computer engineer or neurologist.
I don’t think the “aside from the internet, nothing much”. Firstly comuter and internet tech have been fairly revolutionary across substantial chunks of industry and our daily lives. This is the “a smartphone is only 1 device so doesn’t count as much progress” thinking. Without looking at the great pile of abacuses and slide rules and globes and calculators and alarm clocks and puzzle toys and landline phones and cameras and cassette tapes and … that it replaced and improved on.
Secondly, there are loads of random techs that were invented recently, solarPV, LED’s. Mrna Vaccines. Electric (self driving?) cars.
And finally, a substantial part of progress is the loads of tiny changes that make things cheaper and better. If you don’t include things like 3d-printers and drones that haven’t really gotten good yet, then of course you will see less inventions recently. The first fridges were expensive and not that good either.
If longtermists existed back when blacks were widely regarded as morally inferior to whites, would the moral calculus of the longtermists have included the prosperity of future blacks or not? It seems like it couldn’t possibly have included that. More generally, longtermism can’t take into account progress in moral knowledge, nor what future generations will choose to value. Longtermists impose their values onto future generations.
It is true that we can’t predict future moral knowledge. However.
An intervention by someone from that time period that helps modern whites and doesn’t harm modern blacks would still be seen as better than doing nothing from the point of view of most people. (excluding the woke fringe) Most random interventions selected to help future white people are unlikely to cause significant net harm to blacks.
If their intervention is ensuring that we are wealthy and knowledgeable, and hence more able to do whatever it is we value, then that intervention would take into account progress and moral knowledge.
In reality, you have to choose to do something. When making decisions that effect future generations, either you impose your current values, or you try to give them as much flexible power to allow moral knowledge, or you basically pretend they don’t exist.
This is an intresting new combination of standard mistakes.
Another issue is that if altruistic morality is taken to its logical conclusion, then everyone would be trying to solve everyone else’s problems. How could that possibly be more effective than everyone trying to solve their own problems?
Altruistic morality in the total utilitarian sense would recognize that solving everyones problems is equally valuable, including our own. In the current world, practically no humans are going to put themselves lower than everyone else, and most of the best opportunities for aultruism are helping others. But in the hypothetical utopia land, people would solve their own problems, there being no more pressing problems to solve.
If we are here to help others, what on Earth are the others here for?
Well imagine the ideal end goal, if we develop some magic tech. Everyone living in some sort of utopia. At this point, most of the aultruists say that there is no one in the world who really needs helping, and just enjoy the utopia. But until then, they help.
What we actually need to be is selfish, not altruistic. We need to make as rapid progress as possible so that the people of the future themselves will be at a starting point where they can make even more rapid progress.
A aulturist argument for selfishness. You are arguing that selfishness is good because it benefits future people.
If you were actually selfish, you would be arguing that selfishness is good because it makes you happy, and screw those future people, who cares about them.
I also don’t know where you got the idea that selfish=max progress.
Suppose I am a genius fusion researcher. (I’m not) I build fusion reactors so future people will have abundant clean energy. If I was selfish, I would play video games all day.
Altruism is subordinating one’s own preferences to those of others. It’s a zero-sum game. It’s not win-win.
In the ideal utilitarian hypothetical utopia, who exactly is loosing. If hypothetically everyone had the exact same goal, the well being of humanity as a whole, valuing their own well being at exactly the same level as everyone elses, that would be a 0 difference game, the exact opposite of a 0 sum game.
Some thoughts on Meaning & Modern Job Satisfaction
Jason recently shared a thread on the tension between the objective criteria that make work meaningful increasing while the subjective experience of perceived meaning of work seems to be decreasing. As with most things related to progress, much of this likely stems from a combination of rising expectations and the current emotional climate of pessimism. However, with the help of several conversations, I believe that I’ve identified two elements that may help further explain the gap between objective and subjective experiences.
I was talking about this with a friend — Ashley — who is an upper middle manager at Nike. She’s worked at Nike for 10+ years, with numerous promotions and “career success” by most standards, she enjoys her work, loves the people she works with and has a fairly high degree of autonomy. She’s also an athlete, mostly a runner, who engages in the running community and does Nike sponsored events every year.
Based on all of this — the mastery, autonomy, recognition, human connection and the intersection of her work with her personal life — Ashley should experience a high degree of meaning in her work, but she shared that she experiences almost no meaning. That said, she has no plans to leave and her job has lots of emotional upside including being supportive of her family life.
In digging into why, it largely came down to two things (that she did not enunciate exactly, but I summarize as):
Feeling 100% replaceable — Ashley explained how many people she’s seen come & go over the years and how professionally, its meant very little to Nike. They may be missed personally and there may be some short term pain from a transition, but that, in her words, ‘the whole point of the corporation is so that no individual matters. We are all replaceable — and that’s a feature.’
I can imagine a past where, even a low meaning job by today’s standard, would not have felt so replaceable. Growing up in a (very) small town, I can tell you with confidence that when the pizza place closed, no one starved, but it was MISSED in a way that even the most popular pizza place in a city never could be.
Genuine uncertainty of causing harm vs benefit — While Ashley can repeat the marketing premises (and, yes, Nike has an entire team whose sole purpose is to market internally, to employees), she is genuinely uncertain of whether Nike produces a net benefit on the world. She conceptually embraces the ideals of Nike, but does not trust that Nike acts in a manner that expresses those ideals consistently nor that it is even possible for Nike, within a capitalistic system, to act as a net-positive for society.
Anecdotally, I had a very different conversation with a friend who works at OpenAI that lead to a similar conclusion (s/he wishes to remain anonymous) . While he does not feel replaceable, he is very concerned about how his job has shifted to become significantly less meaningful and more challenging to be fully engaged with as his ethical concerns about the company and general concern about the future have increased in the last 8 months.
To beat a horse dead with anecdotes, my father, who mines garnet, finds enduring and genuine meaning from unlocking resources from their raw state into one that is usable. He feels little uncertainty about the net benefit of his work. Meanwhile many people that I meet in my day-to-day (highly educated / not ever going to be miners) are honestly appalled by the idea of mining, let alone that the mine is within the boundaries of a protected wilderness and generally view his work as detrimental, rather than beneficial (and thus not meaningful).
While both of these are highly subjective criteria, so is an individual’s assessment of meaning. Framing matters. I think that people, and especially younger generations, are weighed down by their genuinely uncertain about how to positively impact the world — and a huge chunk of that is what progress studies is looking to address! It’s also why, in my opinion, the clarity and confidence of the EA worldview was able to spread so rapidly.
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Here’s some research that dances around supporting the ideas, although I wasn’t able to find anything that nailed it in a cursory search:
You’re probably well aware of studies that indicate decreasing trust, which in turn leads to a dearth of confidence in the actions that will lead to their desired result. EG: the well supported idea that there is declining trust in institutions, scientists, and how greenwashing has / is significantly diminishing trust in corporate ethics (as well as scandals like ENRON, near disasters like the 2008 banking crisis, etc)
This may be a faux pass of the community rules about disagreement, but I don’t think you’ve created anything interesting here. Your “new movement” comes across a lot more like a cult than a concrete way to find meaning.
You describe a crisis of modernity in very vague terms in this piece. You point to things that are bad, gesture that our emotions might not be positive, and suggest that we need to develop a new way of living and finding meaning. To find meaning, you recommend watching a video you made.
This is generally how your video comes across too. You describe the “void” which is a shorthand term for anxieties, concerns, and nervousness about the future, and then say it’s solved by “the light in the void” which is further explained over the next 20 minutes to be, more or less, the meaning of life. You provide a few exercises about how to find this meaning for yourself, but the exercises tend to focus more on making the viewer feel a certain way rather than clear exercises that the viewer can build upon or share with others. It is a vibes-based way of thinking, not a structured one. Furthermore, it is not clear why a new movement is needed for people to find this meaning, rather than, say, to read a self-help book. (For a book that actually helps you to find meaning in your work/life, I recommend “What Color is Your Parachute” personally. It has been in print for 50 years)
To learn more about your movement/idea, you provide a link to your website. This website has links to two youtube videos (including the one discussed earlier) and another which is an hour and thirty minutes. I couldn’t/didn’t get through that one. The website touts the variety of people in the movement (Successful hedge fund managers! Interesting and cool anarchists!), but is light on how the system actually works. The only other thing on the website are two donation buttons, one for a $200 donation and and one for a $2,000 donation to the organization that you’ve started.
I am not going to blatantly assume bad faith here, but if you do not intend for this to be a cult, then you need to make your pitch significantly more clear and cut to the chase of what you’re trying to say.
We never claimed, in any of our comms, that this movement is about a “concrete way to find meaning”. These are your terms, not ours.
In this particular thread, I don’t “suggest that we need to develop a new way of living and finding meaning”. I suggest we need to revaluate what our idea of progress is. It’s very clear in my writing.
“To find meaning, you recommend watching a video you made.” Eh… no? I suggest watching the video for my take on what the reframing of progress could be about (one that maximizes values alignment and meaning). Either you have extremely bad reading comprehension, or you’re intentionally badly mischaracterizating what I’m saying.
“You provide a few exercises about how to find this meaning for yourself, but the exercises tend to focus more on making the viewer feel a certain way rather than clear exercises that the viewer can build upon or share with others”. Yeah, because the video about explaining what meaning is, not a manual. We actually have a lot of techniques, even a course on it (!), but since the video isn’t about finding meaning, that’s not what I’m highlighting.
“It is a vibes-based way of thinking, not a structured one” — Look, it’s fine if you don’t the will or capacity to get through the 1.30h lecture, but then simply you don’t get to critizice that this is a “vibes based” way of thinking. The video you watched is the only “vibey” thing that we have, everything else is extremely robust.
“The website touts the variety of people in the movement (Successful hedge fund managers! Interesting and cool anarchists!”..… Eh, what? This is my response to a comment above about how our notion of meaning is broad, not particular. Again, either you have very limited comprehension, or there’s actually bad faith in your blunt mischarachterization.
The only thing you’re right is that yes, our website doesn’t have as much clear information as we’d like, but doing this well takes a lot of work, and we only launched a month and a half ago (!) (most startups have equally simple websites during their first year). So yes, we’re working on it, but we’re not quite there yet. My deepest apologies. If you want more information though, we have enough information to keep you busy for at least a week (even though, given you couldn’t get through the video lecture which is the summarized version of this, it’s unsure whether you’d be able to engage with this properly):
We have Design School that teaches how to get concrete around meaning and design for it https://www.sfsd.io/ . So far, we’ve trained over 300 students across 80 organizations (including Apple, Facebook, Khan Academy, etc). The lecture you didn’t watch is the best intro to our design method, and it’s extremely structured thinking. You can even apply for the course if you want to learn how to get concrete about meaning.
We also have a full, freely accessible textbook on values and meaning-centric design. There’s a lot of free exercises you can do yourself and share with your friends https://textbook.sfsd.io/
Finally, this is much much more that we’re doing, but not all of it is public (like is the case with a lot of movements or companies). We have alignment researchers at major labs (OpenAI, Anthropic, DeepMind etc) working with our notion of meaning. We have a working prototype of a GPT based chatbot that assists you get clear on your meaning (which will be launched later this year). We have a unique AI alignment strategy (some of it outlined in our ML research group). We have a dedicated working group working on meaning aligned economic policy (supported by some known names from the progress community too). Partnerships with highly strategic agents. Collaborations with acclaimed artists. Etc Etc.
We’ll slowly publicly announce more of this over the course of this year, so you can just stay tuned to see whether I’m bullshitting or not. Wanna bet ;)?
I think I’m probably just not the target audience for your project, so I didn’t “get it”. I apologize for calling your stuff a cult and interpreting it through that lens.
A lot of what I was saying was an attempt to boil down your points to get to the meat of what the project is trying to say, but perhaps that kinda defeats the purpose of the artistic aspect of it. While I could argue about the numbered responses, or give suggestions on how to streamline the ideas you’re proposing, if the point is in large part artistic I see how that’s barking up the wrong tree.
While I don’t think this is for me, I apologize again for my critical tone and for calling it a cult. Best of luck.
I wrote about Class 1 / Class 2 in the context of blockchain for my blog today and wanted to share my updated thoughts after spending a few days thinking.
I think fundamentally, Class 2 problems is just a rephrasing of tragedy of the commons issues. Rephrasing is useful because it gives us a new perspective to approach an issue.
In the piece, I suggest that we can predict Class 2 problems by thinking about the specific features of the technology, eg blockchain, which motivate entrepreneurs to solve the Class 1 problems, and thinking about how those features could be bad when overdone (classic market failure ideas of over supply)
Rather than coming up with a checklist of things to look out for, which we might never complete, I think using the lens of ‘what persuades entrepreneurs to solve the Class 1 problems, and how could this be bad’ gives a useful way to approach Class 2 safety topics. It also lets us make the argument that ‘these Class 2 problems are only here because the technology was so good that we fixed all the Class 1 problems, so let’s face them head on, rather than banning the technology (or similar)’
Hello Arturo, I loved your article, and I agree, there is a lot more to space colonization than rockets. I was researching NASA’s two training stations (by the way, if anyone has a Masters in STEM, you can apply to live on one of the practice stations) https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/moon-mars/a37349989/nasa-mars-colony-simulation/ and I think the main solutions to the problem of an isolated community on Mars would be:
1. 3d printing/CNC cutting with multiple materials 2. hydroponic systems using GMO plants and fish 3. automated construction systems with local materials where possible.
I wonder if concrete is possible with Mars rock, or what kinds of minerals we’ll be able to take advantage of. If the value of Mars material outweighs the cost of sending ships back and forth, it won’t really be a closed system anymore.
And if people live on the moon, or in low-orbit stations, as well as Earth, there will be new markets for trade and manufacturing.
If you take a peak at some of my links to NASA’s website, they do list a number of phenomenal projects on material science, energy capture/creation, plus terraforming tech. Still, without a feasible fuel source, it’s hard to imagine actually making it to Mars let alone outside our solar system one day.
That being said, what have you heard about fusion propulsion and what are your thoughts?
If fussion propulsion is possible, probably fussion would be available for energy production on Earth, and that would imply “energy too cheap to measure”. The kind of economy under that regime would extremely different from ours. Under that conditions, for example, materials would be extremely easy to obtain from Earth (we could profitably mine minerals with far lower ore grades than we can now).
I think that if we ever reach the “energy too cheap to measure” economic regime, for example, extiction risk would be far lower than now. But we all know that Brazil is the country of the future, and allways will be, and that nuclear fussion will allways be 30 years in the future either… I hope I am wrong in both :-)
When it comes to the philosophy of space technology, the effects of it on earth shouldn’t be undercounted. Cheap satellites have a lot of implications for privacy when every spot on earth can be surveilled 24⁄7.
Orbital bombardment is a powerful weapon with a strength comparable to nuclear weapons and in cases like attacking underground bunkers even more powerful. At the same time, the existing fears of radiation don’t exist for orbital bombardment. It’s important to think well about how to handle the implications of powerful technology in orbit.
SpaceX tanker ships might be powerful enough to do serious damage and yet they don’t have the safety against cyber attacks that military weapons usually had in the past. What happens if a SpaceX tanker crashes in the White House, removing it completely from the map and nobody really knows why it happened?
Generally, the cyber-security of most systems is subpar. The military goes to extraordinary lengths to make its systems secure.
Elon Musk’s philosophy of building things includes pushing engineers to work as fast as possible to make progress. That’s helpful for getting to orbit as fast as possible but it’s not helpful for having a system that lacks zero-day vulnerabilities.
I understand what you’re saying. It seems like encryption is the answer to that problem, but I don’t pretend to understand how that works, or how to implement it. I do understand that regular software updates can mitigate security threats.
I agree, Musk drives people to the edge of what’s possible. In a business as cut-throat as his, one must race other companies for the rights to very few jobs. SpaceX is essentially breaking ground just ahead of their competition. I have no doubt that the reason they maintain their slim advantage is because they are working ungodly amounts and demanding more of themselves everyday. I also have no doubt that anyone who can’t take the heat would have a dozen other options to choose from.
I can’t guarantee the culture at Boeing or Blue Horizon is any different tho...
I do understand that regular software updates can mitigate security threats.
Software updates give you protection against known attacks but not against zero-day attacks.
Jeff Bezos divorced largely because zero day attacks exist. He Saudi’s hacked his phone by having access to zero days they brought and blackmailed him and he didn’t do what they asked so they released data about his affair.
The US famously had the data about all their personal with security clearances hacked by the Chinese.
Boeing seems to have a quite bureaucratic culture. Given that it’s a defense contractor, I would expect that it has processes where it pays more attention to cyber security.
Blue Horizon is likely also not good at cyber security because not being good at it is the default for companies.
Gavel-kind succession laws, whereby all children got an equal share of their parents’ estates, rather than it all going to the eldest. English primogeniture, by contrast, apparently left a lot of gentlemen’s younger sons having to become apprenticed to merchants.
It would be interesting to understand more about the effects of those laws. Being able to give all the wealth to a single son makes it easier to invest all the wealth in a single commercial enterprise because that enterprise doesn’t have to be broken up.
I will incorporate those into the medium article, https://medium.com/@kassandra-dick/philosophy-in-space-57809bac9e75, though I think I’ve covered the second one fairly with the discussion of what kinds of minds are really capable of being space pioneers. I like the way you say it, “they will not be an escape hatch for the wealthy at all”
Just a sense of why I wrote this article, it will be part of a collection of articles about technology pertaining to the brain and consciousness (all forms of BCI and virtual-reality), and technology mimicking the brain and consciousness (AI and computational models about consciousness). But really all of this is in terms of progress and how all this is possible.
Hello, I’m Kassandra Dick, a freelance writer from Canada. Progress is the only viable option for humanity and I’m all about surviving and thriving. I love the work and writings of Peter H. Diamandis and Steven Kotler, as well as Yaron Brook, Ayn Rand, Alex Epstein and David Eagleman. You can find my work and my poetry here: https://kassandra-dick.medium.com/
I’m Lev, at least that’s what I go by online. Most of my interests that I will be writing about have to do with AI, consciousness, brain technology, and space travel. I care about these things in terms of progress, and I want to promote the philosophical grounding that progress requires.
Hello everyone, I am Isaac, a CompE and math double major at UMBC. I am interested in working on medical devices and am interested in starting a for-profit startup. This startup would hopefully work on both direct impact and allow money for donations (see here).
I am also considering a PhD or Masters in Biomedical engineering, computer engineering, or electrical engineering.
Thanks Thomas! There is a community section of this forum where you can create local groups and meetups / other events. Please post there and let me know, I’ll help spread the word.
Your work seems like a spiritual successor to Simon’s Ultimate Resource, sounding some of the same themes for a new generation. What are the biggest or most interesting updates since Ultimate Resource was published? And/or what did you find in your research for the book that surprised you?
I think what surprised me the most was how expensive things used to be. Bicycles have become 22 times more abundant today compared to 1910. In 1955 Bill Haley and the Comets’ ‘Rock Around the Clock,’ sold 3 million singles at 65 cents each. Unskilled workers at the time were earning around 97 cents an hour. This would put the time price of a song at 40 minutes. Today a student can get access to 90 million songs for $5.99 a month. Unskilled workers are earning around $14.53 an hour, so the time price is around 25 minutes. In 1955 it was 40 minutes for one song versus 25 minutes for 10,800 today (assuming 4 minutes per song and continuous streaming).
This abundance has occurred at the same time population is increasing. Once you start thinking is time instead of money, you will be astonished at the abundance we enjoy today relative to our parents and grandparents.
I have heard it claimed that Julian Simon got a bit lucky in his bet with Paul Ehrlich, and that if a different basket of metals or other commodities had been chosen, he might have lost. Is that true? What do we make of that?
Julian Simon was lucky because human population has been lucky for the last 150 years. And taking a long perspective is what is necessary if you really want to discover the underlying trend versus short-run market fluctuations. (You can always find a 10-year period to show prices going up or down.)
To understand what’s happening, we looked that the time prices of the Simon-Ehrlich five metal basket bet (copper, chromium, nickel, tin, and tungsten) from 1900 to 2018. For blue-collar workers the average time price fell by 89.2 percent. This means that for the time required to earn the money to buy one unit in 1900, you would get 9.28 units in 2018. These non-renewable metals have become 828 percent abundant. (Page 190)
During this same period, U.S. population increased by 330.3 percent. Every one percent increase in population corresponded to a 3.22 percent increase in personal resource abundance. Measured at the population level, these five metals became 3,884 percent more abundant. (Page 229)
Take a look at any basic commodity and there is a good chance that over the last 40-50 years it has become much more abundant. The only exceptions seem to be those products that are influenced by government regulations and subsidies like health care and education.
We are grateful that Julian Simon had the courage to enter into this bet. He could have lost big time. But he had done his research and had a theory to explain the evidence. More people make life much more abundant. Simon won $576.07, but humanity has enjoyed trillions in new value over the last 150 years created by people that have the freedom to innovate.
I have read in Where Good Ideas Come From by Steven Johnson that innovation can be modelled by a graph where create a vertex on the graph with edges on the used technologies that are combined. In The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Thomas Kuhn develops paradigms where they are built upon with normal science and new paradigms are created by disproving an assumption and building a new paradigm. The Innovators Dilemma by Clayton Christenson has a similar idea where revolutionary technologies start out as lower quality and build up over time while competitors invest in the best short term innovation (iterative technology).
What sort of mathematical /logical model do you use for modeling innovation?
These are great books. All make important contributions to how we think about lifting one another out of poverty.
Although we don’t offer an explicit model for innovation, partly due to the fact that innovation always comes as a surprise and you can’t model surprises (otherwise they wouldn’t be surprises), we do suggest that abundance is a function of population and the freedom to innovate.
Our work is informed by George Gilder. He offers three propositions: wealth is knowledge, growth is learning, and money is time. From these propositions we can derive a theorem: The growth in knowledge can be measured with time. Our analytical framework operationalizes this theorem.
Wealth is knowledge: As Thomas Sowell notes, “The cavemen had the same natural resources at their disposal as we have today, and the difference between their standard of living and ours is a difference between the knowledge they could bring to bear on those resources and the knowledge used today.” We convert atoms to resources when we add knowledge to them. Economics is not about atoms, economics is about the growth of knowledge–how it is discovered, created, and shared. Unlike material atoms that are divided when they’re shared, knowledge is multiplied when it is shared and grows exponentially when it is consumed.
Growth is Learning: Hayek recognized that knowledge is distributed in tiny bits spread across billions of people. Organizations seeking to create value coordinate the accumulation of this knowledge into products and services. These products and services must then be tested in free markets that are also creating new knowledge in the form of prices and valuations. We grow by discovering valuable new knowledge and then sharing it with others in organizations and markets.
Money is Time: We buy things with money, but we pay for them with time. This means there are two prices: money prices and time prices. A time price is simply the money price divided by hourly income. We express money prices in dollars and cents and time prices in hours and minutes. If you are earning $20 and hour and a pizza is $15, the time price would be 45 minutes. Innovation shows up in both lower prices and higher incomes. As long as incomes are increasing at a faster rate than money prices, the time price will be decreasing. If the time price of a pizza falls by 50 percent, you can now get two for the time it took to earn one yesterday. Your pizza abundance has increased by 100 percent. It is the change in time prices over time that indicates the growth in knowledge. Time prices are the true prices we pay and a much more objective way to measure our standards of living. Think in time, and the world will reveal superabundance and the potential value of all human beings contributing to innovation.
Love seeing the experimentation in research models, as well as nanotech projects specifically! I was very excited to see the announcement, and will be looking forward to seeing what you come up with. I’m late to the party, but a couple of questions if you get to them:
I’m guessing the work most of your projects will be doing will (if successful) generate some patent output. Is that correct, and if so do you have a concrete plan for those?
You mentioned experimenting with new ways of managing research. Do you have ideas for management experiments you’re excited to try, or is that primarily in attempting a private ARPA-style project (which is certainly a huge project on its own!)?
P.S. -- Just realized this morning that you’re the same Ben Reinhardt I went to high school with for two trimesters (before I got mono and fell off the face of the earth). Small world—wish I’d gotten to know you better then! Great to see you working on such cool stuff!
Thanks, I appreciate the pushback. Let me push back in turn:
Water in streams can’t be counted on to be clean, which is why we have water filtration plants. Also it often isn’t found where we want it, and so we have to transport it to our homes, farms, etc.
Berries have to be collected, and wild sources quickly run out. We also have to identify which berries are safe to eat. And in general all plants have evolved through human selection to be more productive, tastier, etc.
Air… is pretty usable as is, true.
I suppose there might be a very small number of resources we could consider almost fully natural. Air perhaps. Gravity? But we generally don’t think of these things as “resources” at all.
Appreciate the discussion very much, and I hate to be academic and persnickety because reading your writing in this space is invaluable.
Agree on gravity, seems like some out of the box thinking. Air, temperature, and atmospheric pressure might be the only other fully natural resources. Anything which appears in our environment without needing to be altered.
While there are a few natural resources I think we rightly focus on the unnatural ones because spending our attention in those areas is far more fruitful.
When you succeed tremendously with Speculative Technologies what are the most exciting changes a normal person just living their lives will see?
How will we experience the world differently in 2051? What will our homes look like? Our daily experience of work and going places? Our leisure activities? … or anything else that will be enabled by the new materials and technologies that are beyond the cutting edge now.
Or, put differently, why should people far outside the progress and tech communities be excited about this work?
I’m also very curious on what we, as a progress community, can contribute to the telling of more good, inspiring stories. If you have thoughts, please comment or get in touch: heike@therootsofprogress.org.
When I read this I felt a need to shout “YES!!” to all of this. In the past couple of weeks, as I’ve talked to people in the broader progress studies community I heard a lot of personal stories, and many of them included either influential stories (often Science Fiction books, but sometimes also historical tales of human ingenuity and invention or movies) or experiences in spaces that made possibilities real (like Disney Epcot or even museums with inspirational themes).
I’d love to hear from people in this community how these types of experiences played into their journey of being interested in scientific, industrial, technological, and human progress.
The inventor of the cell phone was inspired by the TOS communicator. There’s a lot of examples of this in engineering, I think.
I think you hit the mark with a lot of us having an underlying belief in progress independent of progress studies, and that a lot of that excitement/belief was inspired by media or culture. When I worked in sales, one of the team mottos we had was that people make decisions with emotions first, and then rationalize them later. Regardless of whether that’s how people “should” make decisions, I think it’s reasonably accurate. Creating art and media that celebrates progress, and having audiences have an emotional reaction to that media, is a great first step in getting more people invested in creating real-world progress. Disney and the other World’s Fair promoters certainly understood this, and on some level, I think everybody who pines for a Mid-Century World’s Fair does too.
Adam Ozimek had a twitter thread about a year ago where people pitched ideas for “progress studies” television shows—I wonder if anything happened to that. I stand by my pitch for a campy, positive, and fun 1632 mini-series.
Will Speculative Technologies offer internships this summer? If so, will they be limited to purely STEM students or is there space for generalist interns within your exciting organisation?
(Found out about SpecTech from Matt Clifford of ARIA/Entrepreneur First)
What is the roadmap, as far as we can see it, to the kind of nanotech envisioned in J. Storrs Hall’s books (Where Is My Flying Car? and earlier Nanofuture)? What are the big unsolved problems? What are the most promising approaches or near-term goals?
I think the problem is that we don’t have a clear roadmap—if we did it would be much easier to execute on it. In the limit, what Hall (and Drexler before him) describes is physically possible but transients matter and nobody has done a great job describing the intermediate technologies.
Throat clearing aside, here are some of my personal hunches (I don’t think there are any clear consensuses):
Use a combination of our existing tools for manipulating matter with nanoscale precision to start building multi-component and approach nanoscale systems that we can interface with from the macroscale: lithography, DNA origami, proteins, molecular machines. [Dropping a placeholder to include a link to Drexlers paper from the 90s combining proteins and AFM tips, and Tuberfelds work on DNA origami 3D printers]
Use these systems to at first start modifying macroscale objects: maybe making extremely precise edges to turbine blades, or something that can’t be done any other way
Eventually expand to making things full cloth with them, with increasing scope and precision.
There are so many big unsolved problems! Frankly I think the biggest ones are some combination of experiments taking a long time to do and then measure what happened and then trust those measurements, the difficulty of simulating what will happen in lieu of experiments, both of which lead to extreme difficulty building any sort of intuition for the affordances of nanoscale systems, which makes it hard for people to build systems. That’s a rather abstract answer, but beyond “creating covalent bonds exactly where we want them” I’m not even sure we know what the right concrete unsolved problems are.
Two approaches I’m personally excited about:
Using something like DNA origami to template nanoscale building blocks (that could be proteins or other things) -- you can get atomic precision on very small “pieces” and then if you can put those pieces together in a deterministic way, you could get larger pieces with the same precision. If you could then functionalize those pieces, you could very ambitiously have a nanoscale “factory” that does several steps of a reaction or something similar. (I am talking my own book to some extent here: we’re running a program to tackle this approach at Spectech)
Interfacing silicon and proteins. Photolithography is great at going from 100 m to 10−8 m and proteins are a great way of going from 10−10 to 10−8 m. By bridging the two we could potentially have something that enables you to directly interface with single atoms via a keyboard at scale.
I think the actual approach is going to involve jumping up and down between many length scales
Is the new industrial policy for semiconductor manufacturing going to result in new materials and manufacturing innovations, or is it mainly about bringing existing know-how to US from Asia? Will it spur any research, or result mainly in execution of known industry methods?
Will the industrial policy jobs be of interest to the types of people you would like to bring into private ARPA, or will it only create non-R&D jobs?
How would you allocate $1-10m personally towards maximising progress? Would a FRO or PARPA be the right choice over say angel investing in startups or funding smaller research projects?
After a lot of research, I think that one of the most effective ways of allocating order one-$100M towards progress is to enable materials and manufacturing technology research that could shift paradigms but doesn’t have a home in current institutions. Those conclusions come from a couple of observations:
A ton of progress is driven by the second order effects of technologies: haber bosch, intended to remove german dependence on south american guano contributed a huge amount to solving overpopulation, etc.
The technologies that most often have those second order effects are how we make things and the stuff we make those things from (ie. materials and manufacturing)
These technologies require systems research, which in turn needs more coordination than academic incentives provide but is still too uncertain for startups.
That being said, I’m not a fan of some sort of global prioritization of funding. While in practice everybody must make it, I think that the best thing for one person to spend towards might not be the same as for another person.
I do think on the margin additional money towards startups or small projects (<$100k) isn’t as helpful as pooling money together with other people to enable a discretely larger or longer project. That could take the form of giving one person ~10 years of guaranteed funding, enabling a team of ~5 people over two or three years, or building a serious piece of infrastructure for a group of weirdos.
which types of new materials / manufacturing technologies will have the most economic impact ? what are you most excited about being built with these new materials / technologies ?
Is Speculative Technologies part of the upstream process of creating alternatives to plastics? (alternatives that don’t have the “persistent pollutant” or microplastic/nanoplastic decomposition problems)
Not an expert, but as far as I can tell, nowhere near enough! There’s some rumbling about making it easier to build nuclear and folks like Jamie Beard and Eli Dourado are doing admirable work to make it easier to drill geothermal, but for the most part people don’t even think seriously about the counterfactual that we could have orders of magnitude more energy and what that would unlock.
What advances in material science would have to occur for it to be as exciting to investors and average people as software? i.e. is the world of bits going to remain the dominant arena of novel creations for the next century?
If by “investors” you mean venture capitalists, I’m not sure that material science will ever be as exciting as software—the margins on software are too high and the timescales are so short. Maybe if someone cracked truly automated generative materials.
But there are other kinds of investors—I could imagine a number of valuable companies eventually being built around some general-purpose materials platforms: if someone figured out how to make steel with truly tunable properties, hierarchical materials, extremely efficient thermoelectrics, arbitrarily long carbon nanotubes, etc.
If you forced me begrudgingly to make generalizations about average people, I’d point to the fact that people get excited when advances touch their lives: you could imagine everything from drastically cheaper electricity from room temperature superconductors, self-cleaning surfaces, items made from wood with drastically different properties …
I resonate with this. The issue is that culture is particular, but the type of progress the progress studies is generally committed to is civilizational (tech and institutions) not cultural (art and meaning). A community dedicated to progress would instantly become significantly more narrow if it committed to some particular vision of what is valuable and meaningful. While I am fairly committed to a particular vision of how to integrate civilization and culture to create a meaningful life, I wouldn’t want the Progress Forum to commit to a particular view of, say, family values or the status of rituals in society.
Your video is still a broad tent view of meaning. Yet, I’d like to hear how one can actually engage in the project you describe without becoming partisan some particular view of what makes a meaningful life.
Actually, you can’t really separate cultural progress from civilizational progress. The modern world didn’t just come about because of the industrial revolution, but also because the set of new ideas about what it means to be an individual and live in society that liberalism promoted. In fact, it was this set ideas what catalyzed the industrial revolution, rather than material or technological factors like geography or access to capital.
And, our project is super focused on technological, scientific and institutional progress. We are very pro-tech and markets. But we think that the way to unlock this type of progress is through redesigning tech and institutions around meaning:
In regards about culture and meaning being particular, that is also not quite the case. Liberalism itself is proof that you can have a dominant cultural system that is not affiliated to any particular way of life (and yes, it’s now failing, but it’s failing for another set of reasons).
In fact, most of the people engaging in our project have very different views of what it means to live a good life! In our core team of five, we have a very conservative orthodox jew living in Jerusalem, and a poly, queer, social justice political philosopher from the Bay Area — the rest of us are all somewhere in between.
And the people who are resonating with our message are also as equally varied! We have religious leaders and anarchists, rave organizers and hedge fund managers, radical environmentalists and tech accelerationists, midwives and alignment researchers. To be honest, even I have been surprised at the diversity of the people who have been writing us!
A while ago there was a kickstarter project called Origami Bag. They basically have a material that has for most purposes a smooth purpose but at the same time behaves like velcro.
While the product itself is not that interesting the material itself seems interesting. Naively, I would expect that it would find applications in which velcro is currently used like shoes because it seems much nicer.
To me, there’s an open question of why a new material like this didn’t find adoption. The fact that it didn’t seems also to have applications that might be hard for other new materials to find adoption. Do you have an idea here?
Not an expert but I suspect it’s unlikely that commercial products will be manufactured in space beyond expensive novelty items (do theraputics count as commercial?)
Reason being that commercial usually implies large scale, which I suspect will be limited in things in space that are going to come to earth.
Excellent description of how stories play a critical role. I’m interested in whether the same sorts of stories could be updated and played again, or whether it has just become harder to share these kinds of stories.
In the UK, in 1951, there was the Festival of Britain, which was similar to other events of the time: showing how the future could be great. It was at the newly built Southbank Centre. Such events require lots of public sector funding and, particularly to hold frequently, bi-partisan commitment. It seems like this is a prerequisite for national-level storytelling? Today, we have global ExPos, but they are every five years and garner little attention (Dubai 2020, Japan 2025). I would be curious to know what people think it takes to tell these stories.
Good piece; really enjoyed reading & have shared with my team (who are planning an Expo just like this!)
Is additive manufacturing, or 3D printing using different materials / composites, a viable alternative to manufacturing processes today? Or will the cost curve & material integrity never be as good when compared to high volume standardized manufacturing?
I suspect that for situations where you want millions of the exact same thing, 3D printing will never replace high volume standardized manufacturing.
However, you could imagine a world where additive manufacturing does become much cheaper and faster to the point where many more things are made with subtle customizations, or made on premise, etc. New paradigms almost never replace the old thing directly, but take over by changing the way things are done and measured.
Industry 4.0 is a popular marketing slogan for, broadly, the future of manufacturing. What’s your take on the harder science / tech underpinning this positioning? Anything you’re particularly excited about?
There are obvious avenues for progress in our society: more income security, less working hours, ideally some degree of population de-concentration. Addionally, relatively poor countries still have a large room for economic improvement, and political and military risks are un un-acceptably large.
On the other hand, your criticism of the “rockets and flying cars” progress ideal looks spot on to me.
Because cities are sitting ducks for nuclear weapons. We don’t know if nuclear winter is real, but in case it were not, nuclear war would be survivable if human population and industry were spread.
It is obviously a critical consideration; beyond that, I would say that the best countries in the world are those with a long history of descentralization and a relatively less hierarchical urban structure: Switzerland, Germany and the United States. It makes life cheaper, allows people to live in bigger houses, the enviorment is better… Urbanization was a necessary evil and a necessary risk. Fortunately, less neccesary now.
I would prefer if progress goes in a way that decreases the chance of nuclear war instead of minimizing its chance.
I like living in a big city. I like being close to other interesting people. I’d prefer it if even more interesting people would live in a short distance.
A few more, although you may have intended some of them to be grouped together with one of the other entries.
Can we cure mental health illnesses like depression, anxiety disorders, and PTSD?
Can we create an actually good pain medication that cures chronic and/or acute pain with few or no side effects?
Can we build monitoring and imaging technology that allows us to cheaply track every process occurring in our body, enhancing early detection of disease, improving diagnosis accuracy, and informing treatments?
Hi, I’m happy to provide some additional comment later (traveling at the moment) but copy/pasting with light edits the text of an email I wrote in 2020 on this topic. Context: I work on charter cities.
“Based on our conversations with [Native American political economy scholar], the big problem is that while on paper it looks like the tribes might have some degree of autonomy or freedom, they have virtually none in practice.
The property rights on reservations are structured in such a way that the federal government has to be involved in virtually everything. Even down to simple property improvements, like if you wanted to build a pool or a shed on your property, you need federal involvement because the land is held in trust by the federal government because court precedent ruled that Native Americans are technically wards of the state.
There’s also just a lot of variance in the quality of tribal governments… a handful are reportedly run well but a lot more are essentially the stationary bandit. A lot of businesses reportedly do not trust tribal judicial systems… Walmart will set up just outside the Navajo reservation but not inside it, for example.
And then there’s also the fact that the tribes want to keep as much of their remaining land in native hands as possible, essentially that they wouldn’t want a whole bunch of white people showing up and taking over things.
And then one final major obstacle is that most reservations are in the middle of nowhere and are home to less than 10,000 people total. And even in large reservations like the Navajo, biggest town is at most 10,000 people. So it’s hard to get a critical mass of people, and you’re far from any useful infrastructure like an airport.”
I know that the tribes have no freedom now; you could not do anything like a charter city without changing the Federal laws. The laws need to be changed.
Some places would refuse to sell land to outsiders, but some would. The tribal governments should be able to, without Federal oversight, choose to either manage land communally, or assign property rights to individuals.
I’m not intimately familiar with how the law treats Canadian tribes, but you might find this project (Senakw) being developed by the Squamish Nation in Vancouver interesting. In short, they’re building a new development adjacent to Vancouver and because they’re a tribe are exempt from all the usual planning and zoning regualtions.
Yes to both questions. This is what I see as the most politically feasible way to make a charter city with actual regulatory independence happen in the USA.
Based mostly on reading Matt Levine, I suspect that in practice, if the SEC wanted to go after a business registered in the CDEZ, they would.
What does the economics of innovation have to say about a late adopter/slow adopter industry like Construction, where productivity has been flat at best for four decades, and not just in the USA? If Construction is somewhere around 6% of GNP, you’d think the issue would get more attention.
A really good research agenda needs to have two features: it should be an important problem, and you need an angle of attack on it. In the case of the economics of innovation, I think that biases the field towards studying sectors where there is readily available data, whether those are patents, granular data on productivity, approved drugs, or whatever. A lot of low-growth sectors—education, construction, government—are maybe areas where high quality data isn’t as readily available. Or in some cases, innovation-relevant data might actually exist, but a critical mass of scholars don’t understand it, which makes it hard to study and get good feedback on your work.
That said, there is some work on this. Personally, I’m excited to look into this handbook that examines the pace of entrepreneurship and innovation across a bunch of different sectors. Also check out Brian Potter on the construction industry specifically!
How should one create institutions which drive innovation activities and create technologies improving welfare ? Is Venture Capital model of investment a good model to support innovation?
Different kinds of institutions are good at different kinds of things, and you ideally want a portfolio of different institutions.
Academic research is good at promoting non-commercial exploratory research that hews close enough to the community of experts to take advantage of critical feedback and allow for people to build on top of each other’s ideas (classic article here)
Venture capital is good at innovation that is very valuable if it works, very uncertain if it will work, but where it is possible to learn relatively easily if an idea will work. (classic article here)
Incumbent firms are probably pretty good at incremental improvement of their technologies, provided they face a bit of competition (citation needed!)
Large corporate science labs are good at projects that require a lot of resources, a longer time horizon, and a focus on integrating disparate results into a coherent package (classic article here)
There are probably other institutional arrangements better suited to different kinds of innovation too; most of these institutional arrangements are not that old, as institutions go! I think, for example, that there are probably ways to improve the organization of academic research. And the private sector has to some extent retreated from basic science, and we may need newinstitutions to fulfill the kind of role they used to do.
I will cheat and list two ideas, plus one irrelevant one.
First, let’s start with some large-scale descriptive statistics of practices!
How do different labs organize and manage their staff?
How do different editors manage their journal and peer review process?
How do different grant reviewers pick grants?
The goal is to see if there are obvious best practices; what kinds of stuff is correlated with good outcomes? This would be some kind of large-scale survey.
Second, I’ve always wanted to know more about the political economy of R&D. How do governments decide how much to spend on R&D? I’m not sure the best way to study this though.
Third, my dream research project, after we have sorted out the more important stuff, is to use the decadal Sight and Sound Greatest Movies of All Time poll to study how people’s perception of artistic greatness changes over time. Do people change their minds? Or is it all about new (younger) critics embracing newer films?
What do you think about the question of “ideas getting harder to find”? What do you think of the discussion of this topic in the progress community—is there something people are misunderstanding or getting wrong about the issue?
Scientific and technological progress is getting harder
But the pace of progress is steady because we try harder
Nostalgia bias, the esoteric nature of modern advances, and general human crankiness makes people falsely believe the rate of progress is slowing more than it actually is
I’m pretty confident about #1 and #3, less sure about #2. We certainly are trying harder, but maybe not enough to keep the overall rate of progress steady. I go back and forth on this, but at least think the case for a slowing rate of progress is not nearly as strong as the case for #1.
Why is #1 true? I think it’s a combination of things. To a large degree, this just seems to be an inevitable feature of advancing knowledge; the burden of knowledge gets heavy, and maybe we also pluck some of the low hanging fruit. But a non-negligible part of the slowdown is probably due to the way we organize and conduct R&D. Improving that would have really high benefits, even if we’re probably not going to go back to the era when a handful of gentleman scientists could make giant advances.
Afraid the implications are limited for the time being. Competition policy and innovation is a big and active research area, and one that I haven’t dug into yet. It’s too big a topic for one article.
What evidence-based advice would you give to a corporate CEO to increase innovation in her company?
Are there specific management practices, elements of corporate (not national) culture, or management behaviors that promote innovation? Can we apply insights from research on funding organizations (DARPA, NIH) to for-profit organizations? Are there robust principles (e.g., tolerate short-term failure, reward long-term success) that should apply in a corporate setting?
What are your favorite journal articles, working papers, or books on corporate innovation? Who is doing good research on this topic?
Probably the most concrete topic I’ve written the most about is the geographic distribution of an R&D workforce. I think one of my main takeaways is to not assume that everyone working together in the same building is as good as it gets, in terms of innovation, though it depends on the industry. Reasons to consider a more distributed workforce:
You can hire people who are a better fit for a specific role if you are set up for a remote workforce
A distributed workforce is exposed to a greater diversity of information environments
Modern communication technology makes it feasible to collaborate effectively at a distance, so that in person communication is no longer so crucial
That said, a distributed workforce offers its own challenges. You have to be more intentional about facilitating random meetings among different parts of the org for one, or you risk excessive siloing. And I think occasional in-person meetups are also important.
If you think nothing matters as much as getting the right people, then this is all the more important!
Some of my favorite papers on corporate innovation is the works of Ashish Arora and his colleagues, who are actively working on this stuff.
Great post. I really appreciated your comparison of the “more is better attitude” regarding knowledge with the “more is better attitude” regarding food.
What has the experience of New Things Under the Sun becoming so popular been like for you? For instance, has it changed how you write or what you decide to write about? And what do you think is hard about writing NTUS that might not be widely appreciated?
It’s been great that people I respect like the project, but the most important thing about it becoming popular is that I now get paid to do it. People sometimes say if you get paid to do something you previously did for fun, it kind of ruins it for you because it becomes work. That hasn’t been my experience, probably because (1) I don’t stress about view counts or anything anymore, and (2) I work on it a few hours each M-Th, but it’s not my entire professional life (much less my whole identity).
The main thing that has changed as the project has become bigger is that it’s more ambitious than it was at the outset. Mostly you can see that in the length of the articles, but also a bit in the work I put into the site infrastructure. I still write what I think is interesting, though other stuff I’m working on at the Institute for Progress and now at Open Philanthropy has some influence on what I think is interesting.
Probably the hardest part is knowing how much cool stuff is out there that I don’t have time to get to!
I don’t think we necessarily need more economic theory related to innovation, unless it’s informed by new data and facts (which it is sometimes!). I just feel like we had that in spades for decades.
The biggest blindspot for economists of innovation that I worry about is that, actually, incentives just don’t matter as much as we think. Engineering innovation may be much more a problem of finding the right people (not just right skills, but have a creative personality open to novel solutions), bringing the right people together, and so on. I’m not sure the right field to learn from on these topics though; still it’s something I think a lot about!
What role do government and politics play in supporting scientific innovation (coming from academia)?
There are good/interesting arguments on both sides of “governments have nothing to do with progress in science vs look at all the useful things we’ve got from the NASA space program”, etc. Where do you fall?
The biggest single thing is the government simply pays for a very large chunk of science! In 2019, the federal government paid for 41% of US scientific research.[1] That was more than the private sector (33%), university system (13%), or the philanthropic sector (10%). It’s true that if the US government stepped back these other sectors would probably step forward to shoulder some of the burden, but I doubt they would cover the majority of the short-fall.
More broadly, I think science and innovation is pretty hard to predict. That means we ideally want an innovation ecosystem that explores and tries lots of different approaches, even if some of those approaches don’t seem to hold the highest promise at there outset. One way you can get that is to have a private sector that is open to new entrants and startups who want to try different stuff than the incumbents. But those new firms are still going to be ultimately chasing the same signal as everyone else, namely profit, which might limit the extent to which this ecosystem explores the potential space of technological possibility.
So I think it’s useful to have some innovating organizations who are pursuing goals entirely untethered from market success. The government is one viable solution to this problem of getting a bit more exploration into the innovation ecosystem. I haven’t seen a study that tries to rigorously quantify the value of, e.g., NASA or DARPA, in terms of their spillovers to the rest of the economy, but I would be surprised if they don’t come out looking like good investments.
Anton Howes has been writing about an innovation mentality as critical in brining about the Industrial Revolution. Joel Mokyr discussed the importance of culture—the beliefs, values and preferences that influence behavior—as critical.
How do you think about our culture in the US today as it relates to innovation? Where are we strong, and where are there opportunities for improvement? I’m especially interested in how this may be changing: can we see differences in cultural attitudes across US generations? E.g., are younger people more innovation oriented now than they were decades ago—or less? And especially if less—what do you think is the best way of fostering an innovation culture especially among young people? (Or, put differently, what are the key obstacles you see?)
Across the sweep of history, the contemporary USA has got to be in the top 5% for it’s cultural support for innovation. But I think that’s mostly because the default state through human history has been so bad, rather than that we are so good![1] But it could be a lot worse! Elon Musk was person of the year in 2021!
It’s true that a lot of people are down on innovation, but I think to some degree that has to be an inevitable part of the kind of free society you want where lots of different perspectives (itself important for innovation!) are welcome and collide. A world with universal acclaim for innovation and progress would itself be kind of stifling. But that’s not to say we have the balance right already.
Where are there opportunities for improvement?
In my experience, different regions of the USA differ a lot in terms of what you ambitious people think they should do with their energies, and indeed how ambitious they should be. In some places, the ambitious thing to do might be to go to an Ivy League school, and then to be funneled into finance or medicine or something. In others, it’s to found a startup. In my own home state, neither of these was particularly emphasized. I think it would be great if people had a bit more exposure to what ambition means in different places, to broaden their own views about what a good life means. Not everyone would opt to be an innovator, but I think at present a lot of people who should probably are not because they simply don’t consider it much.
Joe Henrich’s book The Secret of our Success has some really interesting examples of traditional societies where if you tried to be innovative and more efficient than your peers, you would end up subtly killing yourself. In a world where humanity’s causal knowledge about how the world works is weak, innovation probably is dangerous to the individual, and so society’s rationally encouraged doing things the traditional way.
I hadn’t thought about the regional aspects, but it makes total sense, and it reminds me of this post by Paul Graham that talks about cities and ambitions: http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html
What learnings can we draw from your work on innovation on bringing together thinkers in progress studies? When do you think we should think about in-person gatherings and events, and when is it fine to work at a distance/via Zoom/here in the forum? As we think about events and bringing people together to learn and exchange ideas, any insights from your research on how to best structure those types of events?
In this context, Eric Gilliam had an interest post on his substack on conferences and Feynman’s take on their declining usefulness. Curious to hear if you have any thoughts based on your research as well on organizing gatherings that lead to more innovation.
My basic view is that modern communication technology makes it pretty easy to communicate and exchange ideas with people, as long as you already have a relationship with those people. It’s less well suited for forming relationships because it’s not so good at helping you discover people outside what you think you’re interested in (because we tend to go to websites catering to our interests), and because it’s a bit harder to build deep trust without face to face meetings.
In-person events based around groups that have common interests but don’t already know each other can be really useful for forging deeper relationships, and the internet means those relationships can remain productive at a distance. They can also be useful for meeting new people, if these meetings are packed with people you don’t already know and the meetings force you to interact with new people (for example, by making you queue for a buffet, find a table with an opening, sit next to someone on a bus to a second location, circulate around and look at posters, etc.).
Maybe big conferences aren’t that good for this kind of thing, as Feynman and Eric speculate? At a big conference, you’re more likely to know more people and so you might end up just hanging out with them and not meeting new people. And perhaps, knowing you unlikely to run into any given person a second time, it just doesn’t feel as important to introduce yourself and get to know them? Or maybe it just takes two or three minor encounters to really build a relationship for many people.
For more on academic conferences, I wrote something here.
Thanks, Matt, for the thoughtful response. My key take-aways are that (1) in person events are helpful to get new relationships going because of trust & discovery, and (2) we should keep these meeting small (or create smaller sessions in larger meetings) and (3) purposefully get people together who otherwise might not talk, and ideally have them not just be passive but work on something together in those sessions. Some good initial thoughts in any case; thank you!
What are the primary characteristics you think an effective “culture of progress” would have?
Do you see any concrete, meaningful steps being taken to get to such a culture? Any opportunities in that direction that you see that you wish were being worked toward right now but aren’t?
Among other things it’s important that people think that of themselves as having the agency to solve big problems; that innovation and entrepreneurship—basically just pioneering new paths—is one of the things that it’s normal to do with your life. I have written a bit about that here and here.
You can try to do that at scale by trying to impact pop culture, and I don’t doubt that works to some degree. But I think the challenge is you are trying to convince someone that people like you can innovate too; and there is an inherent distance between what’s in pop culture and yourself for most people, simply because most people are not the subject of movies, TV shows, profiles, etc. More effective if it’s your brother or classmate or coworker who models the innovative career path, since it’s a small leap to think “if they can do it, why not me?”
Any initiative that presents evidence to lobby for change is confronted with the question of how exactly that evidence may feed into the political or bureaucratic process that can bring about said change. To what extent, do you think, should the Institute of Progress concern itself with the study of this evidence-to-policy pipeline? How interesting is this topic to you in general, and which other players are well positioned to contribute to research on the topic?
Yeah, this is a hugely important topic that is tough to appreciate from outside. I’m fond of this quote by Duncan Watts:
”For 20 years I thought my job was, as a basic scientist, publish papers and throw them over the wall for someone else to apply. I now realise that there’s no one on the other side of the wall. Just a huge pile of papers that we’ve all thrown over.”
The conventional wisdom is that, at least in the USA, you need a think tank apparatus that specializes in digesting academic literature and packaging it for policy-making. That’s one of the roles that the Institute for Progress plays on the metascience front. Also, this general topic is something I hope to look into more as a New Things Under the Sun post.
In the economics of innovation, what are the big questions where there now is a relatively settled consensus? And what are the big open questions that the field is currently debating?
We have some big picture stuff pretty nailed down. To start, long-run improvements in material living standards have long been understood to arise primarily from improvements to technology, which emerge from R&D. It’s also pretty settled that much of the value of R&D spills over to people who are not the performer of R&D, and this means that in a laissez-faire system, R&D will be supplied at less than desirable levels. This problem is especially acute for fundamental science, which is primarily aimed at understanding how the world works. Most economists think the government is going to have to play a role in supporting, for example, fundamental scientific research.
Given that a laissez-faire system is going to undersupply R&D, what’s the best set of policy interventions? Here, there’s a lot more debate and uncertainty. For example, in this 2019 paper by Bloom, Van Reenen, and Williams, they try to describe some of the main policy tools available to influence innovation. In a table at the end of the paper, they evaluate the quality and conclusiveness of the evidence for different policies.
Settled issues, with high quality evidence:
Skilled migration is good
R&D tax credits work
Stuff we’re less sure about, either because evidence conflicts a bit, or we lack very good evidence:
Hi! I’m Jonathan Mazumdar, currently co-founder of Growth Teams, a new nonprofit that supports developing countries achieve catch-up growth.
For some time I’ve been interested in the history and economics of innovation and economic growth. One of the books that really ignited my interest in progress-related topics was Where Good Ideas Come From by Steven Johnson; I’m a big fan of all his work.
I’m drawn to progress studies due to the intrinsic satisfaction that comes from knowing the true origin of things, and the lessons that may be relevant both for frontier growth in high-income countries and for catch-up growth in developing countries.
The book The Cancer Code contains three stories about the cause of cancer.
The first cause is a story about toxins; examples are lung cancer caused by smoking and asbestos.
The second cause is cancer is a genetic disease. And the book documents two or three cancers that are genetic in origin.
The third cause is poor metabolic health. The book notes that obese and diabetic people have higher cancer rates for certain types of cancer than metabolically healthy people.
The vital part for people following scientific progress is the people that believe in genetics did not come from the toxin believers, and the metabolic health advocates did not come from the genetic cause believers.
The author Dr. Jason Fung MD tries to explain where the different groups of believers came from, but I need to understand institutions better to explain it.
Yes, I think fast progress is dangerous, because human beings are limited in how quickly they can adapt to change. Fast progress is dangerous because it further empowers violent men’s ability to crash the entire system.
The future of this civilization will be decided by our relationship with knowledge. Just as animals have to adapt to a changing environment or die, our relationship with knowledge has to adapt to a changing environment too.
Currently we’re operating from a “more is better” relationship with knowledge philosophy left over from the 19th century. That philosophy made sense in the long era of knowledge scarcity, an era we no longer live in. Today we live in a time when knowledge is exploding in every direction at an accelerating rate, a revolutionary new era very unlike the early knowledge scarcity era. New conditions require new thinking.
The idea that we should be generating more and more knowledge so as to obtain more and more power represents an immature understanding of the human condition. Such an assumption is instead bad engineering, as it doesn’t take in to account the limited nature of human ability.
The biggest threat to a better future, or pretty much any future worth living, is the marriage between violent men and the knowledge explosion.
How can biology help meet that threat? Could biology fundamentally change violent men? If not, could biology help remove violent men from the planet?
My vote, set all the other dreams above aside, and work on the violent men problem first. If that challenge is not met, whatever else might be achieved by biology is probably going to be erased by violent men sooner or later. As you know, the technology to make this happen is already in place, ready to go at a moment’s notice.
I’m working on the violent men problem on my blog. I don’t have a biology background, so assistance from those who do would be most welcome.
Violent men, in the sense that commits crime, are predominately young. In our society, the decision-makers who decide on war and peace are generally much older and not in that group. Queens waged more wars than kings.
Let’s commit massive genocide to archive world peace in itself is also not a peaceful plan.
I suspect the day-to-day tedium (or perceived tedium) of biology turns off more people than a lack of big-picture dreams. Suppose you dream of regrowing limbs. How will you actually be spending your days?
There’s also the cultural pushback—the ick factor, the Frankenstein fear, Leon Kass’s “wisdom of repugnance”—against anything too big in biology. People find big biological dreams much creepier than big dreams involving inanimate objects.
I love your essay’s attempt to draw out the domains of infectious disease and compare them with regard to progress via broad measures and more specific measures.
As someone who reads a lot of the news about new papers in both domains, I see the two domains are very similar in this regard. The floor upon which cancer research rests is the commonalities between cancers. For decades there has been a War on Cancer, and lots of things are unified across cancer, including public health efforts to avoid carcinogens.
Most striking, look at the pipeline page for any pharma company with a major cancer effort—like https://www.pfizer.com/science/oncology-cancer/pipeline—and you’ll find individual drugs being tested on cancers in multiple organs. For example Pfizer calls one of its compounds Braftovi, and they have Phase 2 or 3 trials using it for melanoma, colorectal cancer, and lung cancer. Similar marketed cancer drugs, like Gleevec, which is used for leukemia and other blood cancers, gastrointestinal stromal tumors, and skin tumors)
So the pharma intrustry is clearly fighting a war against cancer as a whole. Sam’s comment is perhaps a bit of an exaggeration—I’ve never heard a cancer researcher say that cancers are “mostly unrelated to each other”—but, more important, such comments have the context that cancers are a bundle of closely-related diseases, and everyone either knows this or thinks they’re a single disease.
I recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hallmarks_of_Cancer as the major framework that pulls together cancer into the major things that make a cancer succeed, including a somatic-mutation-rich environment, chronic inflammation, ability to replicate endlessly, evade the immune system, avoid programmed cell death, grow new blood vessels, and metastasize.
Another key to understanding cancer: knowing about the Oncogenic signaling pathways (p325 here: https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(18)30359-3.pdf). As far as I can tell these are much closer to being the actual “different diseases” in play than the various cancers named by organ. I don’t know how these pathways work, or even how exactly cancer breaks them—that’s a lot of molecular biology! -- but just knowing their names I find the daily news about the cancer literature more legible.
Looping back to the comparison made in your essay between infectious diseases and cancers, I’m struck that we started fighting infectious disease a lot earlier. For example John Snow figured out that you could avert cholera by keeping sewage out of the water supply in about 1850, and if I recall Steven Johnson’s book about public health, this was the beginning of a whole series of public health interventions against infectious disease. The idea of wearing sunscreen to avoid skin cancer seems to have come in during my childhood, over 100 years later. Same for the idea of averting lung cancer by not smoking.
I would list 3 major advances that have reduced infectious disease: public health measures, vaccines, and antibiotics. For cancer, the most effective measures are probably public health measures, surgery, chemo, and now immunooncology. Those best tools are all less effective than the best tools we use to fight infectious disease. That probably has a lot to do with how late the groundbreaking research started. Immunooncology only made its transition from minor theory to major treatment in about 2010. At a research level, treating cancer requires understanding molecular biology, and that discipline only really exploded in about 2000 when sequencing became cheap enough that we first sequenced a single human genome. There are obviously more big drug discoveries in the works, like CAR-T and cancer vaccines—let’s hope those scale, and let’s hope there are more new discoveries on the way.
Yes, we did start fighting infectious disease long before the germ theory. Most notably, the first immunization techniques, against smallpox, long predated the theory. Also there were sanitation reforms that helped significantly. But these methods were limited: e.g., no vaccines for any disease other than smallpox were created, and water sanitation did not include chlorination. Indeed, sometimes sanitation efforts backfired, as when Edwin Chadwick tried to clean up the stench of London by building sewers to drain all cesspools into the Thames, and ended up polluting the supply of drinking water. Progress was much more rapid and consistent after the germ theory.
I share a fondness for this topic and generally agree with your assessment; in fact in 2021 as part of a NASA challenge I was working on a project to design a closed-loop food system for long-duration space missions. One thing to note is that in any such closed system, the amount of material you have to carry initially scales exponentially with respect to your fraction lost per cycle.
Interestingly enough, I think having access to this technology would have a lot of effects beyond space; it would make humanity more robust in existential risk scenarios, and complex distributed manufacturing would have a large transformative (and IMO beneficial) impact on socioeconomic and political systems on Earth.
This forum and the movement in general are not really popular outside of some very small elite circles. I hope that changes and you manage to propagate the memes more widely. The normalization of declinism and romanticism^1 in most mainstream communities creates communication barriers and reduces the ability of society to make positive actions.
However, I am against progress maximalism as expressed on this forum. Let me elaborate my view, parts of which have definitely been expressed before:
The ideas of The Roots of Progress would be obviously correct in a world slightly different than ours.
I see “progress” as mining knowledge, enabling technology. There is no creation; every idea is waiting to get discovered, validated and applied. If something would improve our lives, it is indeed a moral imperative to “get it out of the ground”.
Almost all positive things that happened to humanity so far stem from mining technological progress (fire, agriculture, domestication of horses, fossil fuels, electricity, extermination of pathogens, contraception, computers, Internet), and the rest being some progress in social and political technology (religion, morals, basic freedoms, democracy, rule of law), with all of it being enabled by communication technology (language, writing, books, Internet platforms). We will make progress on all of the above in the future.
Of course, there is often negative “environmental impact”, coming from disruption or negative externalities . But in the end we always solve this by creating better social or scientific technologies, or the problems just disappear as people adapt.
Progress happens by mining for knowledge and applying that in the world. Some great people create new mines, others improve processes of existing mines. We need multiple mines doing their things, bringing about different ways to do stuff. Understanding the mechanisms behind mine creation and preservation will obviously give returns far exceeding the invested effort, if we leverage this knowledge to improve mining.
Unfortunately we find ourselves in a different world. A few years back we discovered mithril under a single mountain, which looks like it will make all but a tiny number of other ores obsolete in less than half of a human lifetime. Moreover, it is inherently easier to extract than what we are used to in other mines. The obvious goal missing from the progress framework is not to improve processes in all mines everywhere, it’s not even to optimize the mithril mining process. It is to make sure there are no demons of the ancient world^2 waiting inside.
The progress movement is nevertheless a positive thing, for various reasons:
if we close the mine for good, the spirit of progress must live on; almost no other mines can pose dangers that outweigh the benefits;
if for some reason the mithril vein is not as deep as it looks (and this is quite possible, but definitely not the modal outcome), we are soon again in the world where progress studies is obviously correct;
progress in other mines can make us better equipped for dealing with the one that matters;
(very ambitious) understanding the mechanisms of progress itself, if those generalize enough, might make us able to control the progress in the mithril mine.
But we must not forget that the following two bitter statements look more and more true each day:
Most existing problems look like they will be solved by default using just the outputs of the mithril mine! The actionable insights of progress studies will often be in areas which take several decades to give results.
Human agency is not infinite. We are not that smart. If we blindly rush into the unknown, it is possible we dig too deep. More importantly, given the mithril mine is going so well by default, focusing on minimizing the probability of things going wrong looks better than thinking about progress in areas which will get steamrolled by the mithril revolution.
^1: Romanticism of the past, or of nature, the status quo, or of anything that only looks nice but falls apart when faced with the test of “does moving in that direction really make our lives better?” ^2: It also makes sense to fight smaller negative externalities, because when the technology is so powerful, the sheer speed of deployment might overwhelm defensive mechanisms against irresponsible and bad-faith use, and be too fast for people to adapt while retaining sanity.
Hello! I’m Alex K. Chen (http://twitter.com/InquilineKea, https://linktr.ee/simfish,http://quora.com/Alex-K-Chen). I’m everywhere. I’m a singular individual and “interesting things happen around me” (esp b/c I always have an eye directed towards progress, even though I am super fine-grained and keep track of SO many things that it gives me ADHD [this is not a bad thing however!}) I am the living embodiment of “Why Greatness Cannot be Planned”/open-ended reinforcement learning/maximum-entropy reinforcement learning.
I have lots of access to new/early-stage people (including TKS’ers, Atlas Fellows, Interact Fellows, old Quora crowd) and might be the ideal inter-generational connector.
http://forum.longevitybase.org. I also know more than almost anyone in how to slow down rate of aging (which I also think is integral to progress studies, as people take WAY longer to “grow up” than ever before) [I know https://twitter.com/bkavoussi also got into longevity as of late]
Hi everyone! I’m Richard, an applied computational scientist working at a scale-up technology company in London. My main expertise is in machine learning, particularly predictive modelling. I’m particularly interested in “Progress-minded approaches to other issues of the day (climate change, poverty/inequality, war, etc.)” as listed in the FAQ relevant topics. On a more tediously technical level I’m keen to learn more about the models and processes that lead to reliable progress in science and technology, and how these can be applied in different contexts. Looking forward to arguing (politely) with you all!
Your latest article was something else! I would love to learn about your process of writing such essays from how you find the graphs to how you create the entire narrative. I’m especially interested in this section, “Are cargo airships startupable?” I enjoyed how you broke everything down using data, math, and other assumptions.
Unrelated: let me know if you’d be interested in a discussion/debate with a professor (in front of the entire class) with whom I’m taking a class about the future of energy. My professor thinks we should avoid growth, not use electricity and make it really expensive.
The key to the process on this one was first spending several years thinking about cargo airships and how you could make a business around them. I made my first phone call asking if I could buy a cargo airship over three years ago.
All charts other than the one I cribbed from the Review of Maritime Transport are original, either to me or to the engineer that did the trade study.
Once I sat down to write, the narrative came pretty easily. I just wrote what I thought, trying to explain why I thought airships are interesting and why they could be profitable and why it’s hard to get there from here (i.e., why I’m not starting an airship startup).
On cargo airships: has anyone analyzed designs that remain towed/tethered to surface routes/vessels?
For example, could an electric locomotive powered by ground lines tow far larger amounts of cargo via a tethered airship? Or, an oceangoing container ship tow more tonnage in its air-trailer than in its holds?
Alternatively, could such tethers-along-routes supply electricity to self-propelled airships, minimizing onboard fuel/generation weight?
Or, could airships receive beamed power from elsewhere? For example, tightly-planned routes might receive beamed power from surface stations – possibly even mid-ocean wind/solar/tide platforms. Or could arbitrary routes receive beamed power from solar-power satellites?
Might short-range drones, or even smaller airship lift platforms, enable loading/unloading smaller cargo onto larger airships without explicit landing stops- making the largest platforms permanent ‘conveyor belts’ in the skies?
Similar to your map showing where high-elevation mountains may present ‘no-go’ areas, are there regions where the constancy or unpredictability of high winds create no-go or highly-variable service limits? When an envisioned large ships hits unexpected/unpredicted high winds, what does it do to adapt? (Can it usually wait it out or ride the winds for mere delays, or are things like emergency landings or even scuttling the ship within the likely scenarios, under large scale operations?
If I understand the tethering question, I don’t think that would help. A train or container ship can already carry many times more cargo than an airship can.
When I looked at space-based solar power, I was struck that the wireless transmission was not much denser than solar (otherwise, they would pose a danger to the ground if they missed the receiver). I think putting thin-film solar could buy its way onto the top of the hull if it was cheap and light enough. I have heard about very high-powered laser propulsion systems for high-speed aircraft, but those seem a long way off.
If you’re talking about drones using rotary lift to carry 1 container at a time, those might need to be pretty powerful to work! I am not sure it calcs out. Would be cool if it worked though.
I am not aware of any no-go areas for wind. Would assume Antarctica might be bad, but it’s already no-go for altitude and few people live there anyway. I think you would want to design the mission to route around storms and just get there a day late if necessary (with a contract structure that reflects this possibility). You probably never want to scuttle the ship since it’s likely expensive compared to the cargo value.
So theoretical airship-cargo is still way more expensive per container or ton than either rail or container-ships – it just wins by speed or having more endpoints (like trucking)? Hence, ‘airship trailers’ provide no chance of incremental capacity boosts for surface vessels, if still limited to their speed/endpoints?
Capping laser/microwave/etc beamed power density to what’s safe for failure situations where it’s “missed the receiver” seems prematurely restrictive. What if misses are so rare, & so easily detected/ended-instantly, that such a limit is an inefficient way to increase safety compared to other tactics? If the big market is over unpopulated oceans, is the concern for brief rare misses that high? (And is the “long way off” for things like laser-propulsion or power-delivery really longer than the other engineering/regulatory hurdles involved?)
Drones (including airship-bouyant drones, not just multicopters) to ferry full containers to passing-by megaships would be interesting – but I was thinking as small as individual packages, dropping and rising from households & individual businesses. (At some margin, can automated megaships be warehouses/fulfillment-centers?)
By my intutions, I find wind issues underdiscussed in these next-generation airship visions. It amazes me the wind conditions in which winged flight remains tractable – but those craft seem to rely heavily on actively avoiding the worst conditions, & their own momentum/strong-propulsion. Airships feel at much greater mercy of winds, for both predictable-service/efficiency & safety. Deeper analyses of how frequently there’d be delays, emergency groundings, service outages, etc from wind conditions would better help sell the vision.
I think airships could in principle approach rail costs but it would add a lot of complexity relative to just running another train on the same track. Big container ships are always going to be cheaper, I think.
FAA and pilots get mad about people pointing laser pointers into the sky.
I agree winds are super important and must be designed for and planned for in routing. Using them for sailing (added propulsion) is also promising.
Stably-positioned, heavily-capitalized, professionally-managed, presumably-licensed beamed-power infrastructure, such as terrestrial power stations or solar power satellites, aren’t really like random malicious or careless people with portable lasers. So if beamed-power otherwise becomes technically practical/beneficial, this seems a safety/perception/regulation challenge not especially larger than the many others involved here.
Hi Eli, I read your piece on the regulatory barriers to AI progress having material impacts on society. For me this pushes things in the direction of “we’ll have more AI automation of AI R&D before big societal trends in job automation”, which could imply faster AI progress generally if labs are focused more on their own AI → research automation → better AI feedback loop. I do think that an AI that could perform basically any jobs (not requiring hands) as well as a human for pennies on the dollar would radically transform society, but maybe we don’t see as much change in AI systems until then. This Metaculus question (https://www.metaculus.com/questions/3698/when-will-an-ai-achieve-a-98th-percentile-score-or-higher-in-a-mensa-admission-test/) on when an AI will get a Mensa-worthy iq score (current prediction: April 2028) suggests to me that we’re not far away from AGI. What do you think? My sense is that you’re much less bullish on AI progress than e.g. the LessWrong or EA communities.
I think the kinds of tests that prove that a human is intelligent or sentient or whatever are not the same as the kinds of tests that prove a computer program is sentient.
For example, imagine a test where we timed the test-taker on how long it takes to multiply two 8-digit numbers together. For most humans, this would take several minutes. For even a dollar-store calculator, it would take under a second.
For many decades, Alan Turing’s proposal that a computer that could converse indistinguishably from humans would be a sign of human-level sentience and intelligence was widely accepted. I myself thought, “Sure, sounds good,” when I first heard of it.
But actually, it turns out that carrying out a conversation for machines is easier than we thought. There is no real cognition going on inside ChatGPT. It is spitting out answers based on a statistical function trained on encoded inputs and outputs.
I think it is quite possible that an AI will achieve a 98th percentile score on a Mensa test by 2028 (maybe earlier). What I don’t think is that that will be a sign of human-level sentience or intelligence. It’s a sign of being able to mimic a few salient aspects of human intelligence.
To get to parity with human brain experience, we need several orders of magnitude higher computational efficiency to match neurons. We don’t need to get there all the way on efficiency; we can do some by burning more energy. Even so, it will take a couple of decades in my estimation.
And even so, there is still the possibility that we don’t really understand how the neurons work and we could be way off base! Michael Levin has pointed out that a caterpillar essentially disassociates its brain to become a butterfly, and yet somehow it retains at least some memories. I think we are far from really grokking it.
Huh, it’s hard for me to imagine reaching a 98th-percentile IQ score without the ability to do lots of cognitive work (I’m not talking about some model fine-tuned on IQ tests or whatever, just a general language model that happens to score well on the test). I have different intuitions about the calculator example: the point I take away from it is...we use calculators all the time! I’m perfectly content calling calculators a transformative innovation, though these language models are already much more general than the calculator.
Re: “There is no real cognition going on inside ChatGPT. It is spitting out answers based on a statistical function trained on encoded inputs and outputs.” This seems like a No True Scotsman that will keep you from noticing how their capabilities are improving. SSC’s take on GPT-2 was good for this, and imo got extremely vindicated when the GPT family went from an interesting toy to being able to create real economic value.
Re: Have you read Gwern’s stuff on machine learning scaling? All of the “we don’t really understand it” takes on a very different tone when you read his “deep learning wants to work” take. A technique that AI researchers disdain because it doesn’t match their love for theory, that works anyway, that then the whole SV community realizes is really promising...strikes me as something real and useful we accidentally discovered in the world. That we don’t understand it doesn’t stop it from working, that every basic little trick we try yields more fruit suggests that the fruit is really extremely low-hanging. For me, it’s worrying because I think we need good theory to learn how to control it, but the basic case for this being a thing doesn’t seem in question.
What are your thoughts on the Inflation Reduction Act passed last year? I have read that it is protectionist in nature and could divert investment from Europe and other places.
Also, what do you think about the potential of small modular nuclear reactors?
- Very expensive, and we should take fiscal responsibility more seriously than we do. - Has some good stuff in it. - Will only translate into significant change in the real world if it is paired with permitting reform and other policies focused on deployment. Right now we are basically subsidizing companies to push through the headaches associated with getting to market, but it makes more sense to reduce the headaches. - It is more protectionist than I would like, but Europe is the most mercantilist place on Earth, so I don’t have a lot of sympathy for them on this.
SMRs:
- The lowest possible LCOE that you can get with SMRs is higher than the lowest possible LCOE that you can get with gigawatt-scale plants. - That said, SMRs could theoretically solve the biggest problem that we have in nuclear, which is that we don’t churn out identical plants in high numbers. - Also, SMRs allow lower-scale plants, which means less reliance on transmission infrastructure, which is important. - I’d like to see ultra-small reactors become a thing. Kilowatt-scale. Generator replacements. Portable. - To really make nuclear portability work, it would be good to have solid-state thermal conversion, like thermoelectric generators or thermophotovoltaics. These would be more compact than turbines, and could come down in cost faster.
In the short term, I am doing some geothermal projects, and then possibly writing a book.
Longer term, I have a lot I’d like to do. If I ever found myself in a position where I could seize real power, I would take it and use it to promote progressy things.
I really enjoy the part of my job where I talk to people working on promising hard tech startups; often they need a bit of advice or some introductions to people in my network. I’d like to do more to help them, as they are often brought into contact with the barriers and obstacles I spend so much time thinking about.
I do wish someone else besides me would start a cargo airship company and do it right, with iterative design and a focus on getting to 500+ tons of cargo as quickly as possible.
How would you restructure the production of education and research? Universities are clearly pretty inefficient. How to improve them? Are there any politically feasible plans? Will AIs just obviate internal reform by creating an entirely new form of education and research?
The biggest problem that I see in college education is that most people don’t actually want to learn very much. College social life is undeniably fun, and although most people find a few classes they enjoy, they’re there for the experience + the credential.
I don’t know how to fix it because I think there is demand for the current system, but there should be at least one college with unlimited enrollment that is rigorous enough that it weeds out the people who aren’t giving it their best effort. Maybe it should be self-paced, with a massive total learning requirement so that it takes the best students four years and others longer. The degree would be worth more than other degrees in the end because it is so rigorous.
I think recorded lectures would be a part of it, but you’d probably still need/want human tutors and performance coaches. Motivation is often the scarce factor; if it wasn’t you could learn just about anything with a library card.
AI can help with both content and motivational scripts but I don’t think it’s a radical difference from what we can do now with non-AI methods.
If Rigorous U took off this would separate researchers further from undergraduate students. Research labs could be separate institutions even. I’d like to see researchers spend more time exposed to industry. At least once in their career they should take a basic science breakthrough and try to take it all the way to commercialization. Yes, there are gains from specialization, but there are also gains from a broader range of experience and contacts.
I’m not optimistic that any of this is socially or politically feasible.
Given that the supreme court frequently ruled against NEPA, why aren’t there more cases involving NEPA in front of the supreme court to curb its excesses?
It’s true, the Supreme Court has ruled against vetocracy with NEPA every time, usually unanimously. I think for potential litigants, there isn’t much value in going all the way to the Supreme Court. It’s possible the court won’t hear your case, so you have to take steps to comply with the lower court’s ruling anyway. Once you’re doing that, spending more on litigation isn’t going to get you anything; you can always just fix the EIS and move forward.
In other words, taking a case to the Supreme Court for the purpose of setting a new precedent is a public good, and a lot of people don’t supply public goods all by themselves.
That still seems surprising to me. The Koch’s for example seem to be very willing to spend a lot of money think tanks to advance the public good as they see it.
Is there a reason why billionaires like the Koch’s who are willing to spend money on policy changes don’t care about NEPA?
But there are organizations that bring cases as a public good and they pay for the litigation. On the left, ACLU. For libertarians, the Institute for Justice (IJ). IJ identifies laws or regulations they want to dispute and then find a sympathetic plaintiff to represent. Someone like you would probably do a lot of good by convincing IJ to find some NEPA cases to bring.
Peter Thiel recently argued that a slowdown in progress is overdetermined, and due in part to a widespread fear of progress itself. Should we be focusing on the mass psychology needed to support progress? What might help?
I think it’s true to some extent that the masses exert some demand for stagnation.
The way I’ve been thinking about it is that laws and norms are ways of solving iterated prisoner’s dilemmas. But because of loss aversion, there isn’t symmetry in the kinds of PDs that get solved this way. The “prevent something bad from happening” PDs get solved more than the “make something great happen” PDs do. (This is essentially the Nietzschean distinction between slave morality and master morality, applied to laws as well as morals.)
I don’t think the masses are ever going to change. Rather, I think elites need to compensate and be advocates for great things happening. There needs to be an elite conspiracy to elevate humanity far above where it would otherwise be willing to go.
A lot of policy change can happen with only elite consensus. In my work I focus a lot on small changes that need not concern most people, like a categorical exclusion for geothermal energy. Or changing how the Department of Energy does contracting for demonstration projects. I think a promising way to increase progress is to subtly remove a lot of small obstacles like this.
Maybe if we can get a few great, visible achievements it will soften mass opposition to some degree.
What’s your theory of political authority? Do citizens have a moral responsibility to obey government more than other organizations? What are the proper limits to government authority? How does this figure into your policy recommendations?
I don’t think there is any account of political authority that isn’t defeated by the standard objections.
For purely prudential reasons, I think people should give some deference to governments as long as the government is mostly functional and aligned with the population. Living in a state where the government is ineffective is not generally pleasant, and we should all in some sense be rooting for the government to succeed at least at its basic functions.
I don’t think there is a set of given-from-on-high proper limits to what the government should do, but I prefer modest aims executed with competence and focus compared to what we have now.
My recommendations don’t generally speak to the overall size or role of government. For the most part, I am trying to help the government succeed by its own lights—often by helping it get out of its own way. I think this approach gets me in with both Democrats and Republicans and makes me more effective than if I founded my ideas in a more explicit ideology.
In your post from 2019 on moving the needle of progress, you mention health (or better, wellness) as one of four key levers toward progress, and you highlight patient empowerment and using data from wearable devices as potentially big opportunity.
Do you have any thoughts on what is stopping this from happening? It seems that using data to empower people to live healthier is a win all around: better quality of life/more energy/less pain for the individual, lower medical cost for the insurance and employer, and higher worker productivity. Why aren’t we, for example, seeing health insurance plans that incentivize healthy behavior that can be tracked via wearables and provide meaningful financial incentives (similar to safe driver programs)?
I think the biggest obstacle is FDA clearance for these devices.
The FDA seems to be concerned about people using consumer-grade products to make medical decisions. Let’s say Apple or Google release a smart watch with non-invasive blood glucose capability. Maybe it’s not perfectly accurate, but still useful information for non-diabetics to see how their blood glucose spikes after eating and to monitor the speed at which the body clears out the glucose.
If a diabetic customer starts giving themselves insulin shots based on the watch instead of a measurement from a medical device, that could be bad. Therefore, FDA is very restrictive about devices that report medically-relevant facts, even if there are disclaimers that they should not be used for medical purposes.
So it’s a slog to get the new non-invasive tech to be as accurate as medical-grade tech, to prove that they are equally accurate, and/or to get FDA to sign off on disclaimers that say the data shouldn’t be used to administer medication, etc.
I still think we’ll get there. There’s some info online about the Apple/Rockley Photonics partnership. You can expect a future Apple Watch to have not only its current sensor suite but also measurements for blood pressure, blood alcohol, lactate, and glucose. Blood pressure in the next 2 years, the rest maybe a couple of years later.
Why aren’t insurance companies paying for it yet? I think the current device sensor suite isn’t high enough on cost-benefit for them yet. As prices come down and the new capabilities are added, it seems like a no-brainer. Like in 2035 a device with all the capabilities I described above might be $100. Probably worth it then.
Thanks for the quick response, Eli. My follow-up is similar to Jasons: I’m wondering not so much why insurance companies don’t pay for these devices right now, but more why there isn’t a push to use them to financially reward or incentivize healthy behavior or outcomes.
For example, if it costs an insurance company $10K more to care for someone with diabetes than someone without, what if the insurer offered the patient a deal: if via non-medication means you reverse your diabetes (as measured by insulin and hemoglobin A1C or HbA1c test), we’ll pay you $5,000 (or, if they pay privately for their insurance, we’ll give you a year-end cost refund of $$).
Or, different approach: if you do specific behaviors that we know will lead to your diabetes improving, we’ll pay you a certain amount per month each month you meet the targets consistently (e.g., wear a fitness tracker and exercise 5x per week for 30 min at vigorous intensity and wear a continuous glucose monitor and stick to a 10-hour feeding window by practicing intermittent fasting for at least 20 days/month).
Of course, the details would need to be worked out and there are lots of questions (e.g., how does this work for people who are already metabolically healthy vs. those who aren’t). But there are companies playing this space at a small scale, using biofeedback and clear lifestyle incentives to improve health outcomes (albeit without insurance pay-back), such as VirtaHealth, Levels, and HealthyWage, and commercial supportive counseling programs like Noom.
Given how immense the cost of metabolic disease is for individuals and society I’m surprised that there isn’t a larger effort to use these trackers to fundamentally change how the incentives work. Wouldn’t it be better if insurance companies actually helped people get healthy, rather than pay for ongoing medication for multiple chronic diseases?
I’m really curious if anyone has done any digging on the regulatory barriers that would make it hard to make this happen. (Or maybe this is an untapped business opportunity for someone, if there aren’t any major regulatory hurdles!)
Thanks for that link, Eli. This is exactly the type of context I was looking for. It woulds like there is a regulatory hurdle here with significant potential liability if the program were to get challenged as not meeting those requirements both on the actual program design and on the documentation.
I meant more on the question of financial incentives for metrics. Basically, charging healthy people less / charging more for risk factors. Are you allowed to do this? I think some amount of this is allowed in some jurisdictions, but are there crucial limitations on it?
The ability to charge people more and less based on observed (but not demographic) characteristics got pretty limited by the Affordable Care Act. I’m not sure of the details, however.
1. Housing is, depending on the year, 15-18% of GDP, and if we could get that for free, it would tautologically increase productivity. Also, high housing costs limit agglomeration effects by pricing some people out of the most productive markets. There are a bunch of other negative effects of high housing prices. I’d refer you to “the housing theory of everything” for a discussion.
2. I think the “lobbying super-army” we need is elite consensus. If we convinced all the smart people that vetocracy is a bad way to achieve environmental goals, that would basically do it.
3. If we deregulated housing, people in general would not have to commute as far! But yes, transit construction in the US is often a mess.
4. The price of solar is truly going down. It’s not just because incentives are offsetting the cost. However, I do think it is an open question how far the costs can keep falling.
5. Department level? Department of Energy. Agency level? FAA.
That’s a broad question, but as it relates to progressy things, I think imagination about what the future could hold is certainly a factor in the kind of social ambitions that we aspire to.
It’s a common belief among some economic historians, for example, that we have already picked the low-hanging fruit. There are no new inventions in their mind that could match the inventions of the 19th and 20th centuries in terms of providing explosive growth. Maybe they’re right, but I can certainly imagine new inventions that could change everything.
As I argued previously on Progress Forum, futurism is important for producing a concrete vision that can inform our goals.
Getting online in the mid-90s was huge. The web was tiny back then, but it was still such a window to the world. I tinkered with everything, taught myself HTML, played with hacker tools, read The Anarchist Cookbook, made myself a Geocities page, etc.
The other formative thing was in college, discovering economics, which was a way of thinking that comes completely naturally to me. Finally, people are making some sense, I thought. In my early 20s, the Econ blogging scene was crucial. These are my people, I thought, and I ended up putting myself at the center of that group by going to GMU for a PhD.
I loved your idea that Congress should have incentive pay based on growth in John Fernald’s Total Factor Productivity series. I would also argue that it’s important for that incentive to be smooth and linear from 0% to 7%, and that the ideal amount is large—at least $100,000 for each 1% (annually).
My big question: do you think there’s a chance of getting this done?
Hi Eli! You told me a little about this the last time we chatted in person, and I’d love to hear more: Could ould you elaborate a little more on your “theory of change”? That is, how do you see your day to day work resulting in the kind of improvements you want to see?
And for experienced working professionals looking to maybe make a more impactful career switch: any underrated or not well known career paths that you wished more people embarked on that could help? And any particular industry backgrounds/expertise that you wish were more involved in the policy conversations?
As a writer: influencing other people, building consensus on what the problems are, building a network of people that are aligned.
As a researcher: coming up with highly-specific policy solutions to an important problem. Ideally, this would be a small, non-controversial provision that someone could slip into a bill unnoticed.
So for example, I have written a lot about the problems with NEPA and permitting, and I think there’s been a consensus developed among a big chunk of the political spectrum that it’s a real problem and we need to fix it. At the same time, I have been trying to push a specific fix for geothermal permitting, which is to give it the same categorical exclusion that oil and gas has.
Two different kinds of change, and I try to do both, but succeeding at the latter is rare and extremely valuable such that if you do it only a few times in your life that is a successful career.
On career switching: I would advise people to look less at creating a coherent career, where there is a logical progression from one step to the next, and to instead just find a job that interests and inspires you to do your very best work. My own career has been pretty haphazard: I was going to be a professor, then no just kidding I’m going to do nonprofit policy research, then oh no I am going to work at a startup, then back to policy research. None of this was part of a deliberate plan.
One heuristic that I think works well:
1. What do you think is the single most interesting thing going on right now? 2. How can you put yourself at the center of that thing?
I’ve recently been watching many clips of the TV Show, The Last of Us. While Mycologists insist that there are no zombie fungi, the loose talk about a new pandemic and the failure to create a universal covid vaccine has taught many people (including me) a deep dread. For example, the declining nutritional value of food could be causing Colon Cancer in young people. Medical science’s slow pace also fails to find treatments for scary diseases like ALS. How do you remain in a positive headspace when there’s so much negative news?
“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.”
And Nietzsche’s new year’s resolution is words to live by:
“I want to learn to see more and more as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who makes things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all and all and on the whole: someday I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.”
I’m amazed that existence exists at all. Every moment is a gift.
Referencing your recent AI article (which is great!):
How much of the problem of digital technology being hard to implement productively because of social/legal/policy stuff:
A path dependency issue: digital technology just has to exist substantively before the social/legal/policy environment is generated, improved and optimized to accommodate it?
To the extent this path dependency exists, do you think we could be doing more to prime the social/legal/policy environment for new technologies preemptively? Is better anticipation of the social/legal/policy needs of digital technology feasible? Or are the main gains (or least reckless approaches) to be found in speeding up the accommodation process for digital technology once it exists, and its practical applications become clearer.
For 1 & 2, how do you see the answers varying across different sectors of the economy?
I don’t think path dependency is the right way of looking at it. I’d frame it rather differently:
We are doing a bunch of clown stuff that is holding back productivity improvements all the time. There is nothing about that is unique to AI. However, it’s possible that it will become especially apparent that we are erecting all these obstacles ourselves as we observe AI getting very productive in unregulated or otherwise functional sectors.
Absolutely, we should be dismantling the clown policies proactively, but it isn’t proactive with respect to AI particularly, it’s just that we should not have clown policies in the first place.
Do you have any views about wireless power beaming, both shorter-distance charging and longer-distance transmission? It seems to me that this is a potentially underrated technology, if it can unlock the potential of other technologies that currently face energy storage or transportation constraints (EVs, robotic exoskeletons, perpetual-flight drones & aerial platforms, remote wind/solar etc).
I got interested in wireless transmission for space-based solar. A lot of people have had doubts for a long time about whether the math works for space-based solar, but both panels and launch prices have plummeted, so people are giving it a second look.
One of the things about wireless transmission that could add value to space-based solar is being able to shift output on the fly from one receiver on Earth to another on a millisecond-to-millisecond basis. I thought that was pretty cool.
I haven’t really looked at it for terrestrial applications, though.
Policy barriers aside, speaking strictly from considerations of technology and economics, what is the ideal near-term future for energy? Nuclear, geothermal, solar? Maybe even solar-powered fuel synthesis like Terraform Industries is doing? Or what combination of the above?
A very important question is how long solar prices can continue to drop.
Assuming it continues a while, I have questions about whether it makes sense to transmit electricity long distances in such a world. A lot of smart people think transmission is very important to the clean energy buildout, but I don’t know. Transmission adds a fair bit of cost, and if solar gets cheap then it might make sense to pay the rooftop premium rather than the transmission premium.
So if solar keeps dropping in price, it may make sense to have rooftop solar everywhere + off-grid solar to power industrial applications.
Gigawatt-scale nuclear I think we could do for LCOE of 2¢/kWh if the industry and regulations were not so dysfunctional. Modular reactors will always be more expensive than that (maybe 4¢ best-case scenario), but the advantage of modular is that you reach some level of scale in manufacturing and deployment, which is where gigawatt-scale has really sucked (every gigawatt plant is bespoke). Modular is also better because you don’t have to do as much transmission as in a GW-scale plant.
If we get good at drilling holes in the ground, I think 3¢/kWh almost anywhere on the planet would be a good target for advanced geothermal. Also comes with the advantage of not having to worry about spent fuels and nuclear proliferation. Geothermal is also fantastic for low-grade heat needed for certain industrial processes like paper mills.
Wind is already pretty cheap, but it relies heavily on long-distance transmission, which as I’ve noted is a headache.
For mobile applications, high-density batteries are definitely possible. Batteries that have near the energy density of liquid hydrocarbon fuels have already been made in the lab, the challenge is switching over the manufacturing system and reaching scale.
Synthesizing liquid hydrocarbons is a great solution, especially until really high-density batteries arrive. I believe I bought the first quantity of zero-carbon jet fuel in the world when I was at Boom.
So many of the regulatory/policy barriers to progress seem so daunting. Using the “Important, Tractable, Neglected” heuristic, what are the top opportunities to unblock progress? Put another way perhaps, if you were writing a priority list for an organization like the Institute for Progress or Balsa Research, what would you go after?
I kind of did this analysis in 2019 on “how to move the needle on progress” and landed on health, housing, energy, and transportation as important sectors to fix.
If you think about it in productivity terms, in general equilibrium, low-productivity-growth sectors will tend to get bloated as a percent of GDP, while high-productivity-growth sectors will tend to shrink.
I still think the 2019 analysis is basically right, although I would emphasize one particular aspect of tractability, which is having a specific solution in mind. Tom Kalil talks about this as a test of policy maturity: suppose you have a 15-minute meeting with the President of the United States, and after the meeting the President is willing to call somebody and tell them what to do. Who do you have him call and what do you have him tell them to do? Until you have an answer to that question, your policy solution isn’t mature.
I think there’s a division of labor in the policy world between the more researchy and more activist groups. The researchy people should be working to discover mature policy ideas (in the Tom Kalil sense) and then the more activist groups should be working to get them implemented.
So for the research side, who are starting out without mature policy ideas and trying to generate them, tractability isn’t really a concern, it’s more about importance. The goal is to generate something tractable. The more activist people need to think more about taking the mature policy idea and running with it, and for them, tractability (political viability, etc.) is more important starting out.
Progress is so hard to come by in the policy world that I don’t think we should disqualify anything for not being neglected. Even housing/YIMBY stuff, I’m happy for more people to go into it if it gets us over the line.
So policy researchers should work on big industrial sectors like health, housing, energy, and transportation (and major cross-cutting issues like immigration and permitting), and try to come up with mature policy ideas that increase productivity. Then the more activist groups should take the tractable ideas and amplify them and try to get them over the line.
If I’m writing a priority list for another org, the first question I’d ask is whether you want to be a more researchy org or a more activist org.
Thanks, Eli! This is a super helpful framing to me as I think about our role here at The Roots of Progress.
Follow-on question: when you say “researchy” do you mean academia—or do you mean groups in the more public intellectual policy space (think tanks) that take on more of an explainer rather than activist bend?
The latter, although sometimes they overlap with academia. For example, CGO and Mercatus publish a lot of academics and are situated within universities.
I’m Nuño Sempere, a researcher at the Quantified Uncertainty Research Institute, where I work on refining broadly utilitarian estimation methods. I have a blog here—where I post my research but also offer cancellation insurance or talk abou the joys of programming a browser in C—and a forecasting newsletter here. I learnt about this place through EA (effective altruism), which I’ve become a bit disillusioned about.
I am blessedly exempt from having to deal with any financial or management issues at the CGO, so I don’t know. We do get along with the USU administration really well, though.
There are two magic buttons, as follows, but you can only press one. Which would be better for progress and why?
We instantly get the ideal legal/regulatory/policy environment for progress, across the board (this button does not affect science or R&D)
We instantly get huge scientific/R&D breakthroughs: cure for cancer and aging, nanotech that works, fusion that works, benevolent AI (this button does not affect anything social, so all these things would face today’s regulatory environment)
Given the trade you’ve laid out, I’d take the scientific breakthroughs.
I think there is no agency to regulate nanotech, so it would be a “born free” industry, and we’d see a lot of rapid progress. Benevolent AI too. On the cancer and aging cures, yes, FDA is broken, but they’d get through approval in several years, and then we’d have them.
I do think, however, that the policy environment is worth many years of R&D breakthroughs, perhaps 10 or more. We’d get a revitalized transportation and energy industry, dirt cheap housing, better consumer health tech, and a faster rate of R&D development going forward. It wouldn’t take much unbalancing of the scales to make me flip the answer.
1. Deregulate land use (YIMBY stuff) 2. Make transportation insanely great: eVTOL, supersonics, small airports with minimal screening, autonomous dynamic bus service 3. Lower the cost of clinical trials and expand freedom to go around the FDA through informed consent 4. Reform permitting/abolish NEPA/end vetocracy 5. Energy abundance/fix the NRC/fix the nuclear industry/expand geothermal/deploy solar 6. Make government that works and is run by grown-ups (I am a big fan of ranked choice voting for this) 7. Big increases in immigration, with concessions to the xenophobes that immigrants probably need to speak English and get deported if they commit serious crimes 8. End make-work policies that are embedded in almost every sector 9. Make sure safety rules are at least actually adding safety instead of safety theater
Is there good writing somewhere on how to lower the cost of clinical trials 10x? If we focus on the actual cost-lowering, rather than pure deregulation, it’s a rare area where I’ve never even seen someone who seems to know what to do.
I’m also curious to know if you think that centralization, the way that other movements (I’m thinking of effective altruism) have specific cause area prioritizations that proponents tend to follow, is a good or a bad thing. In your opinion, what qualities make an effective modern movement that can actually get things done?
I am glad the progress movement is still decentralized and organic. It’s more a community of fellow-travelers than a centralized organization setting priorities and allocating funding. I feel like I gain a lot from people in the community who are pursuing very different approaches than I am, and I don’t want that to stop.
I think being organic is better for influencing the culture in the long run. For getting specific things done, if we ever agree on what is to be done, we may need to think about some light centralization at some point.
Is there any hope that fixing the regulatory causes of stagnation is ultimately a matter of lobbying, which in turn can be viewed as a kind of “content generation”?
I think “slow” vs. “fast” is just the wrong way to conceptualize the decision/tradeoff. We should be thinking about how to steer progress and how to sequence it. “Pedal to the metal” or “damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead” is not safe, but merely slowing down doesn’t really help. We should, for example:
take whatever time is necessary (but no more than that) to do appropriate, useful safety testing on new technologies
invest in inventing safety measures, ideally in the first version of new technologies
think about what types of technologies are more likely to “favor offense” vs. “favor defense” and use that to guide our research
None of these are a simple “slow down,” except in the sense that clinical trials “slow down” drug development.
But it’s a non sequitur to say “it would have saved lives for seat belts to have been invented earlier, therefore all technology and inventions should progress as fast as possible for maximum safety.” Not all inventions are like seat belts.
This text is short, so more nuances could be added. But I touch on the things you mention:
I think the general angst over one technology plowing ahead much further than the rest is exaggerated:
“Of course, giving Caligula a nuclear bomb wouldn’t be great. But the risk of one technology progressing much faster than the general level of knowledge is low. Innovation depends on earlier innovation. There is a reason the Romans didn’t have a Manhattan Project. If we increase the rate of innovation in one area, it will spill over and increase innovation in other areas as well.”
David Deutsch also touches on this in a quote: ”The first flight of an airliner should not be carrying passengers. One should not trust the first predator 🐺 that seems friendly. But there is also danger from intangible enemies within, like taboos and pessimism. So one shouldn’t forgo the option to experiment with making use of the wolf. Unbeknownst to the people who first tried that, it would go on to create a new species 🦮 that could be of immense use – including guiding blind humans during the millennia before blindness is cured.”
What I try to get across is that fast progress is often described, wrongly, like you do now, “pedal to the metal.” 😀 That is often taken as an excuse to argue for slowing down or stopping progress—and that is more dangerous than trying to speed things up.
I agree that “one technology plowing ahead much further than the rest” is unlikely, but I don’t think that’s the issue.
To return to your seat belt example: seat belts were invented and widely deployed only after cars had been around for decades. Car technology got way ahead of car safety technology. That’s the sort of pattern I think we should reduce in the future.
There are other analyses saying similar things about the slowdown of science, but Noah Smith argued (persuasively, to me) that this paper’s metric likely just measures changing norms around citation.
Just arrived! We have a table in the way back but since it’s restaurant week (which I did not realize) we may move to the bar, since they’re not doing happy hour at tables.
I think to get to the “agenda” stage of the idea machine, a key is making sure that we’re acting in the real world. We can wish upon every star that zoning laws were reformed to make it easier to build housing, or that ALARA was repealed and more sensible nuclear regulation put in its place, but those items might not be the best fits for the agenda if we’re not able to realistically achieve them. They’re hard political problems to solve that will require a lot of resources, political savvy, and likely a large coalition! And others (such as YIMBY, for housing) are likely better equipped to lead the change on them.
I think our asset, or our “brand”, is that we’re a group of people that really like technological & economic progress, and we’re interested in why it happened, how it can be replicated, and what we could do to accelerate it. That’s the kind of people that this group is going to attract. So what can we do to help these people push for a progress agenda?
I really like the idea of a career guide. That’s something actionable that we can achieve. I guess I’m biased because I’m hosting the Philly meetup tomorrow, but I also think doing those kinds of networking events are valuable ways to grow the “Progress Studies” offering and see who is invested enough in it to get it into the real world. Who shows up to these sorts of things, what they’re interested in doing, etc. informs what might be possible agenda wise—in addition to everybody present making connections that could help for scientific, entrepreneurial, or career opportunities.
I also like this forum as a way for generating ideas, exploring possibilities, and learning new things. I agree with you and Jason there as well. One of these days I’m going to do a post on Precisionism, but I haven’t made it to the Demuth museum out in Lancaster yet and want to visit before I do.
I think another value we could offer would be if we wanted to organize a bookshare of some kind. I find that the local library doesn’t have a great selection of economic history or technical books, so if that’s something that we could organize, I think people might find it valuable. I often see a book mentioned by Jason or another columnist/blogger and will buy it to read it, but then I’d be happy to loan that book out to people once I finish it. On the borrowing side, I recently had to do an interlibrary loan from Tennessee to borrow a copy of a planning standards guide I needed for a project. There’s probably other directions we could take this concept for having a library or directory of resources as well. I know some groups do things with tool shares, and it might be nice to have a “who’s who in progress studies directory” for connecting people with each other as well?
Unfortunately, all the links on RicardoHausmann.com explaining how Growth Diagnostics actually work appear to be dead links to me. Do you have another recommended source to understand exactly what growth diagnostics is and how it works? The EA forum post didn’t really seem to get into the details.
I think these are good ideas and I too would like to see more of the kinds of things you list above.
I’d love for this Forum to serve as the first draft of a lot of this stuff. For instance, if people want to write up specific cause areas, or lists of cause areas, so we can all start discussing them, that would be great. We could create a new tag “Cause Areas” so that they are organized in one place and easy to find.
Do we want to have media that contributes to a better future? Do we want to fuel content grounded in reason, logic, and common sense?
Focus on nuclear weapons.
There is no other factor within human control that can so quickly and so decisively end our hopes for a better future. The vast majority of other subjects being discussed in “constructive journalism” are really mostly a dangerous distraction from that which will decide our future.
Happily, we seem to be emerging from climate change denial, and now pretty much the entire population is alert to this danger, and receptive to plans to address this challenge. Unhappily, nuclear weapons denial disease remains rampant, pervasive, and durable, even at the very highest levels of our society.
This claim will now be disputed in following comments. The debate may be interesting for a few days, but then it will become boring, and we’ll drop right back in to nuclear weapons denial, and sweep it back under the rug so as to return our focus to sexier topics like AI. And this is the mechanism by which the brighter future you dream of will be destroyed.
Given the pervasive nature of nuclear weapons denial, every mention of these weapons in any media is an act of constructive activism. It’s not necessary to agree with any particular point of view. Just say the words “nuclear weapons” where ever you can, and you’re making a constructive contribution.
I think the best argument for abundance as a spiritual good is that it’s allowed us to widen our circle of compassion. Once we stop seeing the world as zero sum, we see that others unlike us deserve moral consideration.
Do you think defining ‘progress’ is an important part of the agenda? Or is it more of a distraction?
Far as I can tell, there are 3 different potential definitions for progress:
Essentially just technological/scientific progress
Some consequentialist-ish idea like “people are happier/wealthier”
Any change in society or technology which is not a reversion to something that has been done before
Options #1 and especially #2 leave fairly little room for discussion on whether or not any specific instance of progress is a good thing, while option #3 is much more morally neutral, but perhaps not what people have in mind when they think of ‘progress’.
Interesting; since as far as I can tell, Tyler Cowen and Patrick Collison use definition #2 in the now-famous Atlantic article: “In an era where funding for good projects can be hard to come by, or is even endangered, we must affirmatively make the case for the study of how to improve human well-being.”
Maybe PS adopted definition #1 instead to avoid seeming redundant compared to EA?
I love that this topic (and tension) is getting a little focus, but I do wish you would respond to a steel man version of the argument, rather than a quick Twitter thread—there’s great writing out there on the tension between material progress / modernity / capitalism and spiritual values / community decay / alienation, etc. Obviously, given this crowd, the point isn’t to accept or reject capitalism or material progress, but to at least engage with the best articulations of the tensions they hold with the latter three, so as to best navigate those tensions moving forward.
Besides the obvious Frankfurt School (who, understandably, are not everyone’s cup of tea), I find Hartmut Rosa’s treatment of this tension, in particular in his book Resonance: A Sociology of our Relationship to the World, excellent.
I won’t blast you with a synopsis here, and don’t expect you to read a 500+ page tome, but if the progress community ever finds enough interest to earnestly engage with this material abundance + spirituality/humanistic/community decay tension, I would be quite the eager reader.
There’s a very, very broad tradition in our society of arguing that material progress is less important than spiritual or other things, of course. Indeed, I assume that most people studying progress already hold some version of this opinion very strongly. I do. My take would be there’s little point in setting up any particular version of the thesis, because everyone can already make the argument themselves and sees Jason’s article through the lens of their own standard.
And I think Jason’s article is great in this respect!
I see that and many other criticisms as more of an indicment of the lack of progress in spirituality, which is supposed to give people purpose and comfort. The old institutions are slow at adapting to the changing world, and some of the new institutions are simply not good at comforting.
Are you excited about Charter Cities for more progress? I.e. not charter cities in developed countries as a kind of developmental anti global powerty intervention. I mean highly developed charter cities meant for rich well educated ppl to live there. Those CCs could implement all the cool progress movement ideas. E.g. they could be a heaven for biomedical companies wanting to do human challenge trials. They could test out land value tax schemes, or different voting mechanisms and other, more effective forms of government.
Rick Rubin noticing the same problem in this Conversations with Tyler, on older vs. newer music in the era of streaming.
When something comes out by an artist that you love, it doesn’t have the same gravitas that it once had because it’s on this conveyor belt of music that’s always going by. Even the thing you love, you listen to it, but then there’s something new right behind it, coming right behind it, always something new coming right behind it. I don’t know how the music of today can get to the point of the canon of the music of the past based on that short term, the fact that the music goes by so quickly. Even the things we love, the shelf life is very short now.
This was excellent! Can’t believe I hadn’t seen it before. The curve similarity is definitely interesting. Even when the root-to-leaf link isn’t permanent, eg the S curves adding up until obsolete, as I’d looked at in this article.
What will the world look like when we get our flying cars?
Related: Does the theory that low impact regulations can have a super-additive impact on productivity hold muster? When I was reading “Where’s My Flying Car?”, the book claimed regulations reduced GDP growth by a massive amount, and I read about the foregoing theory when I went digging in the literature.
Don’t know anything about Seaborg in particular. Floating nuclear is an interesting idea. I don’t know enough about the technical issues to know whether it’s practical; I’ve been told that the motion of the waves creates engineering problems. I also think the legal issues may be problematic. If you’re offshore, you might avoid the US NRC, but now you’re probably under the jurisdiction of the UN or something, which is probably worse. There’s really no way to escape regulation if you’re doing nuclear—you just have to find reasonable regulators.
“Theory” in general is out of style these days. Insights of modernisation theory might end up being tested, but as a “theory” I don’t think it will make a comeback. Somehow there is too much academic hyperspecialization for that to happen, and it increasingly seems like the approach of a bygone era. And to be clear, I still have some sympathies for that bygone era, even if most of its hypotheses were wrong.
In your book on Talent you mention “crystallising experiences” in the last chapter. Do you have any ideas how people might generate these “synthetically” for themselves, I.e. get themselves to experience certain possibilities as vivid and real without any external input?
To what extent is fieldwork underrated by economists? I feel it is quite so because it captures things that numbers often lose (eg nuance) and context that is hard to get without it. IMO i
t shouldn’t be the best form of evidence, but definitely a starting point in it
The researcher also learns a great deal doing fieldwork that is not learned sitting at the PC, or whatever. That makes field work all the more underrated.
How do the returns to high verbal intelligence change if AI gains the writing abilities of the median NYT opinion writer? How should people whose comparative advantage is in writing prepare for this?
Possible answer: The returns to high verbal intelligence will not necessarily fall if AI gains the writing abilities of the median NYT opinion writer, but they will become more heterogeneous and dependent on the context and purpose of writing. AI may be able to generate coherent, grammatical, and persuasive prose on a variety of topics, but it may not be able to capture the nuances, subtleties, and originality of human expression, nor the emotional, ethical, and aesthetic dimensions of writing. Moreover, AI may not be able to adapt to changing audience preferences, cultural norms, and rhetorical situations, nor to respond to feedback, criticism, and dialogue. Therefore, human writers who can leverage their high verbal intelligence to produce more creative, engaging, and distinctive writing will still have a significant advantage over AI, especially in domains that require more personal, emotional, or artistic communication, such as fiction, poetry, memoir, humor, or criticism. However, human writers who rely on conventional, formulaic, or generic writing may face more competition and lower returns from AI, especially in domains that require more factual, analytical, or informative communication, such as news, reports, essays, or reviews. People whose comparative advantage is in writing should prepare for this scenario by developing and honing their unique voice.
“For a number of reasons, there is no broad-based intellectual movement focused on understanding the dynamics of progress, or targeting the deeper goal of speeding it up.”
Can you please explain why the goal should be to speed up the knowledge explosion?
We already have thousands of massive hydrogen bombs aimed down our own throats, an ever present existential threat that we typically consider too boring to bother discussing, perhaps because we haven’t the slightest clue how to rid ourselves of these weapons. And so, we’re ignoring that threat, while we race to develop AI and genetic engineering as fast as possible, new potential existential scale technologies which we also have no idea how to make safe.
Is this evidence of a species that is mature enough to benefit from ever more, ever greater powers, delivered at an ever greater pace, without limit?
Well, nobody claimed that poor countries are safe and secure. The claim is that high technology countries are not safe and secure, and that speeding up the knowledge explosion will make them ever less safe and secure.
Trying to understand the dynamics of progress is great. If we are assuming without questioning that speeding up the knowledge explosion should obviously be our goal, then we have not yet understood the dynamics of progress.
What we are witnessing is an engineering failure of historic proportions. That is, we are failing to take in to account all relevant factors in our design of this technological society. We love the story that we are brilliant, so we cling to that, willfully ignoring that we are instead a very immature culture bordering on insane. What other word should we use to describe anyone who has a loaded gun in their mouth and is bored by the gun???
The population of Florida is now 7 times larger than it was when I was born in the early 50s. A thousand people move here every day. Florida is still a place of incredible beauty...
...but in 50 years it will likely look a lot like New Jersey. I’m happy to report that I will be dead then, and won’t have to witness the destruction of one of the most wonderful places on Earth.
Walter Grinder was my very first mentor, I met him when I was 13 or 14 years old. He showed me what a life of reading could look like. But I’ve had many other mentors along the way, Thomas Schelling being one of the most famous of those, Derek Parfit too. Fischer Black.
I don’t have a good answer to the pregnancies question...
Do you think is there more low hanging fruit in implementing policies that improve the plus side of Wealth Plus, or the wealth side?
What are some of your top suggestions on how society can enhance the Plus side of the equation in the current political and social climate?
At the margin, do you think developed countries like Canada would increase Wealth Plus by decreasing average annual labour hours (ie increasing statutory minimum vacation/reducing work week) ?
One reason I hear for pessimism is not merely Clive Thompson’s point that dystopian scenarios are easy to imagine, but that we’ve already created dystopias. It’s NOT merely imagination. We’ve already dropped atomic weapons, created murderous totalitarian governments, and starved millions of people to death through blithe mismanagement. As proof of concept such things have already happened, they could be scaled, and if they happen again, they will be bigger and badder. It’s hard for most people to imagine unknown future good things that outweigh “knowable” future horrors.
P.S. can I get a deep dive on whether the 20th century is rightly called “the bloodiest century”? It seems obviously so. But I would like to see the data sliced several different ways.
What’s the lowest-hanging fruit you see in Progress Studies? What are the research topics or programs that are sitting there, waiting on the right people? If it’s important to the answer, who are the right people?
By “progress,” we mean the combination of economic, technological, scientific, cultural, and organizational advancement that has transformed our lives and raised standards of living over the past couple of centuries.
Since writing We Need A New Science of Progress, a number of intellectuals have started to work on Progress Studies writ large. Which areas of progress do you think the movement underrates, or are in the need of more attention?
I’m claiming that science is getting harder, in the sense that it is increasingly challenging to make discoveries that have comparable impact to the ones in the past.
How does this square with the 2012-2022 machine learning push? The groundbreaking papers are not particularly impressive from a technical standpoint; in fact it’s a well-known meme that machine learning research is quite simple compared to other mathy academic areas. And the impact potential is far beyond any plausible predictions from 10 years ago.
Maybe this is true for most non-ML sciences? But advances in machine learning are already obsoleting decades of work in some other fields of science, and there are reasons to believe this trend will continue.
Only last year science has done severalimpossiblethings. I agree with the analyses on academic metrics, but claims about science being slow should have some slightly stronger supporting evidence.
EDIT: Oops, didn’t see the that the original date is in June 2022, when some of the supporting arguments for my case were not yet available. But the comments still stand; I do not think the assertion in the title is true in the most straightforward interpretation.
Are current US rates of growth and disruption enough to keep protectionist interest groups from outpacing innovation (#MancurOlson)?
Comparing your 2003 work and present work, it seems, at least to me, that your sense of how culture works has changed, namely the extent to which culture and individuals are elastic. What’s your current view here?
Our market is large enough, and there are enough foreign sources of competition and innovation, that yes I think this will work out OK. It is just that we could do so, so much better.
The degree of federalism in the United States helps as well. I see more decisions and functions of government devolving to the states and even cities. That introduces more political competition into the American system.
Could you give a prediction of the form “in 2040, there will exist people which are more efficient at skill X than the best AI models” in which you are more confident than not? What about 2030 or 2050?
(Don’t take this in bad faith, I have no intention of going back and mocking anyone’s predictions; but there is very useful signal in correct answers and I’m curious why more people don’t offer takes on this.)
I don’t see the import of AI models as stand-alone skills, rather being integrated into workflows. So I am not sure the predictions would mean that much. There are plenty of skills (memory!) where “computers,” broadly construed, are already much better than humans.
What should we do to ensure capital allocators (VC, etc) begin to care more about stagnation? I believe we have enough evidence at this point that when interest rates are low and there are fast growing companies with 80% gross margins (a relatively ahistoric phenomenon) - many capital allocators will optimize for book value mark ups and liquidity as opposed to backing enduring productivity growth bets. Perhaps Marc Andreessen’s “It’s time to build” blog post led to an early zeitgeist shift here—what should we do next?
I think it suffices if they simply care about their profit. Ideally, VCs would speak up more for progress, but a lot of them are already pretty good on these issues. They are far from the problem. It is all the other interest groups that I worry about.
One of the consequences of the pandemic is a dispersion of talent and capital away from of the traditional regional economic engines. Steve Case documented that change in his Rise of the Rest book and you spoke on Joe Londsdale’s American Optimist podcast on how Austin maybe one of big beneficiaries of this change.
To see if this is leading to a change in regional innovation we have to be able to measure it, but as I see it the traditional measures have some large flaws.
The primary challenge is that innovation is created locally and disturbed globally. We may create an amazing invention here and its effects are felt all over the world. Most regional metrics are either inputs thought to correlate with innovation (patent volume, research papers produced, VC funding, unicorns birthed, size of specific talent pools, and so on) or broad scale economic outputs (GDP, employment growth, etc.)
Better metrics like total factor productivity are not really measured or measurable at the regional level as far as I know again due to this regional creation/global distribution tension.
How do you think we should approach this measurement challenge?
Many of the movements you are involved in and praise (e.g econ and EA) use online writing/blogging to communicate and generate new ideas.
Will this continue in recognizable form despite AIs surpassing human skill at writing?
Are the young people who are investing in this skill learning how to use the hand powered loom in 1800?
The skill of the operator will remain paramount, see my book Average is Over.
I don’t view LLMs as substitutes for human beings, not for most tasks. Think of them instead as servants you can embed in your work flows. Writers and public intellectuals who are good at that will do very very well.
Of course those skilled at that task are probably a very different set of people than those who have been succeeding to date.
Every economist should write a biography or two! Biographies cast a pretty severe light on what you can and cannot explain. Most things you cannot explain and choice is so often idiosyncratic.
The Great Man Theory seems underrated to me. Take away Napoleon, Lenin, or Hitler, and a lot seems veyr different. So maybe we should call it “The Evil Man” theory...
The good individuals matter less, at least as individuals!?
I think there are “good” people, or at least influential non-evil people, who fit the theory. Jesus is an obvious one. What about Martin Luther, Michaelangelo, Copernicus. Hero worship today is associated with tribalism but perhaps progress needs more heros and disciples?
Is cool weather an underrated factor in economic growth ? With the exception of city/states like singapore gdp per capita seems to be higher in cooler areas. If this factor has any credence will it affect your optimism about India ?
There are papers on this which I haven’t read, I would consult those most of all. India will spend a lot on A/C. Texas is doing pretty well, as is Phoenix, so I am not worried so much about heat per se.
In academia, you’ve said that “The incentive is to build a brick … not to build a building.” If the balance is off here, how could we reform academic incentives to get more buildings?
Can’t really do it! You have to hope for some crazy people with tenure bucking the system. There are always a few of those, but they will not dominate. But add to their ranks crazy untenured people who write on the internet, and then you have something real in terms of influence.
Are you more of a bird or a frog? (In Freeman Dyson terminology: “Birds fly high in the air and survey broad vistas … out to the far horizon. They delight in concepts that unify our thinking and bring together diverse problems from different parts of the landscape. Frogs live in the mud below and see only the flowers that grow nearby. They delight in the details of particular objects, and they solve problems one at a time.”)
Some ~12 years after the book, what are your thoughts on the Great Stagnation? (Asking more about the phenomenon of stagnation and less for thoughts on the book itself.) How has this played out? Have your predictions held up? What will stagnation look like going forward?
Preface: If we assume that a global zeitgeist of degrowth, anti-solutionism, pessimism, national tribalism, de-enlightenment, and de-globalization — creates a non-trivial risk to future human progress, then
Q: What might reasonably be done by the progress studies community to move the zeitgeist? Or is it too little, by too few, coming too late? It’s sometimes difficult not to see the entirety of the progress movement as a drop in the ocean of doom-centric media.
Progress has its own fans, namely those who drive it and benefit from it. So I think the Zeitgeist is not entirely against us. It is a better situation than it looks from the so-called “world of ideas” alone.
Is the internet and social media driving global emotion and feelings? If so, what are the main outcomes and how should we be thinking about it?
You have previously argued that envy is local (in either Average is Over or Great Stagnation), and in a recent talk (Why do liberal democracies feel stuck) you argued that the internet is a global engine for ideas more so than before. My feeling is that in the last ~7 years emotion and feelings are more becoming global due to the internet. An important point is that people celebrate wins far less than they bemoan mistakes. No one talks about how Brexit allowed the UK to get vaccines faster or have more autonomy over their energy (albeit not that impactful), however in other circumstances it could have been. That they can regulate technology less than the EU etc.
Just think of the the UK conservatives in the past 3 years.
PM Johnson: The country-wide anger at party-gate.
PM Truss: The reaction to her fiscal policies.
PM Sunak: Wasn’t going to COP27, then after outcry he did.
Irrespective of what the correct thing to do in any of those cases was, my point is that the turn arounds were driven by the percevied emotion/feelings of the population which was spread faster and more quickly than ever before. This is what I mean by global.
I think you have also mentioned that you think the US involvement in Vietnam wouldn’t have happened today with Twitter (stand to be corrected).
A relevant follow-up for this platform is how does that affect progress and how should people who are proponents of growth better present themselves and their cause to the population? A practical version of this question is: How would you run a campaign to convince the greater population to think more long term and about the importance of progress?
Certain positive-expected-value projects can be driven by capable individuals or small groups (think FastGrants, ARC, OpenAI), however there are other fundamental projects which cannot be driven by individuals/groups alone (building more housing in hubs for example).
Speaking very broadly, a lot of high-value projects require lots of autonomy for the leaders to get them done, and they have to have public support for that.
New Jersey has more talent and human capital than before, but the Northeast is much less culturally central. I would still be long New Jersey, though, for the future.
The best for Visegrad 4, for human creativity, was late 19th century/early 20th century, up through the 1930s. That will never be reattained. As for living standards—now is the peak and it will get much better yet.
I don’t love Jane Eyre, so I have to go with Wuthering Heights.
On most important, the usual answer would be Jane Austen, but how about Mary Shelley instead? More prophetic. Virginia Woolf too, I prefer both over Austen.
Maybe important to play sports for 2⁄3 of kids? But heterogeneity reigns!
Development has a lot to do with culture, and “culture” as a problem never will be solved. And new technologies change which features of a country are most important for development. Will “manufacture plus export” ever be so important again as it was for Japan and Korea? Doubtful, at least not anytime soon. Poland has been going a very different route. Expect something quite different again from the parts of Africa which succeed.
Do the GPTs constitute >10% of the AI capabilities progress (set zero at just before AlexNet) necessary for automating most of the science R&D process?
Actual R&D involves so much interface with the real world, I fear that AIs will have a tough time there. So much of R&D is like “gardening.” AI will be a significant aide to us, but the humans will remain paramount in those endeavors. Important aides, but complements to us, not some means of replacing us. Thus it is hard to give a percentage.
Dear Tyler, I have 2 related questions about developing countries.
Russia and China are considered to be the least religious countries—for example only 4 % Russians regularly go to the church. Do you think there is a connection between the lack of religion and the authoritarian form of government Russia and China seem to revert to every time they have a chance?
And another question – it seems that as soon as some developing countries arrive at some higher income levels, instead of keep improving the lives of their citizens, they try to go for some historical grandeur theme. Russia, Turkey, China, Ethiopia. Will we see the same happening in India – will they try to restore a Mauryan empire?
Is the ability to automate most of the scientific R&D process a necessary component of transformative AI that meaningfully accelerates economic growth? If not, what do these intermediate abilities look like?
The short- and also medium-run impact of AI will be to dramatically improve workflows for the five (?) percent or so of those who will know how to work with it.
A long time before aggregate productivity measures as much higher! Like both computers and the internet.
The more important thing is that we now see that the key breakthroughs are possible.
I think they are complements. The internet always can take credit for the AI models, if need be. I think they are both transformative in any case, though the AI models will take a long time to boost gdp in a measurable fashion. In the short run, AI models will make the most productive people, if they are willing to experiment with AI, much more productive.
In fact I think computers are the main reason why the game is so much more popular. It gives almost everyone access to what is going on in the board—that was previously unavailable. and you know exactly how your favorite player is doing. Imagine if we had to watch NBA games without knowing the score! That was pre-computer chess for most observers.
You are well-known for your love of food, cuisine and dining, both as a diner and as a cook. Has your deep relationship with food informed or substantiated how you think about progress and progress studies?
STudying food markets shows that progress is possible!
It shows the importance of immigration.
The diversity of quarters from which innovation comes.
Not all sectors are like food markets, but it is one very good place to start. And food markets give you a very good chance to chat with very smart people who are not college-educated.
“While it is easy to be pessimistic if you compare today to utopia, a much better perspective is to look at yesterday and see how far we’ve come in our journey to lift everyone from poverty.”
It’s easy to be pessimistic if we do the rational thing, and look at where we’re going next.
There is exactly no chance that we can keep nuclear weapons around forever and never use them. We don’t have the slightest idea of how to get rid of these weapons. And so we’ve decided to stop thinking about it.
Consider the man who has a loaded gun in his mouth, and is so bored by the gun that he’s rarely interested in discussing it. Would you consider this man rational? Would you hand him another gun, or give him more power of any kind? Or would you dial 911 for an emergency intervention?
This is the species which Thiel and other 19th century thinkers want to give ever more power at an ever accelerating rate. They’re insane. Just like the rest of us.
I dunno. To me, Thiel sounds like just another “expert” stuck in the 19th century. That mindset made perfect sense in the long era of knowledge scarcity. But we no longer live in that old era, but in a new era characterized by knowledge exploding in every direction. People like Thiel don’t seem to grasp that we can’t just take a philosophy from one era and slap it down on a very different era, and expect everything to continue working.
Superabundance can be erased in literally 30 minutes. A well established fact that we know intellectually, but seem completely incapable of facing emotionally. And so we just ignore it, and cling blindly to the hero stories of the 19th century.
You write, “Again, maybe it’s the pathological contrarian in me, but I have to call bullshit on all of this—moral progress does exist, man’s nature has changed and can change again”
It depends on what time frame we’re discussing. Certainly the human body and mind can continue to evolve as it always has. But neither have changed meaningfully for thousands of years, and are unlikely to do so for a long time to come.
Man’s nature is that we are made of thought psychologically. The content of thought changes all the time, but the nature of thought does not. The content of thought reflects the nature of thought, and so we see the same kinds of themes recur over and over. So long as the nature of thought, how it operates, remains static the human condition is unlikely to change in a fundamental manner.
Does moral progress exist? To know that we’d have to remove the scientific and resulting economic progress, and see how people act without such benefits. My guess is that the starving people of tomorrow will act pretty much like the starving people of the past.
Stimulating comment! Building upon it, perhaps it could add value if we separate human nature which we are born with and likely hasn’t changed much over the last few millennia, from human nature embedded within culture and institutions and various mindsets and frameworks.
In other words, what do we mean by “human morality”? If we restrict it to our innate human nature, then it probably hasn’t made any progress. But if we look at our abilities to form larger and more constructive and cooperative networks, then the increase in moral progress has been immense over the last century or two.
Hi Roger, I agree with comments. Yes, there has been important progress within the content of thought. But because that kind of morality is just ideas, it’s not permanent or durable. It can change quickly based on particular local circumstances. It is of course nonetheless an important project to keep working on.
Here’s an example which may add to what we’re exploring.
To my knowledge, every ideology ever invented has inevitably subdivided in to competing internal factions. The universality of this experience suggests the source of the division is something that all ideologies have in common. This can not be their content, for the content of ideologies varies widely. What all ideologies have in common is what they’re all made of, thought.
And so we see many very different ideologies all follow a similar path of internal division, due to the nature of the medium in which all the ideologies exist.
Yes, cultural mindsets and institutions are impermanent and dynamic. But that implies they can improve as well as deteriorate. Twelve thousand years ago most people were part of a band with a moral circle or network of three or four dozen people. Today we see networks of cooperation that involve billions in some cases. Part of this is from the creation of rules, institutions, norms, and behavioral mindsets which allow us to increasingly solve the problems of cooperation. We have become more moral or at least our morality has become more effective and broader in scope.
Yes, culture can improve, and has. Is our morality more effective? That’s a tricky one.
Consider that we have thousands of massive hydrogen bombs aimed down our own throats, and we generally find this ever present existential threat too boring to bother discussing. It seems we have a ways to go yet in achieving effective morality.
I think we’re basically agreeing that culture can both improve and deteriorate. The history of modern Germany perhaps offers one example of that. High culture, to primitive barbarism, and then back to high culture.
rogersbacon wrote, ”...there is something grand, something beautiful and glorious, dare I say holy, in the act of passing knowledge on to the next generation”.
The problem for progress seems to be...
KNOWLEDGE: It’s easy to pass on knowledge and build upon it generation after generation.
WISDOM: It’s much harder to pass on wisdom. We try, and succeed to some limited degree, but given that wisdom is largely a function of life experience, it almost has to be rebuilt from the ground up in each individual.
Example: while one can learn physics from a book (easy transfer) one can not learn love from a book (hard transfer).
Thus, we see knowledge developing at one speed, and wisdom developing at a much slower speed. Over time the gap between knowledge and wisdom widens.
This phenomena might be compared to giving kids driver’s licenses. At first we’re giving driver’s licenses to 17 year olds. Then 16 year olds. Then 15. Then 14 etc. The cars keep getting bigger, while the drivers keep getting smaller. As this progression unfolds, sooner or later we arrive at crash.
“With more powerful technologies such as nuclear weapons, synthetic biology and future strong artificial intelligence, however, learning from mistakes is not a desirable strategy: we want to develop our wisdom in advance so that we can get things right the first time, because that might be the only time we’ll have.”
It reassures me to find others writing on this subject, and making this point specifically. The issue of scale changes the progress equation in fundamental ways, erasing the room for error we’ve always counted on in the past.
We are required to defeat ALL existential threats, every one, because a single failure a single time with a single threat may be sufficient to bring the entire system crashing down, making other successes irrelevant. When we see existential threats in this holistic manner, it becomes clear that dealing with particular threats one by one by one is a loser’s game, and our focus should instead be on the process generating all the technological threats, the knowledge explosion. I would define that shift of focus to be an act of wisdom.
As example, if you get puddles all around your house every time it rains, the solution is not to focus on managing the pots you use to catch this and that drip. The wise solution is to go to the source of the problem, and get up on the roof and fix the leaks.
I suppose I would start with philosophy, with questions like....
Progress towards what?
Consider the Amish. Generally speaking, the Amish have to one degree or another opted out of technological progress. And so..
They don’t have nuclear weapons. They aren’t contributing to climate change. They don’t experience all the negative aspects of modern society that we calmly accept as being completely normal.
I’m sure this is an overly simplified view of the Amish, but I think you get the point. The experience of the Amish demonstrates that technological advances, and progress, are not automatically the same thing. In spite of their technological backwardness, the Amish have achieved a form a progress that in some respects is quite superior to our own.
Philosophy is, in part, a study of the assumptions underlying our behavior. If some core assumption is unexamined, and to some degree false, then whatever we build on top of that assumption is likely to be in some way problematic. The most efficient method of proceeding may be to examine our fundamental assumptions very carefully first, before investing vast resources in to some unexamined definition of progress.
Here’s an example. One of our most fundamental assumptions is that life is better than death. Pretty much everyone takes this to be an obvious given. And yet, there is no proof at all that this assumption is true. And so, when we spend trillions on our medical system with the goal of saving lives, we actually don’t have the slightest clue whether we’re doing the patients a favor or not.
If science is slowing down, that sounds like exactly what should be happening, so I hear this as good news.
QUESTION: Do we believe that human beings can successfully manage ever more, ever greater powers, delivered at an ever accelerating rate, without limit?
If we answer no, then we can be happy that the “ever accelerating rate” factor may be subsiding.
What seems to be missing from so much discussion of science is the understanding that human beings are a limiting factor on what can be successfully accomplished in the way of progress. It’s not science which is the limitation, but human maturity. Here’s an example to illustrate:
We currently have thousands of massive hydrogen bombs aimed down our own throats, an ever present existential threat which we typically find too boring to discuss, even in presidential campaigns when we are selecting a single individual to have sole authority over the use of these weapons.
This is the species which science is giving ever more powers.
This is great. I’m all for it.
To reveal my enthusiasm I am going to throw out some timelines, ideas, and numbers here to keep your creative juices flowing. Feel free to disagree and quibble.
Creating a core team of 3-6 people. Putting in place a methodology and data collection plan. 500 hours.
Visiting all 10 locations with team plus tech crew and equipment. 1 week of work at each location. Cost: $80,000 − 120,000
Editing and post-production: 500 hours.
additional costs: various salaries contracts. Total: $100,000???
Do it twice.
I think I’d definitely want enough data for a basic VR “take a walk in this area” product (for if such things ever become ‘a thing’). I’d also scan the area, assuming permission like an archaeological site to make 3-d reconstructions of it simple. Collecting information on professions and income would also be helpful in the ten year comparison.
Hello, I’m Page Baldwin, historian and software designer, in that order. I studied history in undergraduate and graduate levels, but am now paid to design software for the contruction and manufacturing industries. I’m an amateur at most things, interested in all things, and look forward to learning from all of you.
Hi all, I’m Nathaniel. I’m a data scientist and health policy researcher in DC.
As I’ve published more in the academic literature, applied for research funding, and subjected myself to pre-publication peer review, I’ve seen just how suboptimal these mechanisms for doing science are. Reading about the surprisingly shallow history of scientific publication has helped me to feel like I have some agency in changing how it’s done. My main interests within progress studies are thus around meta-science and exploring new ways of prioritizing and rewarding research.
I hadn’t heard of the “Ratchet, Hatchet, Pivot” before. I really like it for intra-ecosystem communication.
I also love these questions: “What has gone right and why, what is going wrong and why, and what can be done to overcome the problems facing humanity?”
You can swap humanity for “my life,” “my family,” “my community,” “my country,” etc for a universally useful exercise.
On a separate note, your piece resonated because something I’m trying to interrogate for myself is also what you seem to be thinking about: what is the role of media in advancing progress?
I have a sneaking suspicion that part of the reason why most optimistic media usually(?) doesn’t do well is because it’s not tied to a particular theory of change.
I imagine most people wondering: “Cool, I’m glad to know that this cool invention is being built. But what exactly does this have to do with me?”
I suspect that media that feels like media that supports the growth a movement with clear and exciting goals could get traction.
I’ve seen some progress-adjacent YouTube channels do really well roughly targeting a niche of people who want to electrify their house, so they like to be up to date on new energy / storage inventions.
And I predict that I would love to follow media covering the journey of a group trying to get some progress-related legislation passed.
Movement media.
I’m not sure there’s room for general purpose optimistic, progress-oriented media beyond the current players right now. But I could be wrong!
Very interesting topic. How widespread is the “pull” idea? When I first read about it in an essay from you a while ago, I thought it was kind of a niche view, but I’ve been reading Robert Allen’s The British Industrial Revolution in Global Perspective and he seems to have the same view, so maybe not so niche?
Wow I should really login more often. 9 months late, but here goes. Yes, it is definitely a position that already existed, as per Allen. But the push thesis is by far the most popularly known one, and one that I think a lot of historians are still very sympathetic to, having been brought up on the Marxist historians (who were often very good, but had some blindspots)
Interesting thread, but I draw a somewhat different conclusion: in the long run, we need a heat-management system for the Earth (and eventually, other planets). Managing CO2 is good but insufficient.
I agree here that PS is more convincing, and that EA is more actionable. But EA is effective at creating institutions around action (giving time and money) such as 80000 hours/Givewell. I think EA also makes a stronger claim on individuals’ duties compared to PS because PS is focused on long term economic growth—a fluid goal we do not yet know how to achieve.
On the strength of EA.
“Let’s go back to the EA principle: “Using evidence and careful reasoning to do the most good possible”. Part of the attraction of the principle is that it takes away choice. One great achievement of modernity is to give people more and more choice, until they get to choose (seemingly) everything. But vast choice is also bewildering and challenging. Much of the power of EA (and of many ideologies) is to take away much of that choice, saying: no, you have a duty to do the most good you can in the world. Furthermore, EA provides institutions and a community which helps guide how you do that good. It thus provides orientation and meaning and a narrative for why you’re doing what you’re doing.” (Nielsen)
On the fluid, uncertain nature of achieving economic growth:
“Once we move beyond absolute human rights and work toward sustainable economic growth, most of the remaining morality will be practical in nature, prone to exception, dependent on context, and not exercising much of a tyranny over our lives. It won’t necessarily have much to do with rules at all, unless some other perspective, outside of the scope of the arguments at hand, establishes that rules are indeed the proper way to go. (Cowen, Stubborn Attachments)
I’m a relative newcomer to progress studies. My first impression is that Progress Studies is a research agenda aimed at academic researchers without much room for actions by non-wealthy (money), non-academic (time in the form of research). Perhaps knowledge production is an elite activity (with support by PS popularizers (time)).
On knowledge production as an elite activity:
“But the Enlightenment was not a mass-movement. It was an elite phenomenon, largely confined to intellectuals, scholars, a literate and educated minority…New scientific insights, and invention of new techniques, their successful application to production—all were the result of the actions of a fairly small proportion of the population.” (Mokyr, Culture of Growth)
I think the non-rival, zero marginal cost nature of ideas indicates that PS could do a lot of good without needing the social participation of a great many people outside of academia. It would be unfortunate if this is the extent of the ecosystem though. I’m still looking for ways to donate my time to PS so if anybody has any good ideas, I would love to hear it.
A lot of (most?) progress studies work is being done outside academia, or on the border of academia, not in proper journals and peer-reviewed publications. My own work is for a general audience. Anton Howes left academia to write for a general audience. Eli Dourado is at a think tank that is affiliated with a university, but he writes for a general audience. Brian Potter came from industry and writes for a general audience. Etc.
It’s a great newsletter—always a quick, optimistic, and informative read! I’m a lawyer and have really enjoyed the posts on geothermal and nuclear energy (and all of the pending policy and regulatory issues).
Interesting thought about the market here. It seems though that the Atlantic and Vox have a pretty good bead on that. Between Derek Thompson etc. and Kelsey Piper etc. I think one thing we can do is augment their efforts and contribute to those already established and successful platforms, as well as Works in Progress.
I am not aware of the financial situation of any of these outlets, but I don’t see a market hole for another one. This might be good advice though for other current operations like Warp News.
Two of the other major requirements for the Modern Breakthrough (McCloskey’s term I believe) which I have seen in most profiles of the phenomenon (I have read dozens) have been:
The open nature of three plus new continents with very few people (after disease wiped them out). This not only provided 20X the room to grow in amazingly fertile areas, it also provided an influx of better staple crops (potatoes and corn), timber, and the dynamic ability to establish hundreds of new statelets. This was both a favorable condition leading up to the IR, it also helped it reduce Malthusian constraints. This was a one time only opportunity.
Constructive competition between states. With the advents of gunpowder and cannons, Europe entered into an arms race not just toward military strength, but toward superior organizational problem solving ability. The leaders (first the Dutch, then the Brits, then Americans) were those states that were able to foster creativity and cooperation with less sclerosis and rent seeking. This led to the ascendency of representational government, freed markets with finance and corporations, and so on. IOW, it was an arms race toward organizational effectiveness. Liberal democracies won, barely.
These two forces actually self reinforced each other as did the transition to fossil fuels, machines, science and markets.
If I was to try to oversimplify the Modern Breakthrough to one phrase, it was a phase transition to a higher level of network integration and coordinated problem solving. Consider this explanation a work in progress, so to speak.
“But if progress is a primarily matter of agency, then whether it continues is up to us.”
It isn’t so easy. The problem is it is not up to individual agency, but the cumulative dynamic equilibrium of 8 billion people along with a healthy dose of luck and contingency. I strongly agree that we saw unprecedented amounts of progress over the past two centuries, but there is no guarantee it will continue.
That said, there are things we can do to increase the likelihood of progress. These include better understanding how progress works, and by spreading out our bets so that all our eggs aren’t in one or two baskets.
Can easily apply your framework to why alternative meats that have been “invented” will still take years to change the world, because of cost, social acceptance, regulations, scaling issues, quality (taste), accessibility at restaurants, etc.
Also, this is too true...
“the U.S. seems to have accidentally assembled a kind of bipartisan coalition against some of the most important drivers of human progress.”
I’m Karthik, a second year PhD in economics at Berkeley. My current work is at the intersection of development, climate change and international trade. I would like to work on growth/innovation, but I haven’t had any particular insights there yet :)
I wouldn’t say I’m totally sold on progress as my #1 priority; I have attachments that make me focus more on catch-up than expanding the frontier. But I’m certainly convinced that it’s important.
In keeping with that, my recommendation is Technology and Underdevelopment, by Frances Stewart. Even if you aren’t interested in development, it has a very lucid discussion of what technology is and what improving a production process really means. It challenged a lot of assumptions for me.
The paper is hard to get online, so I’ll quote myself:
Suppose we think of “the entrepreneur as the valiant, but overoptimistic investor rather than the heroic seer,” he wrote. In this story, entrepreneurs miscalculate their odds of success. They start more businesses than they should, but those mistakes lead to social benefits....
If the few big wins cancel out the many losses, starting a business would be a risky, but rational, bet—the sort of investment a “cautious businessman” might make. But Professor Nye argued that the wins and the losses probably don’t cancel out. Even the biggest winners don’t make enough money personally to cover the losses of all the individuals who went into businesses that failed.
The big winners are usually people who, based on rational calculations, shouldn’t have bet their time, money and ideas. They overestimated their chances of striking it rich. But they were lucky and beat the odds.
Even more important, the lucky fools create huge spillover benefits for society: new sources of wealth, new jobs, new industries offering less-risky opportunities, new technologies that improve life. Entrepreneurship does generate net gains, but most of those gains don’t go to the risk-takers. The gains are spread out to the rest of us. Capitalism, in this view, works by exploiting the capitalists themselves.
“We depend upon people continuing to open up new businesses for the success of industry and of the economy and for our health and well-being,” Professor Nye said in an interview. “But on the whole it probably doesn’t make sense for the average person to open up a business. Hence, the lucky-fools phenomenon.”
Sebastian I am. An entrepreneur, pedagogue, and two-time poetaster. I started a hybrid school which meets in person three days per week. My original training was in liberal arts, specifically classical languages and philosophy, which give me a rich repository of historical examples and uses of the subjunctive should the need arise. I moved into education after college, going to Finland to study and compare educational systems. I discovered game theory and economics and the history of math and science in 2016. I became Cowen-pilled in 2018.
I have written on education, pedagogy, curriculum, AI, and deliberate practice. I have a keen interest in talent and fostering individual development, I am also passionate about the intersection of “our way of thinking” and aesthetics.
I edit a lot of people’s work in my free time. Right now I am giving feedback and editing a colleague’s history textbook likely to be published in 2025.
My current big project is to get a website off the ground which offers a progress studies philosophy of education. I will share the beta version by February.
I have long been involved in the rationalist community under the name JohnBuridan—some of my essays are there.
Isn’t this already captured by the heuristic of executing ideas based on their expected value? If the potential impact of an idea is large enough, a sober accounting of all the barriers won’t actually stop EV-minded founders from working on them. “Workability” in general isn’t a clean concept; what matters is that an idea’s probability of success is enough to be worthwhile given its impact if it succeeds.
I appreciate this. Let me provide a thought on how to respond to a certain type of critique: the small market of young people who can get engaged in this. I think some people, especially young people, who are not naturally tech people have an aversion to thinking they can or should do anything tech related. Part of the issue is that what motivates them is not the underlying tech but aesthetically great consumer products. Art, music, shows, video games, sports, outdoors, religion, and most importantly friends and people. So how do we motivate these natural affections into innovation, which is far less a natural activity?
One way is provide not merely a vision of tech like this, which appeals to fixing problems, optimism, true patriotism, and analytic thinking, but also to have some vision of a personally meaningful life. Now that’s hard, since everyone has their own ideo of what a good life consists in. But in each context and subculture the “progress studies foundational tech” view will have to adapt a message to fit the terminal goals of the audience.
I’m working on such a framing for education that provides a broader view of how tech fits into a good life. (Website should be up next month). The tradeoff is that I commit to more value assumptions that others might not share. But to bring others into a view, you need to put some meat on the bones. The structure of the idea must be embodied in a culture… And culture is always somewhat particular.
What I like about your post is how particular you get. That packs a powerful punch.
Thanks for the post. Definitely a nice compact mind-expander. The dimensions you mention are familiar as major themes writers repeatedly underscore. I always remember Carlota Perez’s framing of history as a series of revolutions/waves each of which is about the rise of 2 or 3 technologies in https://www.amazon.com/Technological-Revolutions-Financial-Capital-Dynamics/dp/1843763311, e.g. railroads and steel.
Great post. I really like your section on what distinguishes unblocking from a blanket interest in deregulation! I’ve been searching for these paragraphs for years :-)
Another difference between the two approaches, I think, is that progress toward abundance gets made when a cost-benefit analysis finds an opportunity. There are a tiny number of deregulatory changes that have very strong cost-benefit analyses that we all talk about repeatedly (building more housing, more immigration, allowing geothermal to have the same carve-outs as oil and gas drilling, etc). In contrast, the blanket deregulator that you might find at the CATO institute or some such place often argues that deregulation is by default good.
“They are full of optimists who understand that their optimism is self-fulfilling only if tied to thoughtful collective action. A different kind of activism that prioritizes building over talking. An activism that can inspire and unite across differences.”
Yes! Thank you for sharing so passionately this vision of a humane, dynamic, flourishing America. I am joining my voice with yours!
Strong piece. I love the art. It really enhances the message. It’s interesting that you make it America-centric. This kind of stuff tends to be very global. I think it makes sense as a way to make the project a little more tightly scoped.
I like that you present both a worst-case future and a best-case future. It’s more engaging than a simplistic techno-optimistic vision. It creates a narrative of a grand challenge that needs all the help it can get.
Overall, I like how it’s a very grand vision, but it is grounded in an array of concrete actions and specific areas to focus on.
I really appreciate the kind words, Coleman. Means a lot.
Glad you got a lot out of the art. Very intentionally created + placed.
And yes, the problem with “techno-optimism” is that it loses people immediately by communicating a sense of naivety about how challenging building a better future really is.
Finally, yes, the America-centricity is mainly about tightening the scope. Here are some other reasons I share in the comments of the original posting.
Thanks again for reading this Manifesto.
You might have been wondering “Why the emphasis on the U.S.?”:
First, I believe that people from any country should focus on issues that they have disproportionate ability to affect. On that note, just about everyone has more influence over matters to which they are in closest physical proximity to—whether they are matters affecting your family, your town, y- our city, your state/province, or country. As an American, I have more influence over what happens in the U.S. than in, say, Canada, Brazil, or Singapore. And I believe citizens of a country should be most invested in making improvements to the place they live.
Second, the issues affecting the U.S. are not identical to those affecting other countries, even if there are many similarities across countries. Thought leadership on, say, how we improve America’s regulatory regime, educate American family offices, or create media that inspires American students may have some use to movement builders around the world—but the only way that this manifesto and its eventual outputs can help level up America is if they are designed to provide great service to Americans dealing with U.S.-specific challenges.
Third, there is no question that knowledge and technology produced by an American-centric movement can and should be shared with builders in other countries. And in a way that doesn’t replicate the sometimes predatory models of international philanthropy and economic development of the past many decades. And if we want to help the world, it’s important that we know we can help ourselves. Let’s get our own messy house in order before arrogantly assuming we can help others.
Fourth, the US still arguably has the most access to resources and power in the world right now, and changes in the U.S. here have extraordinary leverage in setting positive trends that cascade across the world.
Finally, most of this manifesto can be forked by movement builders in other countries who recognize the applicability of this approach to future-building in their local environment. I welcome this wholeheartedly.
I’m Alexander. I’m a software engineer who loves economics. I don’t have an official credential as my major was in computing, but I enjoy reading economics, and do it almost daily. It’s my favourite nonfiction genre. I’ve read and enjoyed Cowen, Stiglitz, Caplan, Hanson, Banerjee and Duflo, etc. I’ve taken one economics class under Borland, who’s done some work on economic progress, such as showing that learning-by-doing plays a role in the evolution of countries to greater specialisation in production (Yang and Borland 1991).
Some of my favourite economics books include Stubborn Attachments by Cowen, Creating a Learning Society by Stiglitz and Poor Economics by Banerjee and Duflo. I find myself more interested in cutting-edge growth than catch-up growth, and would like to understand how cutting-edge growth works, and how we can sustain it.
I’m interested in shaping my career to have marginally more impact on economic progress than I currently do. I plan to do that by working on building a new vertical rather than working in a competitive space with many slightly differentiated alternatives. More competitive markets, with many firms, are likely to be less innovative.
In many discussions about economic progress, concerns around safety and sustainability were raised.
I really liked how Tyler Cowen used the phrase “sustainable economic growth” in Stubborn Attachments to encompass concerns around safety and sustainability. My view is that progress which inevitably leads us off a cliff isn’t real progress because over some time interval it approaches zero.
I find that framing progress in terms of resource efficiency to be useful. A lot of people equate economic progress with an image of factories spewing smoke into the atmosphere. However, progress to me is about using our scarce resources more efficiently, and is thus inherently about sustainability.
Throughout the history of economic progress, we have become increasingly capable of creating more economic value using less scarce resources. E.g. today’s cars, stoves, computers, lightbulbs, generators, motors, etc. are more efficient than their predecessors. In my view, our goal here is to extend this trend into the future, e.g. by creating fusion reactors that produce one kilowatt hour for 5% the price it costs today, and by creating computer algorithms that increase the efficiency of our scarce labour force and so on.
Is it too parochial to equate economic progress with resource efficiency? Or does it make some sense?
Efficiency is a dimension of progress, but it is only one dimension. Sometimes we make progress by improving the power, speed, or throughput of our machines or processes. Not all improvements are efficiency improvements. But over time, higher efficiency is one of the big trends of industrial progress.
I agree that anything that leads us off a cliff, that is, leads us to some disaster for humanity, is not progress.
But the problem with the concept of “sustainability” is: what are you trying to sustain? Our goal should be sustained progress, sustained economic growth, sustained improvements in human well-being—not sustaining indefinitely the use of some particular technology, which is in fact stagnation, the opposite of progress.
We have sustainable progress not by using “sustainable” resources, but by switching to new, much more abundant resources when old ones are running out—as we switched from whale oil to petroleum, or from ivory to plastic, or from manure to synthetic fertilizer. More here: Unsustainable
Fine article overall, but starting from what srikes me as a strawperson argument does not appeal to me:
Too much discussion of the Industrial Revolution is myopic, focused narrowly on a few highlights such as steam and coal.
I’m a very casual reader in this area but this strikes me as at best very outdated. To not get laughed at in coversation, or to be read even for popular audiences, one for a long time has had to acknowledge that the causes and dates of the IR are uncertain and many, and posit something complex and overlooked, certainly not steam and coal. Even the English Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution more or less reflects this. I’m probably missing something though, so curious what that is or why you took this approach?
Economist Robert Allen, for instance, has one of the best-researched and most convincing arguments for cheap coal as a requirement for the development of steam power.
I’d enjoy a pointer to that argument. Glancing at https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/people/sites/allen-research-pages/ I’m not sure which paper it would be. Skimming his powerpoint on the British Industrial Revolution which I’d assume would be somewhat of an overview I see that cheap coal is mentioned—as a factor in increasing British wages—and the conclusion about the causes of the IR does not mention steam or coal (though British wages creating incentive to invent are) and are about as diverse and complex as I’d expect (and note the presentation is from 2006, presumably reflecting research from several years prior).
p.s. So that my first comment here does not read soley as a gripe, I’m a fan of progress [studies] and am glad this forum exists, I applaud your intellectual entrepreneurialism.
In the first book mentioned above, Allen states: “I do not ignore supply-side developments like the growth of scientific knowledge or the spread of scientific culture. However, I emphasize other factors increasing the supply of technology that have not received their due…” But when his argument gets condensed, the factors other than the ones he focuses on (high wages and cheap energy) tend to get dropped.
As to your first point, I didn’t say “all discussion”, just “too much”…
Hi Gary, what’s your relationship to the “Foundational Tech Ecosystem”? I have a startup project that seems like it would fit into this bucket (making land use codes/zoning easier to navigate for developers & RE professionals) and would be interested in connecting with others in this ecosystem. Thanks!
Hey Erik—I’m mostly just trying to manifest it into existence at this point. Would love to connect. You can DM me on Twitter https://twitter.com/garysheng
One possible story is wider-spread literacy, (cheap paper, cheap printing) followed by obsessive note-taking, letter writing, and proto-bureaucratic thinking. I’m reading the history of the Jesuits right now, and it is clear that the entire endeavor is printing press + cheap paper = new social movement. Could we think of “science” and “practical tinkering” as two of these new social movements which yielded a lot of return?
To speak more generally about what I think you’re pointing at, step function improvements in communication + coordination tech seems to be essential to breakthroughs in other kinds of tech.
A lot of people point at the existence of Four Industrial Revolutions so far:
First Industrial Revolution: Coal in 1765
Second Industrial Revolution: Gas in 1870
Third Industrial Revolution: Electronics and Nuclear in 1969
Fourth Industrial Revolution: Internet and Renewable Energy in 2000
I’m wondering if any of these would have taken off at a global scale without the invention of the...
Postal system in the 1700s
Electric telegraph + industrial printing presses
Radio, TV, and telephone
E-mail and all the different chat and collective intelligence tools that have emerged
To reference Anton Howe’s piece from earlier this year, innovation doesn’t seem to be human nature.
Perhaps the proliferation of tech that sufficiently spreads inspiring ideas—like “XYZ is possible!”—is what leads people to decide to innovate anyway, against their conservative nature.
Yes, any major improvement in a fundamental area—not only in communication, or more broadly in information technology, but also in energy, manufacturing, materials, or transportation—will have ripple effects throughout the entire economy.
I think that’s a little too reductionist.
CACE: CHANGE ANYTHING CHANGE EVERYTHING. It
is certainly true, but trivially true. The question is more like how much does a change in literacy result in a change in technology, rather than are the two related. Basically everything is related within the topics of science, innovation, and the intellectual life.
I take Gary’s point to be relative. Were communication advancements necessary, while obviously not sufficient, prerequisites for the energy revolutions which followed? Can we make a causal diagram which flows from advances in communication in the 17th century and 18th century to advances in technology?
Personally I’d be extremely surprised if it were the case even a diminished form, but it’s a very interesting hypothesis to try and disprove.
Great post. Seems like things in New York are turning in the right direction, and I’m impressed by your optimism. Hochul quoting Hseih and Moretti is pretty great!
Do you have any recommendations for low investment, high impact ways of reducing NIMBY power that many people might not be aware of? Either in New York, or generally in American cities. In my experience with YIMBY groups, it’s difficult to get more than a a few people to show up for an event. If those people don’t feel like they’re accomplishing much, they tend to get bored and do something else—reducing the chance they show up for the next one. Our housing issues in Philly (where I’m located) are not so bad yet that people need to get involved, so there’s much more apathy than in high-cost places like NYC or SF. But if there’s something impactful that we can do with a just few people then I want to help to organize it!
I don’t really have any recommendations for low investment / high impact, just high investment / high impact. I think the nature of the problem “get people to do what is required in local government to reduce NIMBY power” inherently requires a lot of effort to do well. And the pre-requisite is educating people. That’s why one of the keystones of Maximum New York is my class, The Foundations of New York.
In general, I think it’s relatively easy to get people to show up to civic/government things if they really understand how the government works, the organizer keeps the environment chill/fun, and each individual can connect showing up to concrete longer term change. (This is part of what I call the “buddies and pals” theory of political change. It works!)
But the hard work that precedes this easy option is actually educating people to a pretty high level, at which point they possess the psychological capability of being intrinsically interested in government. You don’t really have to force them to do anything at that point, they’ll want to.
As far as organizing something in Philly: I don’t know the particulars of its governmental structure and relationship to Harrisburg as well as NYC/Albany. If I wanted to get a group together in Philly, I’d first find a cool story of relatively recent, impressive change that’s occurred in that system, and then write a post that says something like “let’s do this again, good change is possible!” That grounds the meetup with a concrete example of good change, and gives people something to grip as they ascend the education cliff, which I think is vital to civic motivation. (And political pedagogy is its own separate challenge for instructors and civic group leaders.)
In Superabundance, we try to explain the issue. Please let me know if you disagree:
In fact, most people don’t invent or innovate anything. In their 2018 paper “Did Humans Evolve to Innovate with a Social Rather Than Technical Orientation?,” University of Queensland psychologists William von Hippel and Thomas Suddendorf noted a British study showing that only 6 percent of people reported modifying or innovating a product in the past three years. The share of innovators was even lower in other countries (e.g., 5.4 percent in Finland, 5.2 percent in the United States, and 3.7 percent in Japan).
Those low numbers may seem strange, given that human achievement is largely measured by technological advancement. But, as we explained in Chapter 7, human evolution is defined by social, rather than technical, innovation. Figuring out how to throw a stone is a technical problem, but using stones to ward off predators requires a social solution (i.e., coordinated bombardment). Homo erectus invented tools that were superior to those produced by its ancestors, but the division of labor, which improved the manufacture of those tools and enabled our ancestors to hunt large animals, was entirely social. Finally, fire increased our capacity to extract calories from food, but without using the former for social gatherings, we would never have developed the rich and diverse cultures that made it possible to accumulate knowledge. Technology makes our lives easier, but the success of our species is contingent on our ability to cooperate and organize as a society.
Moreover, since the evolutionary fitness of individual humans is based primarily on their ability to cooperate, most people choose a social solution over a technical one when confronted with a problem. If you need to put sunscreen on your back, it’s easier to ask your friend to rub it in for you than to MacGyver your own lotion-rubbing apparatus. The only reason not to ask for help would be that you didn’t have any friends around or—and this is crucial—that you had a unique personality characteristic that made asking for help unappealing.
Less social individuals appear to be more likely to invent a technical solution rather than a social one, which makes intuitive sense. People who would prefer to solve a problem by themselves would be more likely to invent something. Besides intuition, lots of data suggest a negative correlation between sociality and technical innovation. “Engineers and physical scientists show higher levels of autistic traits (one of which is diminished social orientation) than people in the humanities and social sciences,” von Hippel and Suddendorf noted. “Unsurprisingly, engineers and physical scientists are also more likely than people in the humanities and social sciences to hold patents and are also more likely to innovate products for their own use. As a notable example, Silicon Valley is a hotbed of technical innovation and also features an unusual concentration of people on the autism spectrum.”
Hello everyone, I am a little late on this so this may go unread.
Anyway, my name is Zachary. I graduated university recently with a degree in mathematical economics, and I now work in data analytics for a luxury retail firm. My long-term career interests revolve around computational science, probably in a field related to economic development/urban science. I’m now working towards these goals by taking further courses in information science and mathematics—although I have a long way to go!
Last year, I was taking a course on historical economic growth, and learned about the core concepts that helped our kind escape the Malthusian trap and achieve accelerating economic growth. It quickly became apparent to me that we should aim as a species to continue achieving this rapid growth, while also remaining cognizant to growth that aligns well with liberal values. Through ourworldindata.com and other forums like EA/LW, I became aware of Jason and the wider movement focusing on Progress Studies, and instantly became interested. Now that I have (slightly) more free time in my life, I’m excited to learn and contribute as much as I can!
My understanding of the last 10 years or so of policy is wide agreement that this is both the easiest way to get small changes made when you want them, and the hardest to stop when you don’t, which is why the US government shuts down periodically.
Most of the executive details can actually be influenced by well informed private citizens with no special access whatsoever, because regulatory agencies have public comment periods in the US. There was one for AI standards by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, for example.
Naturally most of the public comments for this kind of thing are coordinated by lobbyists instead of actually being comments from the public, which makes a public comments a natural target for coordination effort from the Unblock.
If I were to boil down who I am into one sentence, it’s that I am an US-based technologist and civic entrepreneur dedicated to building and evangelizing tools, systems, and movements that accelerate human and planetary flourishing.
I co-founded Civics Unplugged and Dream DAO, which train Gen Z civic innovators. I was honored as Forbes 30 Under 30 for this work.
I am currently focused on supporting Gitcoin DAO and various projects related to leveling up America with foundational technology.
I don’t know if there was one moment that got me into the “progress” space, but I’m obsessed with the idea of the US breaking free from the grips of doomerism and stagnation and achieving a new Golden Age. We have the most talent and resources in the world. If we can’t do it, that doesn’t bode well for humanity.
I appreciate you connecting dots and helping me see the coherence across emerging thought leadership.
This is the basic thesis of what Derek Thompson calls the “abundance agenda”, Ezra Klein calls “supply-side progressivism”, Noah Smith calls “new industrialism”, Katherine Boyle of Andreessen Horowitz calls “American dynamism”, and the Institute for Progress simply calls “progress.”
I also appreciate you pointing out that there is a difference between libertarianism and unblocking supply. Important nuance that could be easy to miss.
I’m wondering: do you consider market concentration to be a meaningful blocker to supply, and anti-trust to be an unblocker?
Another framing is that X only works on easy-to-justify “lean ideas.” Which is entirely rational from a business perspective. So maybe it’s less / not just naïveté but simply an inability to legibly justify an idea. You could call that naive I suppose.
In the chart “Trends in Nondefense R&D by Function”, I just can’t understand why we spend so little on energy research. We spend less on energy than on space. It just seems illogical to me.
My name is Lap Gong Leong. Before discovering Progress Studies, I was an aimless student at Borough of Manhattan Community College. One day, I stumbled upon Jason Crawford’s blog through Eli Dourado’s Twitter feed. Jason’s alluring and descriptive writing style converted me to the Progress Studies creed. Unlike Effective Altruism, liberalism, and conservatism, Progress Studies is a distinctively optimistic and genuine belief system. It is compatible with different ideologies and focused on improving the present and the future. For what it’s worth, it also makes for great fiction.
I am currently working on a manuscript, but will hopefully write more stories about technological change and increasing productivity.
If anyone wants to collaborate, you can write to me at leonglapgong@gmail.com
Taleb writes the following for a hypothetical National Entrepreneur Day: ”Most of you will fail, disrespected, impoverished, but we are grateful for the risks you are taking and the sacrifices you are making for the sake of the economic growth of the planet and pulling others out of poverty. You are at the source of our antifragility. Our nation thanks you.”
Rewarding innovators with non-economic goods just for trying.
I think there’s a strong case that people exploring innovation in a startup way, including those who fail, should be driven in a semi-irrational way like war heroes or martyrs. Dedication is good for success, especially if the people in question are not dependent on zero-sum resources and society as a whole can afford to have multiple competing crazily driven people.
Yes, there are benefits to trying new hard things that are not captured by the entrepreneur, so we should want them to try even when the cost/benefit to them is marginal or even somewhat under water.
Bezos once said he would keep funding a project as long as it had one high-judgment champion. Of course, that leaves open the meta-judgment of who is high-judgment, and then it allows them to be a champion without having a solid “rational” case for the project.
The American political system is far more functional than most people would guess, particularly when you zoom in to various states and cities. New York City and State are seemingly on the cusp of a housing policy revolution, and there’s no better time to get into politics here if you value housing abundance.
An NYC with lifted growth controls would be transformational, and I think most people are sleeping on it. I wrote the case for New York housing optimism here. The past month has been truly remarkable, and more people need to know about it.
I’m Daniel Golliher, the founder of Maximum New York; my goal is to change New York City (and state) politics/law so that it can grow quickly and build things again—housing and transit chiefly, but not exclusively. Allowing NYC to grow again would have profound impacts around the country and world, and its growth drove immense progress in the past. We can have that again.
I also work to make sure people understand how functional our current governmental system actually is. One of the keystones to MNY is my class, The Foundations of New York. Most people are stuck in a cold-start trap with regard to learning about effective political work, and I fix that by providing a rigorous introduction to NYC government, law, and politics. My goal is to bring more minds online to work in the political arena. MNY is about a year old, but already has some great results.
You can find me on Twitter here—looking forward to meeting more of you.
You seem talented at making statements that are both deniable and very clear to your target audience. Was this a skill that you deliberately practiced, were you naturally good at it, or did you pick it up some other way?
For example, while running VaccinateCA, I could easily intuit your opinion on public Health as a field, but I don’t recall you every saying anything explicitly negative during that time. I also vaguely remember some comment you made about a “certain monopsonistic firm in Nagoya” that you didn’t name because, because… it would be impolite(?), but that every salaryman would instantly recognize. I figured it out, but it seemed unusual to deliberately not name a company out of politeness, while also making it very clear.
I was a Japanese salaryman during my formative years. This is the way salarymen talk, and sometimes it is diagnosed by people who do not understand it as e.g. duplicity or unwillingness to say what we mean, when it is more often just a culturally-inflected execution on saying something which is absolutely unambiguous to its target audience but not socially ruinous.
No Japanese salaryman needs you to spell out the identity of a large automobile manufacturer near Nagoya; literal children know what that must mean. But salarymen understand, and are frequently not merely participants in but active proponents of, a values system in which one must not make trouble for firms with which one was previously affiliated.
Do I engage salaryman mode intentionally sometimes for tactical reasons? Absolutely. For example:
For example, while running VaccinateCA, I could easily intuit your opinion on public Health as a field, but I don’t recall you every saying anything explicitly negative during that time.
Yes, you recall correctly. I would be negatively surprised if there was a single public statement I made anywhere between Day 0 and Day 200 which could be quoted in a news article as a criticism of e.g. the government. Being quoted in the news article as being critical of the government was, I perceived, likely to cost lives at the margin. I bent my professional energies and skill to not accidentally letting that quote slip, and other people were helping achieve the same (from us as an organization and from me specifically).
This is the way salarymen talk, and sometimes it is diagnosed by people who do not understand it as e.g. duplicity
In the not-to-distant past, I would have reflexively dismissed this sort of speech as “political BS”, yes. :sweat_smile: I suspect I was far from alone, among engineer-types, though.
I’m somewhat reminded of how would-be technical founders are cautioned that, while it is indeed bad to let the sales team run the company, sales is a very real skill that that deserves respect.
Thank you for your response and, of course, for the work you did running VaccinateCA.
I recall you writing at some point that you kept waiting for the “official” covid response team to take over for VaccinateCA, and were shocked at the realization that no such team existed.
This sentiment didn’t come through in the oral history. Did your feelings on this matter change?
Apologies, I didn’t communicate what I meant very well (I read the whole piece, I promise!). But thinking it over, I’m not sure there’s a useful conversation to be had around the question as I meant it.
I like this time-price comparison mechanism, because it looks like it will better for tracking human-level impact than money will. I am looking forward to the book!
Out of curiosity, what was the time price gain for the previous 40-50 year spans before the ones you mention? The stagnation claim isn’t that progress is literally zero, but that the last 50 years has shown us much less than the 50 years before that, and the 50 years before that. Thiel’s position is more specific to the United States, and I note that in the link you compare the Chinese, Indian and American cases:
For the time it took to buy one unit in the three-commodity basket in 1960, they would get 27 units in 2021. The Chinese gained 7 hours and 42 minutes a day to devote to other activities.
The Indian case:
For the time it took them to buy one unit in the three-commodity basket in 1960, they got 5.35 baskets in 2021. Thus, they gained 6 hours and 30 minutes a day.
The American case:
For the time it took them to earn enough money to buy one unit in the three-commodity basket in 1960, they got 4.45 baskets in 2021. Americans gained 46.5 minutes a day to devote to other activities.
7.7 hours and 6.5 hours are very different from 0.775 hours. This makes it look like the Chinese made just shy of 10x the progress America did, by time-price comparisons. Following on the roughly 50 year chunks, this means that China made 10x the progress America did over the last 50 years, by following the path America did the 50 years before that.
This seems consistent with the claims in The Rise and Fall of American Growth, which to oversimplify amount to most of the growth after WWII being due to fully capitalizing on all the inventions from the end of the 19th century, and that there are limits to that growth.
I don’t think it makes sense to compare America’s growth vs China or India’s growth over this period.
Yes, the countries were adopting similar technologies, but when America was adopting them, they were adopting those technologies at the technological frontier. When China and India were adopting them, they were not. It’s easier to grow by adopting already invented technologies than by inventing new ones. This is essentially the logic behind Solow-Swan convergence between rich and poor countries, which as an economic model has held up pretty well to what we observe in the real world.
As advocates of progress studies, we should be looking to see if it is possible to accelerate the rate of frontier growth. There are good reasons to think it might be. As others mentioned, J. Storrs Hall lays out some technologies that were not adopted for various reasons. AI could greatly accelerate technological and economic development. But also, we’ve also observed upshifts in economic growth in the past. Post-Industrial revolution, the economic growth rate, at the frontier and per capita, was about 1% a year, then about 1.5% a year after 1880, and about 2.5% a year after 1930 (I think—my memory is a little fuzzy on the exact numbers here). Thomas Philippon’s paper (summarized by the author in Tweet form here) offers some interesting insights into why this might be. We’ve seen the story of accelerating frontier growth before—the question is why haven’t seen it again in the past 50 years.
I agree that making direct comparisons don’t make sense on their own merits; I used them as stand-ins for the previous period of American growth (which may be in the book, but were not in the link). I don’t think the frontier-vs-catch-up distinction matters to the point argued in the post, though: I strongly expect the American technical frontier 1920-1970 period looks more like the China or India catch-up 1970-2020 period than it does the American technical frontier 1970-2020.
Phrased another way, the time-price method gives us the same stagnation story as the conventional methods do. This is a separate question than what is to be done to speed up frontier progress.
The tweet summary from Philippon is very interesting—I just pulled it from NBER, where the title appears to be Additive Growth.
How do you (Patrick) juxtapose “underpromise and overdeliver” against, when you’re asked, assessing what someone with your (Patrick’s) perceptions and skills could reasonably achieve going forward, given the opportunity?
This would depend markedly on who I was talking to and what I needed out of them. Certain audiences counsel being much more explicit about e.g. one’s level of ambition and where one believes oneself to be on a spectrum of ability/drive/horsepower/etc.
Then there is the comms strategy bit of it, where “I have many weird hobbies, like sometimes running the U.S.’s shadow vaccine location data information provider” is both a self-deprecating joke and also a brief and loaded statement about recent realized results suggestive of my efficacy in doing hard things.
Ideally problematic payments are caught immediately, but in the real world you end up with a bucket of “clearly shady in retrospect” payments that you have to work with.
In a situation where a fix is available (e.g. refund/cancellation), there’s an interesting timing question.
If you take action immediately, you have the satisfaction of knowing victims are made square, likely before they notice the problem.
If you delay a little, possibly till just before the benefits are reaped, you reduce the speed at which the attackers can learn about your systems.
How do you think about this balance? There’s also the question of if it’s worth investing in systems to fake out scammers by tweaking visibility (similar to shadow-banning).
Double dipping—I’m interested in if you’ve built principles around this, or if it’s something you think about per-incident based on the apparent sophistication of the attackers.
The amount of work given to these questions in industry is far, far higher a) than people model it as and b) that I can conveniently fit in a comment.
To the second question, the answer is Yes. Sometimes this question is answered by plans informed by written principles drawn up well in advance of need and enforced through systems implemented by people, where the actual decisioning substrate might be professionals or might be a computer system. Sometimes it is ad hoc decisionmaking in the moment.
With regards to “nerdy writing on the internet”, there seems to be some sort of loose consensus that moving slowly is a policy choice and that there’s lots of relatively cheap ways we could improve the lives of many, many people.
There’s also been a parallel convergence within the policy space of the great power of cash benefits, culminating in the COVID relief bills and the fully refundable Child Tax Credit. This follows the same “we can do better” theme as the above consensus, but instead ends up talking about theories of politics. Mainly end up on the Nordic Social Welfare States—best example would probably be Matt Bruenig and his People’s Policy Project.
What is curious is that these two themes avoid intermingling. Can I ask you why you think that is? That more tech-optimists don’t also promote and campaign for greater social welfare?
Especially with Stripe, as it is so focused on building extremely robust, invisible, powerful infrastructure. In a way, that could also be seen as effective, egalitarian, statecraft. Obviously, your recent piece is on how the current state of affairs is anything but that.
So why is it that tech-optimists put their efforts into the private space, rather than in public office? Why do you? Is it because you’ve been so disappointed in the status quo? Do you think any efforts would be futile? Are you suspicious of states?
I think that there is a nuanced discourse to be made about tech and power, but a comment field is likely not the place to do it.
I will note that tech has no small amount of power, that traditional power centers are not uniformly thrilled about that, and that tech’s response to that has not been to stop doing the things that make tech powerful, like e.g. building things people find useful, getting them to use those things, and exercising responsible discretion as to decisions made about how those things should interface with broader society.
So why is it that tech-optimists put their efforts into the private space, rather than in public office? Why do you? Is it because you’ve been so disappointed in the status quo? Do you think any efforts would be futile? Are you suspicious of states?
Speaking only for myself, for most of my life, I did not want power and (mostly) do not want power. There was a brief period during which the prevailing allocation of power between duly constituted authorities and myself was actively killing people, and during that period my duty was clear. My most preferred world vis the public sector for the rest of my life is I occasionally send them paperwork and money and they process that paperwork efficiently. There are other potential future worlds; I predict I would enjoy them much less.
Just finished this book by Kate Bingham, a venture capitalist who was head of the UK Vaccine Task Force which invested and got companies to build their supply chains in the country, then was crucified by the media for her efforts. Similar themes to you—gov naivety, lack of technical knowledge, obsession with process over outcome, the optics over the details. I recommend it https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/63124712-the-long-shot
“My most preferred world vis the public sector for the rest of my life is I occasionally send them paperwork and money and they process that paperwork efficiently”
After reading your article on VaccinateCA, I walked away with a strong impression that “americans got the government they deserve”. What’s your thought on this?
I am extremely skeptical of desert narratives and feel they frequently blind us to actions which are in our locus of control and +EV in terms of impacts which are relevant to our moral calculi, like (as a not entirely random example) starting a crash effort to fix the government’s manifest failure to act effectively during a pandemic with the goal of saving lives.
I am also extremely skeptical of desert narratives generally, but the above seems like a sufficient reason to reprogram oneself to not weight them highly.
“Staff” level operators in some state governments: up, in a way which was surprising to me.
American governors: down markedly, both with regards to specific identifiable examples but also as an institution.
Public health as a field: they don’t make numbers low enough to quantify my regard for it as a result of the pandemic.
FDA: Down markedly and continued going down with every additional decision.
CDC: Somewhere between FDA and public health as a field.
Pharmacies: down markedly.
Pharmacists: up markedly; I previously regarded this field as a charming historical anomaly and saw some genuinely heroic behavior (amid a lot of mediocrity) in service of patient health outcomes.
Doctors: down slightly as a class due to inconsistency on several subjects the field should have been markedly consistent in execution on.
The people in charge of complex public software projects for a nation other than the US: up markedly, in a way which was extremely surprising to me, because while operational hypercompetence for that nation is basically Tuesday I would not have predicted approximately mid private sector levels of competence in the field of software from the government under almost any circumstances.
AppAmaGooBookSoft: For reasons I cannot share, down on net with respect to my confidence in their ability to act correctly given their values, up slightly with regards to my perception of their realized ability to positively impact the world. (Note that I am near the extreme right of the curve with regards to my estimate of how good AppAmaGooBookSoft are for the world and I feel it depressing that the extreme right of the curve is not where everyone interest hangs out all the time because this should be extremely uncontroversial.)
What are plausible explanations for early “vaccination rollout” authorities’ communications having been so aggressively wrongheaded, to hinder the use of about-to-expire doses?
Extreme risk-aversion, poor incentives to be right, a true values function which does not actually reflect the one we expect them to have, and extreme undercompetence in areas that we expect competence.
What’s your resin 3d printing setup like? Specifically on the chemical waste side of things, how does disposal work in Tokyo vs [insert generic stateside metro area]? I guess this is more of a question about Japanese infrastructure for disposal of small-scale hazardous waste and possible connections to “the will to have nice things”.
In exchange for this information, I offer 2 lesser known tips for resin printing 😁 (that I assume you may not be aware of yet):
Ultrasonic cleaners are way more efficient and effective than pickle containers and toothbrushes at cleaning (though more expensive).
Hot (near boiling/as hot as you’re comfortable touching briefly with a gloved hand) water makes most supports quickly and easily peel off in seconds (saving tons of time). Dunk models in the water for about 10 seconds at a time. Remove supports with (gloved) hands until it starts to cool. Repeat until they’re all gone.
Naturally, there’s a burn risk here, so this tip comes with an obligatory “use at your own risk” disclaimer.
There exists a type of resin called Ekimate in Japan which is much less smelly/irritating than most resin formulations, costs ~3X as much, and which represents itself as being pourable down the drain in a matter which suggests to me that lawyers/etc have reviewed the claim and think it is within appropriate bounds for marketing material made by chemical manufacturing companies. I do not pour it down the drain. If I had a high tolerance for running wonderful small businesses with inventory, I would try to get their exclusive license to distribute in the US and make it a thing; it’s an obviously better (though premium) product than any other resin formulation I’ve seen.
My liquid waste gets cured outside in sun for several days while evaporating to reduce volume then wiped up with towels and discarded in standard (burnable) trash; my solid waste gets cured out of an abundance of caution then discarded in standard (burnable) trash. I have immaterial use of IPA which is not discardable in trash but which also evaporates easily, and simply let it evaporate outside after I am done with it (after cleaning/reuse cycles).
The percentage cost for card processing (US credit/debit cards in mind here) is set up in a way that would make sense if each individual transaction had a significant marginal cost. Is that the right way to think about the supply side cost of card processing? I don’t think it is, so to me it feels like low-cost-transaction merchants are being way overcharged compared to high-cost-transaction merchants. What am I missing? My mental model of the cost of card processing is a big upfront cost for the initial network and for new features, but very very low marginal cost for each transaction (even including the servers etc required to keep it running).
For example, 2.9%+$0.30 per transaction is 3.2% for a single $100 transaction, 5.9% for 10 $10 transactions and 32.9% for 100 $1 transactions.
I am slightly constrained with respect to talking about the economics of credit card processing in particular, but can I make the observation “A lot of people want financial services to be almost free in sticker cost (at least for people they care about), and all of society wants financial services to be very useful, and almost nothing which is useful in society rounds to free.”
And if I can make an analogy to software, many people wanted software to be basically free and we decided to make it basically free to consumers in return for locking them into fantastically lucrative ecosystems while keeping it very expensive for businesses. (And I think the model for software as “high fixed cost near zero marginal costs” would also need some very important asteriskes because it is factually not the case that Google can, on Tuesday, decide to simply let all the engineers go.)
There are various equilibria which could exist in regards to any particular set of financial services, and in fact we do see (different!) equilibria present in different places. In the place you live in, you see one particular equilibrium, and have a theory as to why you are there, which it is socially difficult for me to comment on.
Assuming you’re at liberty to comment, do you wish more companies adapted Elon’s “show your work from the last 2 weeks or get fired” approach to managing engineers?
I wouldn’t love the sort of culture this creates with regards to increasing perception of career risk from team constantly and making it almost impossible to construct longer-term plans or vision, as a general statement, but have some non-zero level of regard for the notion of “Sometimes one needs to radically change cultures in a hurry and the transition period for them may not resemble the new steady state.”
Either way, I think that if pulled off correctly the Twitter transition will be one of the most important experiments done in the history of scaled management. I perceive ‘smart money’ (both literally and metaphorically from the management class) as assigning very low likelihood to success here. I think some smart money has not updated sufficiently on the track record of people confidently predicting Elon Musk will fail.
I think I am slightly better calibrated than smart money in that regard, and find myself in agreement with smart money anyway.
I think there is perhaps a 20% chance that my next major adventure is another software company but feel like I’ve “got the merit badge” for doing a solo operation there and would likely not do it again.
Why is it so rare to see politicians running on the promise of eliminating government inefficiency? Closest we’ve got was Trump promising to “drain the swamp” but I doubt anyone took it to mean “I’ll get the Department of State to issue passport in 72 hours instead of 6 weeks”. I’ve heard numerous complaints about the California DMV but haven’t heard of a major politician running on a promise to reduce the wait times there.
I do not perceive this as being particularly rare?
But the problem is systemic, the specific issues are individually generally low-salience or they would have long-since been fixed, and a lot of the things necessary for true change run up against entrenched concentrated interests like e.g. government employee unions, the contracting apparatus, etc.
Our polity does not consider “EINS will be issued within an hour because obviously we are a high-functioning society seriously what the actual #*(#(%#” to be a reason to vote for a candidate at the margin and so our political system does not prioritize making that happen by default.
What do the Japanese think/write internally about being the nation with the highest median age in the world? Are there any drastic fertility-improvement proposals in the works, such as paying a $1m bounty to families with 6+ kids?
It is difficult for me to comment on issues of grave concern to the Japanese polity and I feel your first question is adequately answered (including in English) by appropriate Google searches, so I’d encourage you to make those Google searches. Your suggestion with regards to policy is materially outside of the present Overton window and almost all of my models for the Overton window in 10 years.
Suggestions which are much more inside the Overton window include gradually making Japan more hospitable to immigrants, which a) has already happened to a degree far underappreciated ex-Japan b) is more palatable to power than people model it as and c) would still have many kilometers to go to address long-term demographic trends.
How many years are we still away from being able to make (nearly) instant payments between developed countries with fees under 0.1%? (including hidden exchange rate fees)
This is currently possible in the Eurozone but AFAIK not possible between any other countries.
I do not perceive we are within 10 years of that happening (defined as “instant ~free money movement between banked people in US, JP, Australia, UK, Canada, and all present members of EU”) and my estimate is increasing over time rather than decreasing, which is counterintuitive.
The reason here is that the first companies to do it would necessarily be tech companies with global reach, and not the traditionally-understood financial sector. There are many governments which, for reasons which sound excellent to them, would prefer a) clipping the wings of large tech companies doing business globally and b) increasing the height of the firewall between BigTech and the financial system.
I also think the salience of this particular measure is lower for institutions than it is for individual humans who are routinely exposed to exactly this need, because the types of life situations which expose you to exactly this need are anticorrelated with having power over institutions.
Singapore has a government entity that builds open source technologies (eg static site generator, form maker) for other government departments to use. Could you se this being replicated elsewhere?
I don’t particularly think OSS is a necessary component of that model, but we’ve seen similar things with some level of efficacy in both the UK and Japan, which suggests to me that a very similar thing would achieve some level of impact in the US. The US Digital Service and similar have a portfolio approach; it will be interesting to see if they move in the direction of producing self-serve tools. (I do not perceive that as being a large portion of their portfolio as of today but am not an expert w/r/t their portfolio.)
“Open Tokyo engineering offices and give them material responsibility for products that ship globally” might be one of them. There are many, many reasons that companies don’t do that, and the biggest one is that it is hard and exposes the company to an internal language barrier, but all are solvable issues. (Also the market price of engineering in Tokyo is far less than the market price of engineering in many countries that U.S. startups happily put engineering offices.)
Any thoughts or meta-level lessons after VaccinateCA about how to improve competence in our institutions, particularly in government? So many problems (not just in the US) come down to corruption in government, or institutionalized incompetence, or a cultural expectation of slowness and low productivity, etc. How do we get underneath these problems to structural issues of organization and incentives, and fix the root causes?
From seeing parts of the official effort that vastly outperformed the median entry in the official effort, some ideas:
Continued experimentation with approaches like the U.S. Digital Service which attempt to create pockets of high-functioning competence and make them available at-need to people in the rest of the system who desire to consume e.g. engineering competence but cannot avail themselves of it locally due to institutional constraints. Stop trying to boil the ocean; start embracing boiling a pot of drinking water and then creating a factory to do that at scale.
This would have been against my beliefs for most of my life, but I think I am in favor of less people in strategic decisionmaking and more accountability for them versus having strategic decision being delegated to hundreds of thousands of people across tens of thousands of orgs, none of them feeling responsible for the final outcome. It may be a true statement that no individual anywhere thinks that they were ultimately responsible for vaccine administration policy or accountable for vaccination rates or other metrics of interest. That… is an insane result.
I think people outside the government need to become radically more familiar with how it operates, not as described in civics class but how it actually functions in the real world. The details of e.g. org charts, reporting lines, incentives, etc matter an awful lot, and to the extent those details are unknown outside of local communities of practice, they are unlikely to reflect our true values. (Or, in some cases, any values at all.) I think many mechanisms for transparency in government (public records laws, FOIA, etc) are positive, but it seems like we have a great deal of low-hanging fruit.
Is there a compelling reason why the state doesn’t publish an org chart, for example? I can imagine many; for one, I doubt the state actually is capable of publishing an org chart. That seems like a capability that we should demand from it as a condition of giving it unique authority to do certain things.
See the VaccinateCA piece, but there are many institutions which were not optimizing for “The US should attempt to maximize the number of lives saved during the pandemic” and we should be scandalized by that.
What sort of oversight can prevent a headless (or “committee”) venture from being launched, and what explains the existence of the other kind of oversight, that lets it happen?
I’ve worked at some tech companies which had a very effective answer to that question. At those companies here’s a strong cultural expectation that anything you want to get done should have a known Directly Responsible Individual. As the name suggests, the DRI is exactly one person who is responsible for making sure the thing gets done, and has the authority to make relevant decisions as an individual. (This sometimes goes by other names, but the concept is more or less the same.) If this person is doing poorly they can be replaced with someone else, but there needs to be one person who is ultimately individually responsible and has the corresponding individual authority.
This was probably a formal rule, but the real enforcement was cultural. Everybody Knew that there had to be someone in charge of doing the thing; otherwise how could they possibly expect the thing to get done? Putting a committee in charge instead of a person would have just felt bizarre, as unexpected and transgressive as dropping one’s trousers in a meeting.
This kind of culture can perpetuate itself easily once it exists, but I don’t know how to change an existing organizational culture to be this way, short of having someone at the top with a lot of power and the willingness to use it on this.
I’m largely sympathetic to this viewpoint, and the evidence seems clear-cut. Nevertheless, what I think people like Theil are alluding to, along with J. Storrs Hall in Where is my flying car, is that we could have had so much more progress (including flying cars, nuclear fusion, and supersonic transportation) if it weren’t for some combination of regulations, communism, wokeness and “ergophobia” or environmental romanticism, etc. I’m broadly sympathetic to this view too.
Seems to me that at some level, it’s true that we’ve had a lot of progress on a lot of important metrics, but also not as much progress as we really could have had in the world of atoms.
P.S, writing this from Sweden, where we’re now seeing record high electricity costs (as much of the rest of Europe). What if we had invested more aggressively in nuclear power during the last 20 years rather than having started to shut down our plants?
My name is Vito, i discovered Progress Studies through reading some articles online that linked to the movement and saw Jasons amazing blog and work and now forum on this crucial topic.
I come from a startup background having built 2 businesses & exited my recent. I’m now writing and rewriting my thoughts of the startup journey with elements relavant to progress studies which i hope are valuable to share.
If progress is not studied or understood, then i believe we will not know how to reach our full human potential.
I’m in Sydney, Australia, if your ever down under i’d be glad to give you a tour :) Thankyou for having me! Cheers
Dr. Newport, I enjoyed your video very much and the content is excellent and certainly worth a few minutes of my time sharing my thoughts on it. (I have some copy-editing/writing experience and am familiar with graphic design issues but not video.) I hope you find the comments below useful in some small way.
the essay is very well written, clear, concise, well-organized, has citations and interesting examples, well done
your voiceover is excellent, enunciation, tempo, evenness, and you have the added advantage of that authoritative British baritone so persuasive to Americans like me (I am only half kidding)
your video image is fine, you look young and informal, but earnest and obviously both passionate and well informed (i.e., the video does not seem slickly produced or professionally acted but rather seems like a polished, sincere effort by a trustworthy expert)
there’s not enough time in the video spent lingering on the maps and the quotes and anything that takes some time to process, it goes too fast from you to image back to you back to another image, etc.
some of the art images can be a second or two (someone falling, in a painting…is that Icarus?) but others need a lot more time because we’re taking in both your meaning (in the audio) and the meaning of the image on its own terms (in the video), and the connection between the two (in our heads, but then you keep talking and we have to integrate that too…), all at once, and that takes more time (at least for me) than you allow
solution? maybe less of you (no offense), or just fewer images in general, or different images that I’m not so inclined to pause and zoom in on to fully understand and read
also, if you’re only going to be speaking for say 10 seconds, there should not be a cut between takes, it should be all one take, and if you do include video of yourself talking you could spend slightly longer with the camera on you rather than continually cutting away. It’s a balance, and the balance is not quite right, but not being a video editor myself I am not sure how to articulate the problem.
the quotes obscure the faces, so I’d rather see the text below people’s photos (less of a problem for Edison and Beaumont, whose eyes you can at least see through the text) or do what you did with Arthur C. Clarke, put the quote after the photo, that will let us take more time reading his face and determining his character and then reading the quote, rather than trying to do both at once
and I especially DO NOT like the quote over your own face, put it below, on the bottom of the screen! I don’t want your face obscured or our eye contact with you obscured while you’re talking…here we had established this nice rapport and suddenly you’ve undermined it!
also on that note, your ending is wonderful but you aren’t looking at us (your video isn’t shown) when you say thank you (for watching and subscribing), which lessens the impact of your statement (almost like a liar, looking away! surely you mean it sincerely)—in general if you’re talking, we should either see you for the whole sentence, or at least the whole phrase. Some of the cuts throughout the video are mid-word and that is a problem, it’s jarring and distracts me from taking in the meaning of what I’m hearing.
on my mobile device (holding the phone vertically), most of the images are clear but the small ones all together around 6:45 are a bit unclear because too small, but I do like the impact of your graphical arrangement
I didn’t spend too much time analyzing your use of graphics and how they animate them, but I enjoyed the visual interest that provided, it mixed it up a bit. I’m not a big video-watcher or podcast listener, so normally a 11min video is not going to hold my full interest and this one did. (It’s partly your subject, partly your voice, but also the visually colorful and engaging graphics.)
around 8:30 you move on too quickly from Clarke’s wonderful 2nd law quote, I’d allow a pause here! (it’s building to the climax, too, which is a nice place for a little mental “breather”/silence for effect)
the blue light over your bookcase is very distracting and the background seems cluttered (I’m a book lover, too, but it reads “busy”)
the “valuable negative information” graphical text feels like 3 columns that are about to be filled in, which is probably not your intent. Maybe put it in normally spaced text, with quotes around it to show it’s a connected phrase, a euphemism (a good one).
I like your little laughs and smiles at the amusing bits, make sure those are with the camera on you, not an image, lest we miss out on your expression…that’s part of your emotional connection with your audience, which will motivate them to continue—you’re experiencing the same amusement together. Seeing that on your face as well as hearing it (in your breath) will reinforce that connection and bring them back for more videos.
I hope you do more! Or have you already? Very nice to make your acquaintance and I hope the above has been valuable. You should feel very proud of your work. Thanks for sharing it.
Thanks so much for these excellent comments. Really really appreciate all your thoughts on this, it’s incredibly helpful.
Timing is an absolute nightmare and so easy to get wrong when you spend so long around the same footage. My first video had comments I was taking too short a time on graphs and text and clearly that’s still something I have to be better on!
Re. time on screen, I’m very happy to reduce myself some more haha! One restriction there, that I realised with this video, was it’s actually something mostly dictated in the quality of images/footage I can use in the piece—I had a lot of extra “airplane” stuff footage but it got very boring. But a lot of stuff I watch doesn’t spend so long on individuals (bar some exceptions) so I agree!
Honestly really appreciate you taking the time to give such extensive thoughts—and to put together the bits you liked and thought worked well, as well as improvements. I have a document with all feedback I’ve received and I look through it and try to iteratively improve when editing my next one, so this makes a massive difference, thanks again!
When you ask questions like that, the name Vaclav is going to come up at least a few times, and Energy and Civilization was a titan of a book. The other book from Smil that I would have to recommend in line with your question would be “Grand Transitions How the Modern World Was Made”—Vaclav Smil, c2021
Note: Smil is a fellow Canadian, and I’ve had the opportunity to bounce emails around with him since 2018, when when I reached out to ask his take on some Tesla-related questions. While he’s a truly brilliant thinker, a genuine world expert on energy, many books, including Rhodes’s, took inspiration from his work — he is, from my perspective, become, or perhaps always was, glass-half-empty on the future of human civilization. I had the opportunity to interview him for an op-ed earlier in the year but didn’t push it as I was somewhat worried it would result in an unrestrained dump on future progress.
Hi everyone. My name is Coleman. I’m a software engineer for a genetic testing company. I’m based in San Diego, California. I guess I could say my hobby is what Jason might call the philosophy of progress. I’ve been a big fan of Jason’s writing for a while now (my favorites are the review of Where’s My Flying Car and We Need a New Philosophy of Progress). I’m a big fan of Balaji Srinivasan’s thinking, too.
I have been kind of obsessed for a while now with the question of how we accelerate technological progress. I like trying to imagine a better future and how we would get there. I have been writing little posts on this kind of thing for the last year, about. I’m actually very interested in trying to do something like what Jason’s done in becoming an influential progress intellectual so am looking forward to learning more about the progress writer fellowship. Really excited to be here!
On metascience policy and writings: it’s really hard to judge impact! We do a lot of writing at the Good Science Project, and our newsletter is read throughout the White House, congressional staff, NIH leaders, etc. Sometimes people behind the scenes ask for ideas and input. But policy action is long, tortuous and unpredictable (e.g., ARPA-H took some 5 years to enact since the time that my board member Mike Stebbins and others started writing and talking about that idea).
In the context of federal government action, 5 years feels like a huge win! Out of curiosity, was there any kind of generic background on the kind of policy being worked on? For example, with ARPA-H, did the background include the founding of other ARPA-pattern agencies, the references about the relevant authority, or budgetary shenanigans?
It’s unrelated to the OP, but what I am driving at here is how much pre-work on behalf of the government is a valid optimization target. I want to make a comparison with the legislative case, where a successful strategy in lobbying is providing draft language for a bill; is there an equivalent in the executive case?
As of 2017, the Suzanne Wright Foundation, which has only two employees and makes only around $400k in grants a year, started publishing a series of articles on the idea of a DARPA for health (with amateurish graphics). It created a separate website (also with amateurish design and graphics), and a series of short videos (e.g., this, this, and this, each of which had fewer than 2,300 views by 2022).
All of that might seem like an inauspicious beginning, but the foundation also got the support of Geoff Ling (who had founded the DARPA Biological Technologies Office) and Mike Stebbins (who had just spent six years as Assistant Director for Biotechnology at the White House OSTP).
Eventually, the idea made its way into the Biden campaign’s hands, and Biden started promoting the idea on the campaign trail (see this clip from an August 8, 2019 speech). Ling and Stebbins then wrote up their proposal in more detail for the Day One Project, sponsored by the Federation of American Scientists.
I’ve been interviewed as a spokesman for the progress movement in Vox and BBC, and I’ve done lots of podcast interviews as well.
I’m turning The Roots of Progress into a nonprofit that will support progress writers like myself. In 2023 we’ll be launching a “career accelerator” fellowship for progress writers.
Hey all, I’m Seth. I am a developer and informatics researcher in biotech. I’m interested in the notions of Progress more abstractly, in thinking about how we define it in multiple dimensions, e.g. beyond economic metrics. I admit having a bit of a “fearful” mindset with Progress and growth, namely what happens if we don’t keep advancing, what if life is basically the same for decades or centuries, how we overcome productivity plateaus, and other more philosophical notions. I’m also interested in the more concrete forms of what the advancements are that constitute Progress, and how we get more of that.
I’m located near Boston and engage with other Progress-minded folks occasionally (although we meet up rather infrequently). Happy to be here!
Any comments on worker safety? Whenever the topic of building speed comes up, some people assume that faster construction must be less safe, and more workers were injured or died. Wondering what the data says
It’s pretty common to interpret slower speed as the inevitable cost of increased safety, but looking at some notable projects the link is less than obvious to me:
-5 workers died during the construction of the Empire State Building, which was built in 11 months
-0(!) workers died during the construction of the Chrysler Building, which was built in 20 months.
-5 workers died during the construction of the Sears Tower, which was built in 4 years.
-2 workers died during the construction of One World Trade, which was built in 7 years
-60(!) workers died during the construction of the original World Trade Center, which was also built in 7 years.
It would be interesting to do a more thorough analysis, scaled to building size, but it’s not trivial to do (I did a quick check for number of deaths on some less notable buildings and they’re much harder to find if they exist at all). It’s a reasonable hypothesis, but most people suggesting I think are going off vibes rather than actual data. And it seems clear that it’s at least in-principle possible to build both quickly and safely (though you could make like, a stochastic argument against this).
The difficulty isn’t normalizing (per square foot is probably the most reasonable), it’s getting death information for individual buildings. Outside of the most famous buildings it’s not easy to track down.
Vaclav Smil has written a couple books on energy; I haven’t read them yet but probably Energy and Civilization: A History is the most relevant?
Our World in Data has a lot of research on energy, see e.g. this chart of GDP per capita vs. energy use that shows a strong correlation (the relationship is reciprocal, IMO).
Eli Dourado and Austin Vernon have an article on energy superabundance—what could we do in the future with lots more energy?
I think that “Where is my Flying Car” makes this case persuasively, especially for the modern day.
There are a few interesting articles on Anton Howe’s substack if you are interested in a more historical perspective on energy use and technology. He writes on early modern economic history, 1550-1700 or so, and a lot of his writing relates to how the foundation for the Industrial Revolution was laid. Many of his posts are paywalled, however.
Hey folks, I’m Erik. I heard about Progress Studies through an interest in economic history. I’ve always been very interested in the Industrial Revolution, why development occurs or why it doesn’t, and what we could do to accelerate the rate of technological progress. Progress Studies appealed to me because it’s a group of people very interested in those same questions through a modern lens—what works and what doesn’t to increase industrial and technological advancement in the modern day?
As some might guess from my earlier comment, my background is in economics. My day job is in business intelligence, I also have a startup project related to zoning/real estate I’m working on the side. I’m based out of the Philly area, I encourage all other Philly area folks to join the community group! Once we have a few people, let’s find an evening we can do a happy hour or something. Looking forward to connecting with different people!
I have been thinking about this claim as of late: does medical school steal lock up too much top talent in the US? Your evidence for the case in Germany is interesting. One thing about the medical profession is that it is always clear what the next step to take is. While becoming a founder or even an electrical engineer the number of options remains open for a very long time. So it is possible that the medical field is also dulling our wits.
I think your test score data is good. I wish you also had data about what fields A* students matriculate into. Is there any way to find that? We could compare it with the US data on A* students to see the size of the effect. Of course the two education systems are different enough that this may be difficult.
I ran this by one of our friends who is in radiology and he seems to think it plausible.
I want to research this more and chat more!
One thing about the medical profession is that it is always clear what the next step to take is. While becoming a founder or even an electrical engineer the number of options remains open for a very long time. So it is possible that the medical field is also dulling our wits.
Definitely agree with this; it seems very hard to leave when the next steps are so obvious.
Yeah, I’d love to have that data as well. What’s your background? Happy to chat more, though I will likely shift more of my focus on biosecurity things over the coming weeks.
I think there is a couple of ways perhaps to get at studying the size of medical school problem, supposing it exists.
We could measure the opportunity cost of careers with similar matriculating student profiles to med school students.
We could also study the careers of accepted students who don’t wind up going.
Using Germany vs US as comparison groups maybe a little bit tricky given the differences in education systems. But I’m sure there’s already some decent solutions to that problem worked out in other papers.
I work on secondary school startups, college and career counseling, and academic development. So day to day I’m trying to provide signals to help direct the flow of our students towards better things.
Metascience: improving the way research is managed and funded, or just directly funding good research that can’t easily be funded through traditional channels. Orgs in this theme include PARPA, Convergent Research, New Science, Arcadia Science, and Arc Institute.
Policy: regulatory reform to remove roadblocks and improve incentives for progress. The Institute for Progress and the Center for Growth and Opportunity do good work here.
Culture: studying and communicating the idea that progress is possible and desirable. This is what The Roots of Progress is doing. Our World in Data plays a similar role, in a more neutral and fact-based way.
I could imagine a fund on any of these themes, making grants to orgs like the ones mentioned, or smaller grants directly to individual projects on these themes. I could also imagine a fund covering two or all three of them.
The Roots of Progress does take donations from the public, as does Our World in Data; I’m not sure about the others.
PS: One challenge is that there isn’t a single “QALYs/$” metric that you can quantify and stack-rank all opportunities on. So grant decisions need to rely on vision, strategy, and judgment. This probably means that it makes more sense for there to be multiple funding organizations, rather than just one. (Fitting with a general theme I have noticed that progress studies is more pluralistic, federated, and bottom-up; vs. EA which is more centralized, technocratic, and top-down.)
Not only you don’t have QALY, but you cannot RCT easily things in progress studies.
The most progress-adjacent idea that EA has debated is the against Randomista post and to have more focus on economic growth. But right now I think the consensus is that QALYs and RCTs will still dominate.
I’d say the donation legibility is a concern here. The best progress-related institutions aren’t set up in a way where low dollar denominated donations make obvious helpful marginally valuable improvements. When I donate five hundred dollars to vaccines acquisition and distribution in Angola, that’s believably a marginal difference that matters.
Under what models of progress does a marginal $500 provide a lot of value? I think in the context of microgrants to young people and young ideas, it is great! But I’m having trouble for something like New Science.
Maybe the marginal 500 dollars should be spent on youtube advertising for channels that are PS aligned? I can find that somewhat believable.… particularly because I have my eye on a certain Nigerian youtuber who is criminally undersubscribed.
On the Policy point, I often wonder what occurs after the research and writings done by e.g. Institute for Progress (and yes a QALYs/$ metric seems near impossible). How could one better discern the outcomes of the Policy work, and that the research and recommendations for Policy isn’t shouting into a void?
Another way of thinking about it is if one were to put money or time into Policy, what would those actions look like?
You mention the Manhattan Project (govt) and GE (industry), and I feel like there are still a lot of similar non-academic research groups that run on more like a Compton model. For instance I worked at the Boston Fed, the CFPB, and the World Bank (as well as in academia) and they all have that flavor of working on a team toward a common goal, with some direction from above. We were also given some time purely for our own independent research.
American Genesis: A Century of Invention and Technological Enthusiasm, 1870–1970, by Thomas P. Hughes.
A history of the creation of large technological systems of production and distribution, and the social response to those systems. It’s not only about the century of technological enthusiasm, but also about how that enthusiasm went wrong (in my opinion), and how it came to an end.
Louis Pasteur: Free Lance of Science, by René Dubos.
A biography of Louis Pasteur, covering his major achievements and placing them in the context of the origins of microbiology and the germ theory of disease.
I enjoyed this book very much. First, the career of Pasteur is an amazing one, well deserving of a biography. Pasteur demonstrated the role of microbes in fermentation processes, disproved contemporary claims of the spontaneous generation of life, played a major role (along with Robert Koch) in establishing the germ theory of disease, and invented the first vaccines after Edward Jenner, including the vaccine for rabies. Any of these accomplishments alone would probably have earned him a place in the history books; all of them together make him a rare hero in the history of progress.
Second, the book goes beyond biography, placing its subject in the full context of the scientific developments of the age. The first chapter paints a picture of the intellectual atmosphere of the 19th century; later chapters wax philosophical about the nature of scientific accomplishment and creative work.
The Alchemy of Air: A Jewish Genius, a Doomed Tycoon, and the Scientific Discovery That Fed the World but Fueled the Rise of Hitler, by Thomas Hager.
The story of the Haber-Bosch process for creating synthetic ammonia, which is crucial for producing the fertilizer needed to feed the seven billion or so people on Earth today. In Hager’s phrase, it turns air into bread. It’s also the story of the lives of the men who created it, and its consequences for world agriculture and for Germany during the World Wars.
This was a very well-told story, and I’d recommend it to any history buff. Unlike many books on the history of technology and industry, it does a good job of explaining the science and engineering behind the invention (but it doesn’t get too technical for a general audience).
The Knowledge: How to Rebuild Civilization in the Aftermath of a Cataclysm, by Lewis Dartnell.
A summary of the technologies that the modern industrial world depends on, the basic principles of their operation, and how one might re-establish them if the world were to suffer some global shock that led to the breakdown of civilization. A good survey of the key technologies of industrial civilization.
A Culture of Growth: The Origins of the Modern Economy, by Joel Mokyr.
This book was pivotal in the launch of The Roots of Progress. It is about how the Enlightenment, between about 1500 and 1700, set the stage for the Industrial Revolution. Special attention is given to Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton.
I had to skim many chapters of this book, especially in the beginning. However, I found its key ideas absolutely fascinating. For a summary, see Mokyr’s article in The Atlantic,“Progress Isn’t Natural”.
Where Is My Flying Car? A Memoir of Future Past, by J. Storrs Hall.
A work combining historical analysis and bold futurism, looking for the causes of the Great Stagnation (including and especially our lack of flying cars) and painting a picture of what a technological future could look like.
I enjoyed this book a lot, and learned a lot from it. Hall’s vision of the future includes not only flying cars, but nanotechnology-powered manufacturing, nuclear-powered everything, and artificial intelligence. My biggest single takeaway from the book is the potential for nanotech to give us atomically precise manufacturing, and the mind-blowing possibilities for this. I also appreciated his analysis of the root causes of our current (relative) technological stagnation, including the centralization and bureaucratization of research funding, the growing burden of regulation, and the rise of an anti-technology, anti-industry counterculture. See my full review for more.
The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations That Transform the World, by David Deutsch.
A work of philosophy, mostly epistemology, with a bit of quantum physics thrown in. The theme is that all problems are solvable—“anything not forbidden by the laws of nature is achievable, given the right knowledge”—but that there is no end of problems or solutions, just as there is no end to knowledge or to mistakes. In contrast to both skepticism and “inductionism”, Deutsch promotes “fallibilism”.
I found this book fascinating and agree with much of it, although I disagree with many formulations, especially around induction and the base of knowledge. That said, it was one of those books where, even though I felt that I knew many of the points before I read them, I have found that the formulations have stuck with me, such that I am continually referring to the book and suggesting it to others. I particularly liked his identification that solutions always create new problems, which we meet with new solutions. Often people complain that a given solution created new problems, as if that is an indictment of the solution; when I encounter that argument, I now point them to Deutsch and explain that that is the nature of solving problems.
Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress, by Steven Pinker.
The message of this book is that reason, science and humanism—which Pinker identifies as the key themes of the Enlightenment—have, historically, led to massive progress in almost every area of life, and that they are our best means of continuing this progress into the future. But these ideals are not consistently upheld, and are often under attack. Therefore, we need to fortify and defend them.
I think history is the empirical foundation—where we get the case studies and the data from. That’s why, when I wanted to understand progress, I started by studying how it has actually happened, and indeed before I even asked “how” I just tried to figure out what happened.
Quantifying is good if/when you can do it appropriately. But make sure the thing you are measuring can actually reasonably represent the concept you are trying to study.
In general, go deep on whatever you’re studying and really get into the details. Your ratio of case studies to grand theories should be like 3–5 to 1.
On understanding vs. rhetoric:
There are both factual questions and ideological ones (or perhaps a spectrum). The factual questions include: how does progress happen, what are the mechanisms and causes, how can we measure it? The ideological questions include: is progress actually good, and can humanity have any agency over progress in the future?
Both are necessary and important, and I think the answers reinforce each other. The motivation for studying the factual questions is the conviction that progress is good and we can make more of it if we try. Conversely, when you honestly study the history of progress I think you can’t help but conclude that it has been very good for humanity and that its legacy is worth defending.
However, there is a trap here: promoting any ideology can put you in “soldier mindset.” Rather than honestly consider counterarguments, you can start to shut your ears, dig in your heels, and fight.
So, I think we should hold ourselves to the highest epistemic standards. Keep an open mind, listen to criticism, steelman your opponents. Don’t let progress studies turn into a dogma.
Maybe talent sorting is also flawed in Australia, but isn’t it for a different reason? This post identifies lack of top universities in Germany as a reason, but as far as I know, Australia has clear top universities.
The general contours of the situation are the same. The programs that require the highest high-school exit grades are medical programs, so top students mostly self-select into medical programs at many different universities, rather than into subjects of interest to them at the top schools.
Knowledge and the Wealth of Nations by David Warsh is about the development of theories of economic growth, and in particular Paul Romer’s endogenous growth theory. Part a good overview of economic growth theories, part a history of economic thought, and part the specific story of how Romer developed and championed his model. A good popular introduction to endogenous growth and some of its competitors.
My book recommendation is Networks, Crowds, and Markets: Reasoning About a Highly Connected World by David Easley and Jon Kleinberg.
As the title implies, it’s a book about understanding the world using graph theory, network theory, and game theory.
What makes it exceptionally good is it being in the sweet spot between “popular science books” that don’t offer any interesting insights to someone who has any familiarity with these topics, and “advanced academic literature” where the insights are available only to those who have already studied the topic for many years.
Not only were the basic ideas fairly easy to understand, it also felt like each page had at least some insights that made me pause and think about their implications.
I also believe this to be of particular importance now, when networks are appearing as one of the leading candidates for the primary shape of society during this century. If networks were to become the primary shape, this book could help one better understand how to make the best out of it.
I first read this few years ago, but I am planning to read it again soon. After doing plenty of thinking and work on similar themes since then, I suspect I could gain even more out of it during the second read. So, even if you have read this before, you might also consider a second round with it.
In what way are networks the leading candidate for the shape of society in the 21st century in ways they aren’t in other centuries? It seems to me that network dynamics have always been essential in shaping society. Why are they uniquely important in the 21st century?
Not sure exactly, but there are some popular books I dislike. I read the first chapter of Dawn of Everything and was unimpressed. See Holden Karnofsky’s “book non-review”. Also, I tried to read Sapiens and I could not get through two chapters of it. C. R. Hallpike’s review captures my feelings about it.
Re methods of analysis, I am highly skeptical of cyclical theories of history (Turchin/cliodynamics).
But generally as long as you’re looking at data and other evidence, and applying logic, you should be able to discover some nugget of truth.
This is an interesting post, and the arguments make sense to me. Upvoted.
I did find one idea which is very popular in economics thinking that I want to push back on:
Some amount of time that the second group spent will have been duplicative and so wasted.
I claim none of the effort spent by the second group is wasted: all of the duplicative effort pays out as reduced time to understand (and therefore use) the discovery. In cases where two groups are very close, that amount of time is basically zero; in cases of multiple discovery it is actually zero. I strongly expect that having multiple groups with a good understanding of a discovery increases the likelihood of successfully getting to downstream discoveries, and I suspect it would disproportionately increase the likelihood of leapfrogging and branching into new areas as the multiple groups look to differentiate themselves.
Separately and not directly related to the post, I claim that situations of multiple discovery are the most valuable events for the study of progress, because they give us n>1 experiments in how much information is required to make the discovery in question. An example of what I mean here is that if the same thing was discovered three independent times, and we look at what each person or group knew when they made the discovery, then:
Stuff known by all groups tells us what is necessary
The group that knows the least stuff gives us an idea of what is sufficient
Stuff that one or more groups was wrong about can be either dismissed as irrelevant, or if another group had it right they could be compared to see what influence that part had on how far they got
The way the second point relates to the first is that I believe the analytical lens which looks at the efficiency of a single discovery—whence the duplicated effort is wasted idea—is fundamentally mistaken. A single discovery doesn’t make sense to me as a unit of analysis for this because they are not independent; they depend on the discoveries that came before them and are in turn depended on for later discoveries. If we shift from the abstract discovery level to concrete ones like steps in the chain of producing products, this becomes much more stark: what sense does it make to compare the efficiency of an automated truck in a Uranium mine to the efficiency of an additive in paint manufacturing? In order for the efficiency numbers to make sense we need the context of the process of which they are a part.
Turning at last back to the actual subject of the post—that the value of a discovery by a person or group should be considered in light of the duplicated effort—feels to me like carrying the the same frame of analysis one step farther and applying it to the groups in the research process. If we want to identify which groups we should look to for lessons on progress (which I realize was not identified in the post) then it feels like my intuitions about this point in the opposite direction of yours.
I think I’d agree that “most important century” is a twistier and more confused claim than first appears, but I think it’s ultimately dissatisfying because it’s a tautology, and we should not deny tautologies. They’re always true, and sometimes they’re even meaningful.
It is true for me that this is the most important century, in the sense that the most important thing is whatever thing I should be paying the most attention to and trying to affect. Ask me again in 200 years and I will probably tell you that the 23rd century is the most important century at that time. It will be an honest report. That’s what will be important to me then.
I don’t think there is any use for an objective, timeless sense of what is “important”. It should depend on the reference frame. Different people should find different things important. The denial of that, the striving for a monocausal, monofocal global discourse, has been causing many discursive and interpersonal problems, and might just be an artifact of a smaller and less connected human umwelt that we departed from long ago.
The more I think about this, the more I think there should not really be a distinction between Differential Progress and progress studies in general. When we study anything, we should always be thinking about how we should take agency over it. Knowledge is supposed to be used to improve the world.
Or… would a good paraphrasing be “applied progress studies”?
“Needs” might be too strong, but I think more people would be a good thing. More people means more ideas, more art, more science, more inventions, more innovations, more pushing the boundaries of knowledge and practice. If you define “genius” as 99.9999th percentile intelligence, then for every million people born, we get one new genius.
Indeed, there is an argument that we need continued population growth in order to keep up economic growth. The intuition for this, in brief, is that the more we advance, the broader and more challenging the technological frontier gets, and the more specialists we need working in R&D to push it forward. (See here for a take on this)
I have seen this kind of analysis before (e.g., this ACX post). There is something to it, but I think in most contexts, the absolute/total “impact” of an idea (using your terminology here) is more important/relevant than the counterfactual/incremental “value.”
There are a few contexts in which the counterfactual/incremental analysis is what you want, but I’m not sure what you learn from that beyond “it’s more valuable to work in neglected areas, rather than crowded ones, all else being equal.” That is a true and important lesson, but not one for which we need to redefine how we measure value.
Re “inventions which were not actually made for some time after they were technically possible” (aka “ideas behind their time”), see some of my recent commentary on this.
This is interesting. I guess I anecdotally have started doing this but my memory (like everyone’s) can be quite faulty/hazy. Maybe I’ll start keeping a running spreadsheet that I mark up as I read.
What concrete steps would you recommend someone do, if they’re interested in Progress Studies in general terms, and would like to contribute in some way, but don’t necessarily know how or have a directly relevant background? Other than the obvious steps of writing blog posts and posting here :)
Interesting essay. I think the idea of flexibility is good in general: for example, I know of a case where a scientific programmer position on an academic project cannot be properly filled because the salary is far below the market; this is well understood by the project leader but cannot be fixed due to strong regulations of fund allocation.
However, I’m wondering what would this model lead to for PhD students that want to stay in academia? Already in the current system, there are not enough tenure positions for everyone, in the Compton model it seems that there will be even fewer, which would discourage some amount of people from following an academic route.
So it’s unclear, to me at least, whether this would grow or shrink the number of academic jobs. The number of “budgetary shot callers” would shrink by a lot since far fewer professors would have a bank account/grant to direct. But many of these teams would still require PhDs to be doing real research.
To many, that sometimes sounds like a demotion. But I think that’s a knee-jerk way to look at it. You can liken many of the new roles to what it was like being one of the many many smart PhDs/professors who worked on something like the Manhattan Project or in the GE Lab. You had probably a sort of comparable amount of freedom since your mind was respected by your “bosses” and they let you explore how to find things out on your own, but you did your research while also productively working within a “team” rather than a loose collection of individuals with different goals entirely.
Of course there are certain jobs that PhDs currently do, such as writing software, that would probably be efficient to hand over to non-PhDs in many cases. But the whole operation would also work more efficiently with the unified budget and possibly have more money for PhD researchers as well. So I find it hard to tell whether jobs would be harder or easier to come by.
What is the role of geography and place in the future of progress?
There was the recent paper on “Why Britain? The Right Place (in the Technology Space) at the Right Time” looking at why Britain gained economic leadership during the Industrial Revolution. We have seen the agglomeration effects on innovation regions with Detroit in the 40′s and 50′s and Silicon Valley in the 1990s-2010s.
On the other hand we are seeing remote work and considerably high demand for it. Recent data on LinkedIn had 14% of jobs being listed as remote, but garnering 52% of the applications. IP commercialization is not limited to where it was developed.
He proposes 2 concepts, one is “articulated thalassography”, a measurement I’ve seen in fractal theory, comparing the length of the coast with surface of the country that can be reasonably defended... Another is “Mereuporia”, the capacity in a zone to have stable “realms” that compete strongly but can never win totally on the whole zone...
Both ideas push countries to stay stable, exchange much, innovate much, and prevent the creation of a sterile centralized empire.
The second author, cited David Cosande (and Isaac Asimov, and many others, including a post-Roman historian) : Philippe Fabry
In English there is only: “history of next century”, and “Rome from libertarianism to socialism: Ancient lessons for our time”
He has a more comprehensive theory of history (Historionomy), proposing that there have been 3 ages, with Mycenian empire, Roman Empire, and US Empire, evolving in spiraling cycles...
What he calls Civilization A was Greece, and now is Europe (before it was Cretan “palaces”), with dynamic states that from medieval period, move to a Renaissance, with each country making a national transition from medieval to monarchy then parliamentary democracy.
However, this transition is frozen during wars when the country is troubled… Britain with 100 years war, delayed French Revolution by 100 years, while it’s own process was not… it became the “thalassocracy” , having control over the commerce… WW1&WW2 (German national transition, which triggered Russian transition halted by Staline unexpected victory) propelled USA as the new Thalassocracy...
Being the Thalassocracy make you connected to many civilizations, attractive to innovators, demanding in innovation, and not afraid of innovations.
In Antiquity, Athens was the thalassocracy.
There is much more to say, but yes, geography, because of commerce and capacity to protect your land are key.
One of the reason of Russian psychology is that they were on the road of nomad warlords from Mongolia, regularly invaded… France on the opposite is a crossing but have good natural borders to hale. and England is an island. Ukraine was the door to Europe, where Polish empire installed Cossacks horsemen to block eastern invasions… guess what happened when someone attached them from the east ? (Note that the mass of fighter against nazis were Ukrainians and Belarussians)...
What is depressive with Fabry is that he predict the fate of US Empire is like Roman Empire, move from democracy to autoritarianism, then alone in his empire, with no competition, it will collapse like USSR, leading to a new middle age, allowing a new Renaissance, but with bigger-size civilization (guess à which scale)… risky colonization far from Civilization A… a new Thalassocracia...
The only things to do would be to store Alexandria Library in a very safe place, and promote a new Bysance Interesting theory...
The more transportation and communication technology advance, the more we conquer time and space, and the less they matter. However, they still matter a lot, and will for the foreseeable future. We would need something faster than supersonic airplanes, or some kind of very high-fidelity VR/telepresence, for the effect of distance to be negligible.
Emphasis on “foreseeable”—maybe something will happen that makes distance obsolete.
On the other hand, it can only do so as long as we stay on one planet. Once we go beyond Earth, the speed of light makes distances matter again. Even between here and the Moon, a ~2.5-second round trip delay makes real-time conversations awkward. Between here and Mars, the delay is measured in minutes, making even basic web browsing basically impossible. Once we become interstellar, we’re basically forking human civilization. So probably “place” will always matter.
I know this is a minor point of yours, but I think straightforward extensions of existing web technology could solve the problem of communication between Earth and Moon or Mars, at least when interactivity with another human on earth is not required. CDNs already cache a large % of media your browser downloads. The number of round-trips needed is an optimization target in modern web engineering, and e.g. HTTP/2 introduced many new improvements for that. Compute also can move closer to the user; one can imagine AWS opening a new region “mars-1” with most or all of the same services they offer on earth.
The challenge here may actually be achieving the bandwidth needed to proactively push most data on the internet to Mars. High bandwidth (like fiber between major data centers) helps achieve impressive latency on Earth; I have no idea how difficult or expensive it would be to achieve such bandwidth between Earth and Mars.
Live collaboration is of course harder and the solutions to those seem to be more on the product and process side. Long-form writing, Loom video/screen recordings, and general written-first culture is something remote-first companies rely on today.
I think the Earth–Mars communication problem is definitely solvable, and it makes sense that the solution would be built on top of existing web standards. But I think new solutions and new standards/protocols would need to be developed, and it would be less than straightforward—it will require real engineering. And no matter what the solution, the overall user experience will be different.
Enjoyed this a lot. I think more artwork on terrapunk would be excellent. I first encountered Solarpunk through artistic representations—I think something similar could very easily spread the human maximalism of terrapunk.
This is great, I feel like I finally have a mental model for understanding why movies are all franchises and reboots now!
Adam Mastroianni’s original post—and my previous take on this phenomenon—were pretty pessimistic about the state of creativity in our culture. But, for me anyway, understanding what’s happening through the lens of this mental model restores a lot of optimism. The big takeaway for me is that looking at the creativity of the top performing works in a field isn’t a good way to assess the creativity of the whole field.
When we see yet another big franchise installment or reboot topping the charts, it isn’t because the producers have just run out of ideas or are too risk averse to make good original art. The good art is still being produced, and more people than ever are able to access it. It just gets eclipsed (somewhat mechanically) by the huge network effects driving people to also consume the familiar franchises.
I see this most clearly in TV shows. Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Game of Thrones, etc. may not beat out American Idol and NCIS in the ratings, but they’re still out there for tons of people to enjoy. And I would bet that a lot of people watch both the critically acclaimed original TV shows and the less creative franchises, for slightly different reasons. One more to enjoy the art itself and to talk about with a more close-knit community, the other for the wider communal experience (plus sometimes you just want to zone out and not pay as much attention to the TV anyway).
I think this argument may apply to science as well, though this is less clear to me. I could see, for example, scientists citing an older, fundamental paper just to acknowledge the intellectual landscape they’re operating in, while also citing newer, more creative work that is more relevant to their own work. This process would lead to the ossification of the top citations that you point out, without necessarily being a mark against the creativity of the field.
Thanks! I think there is also a pessimistic read, which is that these dynamics affect the direction of cultural creation; specifically, commercial creators will be pulled towards doing franchise-like work for anything expensive. Original and outlier work will have to happen on smaller budgets, where a smaller return can justify the investment. Whereas we used to get “expensive + original”, now we’ll probably have to content ourselves with “cheap + original.”
That’s a good point. It seems potentially relevant that TV seems to have been most exempt from this trend (with all the “Golden Age of TV” discourse over the last decade or so), and TV is probably the one medium where financial results are furthest downstream from the production itself. There’s a lot tighter feedback loop between a movie’s popularity and its profitability than there is with a TV show. Maybe there’s a lesson in there for how to promote creativity in other domains, but I’m not sure.
If the “growing burden of knowledge” is a major contributing factor, evaluating the efficacy of various teaching methods may prove fruitful. Perhapsacademiais ignoring quicker ways to scale the mountain.
Personally, I would put it towards the mission of The Roots of Progress, which is to to establish a new philosophy of progress for the 21st century. As I wrote in an announcement a few months ago:
The new philosophy of progress needs a movement to establish it. The pillars of this movement are:
Intellectual foundations: a lot of research, thinking, and writing, to better understand and communicate the lessons of progress, and to apply them to the problems of today and the opportunities for tomorrow.
Community-building: events, forums, meetups, and conferences for the progress community to exchange ideas, forge relationships, and start projects.
Cultural outreach: from school curricula, to inventor biopics, to sci-fi that paints a positive vision of the future.
Which research areas would you be most excited to support to accelerate progress (energy comes to mind, open to many more for funding via https://www.molecule.to/ and https://www.bio.xyz/), and which “applied metascience” seems most useful beyond new institutions for funding r&d such as PARPA, FROs?
Have you read Ada Palmers Terra Ignota series? If so what do you think? If not then consider giving it a try, the setting and philosophy are relevant to this movement!
What do you think about the idea that declining construction of new housing (especially in cities), deurbanization during the late 20th century, and the general trend in the US toward sprawling and expensive car-centric suburbs are core parts explanation for the present stagnation of progress?
1. I started reading Too Like the Lightning but haven’t finished. Love the flying cars though!
2. I see declining housing construction as primarily a symptom rather than a cause of an economic slowdown, although there are reciprocal effects and housing shortages can exacerbate stagnation.
I am not against sprawling suburbs, I think they are actually where a lot of people want to be (especially families with young children). Similarly, I am not against cars. I do suspect that something went wrong with city design when it comes to cars. One example is how we mix up streets and roads.
I’m interested in the role of education in progress, particularly childhood education. I believe that accelerating education and promoting early graduation of students is key for progress in many different domains chiefly by counteracting the burden of knowledge (https://www.frbsf.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2_BurdenOfKnowledge.pdf). I also believe that many people discount how much more efficient education could be made.
What are your thoughts on childhood (birth to around age 18) education as it relates to progress and do you know people involved with progress studies that are working on education?
I’m hoping to publish more of my thoughts on education as it relates to progress in the future. Do you personally have questions or thoughts on the relation between progress and education that you would like to see people explore?
Great topic. A few thoughts on the relationship between progress and education.
Historically, the most notable thing about education is that children now get a lot more of it. Global literacy rates were 12% in 1800 and 86% in 2016. Average years of schooling was 3.7 in the US in 1870, and is 13.4 years in 2017. A lot of this was driven by rising incomes: when families get wealthier, children don’t have to work, and the family can afford to send them to school.
This directly represents progress: it is better for individual well-being to be literate and have at least a basic education. It also drove progress: a more educated workforce can be more productive, and has more human capital for R&D.
However, this trend is largely tapped out. Now that most people go to school, and most are literate, there isn’t more much more progress to made on those dimensions. (You could even argue that we’ve gone a bit too far: too many people going to college, and spending too much money / taking on too much debt for it.)
Further, another notable thing about education is that we haven’t made much progress in how we teach or (as far as I can tell) in the quality of outcomes. (If anything, my impression is that outcomes have slipped.) Except for teaching more math and science, today’s public education is not that far from the one-room schoolhouses of the 19th century. Many more radical and innovative ideas have been proposed (e.g., Montessori), and have gotten some traction, but are still niches.
I’d love to hear from Montessorium/ Higher Ground Education. I have been following some of what they post online with great interest. I’ve also talked to Simone Collins a bit about The Collins’ Institute a while back and saw that Malcolm Collins spoke at the most recent Great Rethink in Education conference that Montessorium and Joe Connor put on.
I’ll also add that probably more people are focused on innovation in pedagogy than you may believe. Some of them end up fighting for clear, systematic explicit instruction in phonics which doesn’t feel very innovative because it’s an old, effective idea that was crowded out by some newer bad ideas. There are similar battles in mathematics pedagogy, music pedagogy, and more.
That said, we seem to agree there is need for more focus. And perhaps we agree that there needs to be more radical innovation.
Given recent events, are you concerned about progress studies being too closely associated with the Bay Area-centric Rationalist and Effective Altruism communities (even down to using the LessWrong software for this forum)?
I think the progress community has its own identity that is distinct from (if partially overlapping with) adjacent communities such as rationalism. For instance, I got interested in progress when I knew very little about rationalism and nothing about EA. The article that coined the term “progress studies” was published in The Atlantic, not on LessWrong.
Along the way, the communities discovered each other and found we had a lot of interesting things to talk about. But there is a set of motivations animating the progress effort that is original and not derivative of any contemporaneous movement.
I think the most important thing for us to do here is to focus first and foremost on the facts of reality that we think are most interesting, the goals and values that we think are most important, and the premises or principles that we think are most deeply true, and follow all that where it leads—with our relationship to any other intellectual communities or movements being a distant second.
I think that AI safety is a real issue. Many (most?) new technologies create serious safety issues, and it’s important to take them seriously so that we can mitigate risk. I think this is mostly a job for the technologists and founders who are actually developing and deploying the technology.
I think that “hard takeoff” scenarios are (almost by definition?) extremely difficult to reason about, and thus necessarily involve a large degree of speculation. I can’t prove that it won’t happen, but any such scenario seems well outside our ability to predict or control.
A more likely AI global catastrophe scenario, to my mind, is: Over the coming years or decades, we gradually deploy AI more and more as the control system for every major part of the economy. AI traders dominate financial markets; AI control systems run factories and power plants; all our vehicles are autonomous, for both passengers and cargo; etc. And then at some point we hit an OOD edge case that causes some kind of crash that ripples through the entire economy, causing trillions of dollars worth of damage. A complex system failure that makes the Great Depression look like a picnic.
In any case, I’m glad some smart people are thinking about AI safety up front and working on it now.
Without referring to other people’s views or research, do you have a personal intuitive point estimate or spread on when we will have AIs that can do all economically important tasks?
I dunno… years is too short and centuries maybe too long, so I guess I’d say decades? That is a very wide spread though.
And if you really mean all, I place non-zero probability on “never” or “not for a very long time.” After all, we don’t even do all economically important manual tasks using machines yet, and we’ve had powered machinery for 300 years.
I have a very technical question about the history of semiconductors. I’ve read long ago, that in the 20s Germanium conductance was a mystery, because of parasitic PN junctions caused by contamination and various metallurgical uncontrolled differences...
It seems that some researchers had observed PN diode effects, but also, unable to explain it, have kept the measurement in their drawer… Is there any serious report about that dark age of germanium PN junction ?
More generally, I would like to understand the really underground story of early semiconductors research, when it was an anomaly, impossible to repeat reliably because of missing theory and technology, not the final phase when theory and experiments had connected in the 40s.
Not sure about germanium specifically, but recall the dopants in silicon crystals could be identified by smell, machinists familiar with the smell of phosphorus lamps could identify n type based on this. Can’t find the original source but:
It is high up there! In fact, sometimes in interviews I’m asked whether there is an R&D priority that stands out, and multiple times I’ve named longevity. If you solve that, it gives you more time to solve all other problems.
The main reason I wouldn’t want to call it “#1” is because that implies some universal total ordering over all possible R&D avenues, and I don’t believe in that. Some things are more important than others, but, absent an imminent global catastrophe, I’m a pluralist about R&D priorities. People should work on whatever they have a unique vision for or are most passionate about, and far be it from me to discourage people who are working on nanotech, nuclear energy, space, AI, etc.
I want progress itself to be sustained, including sustained economic growth. Ultimately I want sustained, continuous increases in human well-being.
Typically today, the term “sustainable” means something else. It can mean sustaining the use of a particular technology or a particular infrastructure base, even if that means limiting growth. In this sense, usually, “sustainability” is the opposite of progress: to sustain is to stagnate.
No one can predict the future, but here are a few lines I wrote in a recent article:
Above all, we need a renewed vision of the future: a bold, ambitious, technological future, one that we want to live in and are inspired to create. A future of cheap, abundant, reliable, clean energy from nuclear fusion. A future where we return to space and create permanent settlements, both for recreation and for industry. A future where we cure diseases through genetic engineering. A future where we cure aging itself, giving everyone as many years of healthy life as they choose. A future where we don’t just end poverty, but create new levels of wealth so fantastic that they make today’s wealth look like poverty in comparison—just as was done over the last two hundred years.
Elaborating on that a bit, and extrapolating from some of the trends of the past, here are some thing I envision in a technologically and industrially advanced future:
Much higher labor productivity, so that we all earn more rewards for a given effort.
As a consequence, much higher levels of average wealth, to the point where the average person can afford what today are considered luxuries: a large home with high-quality furnishings, a private jet (or flying car), a butler and a nanny (robotic of course), meals without cooking (maybe through nanotech synthesizers), tailored clothing (ditto), etc.
Further, there will be benefits to the average person that are unavailable today even to the super-wealthy: the elimination of cancer and heart disease, vacations to the Moon and Mars, personalized entertainment on demand via AI, etc.
As another consequence, leisure time will increase. The work week will shorten, vacations and holidays will increase, retirement will begin earlier, more people will take a gap year between school and work, more people will take “funemployment” time off in between jobs, etc.
There will be more opportunities for people to find meaningful, engaging, fulfilling work, rather than manual or routine jobs. Or, if we don’t really need to work anymore, people will find engaging and fulfilling hobby projects to occupy their time.
As population grows and people become more and more connected, there will be more opportunities for people to self-organize into niche communities. There will be more opportunities to find friends, colleagues, and romantic partners who share your values and worldview. More generally, there will be more opportunities for individuality and self-expression.
This is a fantastic write-up, and I would like to see more like it.
I always enjoy seeing love lavished on important intermediate artifacts, like a particular paper, or particular tool, or particular storytelling technique. For papers in particular I would love to see piles and piles more highlights, walkthroughs, and appreciation of great papers across all fields.
Expanding on the “Youth and freedom” idea a bit: My dad was a musician, and always said that most bands’ best albums were their first ones. He figured the bands had been thinking about, refining, and practicing those songs for years and years before even having an opportunity to make an album. Then their first album looks like this singular piece of great work, but it was really the culmination of all the years of toiling in obscurity.
I think there could be something similar going on with at least some of these scientists and their miracle years. They spend all their early years thinking deeply about the problems that interest them, without knowing how to put the pieces together into a solution. Then maybe a new insight or mental model allows them to put everything together and unlock the ideas all at once. So the miracle year is like a band with a great first album: years worth of work coming together once the conditions were right to finally make it happen.
(I guess this is maybe a combination of the “Youth and freedom” and “Right problem at right time” ideas?)
Yeah, I came here to make the same comment. It seems like the main possible dimension Dwarkesh doesn’t cover. With bands there are lots of examples of great first albums that contain all or much of the bands’ best work, and lots of stories about those people writing those songs starting 5 or sometimes even 10 years before the band’s first album was recorded.
I’ll wager that the same thing applies with scientists, even though the tasks are different. When Newton or Einstein or Darwin was younger, each perhaps had versions of many of their famous ideas already in their heads. At age 5, primitive versions, perhaps, but look, Darwin was clearly a guy who was obsessed all his adult life with the endless forms of living beings, so my best guess is he was asking the adults Why Why Why about those same subjects even when he was a small boy.
You spend your childhood thinking about these things, and also slowly picking up the mathematical and investigational tools you’ll need.
Importantly, when you get to be about 20, you also get to the point where people start taking you seriously. And then you publish and have a great year.
Another thing that happens all of a sudden when you get to be about 20: You go to Cambridge for the first time, and there are other people there, both professors and colleagues, who can tell you a lot of new stuff you didn’t know—fresh ideas. Perhaps your ideas in response to it are rapid. Perhaps they have a strong and immediate positive influence.
The careers of Nietzsche and Mozart are counter examples to what you guys are saying. Both of them were prodigies and had very productive careers. They produced their most excellent works at a very rapid frequency just before they tragically went crazy/died.
My own sense is that, yeah the Success brings obligations section is most of it. To add to that: It takes about 10 times as long to realize a design or to propagate or empirically validate a theory, than it does to conceive it, and the one who conceived it is often best positioned to do that work.
Relevant Scott Alexander blogposts: Is Science Slowing Down? (miscellaneous data and discussion) and The Low-Hanging Fruit Argument (suggesting that a low-hanging fruit model can largely explain science getting harder, and giving empirical cruxes for this model).
I’m sure there are many changes to publishing/conferences that have been positive over the last 50 or so years. And I’d love to hear about those, too? But I’m primarily curious in what things we used to do pretty well that you think we’ve lost. If we come upon anything interesting I’d be happy to do a fleshed out research piece on it at some point.
(Your link to Public education as share of GDP seems to be recursive to this post.)
Really good questions. I also wish there was better historical data, including for the many centuries of history where the one-room-schoolhouse/tutorial method dominated. Very hard to say how many people attended school in Ancient Greece, the proportion of those people relative to various demographics, or even just how big schools were.
Quick and very incomplete tidbits off the top of my head, from a combination of pitch decks and my history of education class:
something like 70% of children > 5 and < 18 in the US were in public primary schools as early as 1880
the delta between that and present numbers is largely about the expansion of high school attendance
pre-20th c. US public education spending was something on the order of a thousandth of a percent of today’s spending (after adjusting for today’s dollars)
today there are about 100k public schools and 30k private schools in the US, and those numbers have been steady for a couple of decades
today roughly 1 in every 1000 adults in the US is a professional teacher in primary or secondary education
Early adopter influence is one in some cases, I think when the tech plays a part in providing infrastructure, perhaps also elsewhere.
Kelly talks about crypto, and this is my motivating example here:
Today, though decentralised in name, most of the biggest organisations in crypto are controlled by tiny groups of people, typically single digits (for the orgs where voting takes place on the blockchain, you can verify this yourself).
Such concentration isn’t really a problem when a space is small, like crypto is today (relatively: <1 million active users by far; etc). But it becomes significant when the tech becomes widely adopted. For example, Ethereum, the most important blockchain right now, is de facto (could argue de jure) controlled by Vitalik Buterin. If trillions of dollars of industries are moved onto Ethereum (like, perhaps the $14tr securities mkt), then that becomes problematic (specially if people less socially-minded then Vitalik are influential!)
New infrastructure technology creates new elites from the people who were there first. I suppose trains are a historic example. That concentration of power only comes when blockchain works really well, but it can be problematic
I suspect the problem comes when these new elites attempt to reframe society. This necessarily causes instability and can block better improvements, even if this reframing is an improvement on the status quo
I wouldn’t say that “inequality” alone would be a risk category, but more specifically inequality that leads to future brittleness or fragility, as in your example.
Basically in this case it’s path dependant and certain starting conditions could lead to a worse outcome. This obviously could be the case for AI as well.
As I was writing that post, I was thinking in the back of my mind about this distinction:
Operational safety: safety from things that are already happening, where we can learn from experience, iterate on solutions, and improve safety metrics over time
Development safety: safety from new technology that hasn’t been developed yet, where we try to mitigate the harms ahead of time, by theoretical models of risk/harm, or by early small-scale testing ahead of deployment, etc.
Most recently, I’ve seen speculation of notable improvements for the Future of Cities in regards to WFH trends. 1.) In-person jobs move to center of cities and residents expand to the edges 2.) traffic congestion significantly drops and 3.) Real Estate prices substantially fall in core areas. (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jue.2021.103331)
It seems to me that that pushing WFH and the technology that enables it should be high on the list of priorities for the Future of Cities, especially with #3; falling real estate prices in urban areas may somewhat ease housing crises for the workers that have no choice but to remain working in-person in core urban areas (service, manufacturing, healthcare, etc).
I think the biggest benefit is globalizing the talent market. The more remote work we have, the more companies can hire from the entire global talent pool, and workers can choose from the entire global set of employers. That is a vast labor market expansion.
Great essay! And clearly you put your elbow grease in to make it flow and feel right rhetorically. Mwah. That catalogue of hurdles was very well thought out.
I have one comment on the following:
“If it were, say, a millwright, he would have to learn enough about machines to go beyond the kinds that he had been taught to make through apprenticeship, and invent something entirely new. Where would this knowledge have come from?”
I was just listening to Esther Duflo talk about mathematics ability and difference between street kids who sell produce and students in school. The 10 year old math practitioner in the streets can solve very complex practical problems involving two divisions, an additions, and a subtraction quickly with a high degree of accuracy. But in the study which ratcheted up the abstraction layers of the question to the practitioners, they quickly fell off as the questions became more abstracted out (even when given monetary incentive to solve the problem!).
Similarly students in school weren’t able to climb down the ladder from abstraction to application. And when they tried, they needed pen and paper and took 10 minutes to figure it out.
This study once again indicates the difficulty of transfer. What is learned in one area only with conscious and deliberate practice can be applied to another.
But another more subtle takeaway is possible, namely that the vast majority of millwrights don’t engage in philosophical abstraction of the art of millwrighting, hunting for foundational and transferable principles to other fields. You present it as a ‘knowledge problem’. Perhaps we can get even more precise. It’s that millwrights don’t teach their apprentices general principles, because they themselves never did formulate explicit general principles about machines. Until there are general principles, there are few inventors. It’s a science problem. Technique without science is sterile.
The Hamming Principle: Archimedes requires Euclids, not Euclids Archimedes.
An exception to the theory that “Safety is properly a goal of progress” is the research and development for the military. One could argue that guns, tanks, and drones are begin developed to protect the citizens of the country but by causing harm to the opposing faction. I guess it could be rephrased as ” Safety of the consumer/user/beneficiary is a goal of progress”. It is pedantic at best. The development of nuclear weapons opens a whole new can of worms, where one can argue that each country must develop the weapons for its own security. In either case, as you mentioned risks of these technologies must be determined and mutually agreed upon as policy in a democratic setup (which includes technocrats, politicians, and civil society) before proceeding with development.
I think this flows directly into why it seems intuitive that new ideas are getting harder to find. For example, all the obvious ideas in mobile apps were explored as businesses from 2005~2015, and it’s hard to think of a genuinely new mobile app concept that isn’t just a variation on an established business.
If you were trying to, say, disrupt the taxi industry using computer technology in 1998, you would run into a big lack of infrastructure. Would people request a taxi from a website? Then people couldn’t request a taxi without visiting a place such as a PC cafe. There would be no way to process payments. There would be no way to track drivers using GPS—which did exist, but there were no internet-connected wireless GPS devices. In fact, how would you communicate with the drivers? By cell phone? Would you hire human dispatchers? What’s the value add on top of phone-dispatched taxis then?
Clearly, there was a right time to start a computer-enhanced taxi service, and that time was 2005~2015. By 2015, the idea had been had.
Yes, I agree. But note that new breakthrough technologies open up whole new fields of ideas that are suddenly “easy to find”—as per your very example. So another way to look at the question is what affects the rate of growth in new fields.
If and when it makes sense to halt or ban R&D, the ban should be either narrow or temporary.
I think the counterexample of nuclear engineering is instructive. It was not halted, but remains heavily regulated internationally, and for that reason, progress in nuclear power has been greatly slowed—but so has proliferation.
It was halted de facto if not de jure, at least in the US.
I think if it had not been stunted, we’d have lots of cheap, reliable, clean nuclear power, and I doubt that nuclear proliferation would have been significantly accelerated—do you think it would have been?
There’s a reasonable argument that we all lose out by calling programmers software engineers, given they lack the training in forensic analysis, risk assessment, safety factors engineering, and identifying failure modes that other engineering disciplines (i.e. civil, mechanical, materials, electrical) have to train in.
A lot of energy in the AI safety conversation goes into philosophizing and trying to reinvent from scratch systems of safety engineering that have been built and refined for centuries around everything from bridges to rockets to industrial processes and nuclear reactors, and we are worse off for it.
This is good. I would like (and was expecting to read) some more explicit discussion of exaggerated safety demands, which is sometimes called “safetyism.” Clearly the idea that demands for safety shouldn’t hamper progress and quality of life too much is present in this essay (and in much of progress studies in general), but it feels weirdly unacknowledged right now.
This (and part 2, which maybe isn’t on the forum yet?) were really interesting, thanks. Pairs well with American Genesis, which I am in the middle of.
Do you think engineering programs today are turning out students who aren’t suited to the needs of industry? My only first-hand experience here is with computer science graduates and professional software engineering. It’s true that software development in industry involves a bunch of learning and wisdom that you don’t get in school and only develop on the job—for instance, how to write code to deal with errors, how to monitor a web site/app for high availability, etc. It’s further true that the professors don’t teach the practical industry stuff because they don’t know it themselves, never having done it. I could see improvement in those areas. On the other hand, I’ve always felt that the formal education did provide something valuable and that learning the rest on the job worked fairly well.
If you haven’t already read the work of the late Aaron Wildavsky, I would highly recommend it because he devoted much of his life’s work to the exact issue you tee up here. I’d recommend two of his books to start. The first is Risk and Culture co-authored with Mary Douglas, and the second is his absolutely remarkable Searching for Safety, which served as the inspiration for my book on Permissionless Innovation.
Here are a few choice quotes from Risk and Culture:
“Relative safety is not a static but rather a dynamic product of learning from error over time. . . . The fewer the trails and the fewer the mistakes to learn from, the more error remains uncorrected.” (p. 195)
“The ability to learn from errors and gain experience in coping with a wide variety of difficulties, has proved a greater aid to preservation of the species than efforts to create a narrow band of controlled conditions within which they would flourish for a time… “(p. 196)
“If some degree of risk is inevitable, suppressing it in one place often merely moves it to another. Shifting risks may be more dangerous than tolerating them, both because those who face new risks may be unaccustomed to them and because those who no longer face old ones may be more vulnerable when conditions change.”(p. 197)
And then in Searching for Safety, Wildavsky went on to build on that logic as he warned of the dangers of “trial without error” reasoning, and contrasted it with the trial-and-error method of evaluating risk and seeking wise solutions to it. Wildavsky argued that wisdom and safety are born of experience and that we can learn how to be wealthier and healthier as individuals and a society only by first being willing to embrace uncertainty and even occasional failure. I’ve probably quoted this passage from that book in more of my work than anything else I can think of:
“The direct implication of trial without error is obvious: If you can do nothing without knowing first how it will turn out, you cannot do anything at all. An indirect implication of trial without error is that if trying new things is made more costly, there will be fewer departures from past practice; this very lack of change may itself be dangerous in forgoing chances to reduce existing hazards. . . . . Existing hazards will continue to cause harm if we fail to reduce them by taking advantage of the opportunity to benefit from repeated trials.”
In my next book on AI governance, I extend this framework to AI risk.
Ah, thanks, I have read a little bit of Searching for Safety in the past, but had forgotten about this.
I largely agree with this approach. The one problem is when dealing with catastrophic risks, you can’t afford to have an error. In the case of existential risk, there is literally no way to learn or recover from mistakes. In general the worse the risk, the more you need careful analysis and planning up front.
Agreed, Jason. I’ll add that it’s trendy among the longtermists to speak of biosecurity, but it seems obvious to me that the FDA, not the legality of admittedly dangerous research, is the biggest obstacle to genuine biosecurity. We could have had vaccines for Covid by spring 2020, and without Eroom’s Law we might have had them by January 2020. And we could have had strain updates in real time. So an agency that was designed to make us safe made us less safe, and many people focused on safety in this domain continue to miss the forest for the trees. Often arguments about safety are problematic because of these kinds of failures, not because safety isn’t a valuable form of progress (it is).
I found myself nodding along to most of this and really appreciate the positive vision and integration of safety and progress. Two critical comments:
In the last section you basically assert an alternative to the supposed progress/safety tradeoff, one which I prefer. But it left unanswered (and even unasked) a lot of the live questions I have about this topic. It seems like there are broader cultural patterns of (a) overblowing or even completely manufacturing risks, and (b) decreasing our tolerance for risk in a way that is less than intentional. And these often seem like the major source of objections to a pro-progress approach!
Second: there’s also a moral dimension to safety. I doubt if there’s are processes that completely safeguard us from nuclear war, absent enough good people to maintain and man those processes. Our moral excellence in ongoing mastery of the natural world just does demand that we stop lagging in our mastery of ourselves; insofar as that lag is getting worse, that’s a risk that’s probably irreducible.
A few comments. I like the basic idea, but he article seems too fawning and just does not provide enough of a Scylla and Charybdis of where “safety” goes right and where it can go wrong. The hidden context, I believe, is the high-profile catalyzing exposure of x-risk and longtermist ideas to the broader public.
Here are less than a few thoughts on some of your statements.
“Safety is properly a goal of progress.”
Certainly safety is not properly a goal of progress, any more than seatbelt is a goal of fast transportation. Safety is one method of achieving progress by reducing risks, costs, or “the error rate.”
“We’ve made a lot of progress on these already, but there’s no reason to stop improving as long as the risk is greater than zero.”
The law of diminishing returns applies to safety as to everything else. It’s precisely when people talk about the safety as though “every little bit helps” that we get nonsensical regulation, unnecessarily high costs, disastrous environmental review, IRBs which kill social science. There must be reasonable way of deciding which risks must continually be decreased and which we can and should live with. Safety can be cudgel against progress, even though it can also be a helpmate of it.
“Being proactive about safety means identifying risks via theory, ahead of experience, and there are inherent epistemic limits to this.”
This point is good and could use expansion. What are the limits? When are they greater and when are there lesser epistemic limitations?
“This should be the job of professional “ethics” fields: instead of problematizing research or technology, applied ethics should teach technologists how to respond constructively to risk and how to maximize safety while still moving forward with their careers.”
I don’t know what it means to “problematize research”, research seems problem-ridden already. But also this comment seems to contradict an earlier point where you stated that engineers are best situated to work on the safety of the systems they build. Which is it? The engineers or the ethicists?
I have a bioethicist on my team, and I think he’s invaluable because he offers a coherent method for thinking through ethical problems (especially end of life issues and informed consent issues). But it’s important to recognize that his particular method is dependent, as all ethical systems are, upon a particular metaphysics, to use a dirty term loathed by most ethicists. Not that we have to wait for everyone to have the same metaphysics to work on big safety or big progress—we could never do anything in that case. For in that case, we’d be stuck like Russ Roberts, in his articles against utilitarianism, unable to judge whether free trade is worth the cost of one person’s workforce participation. But metaphysics does offer some guidance about tradeoffs we should and shouldn’t make by providing useful if, sometimes vague, definitions of human life, human flourishing, human moral responsibility. There are real differences between people on these definitions, which lead to very different ethical conclusions about which tradeoffs we should and should not make. Indeed, how much safety we should invest in is informed by our metaphysical and meta-ethical assumptions.
I think trained ethicists with an engineering or medical degree are extremely helpful. In our space that’s a minority opinion. But, like having a lawyer well-versed in case law, the excellent ethicist can quickly see different implications and applications of a process, and be able to provide advice on potential pitfalls, low-cost safety features, and mis-applications that were not immediately obvious consequences.
I am curious how we can use the theory of AI Safety (although it is still in its formative stages) to address safety and progress. Progress safety seems very important, it could be approached from policy level or exploratory engineering. Perhaps there is an overlap between AI safety and Progress safety. Overall, very intriguing idea to think about , looking forward to the full comment.
It seems to be related with moral uncertainty, that is, when trying to understand whether to pursue a technology that has a possibility of existential risk but has positive externalities that outweigh the hazards, do you choose to pursue it or not.
This was interesting, thanks. Totally agree that plastic is underrated, and that materials in general are underappreciated.
I would love to hear more of the history of how plastic was developed, and to understand better what all the different types of plastic are and how they relate to each other.
Synbio is a likely source of new materials; also nanotech?
I do see synbio as the most promising source of new materials with a huge range of properties, scalable manufacturing, and ability to come down cost curves amongst other tailwinds. Graphene, as an example of perhaps a nanotech material, is also scaling well in an array of uses after surviving a hype cycle. Metamaterials are talked about a lot, but seems like we’re still earlier in their commercialization from my limited understanding of them.
On the history of the development of plastics, this is thorough and one of the better resources I’ve found. It’s a 20 part series of articles (and counting since last I checked). I’ve linked all of them here as the url path naming convention is inconsistent.
Another future potential to consider is atomically precise manufacturing—true “nanotech”, rather than simply nanomaterials—which could allow some really incredible possibilities such as manufacturing or construction with diamond. See Where Is My Flying Car?
True atomic scale manufacturing is definitely an exciting future tech! One angle from some proponents of cell-free catalysis is that enzymes is a path to atomic scale manufacturing and assembly. For example, Aether Bio has nano-manufacturing in the spirit of what you are saying as their vision.
In our survey of the scientists who received Fast Grants, 78% said that they would change their research program “a lot” if their existing funding could be spent in an unconstrained fashion.
Thanks! I like this answer a lot since it suggests a nice/easy quantitative version of the question:
If your existing funding could be spent in an unconstrained fashion, what fraction of grant dollars would you spend significantly differently?
I think this scales between 0% (== fully aligned) and 100% (==totally different) research in a pretty straightforward way.
It only captures the “grant dollars” part of the original question (and not, e.g., deciding on a specialization in order to get a better chance at a tenure track position, or changing research in order to get a higher chance of getting past journal reviewers), but that’s still pretty valuable.
Economic goods (things of which more is preferred to less) don’t have to be tangible things made of atoms and we’re still confused on how to think about growth and utility, or at least I am. So I agree that the value-per-atom intuition isn’t reliable.
the size and comfort of homes and their amenities (heating and A/C, water and sewage, electricity, gas)
the availability and variety of fresh, nutritious food
the quantity and quality of possessions that the average person has (clothes, electronics, tools, jewelry, sporting equipment, etc.)
the opportunity to work a good job and to avoid excessive or harsh manual labor or other working conditions, and to have leisure time (including leisure for children in school, and the elderly in retirement)
the ability to travel with speed, convenience, and comfort
the ability to communicate for business or socializing
access to knowledge, entertainment, art and culture
If (all else being equal) there is an improvement in any of those factors or similar factors, then living standards have been raised.
The typical metric used to measure living standards is GDP per capita. GDP doesn’t exactly correspond to or capture quality of life, but it’s the best metric we have, and it tends to be highly correlated with other quality-of-life metrics such as life expectancy or literacy rates.
Thank you for this thoughtful comment, and many apologies for the delayed reply.
I’ve worked through some thoughts, and I’m very eager to hear (from you or anyone else) whether I’m “onto something.”
From my reading, progress studies defines progress as advancement that raises standards of living.
My ‘challenge’ (that is, a complicating notion that I think gets us somewhere helpful): notions of progress are intrinsically normative; they describe what types of lives people ought to live. Consider:
“the quantity and quality of possessions that the average person has (clothes, electronics, tools, jewelry, sporting equipment, etc.”
Who cares about electronics? Only a highly electronically-minded society, and a community that views access to electronics as a pre-requisite for a meaningful life. Those assumptions in turn assume shared values: that global connectivity or access to labor are intrinsically enriching. (More likely, they are conducive to continuing or accelerating progress as we view it).
The best work I’ve found on these questions is the theory of capabilities Amartya Sen and Martha Nussbaum developed over many years of collaboration. Capabilities describe “things you can do.” In understanding ‘development’ (in the sense of ‘developing country’, (an area of concern with many tendrils in progress theory), Sen and Nussbaum ask first: what do people want to do? What kinds of lives do they want to live? As they phrase it, a capability approach to development focuses on enhancing individuals’ capability of achieving the kind of lives they have reason to value.
So: what is the good life? Progress Studies has not examined this question as rigorously as it might. Notions of progress work relative to the capabilities that progress aims to (or is imagined to) create. Here’s a worked example. I often hear, “the Apollo mission was kind of a waste.” But progress, at the Apollo mission’s time, meant allowing people progress toward some future in which the moon is an American suburb (see: any media of the time). I imagine space colonies seemed more important when nuclear war might have rendered the earth uninhabitable. The Apollo mission looked exactly like progress at its time, seemed perfectly reasonable to pursue. Now, what we mean by progress has changed, but we have yet to notice, in part because we have not yet defined the specific capabilities we have aimed progress toward.
I have reason to believe there is contestation here. From my highly informal sample of well-educated people in the Bay Area, for some, space colonies seem to represent progress; for others, an inhabitable and less technological earth seem to represent progress. These two, highly local cultural communities have different views of what progress is. My theoretical challenge is: Progress Studies ought to be able to explain why two communities can view progress differently, and do so in its own terms; that is, in a theory that adequately defines what progress is.
To make progress toward this theoretical challenge, my general research question would be: What can we learn about progress by discussing the capabilities progress imagines itself to create?
Some methods I’ve pondered: - We might begin by making implicit discussions within Progress Studies explicit (e.g., discourse analysis). - We might discuss how communities decide what capabilities they want to create. - We might do historical analysis to see how progress has been understood historically in the recent (50 year) to ancient (1,000+ year) past.
What do you (and the rest of the forum) think?
EDIT: If I’ve missed germane literature/posts in my characterizations here, please point me toward them.
This is an excellent subject area with a ton of material—especially because so many 19th and 20th century social movements were so deeply tied with notions of social, economic, and technological progress, and often sought to use novel technologies to drive revolutionary change. In many cases, solidarity and freedom from hardship were seen as going hand-in-hand with modernity and industrialization.
Thanks for sharing your story. Although there are a lot of disability advocacy groups, progress studies is in a unique position in that it can detail technologies that enable people to live rich lives who otherwise would not be able to.
I would love a follow up article on the technologies that are most essential for your wife’s life and how they work both in the technical and socio-cultural sense.
This fascinating thread on the EA forum provides some really interesting data on the relationship between GDP growth and happiness.
I think certain types of innovation clearly cause an immediate increase in human welfare (ie medical advances, longevity increases, ways to decrease various forms of risk that lead to more safety), but other than these particular categories of goods, I think we reached a point of saturation where better material goods are of negligible marginal welfare value. Despite this, changes to social dynamics (ie things that cause less socialization, increase greater inequality, increase status desires like instagram) can cause a loss of welfare. My model is that pursuing progress in material goods may lead to social costs. Specifically, if the increase in material innovation/decrease in costs provides negligible welfare value but the social impact provides real costs, people will feel worse off (and be right!).
I want people to aspire to be wealthier so we can have more demand for progress and subsequently, more progress. It’s very tricky to think of ways to increase one’s wealth that isn’t then lost to relative status games. IE if you provide everyone with an extra $20,000 per year, I suspect it will increase aggregate costs (lost to cost disease) by $20,000 per capita and leave the overwhelming majority of people in very similar positions.
I think its very challenging to think of subsidies to welfare that aren’t immediately then lost through status competitions (and are actually feasible to implement).
I love Stubborn Attachments and think its point about Wealth Plus is true. Unfortunately, Stubborn Attachments does not attempt to grapple with what is included in Wealth Plus and what policies we should pursue to increase it. There is a lot of evidence in support of what actions people can take to improve their quality of life; unfortunately, for various reasons, it is very challenging for governments to come up with policies that improve human welfare.
I think it would be worthwhile for more people in this community to brainstorm possible ways to connect progress with perceptible benefits in welfare. The only one I can think of is connecting wealth/gdp to hours worked. I think in a future where these cycles are reinforcing, there will be much more demand for progress.
I would like to understand what the biggest advantages of the h-index are. It seems to me the advantages are that it balances quantity and quality.
Let’s try the opposite for a decade or two. A measurement strategy that gives high weight to quantity or quality.
Here are some ideas, likely bizarre for reasons others will eagerly point out.
S-index = |N-log(C)|^log(C)
N = number of topics written on as measured by Milojević 2015 or more simply the unique keywords used by the journals to describe the article.
C = total citations.
That formula is a response to Matt Clancy’s paper on innovation getting harder. He points out that the number of topics is slowing down. So the incentive under this paradigm to work either on unique topics or on a few topics intently.
Another idea is to think that as science slows down groups and coalitions are becoming more important.
So here is a second idea, almost certainly terrible.
Average h-index of self and all co-authors. This would be something like a measure of the h-strength of one’s network but gives no reward for the size of the network. One effect might be that it encourages strong research networks, which would have pros and cons, granting more freedom to the more productive clusters but making social life more important.
As should be obvious by my initial post I am in complete agreement that the demand side of the equation is underrated (the supply side of progress may be more important, but most of existing discussion seems to focus solely on that).
I appreciate your 2nd point on shifting focus more to how people will directly benefit.
Another question this made me think of is what are the main reasons people don’t already see the benefits? Lack of imagination? Incremental innovation over long periods going unnoticed?
In The Moral Consequences of Economic Growth Benjamin Friedman deploys a lot of case studies of social progress and economic growth going hand in hand. Similarly, in Stubborn Attachments, Tyler makes a compelling case the GDP is greatly linked with human-wellbeing, but he also allows that there is more to well-being than the basket of goods that can be currently be purchased. He calls the total basket of goods Wealth Plus. So far so good.
I appreciate that what you do here is look for a way for economic growth to correlate with some level of social change, i.e. more vacation. As a first look, I think this style of thinking hold some promise. It is impossible to detail all the goods that humans choose to purchase or tradeoff against and create public policy around them. But perhaps we can formulate an account of Wealth Plus/ Human Flourishing that takes advantage of the correlation between wealth and wellbeing.
Well-being is likely multiplicative of several species of goods which tradeoff against each other, but are hard to exchange. I want to do more theorizing on this. The example of vacation days vs. productive work is interesting. Can you share more about your model of rival species of goods?
I agree with this. I am just getting into the ‘progress’ literature, and I find a lot of ideas with great practical value to me. That said, most seem to come from a very macro perspective. I’ve been working in the area of funding for 10 years and have made a lot of my own observations, almost all on the personal/relationship level. Things like shared culture/values are important because that can be what empowers people to take a leap together, and it’s especially magical when that culture (say of science) is shared among people who, in other aspects of their lives, do not share culture. Not sure there is a metric for that.
We need to talk more about pure, unadulterated human curiosity, generally summed up as the drive many (but not all) feel to ask and try to answer ‘how does our world work?’ There’s evidence that great scientists are low in the personality trait Agreeableness. So for those who promote the progress movement because of ‘advancing humanity’ (certainly a noble cause), how does that motivation empower a great scientist who ‘just’ wants to understand a physical process? Is it wrong that a person is not motivated by a social cause? If not, is it required that whoever is holding the purse strings assign an intended social benefit to the work?
How many progress studies involve speaking to researchers in longform interviews to hear what they need to do more/better and if the models being put forward jibe with their experiences? I welcome anyone pointing me towards work in this area, and I don’t mean this as a criticism of what’s been done. I think we need to build up other approaches at the same time this econ-based approach is developing. I’m willing to be part of doing that. I’m only about a week into reading so it will take some time to catch up before I can make any significant contribution, though I am also remembering to back grad school where the people studying the philosophy of science were some of the most intellectually intimidating people I ever met.
“Things like shared culture/values are important because that can be what empowers people to take a leap together, and it’s especially magical when that culture (say of science) is shared among people who, in other aspects of their lives, do not share culture.”
One dichotomy that might be useful is the distinction between invention and innovation.
Invention, as in the invention of the periodic table, the flying shuttle, and Euclidean geometry requires a set of conditions that foster freedom, unbridled curiosity, debate and play. Here taking a leap together to learn something new.
Innovation, as in taking an idea or invention and investing in it to make something real, profitable, or socially beneficial. Taking a leap together to get something done.
Not all progress comes from innovation, much of progress, perhaps even the most important types, come from invention and discovery. These are two sides of the same system, both necessary, like upper and lower teeth.
In the progress studies community, you can see this divide too. Some people are more purely interested in investigating how progress happens, others in making it happen. Two rows of teeth!
Good review. I was in the middle of reading the book itself when it came out, so I finished that first and just circled back to read your comments.
I appreciated the discussion of culture but thought it could have gone a bit deeper. They discuss the Republic of Letters, but the name Bacon does not appear anywhere in the book. And there are citations to Mokyr but not to Margaret Jacob (I guess because she’s a historian and not an economic historian).
On the question of human capital in the 2nd IR, you say “most people weren’t doing jobs that required more than rudimentary literacy and numeracy.” That’s true, but couldn’t the crucial difference have been made by a small minority of jobs that required advanced education? IR2 depended on electromagnetism (for both electrical power/lighting and electronic communications) and applied chemistry (Bessemer, Haber-Bosch, Bakelite, oil refining, synthetic dyes, pharmaceuticals, etc.) In fact, if you consider the public health improvements that were going on at the same time to be part of it (they were certainly a part of the overall increase in living standards), then it also depended on microbiology. So it seems hard to imagine how it could have happened without a number of researchers/engineers in all of these fields.
Historian’s perspective: the Industrial Revolution was primarily a supply-side phenomenon. Demand may have helped to geographically focus the concentration of new sectors, but technological change occurred because of the desire of producers to make things better and at lower cost, not because idiot peasants realized that cotton clothes were comfortable. Other factors—science, bourgeois/Protestant ethic, coal/raw materials, skills—are also supply side.
Neither necessity nor desire is the mother of invention!
Completely agree, and thank you for that perspective. It’s a bit of a “chicken vs. egg” problem in that sense, and it’s hard to think of anything that is completely supply or demand driven. It does seem like it’s more supply driven in general, although I’m happy to put attention on the demand side because I think it’s being neglected.
Agree with that last point. Both necessity and desire were around since the dawn of humanity. They didn’t create an Industrial Revolution by themselves.
(But you could argue that by the same token, producers also always had the desire to lower their costs / increase quality. It’s not just desire, but opportunity.)
Also, wasn’t there some significant demand-side stuff going on? Wasn’t there a general increase in wealth and consumption levels just before the IR, that was maybe significant in helping to create markets for more/better goods produced by the new manufacturing technology?
Yes, producers have always had the incentive to innovate, and yes, they have always tried to do so (even slave economies were “capitalist”). Only in certain institutional, cultural, and geographical contexts can they be successful. I also think base levels of scientific knowledge are critical (but Anton may disagree in some cases).
So, sort of. Everything is endogenous. Desmet and Parente argue that market expansion leads to longer firm production runs in differentiated goods and lower per unit fixed costs (thus process innovation). But why was there market expansion in the first place? Population growth and foreign trade? In the latter case, I’m going to be working on this for a long time yet. But it’s important to note that the UK TOT fell during the IR. Supply was outpacing demand in textiles.
Thanks for the Mokyr ref, had not read that one yet. You are truly an encyclopedia of the econ history literature!
Yes, I’m wondering about the market expansion too. Foreign trade does seem to be a part of it?
Related, see this from Anton Howes which I thought was very interesting (emphasis added):
One possible explanation is that there was some special change in England’s agricultural technology that increased its productivity, requiring fewer and fewer people, and possibly even driving them off the land, so that they were forced to find alternative employment. This thesis comes in various forms, many of which I’m still coming to grips with, but broadly speaking it implies a “push” from the fields, and into industry and the cities. Desperate, and unable to demand high wages, these cheaper workers should have stimulated industry’s growth.
The alternative, however, is that there was nothing very special or innovative about English agriculture, and that instead there was an even larger increase in the demand for workers in industry and services. The thesis implies a “pull” into industry and the cities, causing people to abandon agriculture for more profitable pursuits, and thereby making England’s agriculture de facto more productive — something that may or may not have actually been accompanied by any changes to agricultural technology, depending on how much slack there was in how the labourers or land had been employed.
The push thesis implies agricultural productivity was an original cause of England’s structural transformation; the pull thesis that it was a result. The evidence, I think, is in favour of a pull — specifically one caused by the dramatic growth of London’s trade.
General note: I find it remarkable how many major developments seem to ultimately trace back to either (1) the Age of Discovery or (2) the printing press. And I find it a remarkable coincidence how those basically happened at the same time.
Ha, I wish. Maybe a children’s illustrated encyclopedia.
Market expansion is definitely an interesting area for research here. Foreign trade shares in the economy were small, but in certain key sectors (i.e. textiles) it was pretty significant. But again, it’s important to unravel whether these markets can be considered A) additional demand or B) won by higher-quality / lower-cost production. That’s the story of the “New Draperies” in the 17th c. and cottons from the 18th.
Anton and I have chatted about this a lot, and I agree with most of this. “Labor push” is a thing, but more for 20th-century developing economies than for first-wave industrializers. See Alvarez-Cuadrado, Francisco, and Markus Poschke. 2011. “Structural Change Out of Agriculture: Labor Push versus Labor Pull.” American Economic Journal: Macroeconomics, 3 (3): 127-58.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head—the fifteenth century is critical in the formation of (early) modernity. David Wootton argues that the Age of Discovery invented the idea of discovery/novelty/invention, and I would love to investigate this idea further. Even beyond the technical challenges of navigation, the notion—which anyone can understand—that there are new things in the world outside the current bounds of human knowledge is critical for getting people to seek out and trust new technologies.
I believe the crucial importance of skilled mechanics, in part because of what I found when researching the threshing machine:
… the threshing machine was just past a certain threshold of the combination of the amount of force required and the delicacy of the operation. A loom is a somewhat complex machine performing an intricate process, but not one that uses a high degree of force. A flour mill, or a trip hammer at an iron works, is a high-force application, but not one that is particularly subtle or delicate. Both of these were in use long before the Industrial Revolution. But a threshing machine seems to require enough of both characteristics that manufacturing quality became critical to meet the standard of reliability that was needed for practicality and adoption.
Hey Sahaj. My immediate feedback is that as soon as I start to read this (or your other posts), what strikes me is that it is written in a belligerent and inflammatory style. (In the first sentence, we have “plunder,” “racket,” and “stolen”).
While I think there are many criticisms to be made of universities, I tend not to believe that they are plain evil. So, right off this analysis strikes me as either shallow, or written deliberately to provoke and aggregate the reader. Either way, I’m not interested in reading further.
Sorry if that is harsh feedback, wanted to be blunt and candid.
Seems entirely plausible to me that someone alive today could life an indefinite lifespan. Most people born in the last few years will almost certainly live 50+ years, and that is a lot of time for progress to happen.
I agree that the article is kind of hard to follow because the concept of state capacity doesn’t feel natural in the article, (this is more a stylistic issue than a conceptual one) when what is meant is something more like regulatory cost-multipliers.
If your audience is a little more left-coded, then ‘state capacity’ is a term more likely to generate agreement than talking about regulatory costs to efficiency, which sounds more libertarian.
I think I would have started the article with an arresting breakdown of how much of a project’s cost were caused by financing, and then used that to show that even low interest rates can’t help the impossibility of building even modest sized projects in the US at decent cost. The cost of financing is a big deal in multi-year projects, so creating policies on how to get things done when interest rates are higher is a big deal.
Now I’m wondering if there is a correlation between low interest rates and regulation. Do low interest rates crowd out low-cost construction, by decreasing the cost of regulation?
Interesting theory here. I hadn’t really thought about how to increase the demand side of the equation. I certainly think it’s generally important to have a population that’s hopeful about the future, open to try new products, and supportive of new, whacky ideas.
That being said, I’d encourage you to consider the supply side (new products/ideas) more deeply. What business factors contribute to a dearth of creative ideas? One might argue that the ad revenue model, which requires enormous amounts of attention, creates a certain kind of incentive structure, creating a very particular opportunity space. If that’s the case, how to invent new business models?
Also, I might look at capital that goes towards innovation. VC and other kinds of early stage capital typically steers clear of scary science projects, where I believe there’s a ton of opportunity. They tend to look for established business models like SaaS and advertising.
Finally, it’s worth noting that there’s still a ton of innovation out there. Uber, AirBnB, Tesla, Apple, Netflix, and many smaller companies are pushing the boundaries of what can be done with our current web and mobile infrastructure; and I see many opportunities now that Web3 is unlocking new ways of organizing human beings.
The selfishness motive for increasing demand is actually weaker than you might think. In the three examples you chose, climate change, Tesla, and Apple, I’d make the case that all three, even Apple(?) pulled demand because they are socially desirable at the same time as personally beneficial.
Having thought it about this some more, I think my point actually buttresses your thesis.
Lets imagine that humans are adaptable to the living standards of current circumstances and have finite competition points. Along the dimension of current circumstances there is zero-sum competition for status and relative power. Demand for status, relative power, and group belonging can swamp demand for a brighter, more efficient future.
So under this theory climate change action is an example where demand moved from the scientific community who identified a negative externality from carbon emissions to a marker of group solidarity and desirability. In this case, the competition to do something about it is probably net-good (although the anti-natal doomerism is a pretty high cost already, if that birth-rate effect is real), since many climate actions are productive.
So a model for boosting demand would be something like:
Identify goods where when demand increases there are long term positive effects. Thinkers and prophets.
Produce media content and communities around those effects. Enthusiasts and fandoms.
Create institutions that actually facilitate those effects. Innovators and political possiblity.
Each of these points requires a population that is not stuck trying to find ways to conform to their dis-innovative peers full time. “Freedom for alternative demand,” you might call it.
(This reminds me of Tyler’s comment on dentists. The marginal dentist doesn’t create much in the way of public goods. But the marginal innovative firm changes the equilibrium of society.)
Thanks Sebastian. I think this is a good way to think about it. “Nudging” demand away from the more zero-sum endeavors and toward productive ones.
Awareness and action on climate change is an especially good case study. Of course as other things, climate-related tech is both demand and supply driven, but there’s no doubt that overall climate awareness has pushed sales of things like solar, EVs, plant-based meats, etc. “goods where when demand increases there are long term positive effects” is a good way to put it.
Your steps 2 and 3 are obviously less clear how implement in practice. Especially finding ways to measure these effects. I mean, it’s pretty hard to measure how much good sci-fi has affected tech progress but long-term I think it’s clear it has.
Regarding the ‘demand cycle’, I thinkTechnological Revolutions and Financial Capital by Carlota Perez is relevant here. Basically technological progress goes through two broad phases of installation and deployment, each with two parts. Installation seems to relate to your 1 and 2 above, while deployment is #3, and it seems to me where progress has stalled. When the progress we have made and the demand we’ve created for that progress is deployed in a way that seems arbitrary or lackluster, the problem goes from stagnation (agent-less) to strangulation (agent-driven).
Perez frames the deployment period as a golden age of synergy that leads to maturity, where the cycle starts over. If that golden age is poorly distributed, then maturity looks less like well-earned growth and more like ossification. Related is the literature on the psychological effects of unfulfilled desire, including being unable to complete things, the inability to acquire, realize gains, pull things in and compose with them.
To take two examples from above, Apple and climate change have both successfully injected demand across the cycle, rather than just frontloading it and letting the chips fall. Apple’s deployment as a firm is much more ‘orderly’ than climate change (a broad movement), whose deployment ranges from dematerialization to anti-natalism to summits with world leaders. Satisfying our desire for Apple products is pretty straightforward, while satisfying our desire to prevent the worst of climate change is much more complicated.
Thank you , very useful …I thought the article gave an understanding to those new to your views and who wish to see the progress movement be considered real...yes GDP is important some governments do not not want to be measured when GDP falls that is why key...I did not understand your neutrality argument...may be I missed that in the article...every continued success in change and progress
I agree that we could use more inspiration, futurism, etc.!
I disagree with your comments on business/economics (which maybe weren’t the real point though?) I don’t think anything about demand explains stagnation.
For travel in particular, it’s wrong to analyze it in terms of the trips people currently take becoming shorter. You should look at the trips people are not taking now because they’re too long, and consider how much more such trips would happen. E.g., think of SF <> Tokyo as a day or weekend trip.
People don’t clamor explicitly for new products and services, but when a business creates something that actually provides much more utility, they flock to it pretty quickly.
Thanks for the thoughts Jason — helped me think a bit more about the idea.
See my response to @daviskedrosky, but I totally agree that in general it is supply-driven. It’s more that I wanted to give more attention to the demand side because it’s not talked about as much. It is a chicken-and-egg problem in the end (and my post doesn’t really discuss the balance).
In regard to “People don’t clamor explicitly for new products and services” I don’t think this is totally true, and it is a mix. And I do thinkthat demand is much more important than many believe in driving what gets built (and regulated, etc).
Your comment did lead me to think more about what kinds of innovation are more demand or supply driven though, and given all of your research I’m curious to hear your thoughts on it.
It seems to me many more incremental innovations are demand driven, while breakthrough innovations are typically supply driven. The only breakthrough innovations I can think of that were more demand driven are the result of large-scale forcing functions, like war or pandemics that radically change the demand for what is wanted and the urgency it’s needed.
Read the Silmarillion and study the elves. In Tolkien’s world the immortality of elves makes them discount local pains immensely, they don’t care about making happy people, and their mistakes are very hard to correct and consequently they are especially risk adverse compared to mankind.
But the elves are musical, rarefied, intelligent, and take the arts seriously, including the art of crafting. They make things which a from a human perspective are magical.
I thought the feature was pretty solid on research. And certainly was deep and explanatory! I wish, however, you were able to pull off a bit more gesturing at the breadth of voices in this space.
Matt Clancy, Brian Potter, who both run top quality substacks in addition to working for the Institute for Progress. Alexey Guzey at New Science. These are good examplars of the kind of gritty in the weeds work we are interested in. Such work reveals why it’s hard to extrapolate out a crisp ‘ideology.’
Towards the end I felt like Jason was given “philosopher of the movement” status, but I’d say it’s more that Tyler Cowen is Darwin and Jason is the Thomas Huxley. :)
One thing I’d like to know about these various machines is the force or torque they were able to produce. I suspect there is a threshold crossed at some point that makes them actually useful for a wide variety of important industrial applications. Sometimes these quantitative performance details are glossed over in the histories (especially since we often don’t have the data), but they can make all the difference. In this essay, I mentioned:
… the aeolipile doesn’t generate enough torque for practical applications—one analysis says that Watt’s engine generated a quarter of a million times more torque.
Another example I gave in that essay is computers and processing speed. A slow computer is technically a computer but isn’t actually useful.
Second, I think it’s important that Newcomen’s engine produced motion, rather than sucking/pumping water around, because motion can be applied to many industrial uses—pumping water, but also saw mills, bellows, machine tools, locomotives, steamboats, etc.
This is what David Deutsch calls the “jump to universality.” For an analogy, consider writing systems. The notation system developed 5,000 years ago in Sumer was for tracking inventory of goods and transactions. But it became a system that could represent any idea or concept. Similarly, Newcomen’s engine was developed to pump water out of mines, but it became an engine that could supply any industrial power needs.
Looking forward to Part 2. I am curious about this idea that the steam engine could have been created without any real input from science. Slightly skeptical but very curious!
The torque estimate you shared is, as I understand it, only for one version of the aeolipile—the famous one with the spinning hollow ball with nozzles. That version is often referred to as theaeolipile, which it is not. It is simply one variant of it, and certainly not the one that people used most commonly, which was the much simpler “philosophical bellows” or blowing face form that I illustrated. I think we’d need a different estimate of the torque from a more ordinary aeolipile, e.g. the one portrayed by Branca directed at vanes. I suspect this is also very low, but it’s worth clearing up this very common confusion.
I don’t think it’s correct to say that the Newcomen engine’s breakthrough was that it provided motion. It was still essentially applied to exactly the same things that the Savery engine was—pumping, occasionally with additional pumping-derived mechanical uses like using the pumped water to drive a waterwheel. It is the Watt engine, not the Newcomen engine, that made the breakthrough in directly supplying essentially any any industrial power need (although arguably the Watt engine is an improvement on the Newcomen one, it took over a half a century for it to be developed from it).
In terms of the jump to universality, I certainly had our conversations on this at the back of my mind when writing! One thing I really wanted to show is how people had already been experimenting with or at least considering using thermal energy (steam, and flue effects above fires) for a very wide range of mechanical uses already, and in Part II I will do something similar for applications of atmospheric pressure (though this is still under investigation). At the very least, from this post, I think I’ve demonstrated that the idea of universality from such power sources was nothing new.
An additional note: I’m not sure that torque estimates are necessarily the correct measure to compare the different engines, especially considering their various applications. Comparing the spinning hollow ball with nozzles with Watt’s engine seems completely nonsensical to me—it’s projecting back onto something that was not intended to be used that way at all. It’s presentist bias (something that we need to be especially wary of when studying technological pathways). One of the best theories about what Hero’s device was actually used for is not that it was some toy, but a scientific demonstration in the big debate on the source of the wind (a major debate well into the 17thC). So it’s not comparing like with like. As for comparing Savery and Newcomen, neither of them were used for torque (other than when they pumped for waterwheels, which should make no difference between them). Instead, we need to look at volume of water raised. But even this measure is complicated by all sorts of other factors like very different capital costs (Savery engines were much much cheaper), fuel consumption, and the space required for the engines. This requires further research, however. The Savery engine is in my opinion still very under-researched.
Thanks Anton! Let me step back a bit and clarify where I’m coming from.
I don’t know where you’re going with this, but there are a few kinds of conclusions you might end up on:
Which invention was the most important one, the one that deserves to be called out on our historiographic timelines (did Newcomen “really” invent the steam engine, or was it Savery, or was it de Caus, etc.)
Whether the steam engine “could have been” invented earlier (maybe even in ancient Rome)
Whether science was “needed” to invent the steam engine
And what I’m saying is that in considering those topics, it’s crucial to consider (1) the universality of the mechanism and (2) the amount of force that can be generated (not to mention other factors such as the fuel efficiency and therefore the cost of operation).
It could be that many types of machines operated by steam and/or air pressure for a long time, but if for practical reasons they couldn’t be applied to a wide range of industrial purposes, and if some later design change was needed to achieve that, then I think said design change is what deserves to be called out as the key invention.
I’m sure I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know, just harping on a pet issue of mine.
Step back a bit?! But I like it down here in the weeds!
That’s a very useful way to separate out two issues here, and helps me to clarify what I’m up to.
My main focus is on whether atmospheric pressure exploitation is older than the standard historiography suggests. Hence the choice of title, about whether the steam engine could have been invented earlier.
Part I is really about setting up 1) the pretty uncontroversial claim that it is atmospheric pressure and not steam itself that is the key issue of debate here, because of how human energy exploitation actually developed, and 2) making the slightly more controversial claim that we need to look at industrial atmospheric pressure exploitation in general, and not to focus solely on the Newcomen variant of it.
This is not really to make an argument about what the “real, first” steam engine is, but only to point out that Newcomen’s and Savery’s models were effectively parallel technologies, both in use c.1700-70, and exploiting the same natural phenomenon in very similar ways—both of them, according to the standard historiography, stemming from the discovery of atmospheric pressure. The reason I play up the Savery engine is also because the Newcomen engine has been overemphasised in people’s minds because of its later development by Watt, and not because of what the Newcomen engine itself actually achieved prior to Watt.
Now, I do briefly raise the possibility of a Newcomen engine, and thus a Watt engine, being eventually derived from a Savery engine. I do believe this to be true, and will probably write a sort of Part III arguing this case more fully, but for now I just wanted to narrow the focus of my “why not earlier” question, as I’m looking at it, on how early someone could have successfully exploited atmospheric pressure for industrial use.
Lastly, on science, I see this as a sort of sub-question, though I ought to clarify it in Part II. I’m not at all arguing that “science” was unimportant, as scientia just means knowledge after all. It’s about precisely which knowledge—in this case, whether successful industrial-scale exploitation of atmospheric pressure needed to have stemmed from the discoveries of Torricelli, von Guericke, Huygens, Boyle, and Papin specifically.
Very interesting, thanks! I covered some similar ground in my essay “Draining the swamp;” I think you would enjoy the references in that one. Some thoughts:
Did “medicine” cause the mortality decline?
There is a lot of truth in the McKinlay paper. In particular, it’s true that sanitation efforts probably did more than anything else to improve mortality in the 20th century. I think this is for two reasons: (1) Those techniques are less technologically advanced, and so they arrived first; vaccines and antibiotics that arrived later only get credit for mopping up what was left. (2) Prevention is more effective than cure.
But I think you have to be careful with how you interpret the data. It would be a little too easy to conclude that only certain techniques really mattered and others were not so important, and I think this is the wrong way to look at it.
One key thing to understand is that each disease spreads in its own way. Some are water-borne, some spread via insects or food, etc. This means that a given technique for prevention will work against some diseases and not others. No one technique works against all diseases; we need a collection of techniques.
For instance, you point to the amazing effectiveness of water sanitation. This is correct—against water-borne diseases such as typhoid fever or cholera. But water sanitation doesn’t help with malaria, or for that matter with covid.
Were vaccines relevant to mortality improvements?
This is tricky. First, there is the point I made above that vaccines often came after some simpler technique. But also, two of the biggest successes of vaccines are smallpox and polio.
Looking only at the 20th century (as the McKinlays do, and as is pretty common, especially since this is the period that has the best data) excludes the contributions of the smallpox vaccine, and even earlier the technique of inoculation, both of which date from the 1700s! These were big contributors to mortality declines in the 18th & 19th century.
Polio only had about a 10% fatality rate, but the rest of its victims were paralyzed for life. Looking only at mortality underweights the DALYs lost to polio.
Measles: this is an odd case. Mortality declined a lot in the early 20th century before the vaccine, but case load did not. That is, just as many people were getting measles, but the fatality rate was declining (unclear why, maybe Vitamin A or some other nutrition issue). The case rate only declined after the vaccine. So again there is a lot of relief-of-suffering that is not being counted here.
Typhoid: yeah, this is water sanitation
Influenza/pneumonia: they appear to have attributed the 1918 epidemic deaths to influenza. However, a lot of these deaths were actually caused by secondary pneumonia, which an antibiotic would have been very helpful against. Also the influenza chart here is hard to find a trend on, because of the epidemic.
Diphtheria: I don’t know why they label “toxoid” on the chart, because the first effective treatment for diphtheria was blood serum, and that was available from the 1890s.
Polio: that high number in 1910 seems to be from a particularly bad epidemic in 1916. If you look at this chart from OWID, it looks like cases were climbing, and deaths were at least not decreasing, until the vaccine came along in 1955. And again, the cases that did not die were generally paralyzed for life in one or more limbs.
Did we need the germ theory?
My reading of the history is that the germ theory was somewhat more important than you make it out to be in this piece.
On water sanitation, it’s true that these efforts began pre-germ theory, based on aesthetics and vague associations between filth/smell and disease. However, these efforts could only go so far unguided by theory. And sometimes they backfired: guided by the miasma theory, Chadwick built sewers that dumped tons of filthy water into the Thames, actually polluting the drinking water (see The Ghost Map). The germ theory helped set targets for water sanitation: they could actually count bacteria in water samples under the microscope. And I don’t think chlorination would have been introduced without germ theory. (Not checking references on this paragraph so I might be getting a few things wrong though)
Pest control is a similar example. Many efforts were begun as early as 18th or even 17th c., but, for instance, malaria and yellow fever were not eliminated until after the exact species of mosquito was discovered for each and its lifecycle and breeding habits carefully studied. Needed science for that one.
Food sanitation also was motivated by an understanding of germ theory. That’s part of how we got the FDA, etc.
Overall, some important progress on mortality was made pre–germ theory, but a lot (I think most) was made after, and I think there’s a reason for that.
I think the war on cancer will be the same. There is some progress we can make, and have already made, without a fundamental understanding of the disease, and of course we should go ahead and do that. But that will plateau at some point without a breakthrough in basic research. After such a breakthrough I would expect progress to accelerate dramatically.
Your point on the proper, theory-led goals of water sanitation is interesting. I think there’s maybe a decent way for us to figure this out.
The copy of Turneaure and Russel’s water sanitation textbook I used was from around 1940. But the first edition of that was from 1901. If we could find some analogous top-tier sources utilized just before some insights from germ theory we could probably figure out how much of the best-practices in planning changed from before/after the pervasion of the theory.
Do you think that would be fair or did I miss something? Because I’d believe you very well might be right. What I wrote was a fair representation of my sources but this is an area where I am very aware that my sources are few. So I don’t hold these beliefs nearly as confidently as my views related to something like physics in the early 1900s where my reading has been far more exhaustive.
That would be an interesting mini-research project. Also one of us could check my references here and see what I was relying on when I made those statements…
Agree: “Good governance matters more than interest rates.”
Pairs well with a point I think you made elsewhere, that we spend trillions on infrastructure (e.g., in the recent infrastructure bill) without focusing on how to get more out of those dollars.
Side note: I dislike the term “state capacity,” because it conflates the scope of government and its effectiveness. In a context like this, I’d be inclined to use a term like “efficiency” or “cost-effectiveness” (which will be understood by more people anyway).
(Minor correction to your timeline: The Roots of Progress didn’t become its own nonprofit organization until 2021; from 2019 to 2021 I was an independent researcher funded by grants from other organizations.)
July 10 & 11 in SF: interested in driving progress on molecular machines using software tooling? Apply to join Foresight Institute Designing Molecular Machines Workshop, chaired by William Shih, Ben Reinhardt, and Adam Marblestone: https://foresight.org/molecular-workshop/
Fascinating! The more I study medicine and medical history the more disappointed I am with the field. Do you know of any good critiques of the McKinlays’ paper?
I think the general thesis here, that most of the mortality improvements were from sanitation/hygiene rather than from pharma or even vaccines, is fairly well-accepted. But see my comments above for how to interpret this—I don’t think there’s any reason to be disappointed with the medical field.
I don’t but I’m sure they could exist. My expertise with sources in this area is not as in depth as economics or physics history. The reason I was happy to go about publishing is because Grant Miller is known in econ world to be quite expert/careful and good at what he does. So I did have a certain faith that if in the three decades between Mckinlays writing and their papers he’d have rooted out and addressed the primary counterarguments in their two part research.
And of course I’m always open-minded to update my views as things come out now as well
Recently it has become clear that many technologies follow a generalized version of Moore’s law, i.e. costs tend to drop exponentially, at different rates that depend on the technology. Here we formulate Moore’s law as a correlated geometric random walk with drift, and apply it to historical data on 53 technologies. We derive a closed form expression approximating the distribution of forecast errors as a function of time. Based on hind-casting experiments we show that this works well, making it possible to collapse the forecast errors for many different technologies at different time horizons onto the same universal distribution. This is valuable because it allows us to make forecasts for any given technology with a clear understanding of the quality of the forecasts. As a practical demonstration we make distributional forecasts at different time horizons for solar photovoltaic modules, and show how our method can be used to estimate the probability that a given technology will outperform another technology at a given point in the future.
Hey everyone! I was really excited to share this piece and get everyone’s thoughts on the general area, possible extensions, caveats I didn’t think of, etc.
Life sciences is not my particular area of expertise, so I was particularly excited to see what everyone thinks about all of this/if you know interesting books and work I can look in to to learn more.
What the post left me with, in some ways despite itself, was a sense of hope in the possible. Like, I want to go to the idea machine fair… Even more than the new world’s fair.
Doesn’t seem to be a way to have links open in a new tab, but if you click through to the original post, the links on that page will open in new tabs.
I have experimented with embedding, screenshotting, or quoting full tweets but I haven’t liked how it has turned out in practice, so I keep reverting to simple links.
It’s remarkable that someone used the word ‘synergy’ to describe his relationship with Claude Shannon. Clearly the word choice indicates someone obsessed with his work. The main contributor to that page is a “Dr. K.” I have only figured out that he is a retired professor living on or near Corfu. I sent him a message.
One interesting thing: when you look at the “best” colleges for specific subjects say 80 years ago it seems like there was more heterogeneity and small colleges with some specialty. Today the best colleges are all “the best” at every subject.
I do think it’s important to work on AI safety. I would like to learn more about it. I have been following the debate on this to at least some extent.
If we can make safe AI, then I think it has enormous potential, possibly even at the PASTA level. There’s a paper from Robin Hanson where he models the log history of economic growth as a series of three exponential modes (very roughly, “hunting,” “farming,” and “industry”) and speculates that if there is a fourth mode, we are due for it soon—and that it could create growth levels ~2 orders of magnitude greater than we’ve seen in the Industrial Age. PASTA is certainly a candidate for such a fourth mode.
But I think that progress studies is still relevant, even in such a world—perhaps far more relevant. If we retain control over the future, then we will need to make choices that shape the future, and progress studies should guide us.
And of course, there are so many unknown unknowns here that we can’t be sure that AGI will happen, or on what timescale. So it’s also important to keep working other angles (nanotech, longevity, etc.) For that reason, although I understand the sentiment, I don’t think it would literally be “silly if we were working on NSF spending when the takeoff began.” We should be working on many things at once.
I’m curious, what’s your main doubt about AGI happening eventually (excluding existential risks or scenarios where we end up back at the stone age)? The existence of humans, created by dumb evolution nonetheless, seems to constitute a strong evidence of physical possibility. And our ability to produce computer chips with astonishingly tiny components seems to suggest that we can actually do the physical manipulations required. So I think it’s one of those things that sounds more speculative than it actually is.
I mean, I guess it’s true that there is some doubt about AGI happening, but when you really get down to it, you can doubt anything. So I guess I’d be curious to have a better idea of what you mean by some doubt—maybe even a rough percent chance? I have a very low percent chance of AGI not happening (barring catastrophic risks as stated above) from within my model of the world, but I have a higher, but still low chance of my model being wrong.
I don’t think it is fair to act like Jason is doubting something so knockdown clear. Yes, to you and I AGI seems obviously possible and within this century seems even seems likely, but Jason said he doesn’t know much about the AI stuff. And his default view is agnosticism, not deference to the LW community. Don’t forget that not everyone has spent the past decade reading about AGI! ;)
I have read enough (e.g., Holden Karnofsky’s essays) to understand the case for it. It is a compelling case. What I’m arguing against is a line of thinking like: “AGI will be here soon and it will either kill us or solve all our problems, so there’s no point in working on curing cancer, longevity, nanotech, fusion, or progress studies.” There are just too many unknown unknowns.
On top of which I would add that machine intelligence, however it evolves, is something very different from human intelligence, just as a washing machine is different from a housekeeper and a submarine is different from a whale. Machines “think” in the way that a submarine “swims.” So there are limits on how much we can extrapolate from human intelligence.
The aspect as was arguing for as almost certain on the inside view is that we would be able to develop AGI eventually barring catastrophe. I wasn’t extending that to “AGI will be here soon”.
Regarding “AGI kill us or solve all our problems”; I think there are some possible scenarios where we end up with a totalitarian government or an oligarchy controlling AI or the AI keeps us alive for some reason (incl. s-risk scenarios) or being disempowered by AI/”going out with a whimper” as per What failure looks like. But I assign almost no weight on the internal view of AGI just not being that good. (What I mean by that, is I exclude the scenarios that are common in sci-fi where we have AGI and we still have humans doing most things and being better or as good, but not scenarios where humans do things b/c we don’t trust the AI or b/c we need “fake jobs” for the humans to feel important).
Re “we would be able to develop AGI eventually” as “almost certain”: At least up until a year ago I would have said no, definitely not certain, because a computer is very different from a brain and we don’t know yet what it can do. However, as AI advances, I put more probability on it.
Given enough computing power, we should be able to more or less simulate a brain. What is or was your worry? Ability to parallelise? Maybe that even though it may eventually become technically possible, it’ll always be cost-prohibitive? Or maybe that small errors in the simulation would magnify over time?
Well, I’m not a materialist, so it’s not obvious to me that we can successfully simulate a brain, in the ways that matter, on purely material hardware. We just really don’t understand consciousness or how it arises at all. That to my mind is a huge unknown.
I don’t identify as a materialist either (I’m still figuring out my views here), but the question of qualia seems orthogonal to the question of capabilities. A philosophical zombie has the same capability to act in the world as someone who isn’t a zombie.
(I should add, this conversation has been useful to me as it’s helped me understand why certain things I take for granted may not be obvious to other people).
Actually, I can imagine a world where physical brains operated by interacting with some unknown realm that provided some kind of computation capability that the brain lacked itself, although as neuroscience advances, there seems less and less scope for anything like this (not that I know very much about neuroscience at all).
Re the first point, I agree. I would tentatively suggest doing something like OpenPhil’s worldview diversification, where research, labor, and capital are divided among a few distinct futures scenarios and each is optimized independently. My point in the piece is that I think the current program is a bit under-diversified.
Thanks for posting this! I would lean towards saying that it would be more tractable for Progress Studies to make progress on these issues than it might appear from first glance. One major advantage that progress studies has is that it is a big tent movement. Lots of people are affected by the unaffordability of housing and would love to see it cheaper, but very few people care enough about housing policy to show up to meetings about it every month. The topic just isn’t that interesting to most people, myself included, and the conversations would probably get old fast. In contrast, Progress Studies promises to bundle enough ideas together that it has real growth potential.
Sounds reasonable. However, a better long-term strategy seems to be complete privatization. I.e. to remove the subsidies and tax breaks. I think Brian Caplan would support this strategy (see his book on the education system).
There are really two questions, I think. One is whether or not tutoring is a good way forward. The other is about the classical curriculum and methods that the tutors used, but that were also used in non-tutoring contexts (Roman primary schools, Medieval universities, etc.).
I think your info is mostly about the second thing.
Re: what changed in the Renaissance and Enlightenment: Enlightenment tutors tended to do much more geography and be more on the more aggressive side about teaching Euclid. There was also probably on average some easing up on the later elements of the trivium, with someone like Locke (qua tutoring) easing up a lot and traditionalists much less so. (You can also see some easing in De Ingenuis Moribus.)
To your point, I don’t think the Renaissance works really change much about the classical approach to education. What most of your post illustrates is the extreme, multi-century stability of the Trivium approach, which was true in both tutoring and non-tutoring contexts. What’s shocking about the Enlightenment is that education doesn’t really look much different, except in the very upper edge of the research university context.
Part of the reason for the extreme stability of the ancient curriculum is that rhetoric was stable as the one and only master-skill of the elite, the power tool for gaining wealth and influence. That’s not true anymore, which is one of many reasons to be skeptical of any sort of simple applicability of the ancient approach to today.
Strongly agree this info is mostly about what tutoring was, but I have been struck recently by how far-reaching this idea of ‘rhetoric’ is. I have found it very easy throughout my life to think about this classic notion of rhetoric as mere speaking well and persuading. But the way it is talked about and the way the curricula of Cicero, Quintilian and Renaissance thinkers seem to think of it, as you say, as the master skill of the elite. Is it not true anymore?
It depends on how we define this master skill. What exactly was this skill, if it is broader than mere persuasion? Rhetoric has its roots in law, political, persuasion, and the courts so we might call it ‘public advocacy.’ But it concerns not so much what to advocate so much as how to advocate. So at minimum it requires a knowledge of law, persuasion, and politics.
What might rhetoric have to do with progress studies?
Today, the good public advocate needs also knowledge of technology, economics, and maybe something else, and an eye to how more good can be done. But the key factor of a modern rhetoric would be the study and practice of mechanisms and method for getting stuff done: soft networks, legal process, fundraising, think tanks, legislative interventions, startup pitches, nonprofit organization, policy drafting and implementation, management science.
Since I believe that organizational and structural barriers are currently a bigger limiting variable on progress than invention and technology, a new version of rhetoric might be called for.
One alternative view is that I am just abusing the term and rhetoric is as obsolete as wooden wheels.
Big fan of this idea! My team (Nonlinear.org) created The Nonlinear Library so people can use their podcast app (Spotify, Apple, etc) to listen to top posts from the EA Forum, Alignment Forum, and LessWrong.
If there’s enough interest, we could make a Progress Forum podcast feed as well!
Related, an interview with David Ellison, producer of Top Gun: Maverick:
What is your outlook on the movie business and movies in theaters?
Covid accelerated trends that were already in place. Go back to 2019, the separation between winners and losers was getting pretty big.
What do you mean by winners and losers?
If you go back to 2019, you either had something that really broke out, a huge hit, or you didn’t. That middle ground that used to exist really disappeared.
One thing to keep in mind is the potential for technologies to be hacked. I think widespread self-driving cars would be amazingly convenient, but also terrifying as companies allow them to be updated over the air. Even though the chance of a hacking attack at any particular instance of time is low, given a long enough time span and enough companies it’s practically inevitable. When it comes to these kind of widescale risks, a precautionary approach seems viable, when it comes to smaller and more management risks a more proactionary approach makes sense.
This is interesting, but I really do want to see what ideas you have for mechanism.
The problem with law—that doesn’t apply to, say, Wikipedia pages—is that if you create a bad one you can do a lot of damage to a lot of people. So our mechanisms for making law are deliberately inefficient. They are the opposite of permissionless innovation.
If we want to enable anyone to make law, and have it be really fast and efficient and low-friction, it can’t be the kind of law that constrains the freedom of an entire population. It has to be something else.
You have a good point that, historically, speed has had some correlation with legislation quality. But that’s just a failure of the mechanisms.
It’s like saying that communism works better than capitalism because if you create a bad economy you can damage a lot of people, so our mechanisms for organizing the economy should be deliberately inefficient. Capitalism achieved an economy that is really fast and efficient and low-friction.
But I agree this is a moot debate until the mechanisms are discussed. I’ll do that in the future.
I’m not even sure that I would say that speed has a correlation with quality in legislation. It’s more that adding process, and especially requiring review and broad agreement, helps avoid some of the worst outcomes.
The analogy to an economy doesn’t hold: if someone creates a bad business, you can choose not to patronize it; if someone creates a bad law, you can’t choose not to follow it.
… Unless you are in a choice-of-law regime, e.g., the way a new business can choose what state to incorporate in, and is governed by the corporate law of that state; or the way a merchant ship can choose what flag to fly under.
Maybe you are going to propose that kind of system? Looking forward to future posts that get into the mechanisms!
At its core, YIMBY is about what de Tocqueville called “self interest, rightly understood.” It is about folks who have access to a resource deciding not to protect it and make it scarce, but instead opening it up to a broader community. It is about battling selfishness in our public policy, and believing in a positive-sum, abundant view of the future.
Most humans are significantly richer than their ancestors. Humanity gained nearly all of its wealth in the last two centuries. How did this come to pass? How did the world become rich?
Mark Koyama and Jared Rubin dive into the many theories of why modern economic growth happened when and where it did. They discuss recently advanced theories rooted in geography, politics, culture, demography, and colonialism. Pieces of each of these theories help explain key events on the path to modern riches. Why did the Industrial Revolution begin in 18th-century Britain? Why did some European countries, the US, and Japan catch up in the 19th century? Why did it take until the late 20th and 21st centuries for other countries? Why have some still not caught up?
Koyama and Rubin show that the past can provide a guide for how countries can escape poverty. There are certain prerequisites that all successful economies seem to have. But there is also no panacea. A society’s past and its institutions and culture play a key role in shaping how it may – or may not – develop.
The particle accelerator chart is really interesting, would love to find more charts like that showing basically stacked S-curves creating exponential growth.
Right?! I was so fascinated by that. I’d never realized what so many of the Moore’s Law type charts weren’t showing until I saw this one. I think it could be a really great project to try to crowdsource more of these charts as a community. For old and new tech. It would really give us a great peak into where we’re at and how things have changed over time.
I’m not really sure how to go about it because I’m not yet well-connected/don’t have a big following, but there are surely people on the forum more plugged in than me who would know the right people who could contribute some of these charts.
Funny, growing up in the US we’re taught a version of human history that centralizes technology. We’re taught that what makes Australopithecus special was walking and inventing stone tools, homo erectus is inventing fire, and so on. Invention is almost framed as what makes us human!
I wonder if another way to think about a piece of this problem is “how do we expand one’s scientific/creative productivity peak.” Now, don’t get me wrong, I want to live 200 years as much as anybody here. So I want us to push for that also!
But it also does seem like a majority of our most progress-inducing ideas are not just coming from a severe minority of people, but happening in a severely limited age range of those people’s lives. Mathematicians, physicists, chemists, etc. all have been known to be susceptible to this problem.
So, I could imagine a world where we extend lifespans without really expanding this productivity peak at all. And, there could be some good in that. But I’d also be quite interested if a piece of longevity focused on expanding our productivity peak. Under certain assumptions, I could see that doing just as much or more good for progress even if our life expectancy stayed fixed.
Yeah, definitely. Some people suggested that part of curing aging is extending neuroplasticity, which could help you stay open and nimble-minded even when you’re older. But I suspect that closed-mindedness is a function of both social and physiological causes, and I don’t know what weight to give each.
Interesting topic! Holden Karnofsky writes here that economic growth likely cannot continue forever, but he’s talking about the next 5,000 years or so rather than the next 100. Assuming exponential growth continues, we’d eventually be squeezing billions of dollars of economic value out of every atom in the galaxy, which seems difficult, to say the least.
Yeah, I agree with those estimates. Basically if growth does continue, then in less than 10k years we hit some unimaginable utopia. At that point things might have to level off based on the laws of physics. But if we get there I don’t think anyone will complain!
My basic thesis on why IV failed is that the property rights are terribly defined in intellectual property in general, since pretty much every single case has to be adjudicated by the judicial system, which means that markets fail for standard ‘tragedy of the commons’ reasons (in the strict economic model sense, not just the commonly applied metaphor). It’s as if land rights to houses were defined with the specificity of “the 3rd house after you turn the street corner, from about where the road bends for about twenty paces”. The entire system begs for expensive lawsuits at every turn the moment disputes about borders come into play.
The only way to deal with this scenario is exactly what economic models predict when dealing with commons - you have to internalize the externalities and manage the commons under a single ownership that cares for the stewardship of the ecosystem in totality. So most IP ownership is internalized inside firms.
The only way to make liquid IP markets is to bring down the transaction costs so that, in the Coasean sense, it makes sense for IP owners to trade it at arms length. There are definitely standard contracts that could work, if the ownership boundaries were cleanly defined. The trillion dollar question is: can the ownership boundaries ever be cleanly defined? IV simply assumed the system worked, and what you needed was to increase trading volumes to bootstrap a market. They never succeeded, and I think it’s because that question still needs answering.
It’s also worth studying the one situation where IP rules do result in working markets: pharmaceutical drugs. Here, there is something that can be defined pretty clearly: a specifically enumerated molecule, sometimes with a specific endpoint. It’s also interesting that the approach usually taken is to wrap that molecule in a firm, apply VC funding to it, and IPO it!
This is a nice post. I have a similar feeling about 18th century Britain—they are just discovering that you should innovate, and do so in every possible direction.
The argument is also consequential. Suppose people avoided innovation even though it was easy and profitable.
Where does that leave progress studies/economics?
On a basic level, easy: materialism is out, and culturalism is in.
However, then you realize that material incentives and rational choice provide the intellectual scaffolding for a vast share of all research in economic history. Cultural explanations are on the rise with Jacobs, Mokyr, and McCloskey, but while they are stimulating (and important!) conjectures, they’re far from rational choice in terms of coherence and sharpness.
So on one level, the post is a fun observation about innovation, but on a deeper level, it asks us to reconceptualize vast swaths of social science!
I’m glad Hannes should notice this deeper implication, as it is certainly one thing I had intended when I originally wrote this piece! When I give seminars to economists, convincing them that innovation might be outside of one’s choice-set is one of the first and most difficult things I try to do.
The classic old guard problem is compelling, but seems rather hypothetical. I wonder if there have been case studies of fields that have moved fast/slow due to the longevity (or lack thereof) of their practitioners? For example, if a scientific field has been led by someone who lived into their 90s or 100s, did that field move more slowly? Can we analyze that?
There was a study that looked at what happens in a subfield when a dominant researcher dies in the middle of their career. Matt Clancy covers it here: Conservatism in Science
Hey there! I’m a startup founder and software engineer who is also one of the folks from the anthropology community who was initially skeptical of Progress Studies, so I can speak to their concerns—which, to your point, largely came across as snide grumbling amongst academics. Unfortunately, as is often the case with tight-knit communities, their real concerns were understood implicitly and therefore not deemed necessary to communicate openly.
tl;dr, there’s a pattern of (some) SV tech types only respecting two areas of knowledge: STEM, and economics (but only some economics—i.e. not political economy, economic history, labour economics...), and thinking all other areas of knowledge can be dismissed, ignored, and rebuilt from “first principles” by STEM folks.
To a group of people already concerned about this trend who spent their careers studying how different forms of knowledge emerge and are transmitted across communities, they read the initial PS piece and (wrongly) assumed this was about to happen again. And as people who, for the most part, genuinely share many of the impulses and desires of PS folks, they were dismayed at the thought that all their painstaking research and advocacy for better innovation systems and policy would not only continue to be ignored, but dismissed outright.
There’s a broad understanding that PS is meant to be an applied discipline—but 90% of the concern was that it would be an applied discipline that would only draw on the same set of economic theories that have already motivated innovation policy for the past few decades, and nothing would change as a result.
Thankfully, the community is thoughtful enough to not let that happen.
This is fun to think about. Two thoughts popped up:
1. I wonder if it also changes researchers’ appetite for risk knowing they may have time to recover in the future if their riskier projects fail.
2. Perhaps there’s also a mechanism forcing science to be more robust/credible. If my career is now 100 years long rather than 30 years, there may be a longer-term penalty for engaging in shoddy science. (This probably sits under your long-term thinking bracket).
I think both points are very important. I also think they reduce the old guard risk. ,
Consider an example where a researcher is powerful in a paradigm that either is wrong or stagnant.
Currently, cognitive decline and a short horizon make it unattractive admit failure and start from scratch. Instead, you fight a rearguard action until retirement.
With longevity and 100 years to go, you would realize that defending the old paradigm is a losing battle, and you also have lots of time and cognitive ability to get back in learning mode and come back stronger.
I’ve found this interview fun and enlightening to listen to. Coming from the EA movement, I was initially skeptical of the progress studies movement because I thought it was pretty much only about human prosperity or economic growth. But it’s more general: it’s the belief that for any problem we face, we can use our minds to come up with solutions, and that we need to preserve and improve the institutions that drive innovation so that we can solve these problems. As you said in the interview, advancements in safety (whether in AI, biotechnology, etc.) are a form of progress.
One concern I’ve had is that progress so far has only benefited humans, and come at the expense of other sentient beings and the natural environment. As the human population has grown, so has the population of farmed animals, the vast majority of which live in cruel conditions. (And we’re just beginning to address wild animal suffering.) But animal suffering on factory farms is another problem that humanity can solve, whether it be through new technologies (e.g. meat and dairy substitutes) or new institutions and laws to protect farmed animals. And moral progress is part of progress too. 🙂
P.S. It would be nice if we could embed Our World In Data charts, as on the EA Forum 🙂📈
It would be interesting to have a discussion about animal welfare on this forum. Might be worth a short post to frame the issue and invite people to share thoughts in the comments.
Re charts, we are using the same forum platform as EA and LessWrong, so we should have all the same features? Let me know if there’s something you’re seeing in the EA Forum editor that’s not here.
The way I imagine this working is that you write these principles into the Constitution of Interland. (There should also be an initial list of reference countries, with a process to add or remove from the list.)
Then, you write your best-effort attempt at a starting legal code conforming to those principles. If you get it wrong, or if things change in other countries, then anyone can challenge the law in the Interland court system, campaigning to get something approved or prohibited on the grounds of how the reference countries do it.
In other words, the most important thing is to have an error-correction mechanism (cf. David Deutsch).
I really like this. I really like Solarpunk personally but I think one of its core problems is how tied to degrowth it can be. This plus it’s aversions to markets make it a mixed bag. I love the idea of creating an aesthetic and idea for the future around us conquering our surroundings and even improving on them.
There are portions of Solarpunk I think we should seek to incorporate. I often get the sense from Solarpunk types that they have a vision of the future that is collaborative and kind. I think ideally these elements are also incorporated into Terrapunk. There’s a certain warmth and peace to Solarpunk imagery I often see and I think we can both embrace this as well as the more dynamic imagery. While we should certainly celebrate the geniuses that push humanity forward we should also envision a more collaborative, fair society. How are the average people empowered in this society to do more than they could otherwise? How are their lives improved? At it’s best this should be what Solarpunk shows us though like you mentioned it rarely shows people going about their lives.
Capitalism and innovation have been the pivotal things that have increased the standard of living for people for the past several hundred years and it will be interesting to depict and imagine how that will continue. It will also be interesting to imagine what comes afterwards. In a post scarcity world I can only imagine the economic systems will look very different from our own.
It should be a new post, so people can link to it directly. Eventually it could get nominated to be a “curated” post or go in our library of readings, etc.
I really like this framing of research-y ideas. Matches what I was thinking in a conversation with an angel investor on the difficulties of investing in frontier-tech startups.
It seems like the key for startup funding is finding profitable intermediate goals. Optimizable projects within the bigger, non-global-critical-path effort.
This is basically what SpaceX did to me. Building a colony on mars is a clear goal but has no global critical path. However “drastically lower cost of payload to orbit” does (albeit with some “fatness” in it for sure). And more obviously monitizable despite the capital/time requirements. Add to that the creativity of exploiting other monetizable businesses that are enabled in pursuit of the goal (Starlink) and it makes further financial sense.
Thinking about it like this reminds me of the means-ends heuristic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means–ends_analysis You may not know what to optimize for the final goal but there can be profitable intermediate ones that get you closer to the final goal.
Of course, there are some areas where there still won’t be any intermediate + profitable goals. These are the real research-y ideas.
I enjoyed this interview. I found it particularly interesting to hear how you were originally skeptical of the stagnation view and only came around to it later.
This resonates with me a lot—thanks, Jack. I particularly appreciate the idea that we could not only “stop climate change” but even improve the climate.
A while ago I articulated what I call the Principle of Control: “Anything that matters to human life should be under our control.” (thread)
The climate matters to us; therefore, the climate should be under our control. In the future, we should be able to control the outdoor climate just as easily as, today, we control the indoor climate. We should have a thermostat for the Earth and set the temperature to whatever we want. We should be able to control the composition of the atmosphere with the same precision that, today, we control the composition of metal alloys in a foundry.
Re: other examples—true interchangeable parts, which was a major manufacturing advance, required a lot of advances in precision manufacturing. It had been attempted as early as the early 1700s, and was made much more feasible/cost effective by the invention of high-speed tool steel in the late 1800s, which made it possible to machine heat-treated parts. Interchangeable parts was, among other things, one of the technologies that made Ford’s assembly line possible (iirc, Ford was the very first car manufacturer to use interchangeable parts.) But as late as the 1940s, it was still expensive to get true interchangeability, and wasn’t always used.
I think you’re right about “dark matter,” and precision machining is exactly the first example of it that leapt to mind. E.g., Watt was having a hard time getting his improved steam engine to work reliably, because without a very good fit between the piston and cylinder, steam pressure would be lost. The problem was solved by Wilkinson, who had developed a special technique for boring canons that could be applied to cylinders for engines. This story is told toward the beginning of Simon Winchester’s book The Perfectionists (sold in the UK under the title Exactly, I think).
Another one that comes to mind is chemical synthesis. Think about how much in the chemical and pharmaceutical industries relies on our ability to synthesize chemicals. And yet, this is rarely discussed even in books on the history of technology. Every once in a while I marvel that we can just synthesize molecules. How do we do that? And how did we learn to do that?!
Or, consider the semiconductor industry. To even invent, say, the transistor, we needed the ability to make n-type and p-type silicon. I haven’t dug into it yet, but it must have required sophisticated materials processes to perform the appropriate doping of boron and phosphorus, which are present in the silicon in minute quantities.
One more: When I looked into the history of smallpox vaccines, I found that there was a lot of iteration after the initial vaccine to improve safety, storability, and transportability:
Small amounts of vaccine could be stored for a short time on ivory points, between glass plates, on dried threads, or in small vials. But the virus would lose its effectiveness quickly, especially when subject to heat. When King Charles VI of Spain sent a vaccination expedition to the Americas as a philanthropic effort in 1803, the crew took 22 orphan boys: one was vaccinated before they left, and when his pustule formed, a second boy was vaccinated from the first, arm-to-arm; and so on in a human-virus chain that sustained the vaccine during their months-long voyage across the Atlantic.
Degradation, especially from heat, is a general problem affecting organic material. There are two basic solutions: refrigerating (or freezing), and drying. Before refrigeration, or when it was expensive or otherwise impractical, such as in tropical regions during the World Wars, drying was necessary. The challenge is that the simplest way to dry a material is to heat it, and heat is what we’re trying to protect the material from. Further, drying would often cause proteins to coagulate, making it difficult to reconstitute the material.
The solution, developed in the early 1900s, was “freeze drying”. This technique involves rapidly freezing the material, then putting it under a vacuum so the ice “sublimates”: that is, water vapor evaporates directly off the ice without ever melting into water. A secondary drying process (involving mild heat and/or a chemical desiccant) removes the remaining moisture, and the result is dry material that has not been damaged in structure. If properly sealed off from moisture in the air, the material will last for a long time, even when subject to heat, and it can easily be reconstituted by adding water. Freeze-drying was first applied to blood transfusions in the 1930s; Leslie Collier, in 1955, found that it allowed the smallpox vaccine to last several months even at 37° C (98.6° F), which was suitable for tropical climates.
Think about all of the underlying technologies that are required to invent and scale up something like freeze drying. Progress is highly interconnected; it compounds.
I’m pleased to advise and help unveil Project Innerspace, a new nonprofit focused on removing the technical obstacles to Geothermal Anywhere by 2030. Check out the site, and follow @innerspace2030.
This was triggered by news today in my home state of California, where a powerful legislator wants to spend $10 billion of our (temporary bumper) surplus subsidizing housing
For some reason, the media really doesn’t want to spread the message “we need to build more housing”. One theory is that many of the older journalists own property and don’t want more construction in their neighborhoods. This doesn’t seem like a very good explanation as then we might predict the younger journalists who don’t own property would push to build more.
A second theory is that the media is currently pushing the narrative of rich oppressing the poor and this explanation doesn’t fit with this narrative. This seems more likely. Many journalists are struggling financially due to the shift to online, so even if the housing market were fixed it likely wouldn’t fix their issues. Hence they are incentivised to push for a more extensive restructuring of society.
“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up people to collect wood and don’t assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea”—Antoine de Saint Exupéry
For example, what could be done to make the AlexNet happen 10 years earlier?
I know it might be a heretical question on this forum, but do we really need to accelerate AI? Isn’t there some point at which we can say “fast enough”? Like if we could press a button a make AGI appear today, would be wise to press that button? Are we truly ready for the consequences of what would arguably be the most important moment in our entire history? Aren’t there enough other things in society that we could fix instead?
Question: when I strong upvote the vote count only ticks up by one. Is this intentional? I’m a big fan of casting two votes at a time for stellar contributions!
I’ve looked mostly at progress from an energy lens, and I think the upper bound constraint for progress is relevant there too.
Coal was restricted largely to space heating until the steam engine, which itself was restricted to stationary applications until the steam locomotive. Oil’s first beachhead was kerosene lamps, decades before internal combustion engines were commercialized. Electricity needed the build out of vast, centralized grids and large coal and hydro power stations. I wrote more about this in this section of a recent long read.
I’m also very interested in the question of how to best accelerate the “dark matter” ecosystem and fast track the next AlexNet in whatever domain it happens to be. I too would be interested to see examples of domains that require minimal infrastructure and dark matter.
Silicon Valley was originally highly suspicious of the business establishment with its focus on disrupting it, although this seems to have softened somewhat as it has formed its own establishment.
I really like the idea of an idea machine. I think more people within EA should consider EA as a system.
I’m surprised to hear “It’s time to build” is different Progress Studies as they seem pretty aligned. Then again, I’ve only really seen that essay by itself. Is there a broader community around it and where can I find out about it?
“We seem to understand that entrepreneurship operates in a free market of ideas, so I’m not sure where the idea comes from that there is, or could be, One True Approach to philanthropy”—Agreed. In particular, I think that a lot of efforts to improve the world through politics shouldn’t occur through EA. I also appreciate that the rationality community is somewhat distinct from EA as that allows it to focus more on epistemics.
Own Cotton-Barratt’s talk Prospecting for Gold has been pretty influential in Effective Altruism in shifting more effort towards lots of small experiments with high-upside and limited downside (but that said a lot of money is still just redirected to the Against Malaria Foundation and other top charities)
Regarding expressive value, I’d suggest Eliezer’s essay—Purchase Fuzzies and Utilions Separately. In order to be an EA you don’t have to choose all your donations or actions according to EA principles. I think of it like being an artist—in order to be an artist you have to produce at least some art, but you can do other things with your time as well.
“EA will continue to grow, but it will never become the dominant narrative because it’s so morally opinionated”—There’s some intentionality here. Lots of people don’t want EA to grow too fast as they are worried that communities that grow too fast can fail to pass on their culture. In contrast, this is probably an accurate statement for Giving What We Can, which is aims to grow as fast as it can, but which is rigorous enough that I expect it will only ever find a niche audience.
“Why aren’t there more effective altruisms?”—Perhaps it’s because being part of EA is appealing enough[1] that many people or groups that could have formed their own movement end up becoming part of EA (take for example AI Safety, although from what I heard at EAG London, AI Safety specific movement building is starting to take off).
One interesting question to ask is why is EA an idea engine and not LW. Again, part of this is some people within LW don’t want it to become more of a movement because they are worried about this distorting its epistemics.
I think it is possible to turn ideas into action without major funders, but unfortunately, EA had limited success here.
Re “It’s Time to Build”; I was also a bit surprised to see that here as a separate item, for the same reason. But, I was also surprised to see Schmidt Futures as a separate item—it’s a bit hard for me to understand how a single entity can be an idea machine unto itself? Nadia is coming at these things at a very granular level, and I find that interesting in itself.
Fascinating article. I’m surprised that I had never heard of the Bonfire of the Vanities and how it disrupted the Renaissance. I wonder how history would have turned out if it hadn’t been disrupted.
I also found it interesting how those short disruptions were sufficient to end those society’s golden ages, particularly since I would be tempted to argue that our own society has recently been suffering through such a disruption.
For the flip side of the coin, I would like to nominate the invention of the nuclear bomb as one of the most tragic moments in history.
Thanks! The nuclear bombings were obviously very tragic, though if we take the view that a progress-positive culture is the main criterion for tragicness, the development of the bomb may have been a pretty good period, since it led to nuclear energy and other innovations.
Assuming the Great Stagnation hypothesis is true, whatever happened in the 1970s to slow down science could be said to be our 3rd most tragic moment. But it looks like our civilization is self-aware enough to avoid a full return to stasis, so fortunately we’re not quite there yet.
The development of the bomb may have been a pretty good period, since it led to nuclear energy and other innovations
I agree that we’re probably ahead at this point, but, I don’t know, seems like a pretty risky bet to take that it’ll remain net-positive over the long-term. Like, sure it’s nice nuclear power is an option, even if we don’t make much use of it, and that we have isotopes for medical use, but that doesn’t really feel worth having a nuclear apocalypse hanging over our heads?
Einstein said: ““I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.” And from what I’ve heard there’s truth in that. There’s a pretty good chance at least some humans will survive any nuclear conflict, but I’d be quite surprised if we didn’t fall way down the tech tree. So this kind of situation seems like the exact opposite of what we want if we’re in favour of progress.
This is essentially the debate on whether a specific technology should have been developed. Many possible answers: it was likely inevitable anyway that at least one country would develop the bomb; suppressing atomic research to avoid it would have led to a poorer world; etc.
In any case we have somehow managed not to have a nuclear war, so even though there’s a potential of tragicness, the bomb’s invention itself hasn’t been so bad in real terms (except for the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, of course).
I’d suggest separating the question of whether a certain technology should have been developed from whether it was possible. For example, let’s suppose someone is dying of cancer and we have no way of saving them.
Do we want to save them? Yes
Can we save them? No
I would be very disappointed if people ended up concluding from our inability to save them that we didn’t actually want to save them anyway.
Similarly for nuclear weapons, the table may very well be:
Do we want to avoid them: Yes
Can we avoid them: No
Which is what I would suggest. Or if suppressing this research would have led to a poorer world it may be:
Do we want to avoid them: No
Can we avoid them: No
But I think it’s best to avoid conflating these two questions. Even if we think there’s nothing we can do, if we conflate that with “We wouldn’t want to stop or slow its development anyway” then we would likely refuse an opportunity to make a difference even if we were handed it on a silver platter.
I suppose it would be possible to argue that atomic research led to a richer world, but would question how big this impact really has been? Is it more than a couple of percent? And if not, is this really worth having nuclear apocalypse hanging over our heads? One potentially useful thought experiment: how much would someone have to pay you to convince you to play a game of Russian roulette[1]?
Sure, I didn’t mean to provide a full treatment of the “should it have been invented?” question. I just wanted to point out that there are many possible lines of reasoning:
It was impossible to suppress research on the bomb at all, e.g. someone in some private lab would eventually have invented it
It was possible to suppress research in one country, but impossible to coordinate all countries (especially in wartime); eventually some country would invent the bomb and gain a massive military and economic advantage over the others
It was possible to suppress research globally, but doing so would have dire moral consequences (e.g. require an authoritarian world government)
It was possible to suppress research globally in morally acceptable ways, but doing so would have prevented other useful innovations that were worth the risk (e.g. nuclear energy)
It was possible to suppress research and the specific outcomes of nuclear research weren’t worth it, but it would have created a progress-negative culture that would have destroyed much of humanity’s future potential
We could have suppressed research without dire consequences and simply failed to do so
Inventing the nuclear bomb was Good, Actually
These are not necessarily exhaustive. To me the most compelling is number 2, although nuclear non-proliferation since the cold war has shown that we can coordinate to a large extent, so maybe 6 is true or would have been if there had been no WWII.
I expect that 2 is true as well and so it made sense to invent the bomb before another less responsible country, but if we could have waved a wand prevented the invention of nukes then I think it would have been worthwhile even if it cost us nuclear energy or slowed global progress.
I mean, a lot of people oppose progress for pretty silly and not really thought out reasons, but as far as reasons go, “We invented/almost invented something that could potentially have killed everyone on earth” seems like not a bad reason to slow things down for a bit and reflect.
I think there’s likely to be a bit more tension between EA of today and Progress Studies vs. EA of the past.
The EA of the past was much more focused on global development (progress = good), whilst EA is currently undergoing a hard pivot towards long-termism, most notably bio-risk and ai-risk (progress = bad). Actually, the way I’d frame it is more about the importance of ensuring differential progress rather than progress in general. And I don’t know how optimistic I am about Progress Studies heading that direction because thinking about progress itself is hard enough and differential progress would be even harder.
I’m quite involved in EA, so I’m probably biased towards thinking EA will be more influential than it may very well turn out to be. EA has built up a lot of infrastructure, including 80,000 Hours, EA Globals and student groups at top universities; and a huge number of new projects launched this year. Progress Studies may be able to replicate that, but it remains to be seen.
One of the main issues I have with economic approaches to knowledge production like Romer’s is that they approach Knowledge as a singular entity that produces an aggregate economic output, as opposed to a set of n knowledges that each have their own output curves. In practice (and in the technological forecasting lit), there’s a recognition of this fact in the modelling of new technologies as overlapping S-curves:
The S-curve approach recognizes that there is a point where the ROI for continued investment in a particular technology tapers off. So this means that we don’t run out of Ideas, we just overinvest in exploitation of existing ideas until the cost-to-ROI ratio becomes ridiculous. Unfortunately, the structure of many of our management approaches and institutions are built on extraction and exploitation of singular ideas, and we are Very Bad at recognizing when it’s necessary to pivot from exploit to explore.
Even worse, this is not only true for the structure of our industrial-commercial research, but for our basic research apparatus as well. Grants are provided on the basis of previous positive results, as opposed to exploration of net-new areas—resulting in overexploitation of existing ideas and incentivized research stagnation.
In practice, you can think of it like this comic...
except instead of a circle, our knowledge distribution looks like this
Thanks. I generally agree with all these points, but do they change any of the conclusions? These complexities aren’t represented in the models because, well, they would make the models more complex, and it’s not clear we need them. But if it made a crucial difference, then I’m sure this would get worked into the models. (It’s actually not uncommon to see models that break out different variables for each invention or product, it’s just that those details don’t end up being important for high-level summaries like this.)
As with any metric, it comes down to what you’re looking to diagnose—and whether averages across the total system are a useful measure for determining overall health. If someone had a single atrophied leg and really buff arms, the average would tell you they have above-average muscle strength, but that’s obviously not the whole story.
Same goes for innovation: if idea production is booming in a single area and dead everywhere else, it might look like the net knowledge production ecosystem is healthy when it is not. And that’s the problem here, especially when you factor in that new idea production is accelerated by cross-pollination between fields. By taking the average, we miss out on determining which areas of knowledge production need nurturing, which are ripe for cross-pollination, and which are at risk of being tapped out in the near future. And so any diagnostic metric we hope to create to more effectively manage knowledge ecosystems has to be able to take this into account.
The most exciting prospect here, imo, is building capacity to identify underresearched and underinvested foundational knowledge areas, filling those gaps, and then building scaffolding between them so they can cross-pollinate. And doing this recursively, so we can accelerate the pace of knowledge production and translation.
Would want to keep any agenda specific enough to drive outcomes, but not too specific as to turn people off from petty disagreements. Balance it at some middle level of abstraction, and make it very straightforward/logical that the agenda leads to progress. What are the different areas an agenda could cover?
Specific technologies—as you mentioned, something like “progress is good. energy allows more progress. cheaper energy allows more energy. nuclear is cheaper energy. nuclear is good ⇒ promote nuclear”
Media—definitive stance on pro-progress media (books, videos, podcasts, memes, movies, etc.) and what makes something “pro-progress”
Regulation—hypotheses with lots of data on specific regulations that, if removed or revisited, would increase progress
“Would want to keep any agenda specific enough to drive outcomes, but not too specific as to turn people off from petty disagreements.”
I think unfortunately, this is the equivalent of eating your cake and having it too. Progress studies, if it’s actionable, largely is going to impact into the political world (because we want to do xyz things, which government has some presence in, to accelerate the pace of progress), so disagreement is going to exist.
For instance, you mention regulations that “if removed or revisited” would increase progress. Two areas that come to mind for me are housing construction and nuclear regulation—but these are contentious, political topics. If we actually want to achieve real-world things here, I think specificity is unfortunately required.
Do you think that you could significantly improve the prospects of nuclear power if you were commissioner of the NRC? or would you be too constrained by politics and other rules?
If you think it would be impactful to have a progress-minded person running the NRC, then convincing the current commissioner or getting the right person appointed seems like an important and even tractable agenda item.
A single commissioner would be too constrained I think. It’s not just the NRC holding back nuclear: it’s also state-level restrictions, the Yucca Mountain problem, environmental review, community opposition, etc.
Kwasi Kwarteng, UK Business & Energy Secretary and MP for Spelthorne:
We need more nuclear! Today I’m launching our £120m Future Nuclear Fund to entice more developers to invest £billions in new power stations. More nuclear developers = greater competition = lower costs. After 30 years of delay, we’re cracking on!
I think TFP is not really ideas. It is deployment of production methods. New ideas give us new production methods, but they don’t really help us deploy them. For deployment, we need a lot of effort (1% inspiration, 99% perspiration) and also high-quality institutions.
How do you explain the TFP drop in Venezuela? Did they suddenly lose a bunch of ideas? No, their institutions deteriorated and their deployed production methods declined in quality.
Same in the US. The creation of the NRC reduced the quality of the production methods we could deploy. NEPA too. Lots of other things one could cite. Simply letting us use the ideas we already have as effectively as possible would increase TFP significantly.
So explaining your three data points:
Institutions really improved pretty significantly over the last 1000 years (Magna Carta, reductions in violence), leading to superexponential growth.
At a very crude level, the basic framework of economic institutions have been mostly static over your second period, leading to plain exponential growth. (NB: to make this fit, I would start counting after the end of slavery, and still would not wish to deny the importance of improvements in social institutions leading to greater racial and gender equality).
Since 1970, our legal and economic institutions have declined in quality somewhat, leading to slower TFP growth. Mystery solved.
Another way to put it is: are ideas getting harder to use? We know that if we put the magic rocks together, they get hot and can be used to generate steam and electricity. But if we’re not allowed to make effective use of that information, it screws us almost as much as if we didn’t have it in the first place.
I think that story fits, too. And Romer/Jones would seem to be sympathetic as well. From the “New Kaldor Facts” paper mentioned above (emphasis added):
There is very broad agreement that differences in institutions must be the fundamental source of the wide differences in growth rates observed for countries at low levels of income, and for the low income and TFP levels themselves. In any model, bad institutions will distort the usage of rival inputs like labor and capital (Abhijit V. Banerjee and Esther Duflo 2005; Diego Restuccia and Richard Rogerson 2008; Chang-Tai Hsieh and Klenow 2009). Our point is that one must allow for the possibility that they also distort the adoption and utilization of ideas from leading nations. The potential for ideas to diffuse across countries can significantly amplify the effects of institutions.
The interaction between institutions and idea flows is easy to illustrate in familiar contexts. For example, until 1996, opponents successfully used the local permit process to keep Wal-Mart from building stores or distribution centers in Vermont. This kept Wal-Mart’s powerful logistics ideas, such as cross-docking, from being used to raise productivity in retailing in the state. Such nonrival ideas must have been at least partly excludable. This is why Wal-Mart was willing to spend resources developing them, and why competitors were not able to copy them. All this fits comfortably in the default model of endogenous discovery of ideas as partially excludable nonrival goods.
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The pure public good approach also makes it very difficult to address one of the most striking episodes in modern history. By about 1300 AD, China was the most technologically advanced country in the world, with a large integrated population. According to the Lee model, it should have persisted indefinitely as the world technology leader. The explosive dynamics of the virtuous circle between population and ideas suggests that such technological leads should never be lost. Only a remarkable and persistent failure of institutions can explain how China fell so far behind Europe. A model in which institutions can stifle innovation could explain why China lost the lead, but it takes a model in which institutions can also stop inflows of ideas from the rest of the world to explain why, for more than 500 years, ideas developed in the west were not more systematically adopted in China.
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There is much interesting work that tries to explain why inefficient institutions can persist and why efficient institutions can be difficult to establish (Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson 2006; Avner Greif 2006; Douglass C. North, John Joseph Wallis, and Barry R. Weingast 2009). As that work progresses, it seems reasonable to insist that models of growth and development allow for the possibility that political and regulatory institutions like those used in Vermont can sometimes be used in different countries to keep out technologies like cross-docking. At the other extreme, it also seems reasonable to allow for the possibility that in some countries (think of Haiti or Somalia as extreme cases) ideas like cross-docking are sometimes not brought into a country because its institutions cannot assure even the most basic elements of personal security and protection of private property.
I am curious to hear from people who are skeptical of the crucial role of institutions, or who ignore it, and I’m curious what evidence would resolve the disagreement.
That would make a good topic for a separate post/debate somewhere! In any case, the models discussed here don’t have terms for institutions, so clearly there is something important they’re not yet capturing…
Veil of Ignorance (Rawls) construction of social justice ignores technological change. Perhaps individual incentives, and consequent inequality, are necessary for economic growth and tech innovation.. an empirical question!
The Hypothesis Fund advances scientific knowledge by supporting early stage, innovative research that increases our adaptability against systemic risks to the health of people and the planet.
We make seed grants to fund research projects at their earliest stages, typically before there is any preliminary data. Our funding is intended to be catalytic — a fast path to enable a scientist to ‘turn over the card’ and see what’s there. And we focus on bold new ideas in basic research, not continuations of existing research.
The Hypothesis Fund approach is different. We empower a world-class and diverse network of scientist Scouts to identify the high-risk, high-reward ideas at the edge of the network that would otherwise be un-pursued or underfunded.
I was once asked, if I could take a time machine and make one change to the course of history, what would I do? And my immediate response was: I would go back to ancient Greece and try to stop the Peloponnesian Wars.
Basically the exact same thing I said a few days ago! Possibly the thing to do would have been to convince the Athenians to listen to Alcibiades just before the battle of Aegospotami, when Athens lost most of its fleet.
One thing I’d like to see is a discussion of the potential for measurement error. For example, software is notably deflationary yet we don’t see that in the statistics due to how we count. (We still don’t really know how to value the contribution of software to GDP.) Bloom (2020) may just be measuring the wrong outputs for the current type of progress. For example, if publications or patents are a weaker signal for ideas than in the past, the methodology breaks down.
I agree in general about the measurement challenge. However, one strength of Bloom (2020) is that they look at a variety of areas using different metrics: Moore’s law, agricultural productivity, etc. (They don’t really look at patents, in part because it’s hard to know what patents mean/represent.) In any case, it’s not just GDP. The fact that there are similar patterns across different metrics is evidence that there’s something real going on.
Holden Karnofsky and Scott Alexander go further, albeit with less solid quantitative support, and extend the pattern to art and general human accomplishment. E.g., here’s Scott (this comes right after the block quote above):
Or: what about human excellence in other fields? Shakespearean England had 1% of the population of the modern Anglosphere, and presumably even fewer than 1% of the artists. Yet it gave us Shakespeare. Are there a hundred Shakespeare-equivalents around today? This is a harder problem than it seems – Shakespeare has become so venerable with historical hindsight that maybe nobody would acknowledge a Shakespeare-level master today even if they existed – but still, a hundred Shakespeares? If we look at some measure of great works of art per era, we find past eras giving us far more than we would predict from their population relative to our own. This is very hard to judge, and I would hate to be the guy who has to decide whether Harry Potter is better or worse than the Aeneid. But still? A hundred Shakespeares?
Good point, though I don’t find looking at a selection of areas as too convincing. I could just as easily choose areas with consistent exponential growth that I would guess don’t look like this, like solar panels or genome sequencing. Even if things were getting better on average you would expect some things to get less efficient over time too. (for example, think about that inflation components chart people share all the time)
One last thing: we would probably want to look at output and not inputs. Robert Gordon’s sort-of nemesis, Chad Syverson, has done work on how some big super-trends take a long time to develop and even have an impact on the world, like steam rail and electricity. Might be worth looking into as a counterpoint to the Gordon thesis.
Well, the point of a lot of this is to look at outputs as a function of inputs. That is what Bloom 2020 is looking at. You need some measure of inputs (they basically use R&D spending, deflated by the wage rate) and some measure of output (GDP, transistor density, crop yields, etc.) and then you figure out the quantitative relationship.
If solar panels or genome sequencing don’t look like this, that would be very interesting! My guess would be that they do.
I’ve followed your work on Construction Physics, Brian, and I’ve enjoyed it immensely and learned a ton!
Some thoughts:
One of the recurring points you bring up is that construction is limited in cost savings due to the transportation costs—building materials are generally heavy and have low value-to-weight ratios, so centralized manufacturing doesn’t help nearly as much as it does in other industries. That being said, do you see a solution space where the brick-making machine (including kiln if necessary) can itself be brought to the jobsite, with the material being sourced from super-local dirt/clay? I’m picturing almost a portable manufacturing pipeline, where a digging machine feeds dirt into a mixer, which deposits material into a brick mold which is then fired. The resulting bricks are assembled via robots.
Do you think an alternative to mortar could be found? Perhaps a solid resin of some sort that is laid between bricks during placement, and then heated into a liquid and cooled back solid to bond with the bricks?
Do you think the market for automated bricklaying is going to disappear as 3D printing buildings becomes more common/economical?
Re: portable brick machine, I think automation would have to advance a lot before something like this ended up being cost effective (and the resulting automation could probably do a lot of other, more interesting things than just “assemble bricks”)
Re: mortar, folks are already doing this (this is what fastbrick robotics uses, basically)
Re: 3D printing, I don’t think this is especially likely, mostly because people want brick specifically because of how it looks—it’s already a sort of cost-inefficient system that people choose for the aesthetics. Adding another system to the mix doesn’t seem like it would change this calculus, even in the event it becomes super efficient (which seems unlikely to me).
The first time I heard about IPAT my reaction was, “well, population, affluence and technology are all good things, so… if impact is the product of them, it seems pretty great?” (Tongue in cheek.)
If you haven’t read it already, ‘Where’s my Flying Car’ is basically a direct answer to the question you pose here. Hall has scientific, technological, political, and cultural analyses of several possibly impactful technologies like flying cars, nuclear energy, nanotech, etc.
I know it but it’s still pretty specific to the technologies and products the author is interested in. I’m more interested in a general question of: there are a number of technologies where the implementation barriers seem nontechnical, and it seems like it’s getting worse. Curious why.
He uses specific case studies but the book definitely synthesizes general principles which can explain the nontechnical barriers in many technologies. Things like ‘failures of nerve’ and imagination and ‘the Machiavelli effect’ are illustrated with cases but are applicable to a wide range of technologies. Jason’s summary is great but I really think you would enjoy the book. It’s fun to read, not too long, and I think it is the most comprehensive answer to your question out there right now.
Consider the following simple exercise. An economist living in the year 1929 (who has miraculous access to historical per capita GDP data) fits a simple linear trend to the natural log of per capita GDP for the United States from 1880 to 1929 in an attempt to forecast per capita GDP today, say in 1987. How far off would the prediction be? We can use the prediction error from this constant growth rate path as a rough indicator of the importance of the positive permanent movements in growth rates.
Figure I displays the somewhat surprising result of this exercise in light of the discussion of endogenous growth theory in the Introduction: the prediction is off by only about 5 percent of GDP!
The premise isn’t exactly right here. There are venture backed companies that primarily develop and license IP, like Qualcomm, ARM, and RAMBUS. Plus, like, the entire biopharma industry. Sometimes companies make spinoffs that just hold IP for joint ventures with other companies. So this does happen; there just needs to be infrastructure to use the IP, like people to manage the licensing process and a corporation to actually hold the IP, since it always needs to be assigned to someone (IP cannot legally exist in the ether). Investors do also sometimes take royalties in exchange for funding, which is like taking a stake in a patent.
What is true is that this isn’t quite institutionalized in the sense that there aren’t patent funds that just invest in patents. The closest is companies that acquire patents, like Intellectual Ventures. Note that in all of these instances there is a lot of diversification; you probably will attract investment in an ongoing R&D effort that monetizes through patents more so than just a patent itself, even in the above examples.
I think the reason for this is that the risk/reward profile isn’t there. Inventions have the same risk regardless of monetization method, but you have less control in the outcome if you just get an interest in a patent since so much of the commercial success has to do with other things which require people. Plus your margins will be higher but your revenue will be lower.
The rules were never supposed to apply to extremely low CAPEX industries like software, however—hence why “abstract ideas” were excluded from intellectual property law and are often negotiated and renegotiated in the courts as incumbent monopolies and patent trolls try to use regulatory capture to maintain their status.
I definitely agree that a bigger difference between original investment costs and copying costs makes patents more beneficial, but all of the criticisms I pointed out still apply. The Pharma industry spends billions on patent courts and lobbying. This has to be subtracted from the benefits that they provide, in addition to all the welfare losses from super expensive name-brand drugs.
What do you think about using prizes or direct subsidies for high CAPEX projects instead of IP?
In a more meta sense, I wonder if it is possible to have patents only for high CAPEX industries. It may be that the lobbying forces will inevitably push to expand the reach of patents, and one cannot separate the benefits of high CAPEX patents from the costs of low CAPEX ones.
Patents are a necessary part of motivation to commercialize in high-CAPEX industries
Pharma companies take advantage of regulatory capture and abuse the IP system to eke out longer exclusivity periods than are typically allowed by law (e.g. making negligible changes and repatenting a drug); this has been a net drain on innovation
No cap, benchmark, or standard on biotech pricing has allowed companies to slowly ramp up pricing far beyond what is considered reasonable (e.g. the gradual ramp-up to a Million Dollar Pill)
Prizes and direct subsidies already exist for high-CAPEX projects and are also a crucial part of the system as it exists today. Almost all biopharma research starts out as state-funded work out of universities or NIH, until it reaches a point where it’s ready for trials and gets spun out into a business. The trials themselves are then often further subsidized. There’s a lot of work and money that has to go into making biotech viable just because of how little we understand about fundamental biology.
Patents are much more useful in high-CAPEX industries, but I wouldn’t call them necessary. There have been expensive capital investments without patent protection, even if they are not common.
Agree here.
’Reasonable” does a lot of work here. Economists usually define reasonable as price = marginal cost and the whole goal here is to raise price high above that level. But the point is well taken that there is more consternation over pharma pricing than is justified.
This is sort of an orthogonal point but I think the reliance of pharma on patents is an example of the “break your leg and give you a crutch” strategy that the government often takes. A huge part of the CAPEX that goes into pharma development is going through FDA approval. So if that process is not going to change, patents are essential for further pharma development. But in some lassiez-faire counterfactuals I think we could get more pharma development even without IP protection.
I think that prizes could replace the incentives of patents without most of the negative second order effects that I pointed out. Theoretically you could just match the monopoly profit with a subsidy, get the efficient quantity produced, and there are some mechanisms for dispersing the cash which avoid the rent dissipation.
I have to say the this this notion of induced demand is one of the single dumbest notions I’ve ever heard in my entire life.… If adding roads just increases traffic, why don’t we delete them and decrease traffic? I think you’d have an uproar if you did that.
For folks interested in this topic, I found “Air Conditioning America” a good complement to this book. It covers a narrower period of time (from 1900 to 1960), and it’s more academic, but it goes into quite a bit more depth than “Cool” does.
The returns to patents follows a power law distribution (PLD), just as VC-backed companies do, but it is even more extreme. The exponent for VC-backed startups is close to but just under 2*, it seems, while Nordhaus writes that the exponent for the return to patents is between 1.3 and 1.7**.
I don’t have an answer to your question! But it has always struck me that venture capital returns should cluster just below the PLD alpha of 2. This value is important because when you calculate the mean of the PLD, it goes to infinity as alpha goes to 2. (This means that if venture capital follows a PLD, and if the alpha is less than 2, and if there is no tail-off, that the mean return on a company would approach infinity. Each single return is finite, of course, but the more companies you invest in, the higher the mean return you will get.)
There is also some evidence (Neumann, op cit) that VCs can choose their alpha. That early-stage investors choose a slightly lower alpha than later-stage investors and that private equity investors choose an alpha greater than 2.
Alpha, besides determining the average of the PLD, also determines its variance. The lower the alpha, the higher the variance. The variance, in turn, is a useful measure of investment risk.
So, a hunch: as you lower the alpha of the PLD you choose to invest in, you increase both risk and mean return. But when the alpha goes below 2, mean return goes to infinity. There’s no point in going any lower.
Of course, a portfolio of patents should approach infinity faster than a portfolio of startups (meaning you would need fewer patents in the portfolio to expect a desired return than you would need startups) but this is misleading: the lower alpha PLD has a longer tail, offset by a bigger base...any single pick from that distribution is likely to be worse, while that one single homerun is likely to be much better. So, in theory, you should expect a better return with a smaller portfolio than you would with startups, if you are optimizing to a specific overall return (say, 3x) then you would have to have a larger portfolio. (That is, you have fewer hits, though the hits are bigger.)
You can see this if you look at press releases of university tech-transfer offices. They often brag about that one patent that has been 90% of their return over their history.
If you are managing someone else’s money, you want to maximize your return, but you are also motivated to minimize your minimum return, so you can keep your job. In this case, you would need to build a really, really big portfolio of patents, much larger than the portfolio of startups you would need. You would also need more time for the patents to come to fruition. It’s not a stretch to see why, under these conditions, patents would primarily be funded by entities investing their own money (universities, large corporates, individuals, etc.)
** Several papers: Nordhaus, W.D., (1989). “Comment on Zvi Griliches’ ‘Patents: Recent Trends and Puzzles’”, Brookings Papers on Economic Activity: Microeconomics, pp.320-325; Scherer, F.M., Harhoff, D. & Kukies, J., “Uncertainty and the size distribution of rewards from innovation”, Journal of Evolutionary Economics 10, 175-200 (2000); Scherer, F.M., “The Size Distribution of Profits from Innovation”, Annales d’Economie et de Statistique, No. 49⁄50, (Jan-Jun 1998), pp. 496-516.
I think you are definitely on to something here. It’s definitely interesting how many different camps point to the mid seventies as the period where things started to go wrong. The term often used to describe the political ideology emerging in this period and coming to fruit fully with the election of Reagan would be “neoliberalism”. Often characterized as a distrust of centralized control, a laissez faire approach to governing, a dismantling of welfare and labor protections, and a defunding of things like research initiatives, It definitely seems like it was a turning point in our political mindset. The term is usually used to refer to both Republican leaders like Reagan and Bush and the Democrats of the era including Clinton and potentially even Obama. It also is closely tied to economic thinkers such as F. A. Hayek and Milton Friedman.
That said the term has a lot of baggage attached to it to the point where it may be less helpful than I would like it to be. I say this mostly due to how the term has been colored by the Marxists that often have used it. Obviously these Marxists have their own narrative drum to beat and this means finding unbiased resources on the era using this term might be difficult. I think validating that this era is indeed characterized by the traits often ascribed to neoliberalism is a worthwhile endeavor.
In recent years a new group of liberals have adopted the term for their movement and have said specifically that one thing that separates them from the original neoliberals is that the modern version is much more comfortable with technocracy (I can dig up the source for this if anyone is interested). So even the people who have adopted the term neoliberal seem to suggest that this era is characterized by a distrust of technocracy which seems like a solid sign for your overall theory.
I’m still trying to find a good source on this in text format. One good resource would be this recent podcast from the neoliberal project on what they believe.
VC works because making a startup can be extremely profitable. Making patents used to be quite profitable, but is that still the case? I can’t recall seeing someone make lots of money from their patent in recent years. (The exception is the pharmaceutical industry, where patents seem to de facto work differently than the rest of the economy. This industry does have financial mechanisms for incubating patentable innovations, which is fortunate because developing the patented products is ridiculously expensive.) When I hear about patents being used these days, it’s mostly as passive deterrence weapons in lawfare between giant corporations, or bad-faith patent trolls, and not as the basis of profitable production like you’d hear about in earlier times (again, except for pharmaceuticals).
So my guess is that something in the legal system changed to make patents not lucrative for most people, and the apparent lack of funding for patents is a rational response to that.
It’s probably worth noting that this could also just be because this pipeline doesn’t seem to exist. Like I know Peter Thiel comments that today a letter from Einstein would get lost in the mailroom of the white house.
Today, I could probably email HP the specs and proof of concept of a brand new kind of printer that printed an order of magnitude cheaper, was way easier to connect to, etc. And there’s little chance they’d see it or respond. I think discounting the possibility that this just doesn’t happen often because corporate bureaucracies aren’t set up to handle it probably shouldn’t be taken off the table.
And if the argument is more along the lines of “why have we not heard of a single person because surely it would have happened once?” The answer could likely be that once in a blue moon someone like IBM or NASA does take an idea from an absolute rando who they don’t hire to implement it, but then they NDA that rando and we don’t hear about him.
As I’ve thought about these shifts, one idea that keeps coming up for me is the idea of “the enemy / crisis”—there was a very clear enemy during technocrats birth (World Wars, Economic Crisis). The death happened essentially as the first generation without an “enemy / crisis” as their foundational story—and, as they weren’t driven by fear or the purpose of defeating the enemy, they are less likely to be willing to give power or listen to authority. Even Vietnam was a war that lacked a threat or enemy that resonated with the generation. If it was a real war with the Soviet Union (versus a proxy war), I imagine it would have looked quite different.
We can see this dynamic play out at a smaller scale after 9/11 -- support for the president surged and the government was given significantly more leeway than before.
In short, an idea is that technocracy was possible because multiple generations were raised with constant threats and enemies and thus had a larger willingness to cede power and stand behind a leader or elite. And, in the face of great victory, the leaders looked to build on the successes that brought victory—technological superiority—but were unable to keep focus & power without an enemy or crisis to crystalize a largely singular vision and purpose.
Here’s a thought for ya—it seems to me like you’re trying to make an inspirational kick in the pants for people to take action—fight entropy—and go through a handful of challenges that prevent people from acting (I picked out “hoplessness” and “safer to do nothing”). I think another challenge that might be good to address from a psych perspective is “Why me? Or “I don’t know the answer”—which is partially addressed in your piece with the idea that building is iterative and process driven (and you certainly don’t have all the answers on day one).
I’d also try to identify a single story for each of those, rather than having lots of examples that are touched on, but not really built out (Agriculture! Education! Ukraine! Healthcare! -- take the same space and build out one of those per idea).
Would love your or others’ thoughts on the revised draft linked above, and also copied below:
Death is the default
Subtitle: Why building is our safest way forward
In the early stages of starting a company, founders stare in the face of one of the stark realities of human existence: the fact that death is the default. Their product or service did not exist in the world before they started building it, and it will quickly fizzle back out of existence if they step away from it. It’s like those horrible, murderous villains in Dr. Who, the “Weeping Angles,” who stand still as long as you’re watching them, but rapidly close in on you the moment you so much as blink.
Or so it often feels, anyway. In fact, there are no murderous villains waiting to close in on you in the startup case; there are just the blind, indifferent forces of inertia and entropy. Most startups don’t die because someone is actively trying to kill them, but simply because the founders stop trying to keep them alive.
This state of affairs is by no means unique to founders. It is a literal law of nature that every living being must grapple with. As Steven Pinker reminds us in Enlightenment Now, the “first keystone in understanding the human condition is the concept of entropy”: the inexorable fact, captured by the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that left to its own devices, a system always moves toward stillness, randomness, and disorder. “Life and happiness depend,” he continues, “on an infinitesimal sliver of orderly arrangements of matter amid the astronomical number of possibilities… Far more of the arrangements of matter found on Earth are of no worldly use to us, so when things change without a human agent directing the change, they are likely to change for the worse.”
How the Enlightenment has numbed us to entropy
This is a difficult truth to keep hold of in our post-Enlightenment world. Thanks to the intrepid founders, scientists, and other innovators who have fought on the frontlines of the human fight against death and entropy for the past several centuries, many of us have been born into a world where living in relative health and comfort into our old age is the path of least resistance.
The accumulated fruits of human agency and creative problem-solving are so ubiquitous today—in the form of agriculture and modern medicine, electricity and air conditioning, Uber and Amazon, Google and iPhones, widespread literacy and constitutional government, bank loans and credit cards, Zoom and Facebook—that we tend to assume them as the natural default, or worse, blame them for any remaining problems they haven’t been able to solve.
Living with chronic or unexplained illness is enough of an anomaly today that a seemingly unremarkable Tweet reminding us “how big of a blessing it is to not have any health problems” drew 1.4 million likes overnight, with most of the replies expressing appreciation that someone put words to such a rarely stated sentiment. As we start to emerge from a global pandemic only to witness a bloody, unjust war in Ukraine, we feel we are living through what a recent Atlantic article called “the dreadful days”—forgetting, perhaps, that plagues and wars used to be the rule, not the exception, of human existence.
We build or we die
None of this is to say we shouldn’t regard pandemics or unjust wars as the disasters that they are, nor that we shouldn’t fight them with everything we’ve got. On the contrary, remembering that “death is the default” should mobilize us to fight them with everything we’ve got—recognizing that the one thing we’ve got, in the fight against entropy, inertia, and death, is our power of agency.
The power of agency is, in its essence, the power to build: to direct our intelligence toward the work of understanding the world and adapting it to our needs. It’s how we impose a purposeful order on nature’s chaos.
This is the power exemplified by the vaccine developers and other medical innovators who, quoting Pinker again (this time from Rationality), “identified the cause [of the COVID-19 virus] within days, sequenced its genome within weeks, and administered vaccines within a year, keeping its death toll to a fraction of those of historic pandemics.”
It’s also the power that’s on display in all the more local, mundane ways we apply our intelligence to the work of understanding and shaping our world every day: whenever we consciously select and prepare a meal for ourselves; whenever we arrange our living space in a thoughtful way; whenever we act upon our considered judgment, reached in consultation with trusted experts, about what will best serve the medical or educational or nutritional needs of our children; whenever we put in a solid day’s work at a job that helps us afford the time and materials required for these former.
And it’s the power we forfeit when we squander our mental and physical energy on lamenting how hopelessly broken the world is, or how hopelessly broken we are, because we’ve made wrong turns or haven’t found solutions to all of our problems yet.
An optimistic outlook
Counterintuitively, internalizing the perspective that “death is the default” leads to a more fundamentally optimistic and forgiving outlook on ourselves and our fellow human beings.
Whenever we find ourselves raging against the fact that there is still pain and suffering and hunger and sickness and injustice in the world, the underlying assumption is that these problems wouldn’t exist but for some human folly or malice; if only we’d stop being so greedy or so racist or so materialistic, we could all live in peace and harmony and never run out of food or shelter or high-quality healthcare again.
But if we actually take seriously the creative challenge of effecting any one of these outcomes, we quickly come to see that the failure to do so is not fundamentally a problem of malice or ill will; it’s a problem of not knowing how to effect them in the first place.
What we often take for granted is just how much human ingenuity, iterative experimentation, and messy trial-and-error has gone into generating whatever solutions we now take as “given.”
The way we’ve come this far toward reducing world hunger was not predominantly by curbing our voracious appetites; it was by developing the science and practice of agriculture. The way we’ve come this far in reducing the death toll of global pandemics was not predominantly by sheltering in place or social distancing; it was by developing the science and practice of immunology. And the way we’ve come this far in reducing the global impact of discrimination and violence is not predominantly by desisting from hatred; it was by devising complex social, political, and legal institutions that allow for peaceful cooperation among large and diverse groups of people.
As every founder and independent problem-solver knows, the work of building new solutions to heretofore-unsolved problems is messy, fallible, continuously iterative work. Sometimes we’re not even clear on the nature of the problem until we’ve already gone a ways toward solving it. When it comes to normative fields like education or psychology, simply agreeing on the problem—that is, on the ends we are trying to effect—is itself a Herculean challenge of philosophy and social science.
Meanwhile even a crappy education or middling mental health treatment is better, and sometimes literally more life-saving, than none; and the default, through most of human history, was none.
Entropy isn’t evil; it just is
Understanding that death, disorder, and chaos are the natural default can be paradoxically liberating. Many problems become more tractable, or at least less frustrating, if we approach them less as casualties of human folly and more as challenges of creative engineering.
For instance, it spares us from feeling aggrieved by the toxic, dysfunctional relationships in our lives, once we realize that the fundamental problem is rarely one of malicious intent; it’s that no one in the relationship has figured out how to make it work. This is why practical, skills-based communication technologies like Marshall Rosenberg’s Nonviolent Communication (NVC) or the Interpersonal Effectiveness skills from Marsha Linehan’s Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) are so game-changing for those who implement them: not because people never have ill intentions (this is something on which I disagree with both Linehan and Rosenberg), but because an effective system for building “win-win” relationships makes it far less tempting to resort to ill-intentioned “win-lose” tactics. Whatever their flaws, methodologies like NVC and DBT-IE offer ingeniously creative solutions to the complex problem of how to get everyone’s needs met in a relationship. I myself was too quick to dismiss such methodologies as “obvious” or “gimmicky” until after I’d repeatedly failed to solve the same problems on my own and found myself returning to them for guidance. If you’re not getting what you want from your relationships, you would do well to scour these methodologies for solutions you might not have tried yet.
The same applies in spades to dysfunctional institutions: whenever we bemoan the ineptitude of corporations or hospitals or government bureaucracies as though it were an injustice willfully inflicted upon us, we need to remember that the default is not well-functioning institutions; the default is no institutions at all. If you’re angry about the long hold when you call your airline to rebook a flight: do you know how you’d solve the problem of staffing customer service lines if you were the airline? Or if you’re angry at the wealthy people of the world for not using their billions to “end world hunger”: do you know how you’d go about solving this problem if you were a multibillionaire? For that matter, do you know how you would even determine whether this was the best cause to prioritize, given that this remains a topic of heated debate even among the most thoughtful and committed humanitarians?
Dysfunction, ineptitude, hunger, and death are not a personal affront or a divine punishment for wrongdoing; they are just nature doing its thing. Figuring out how not to die—whether as an individual or as a family or as an institution or as a culture—is our thing; it is a creative challenge afforded to us by the miracle of having escaped entropy for this long, and by the grace of all the fellow human builders who’ve gotten us this far.
Letting go of status quo bias: why building is the safer choice
By letting this perspective sink in, we can shift from blaming the problems of the world on human depravity to marveling at all the progress we’ve already made toward solving them—and taking ownership of the difficult, fallible, energy-intensive work of trying to move the needle a bit further.
Whether and how we take up this work is always a choice. It can be harder or easier depending on our circumstances, our natural endowments, and the size of our ambition, but it is never the default. Evolution furnished us with a unique capacity to regulate our own energy expenditure, including even our choice of whether and toward what ends we expend it. This means we have a limitless potential for sustaining and bettering our lives—and an equally limitless potential for squandering or destroying them.
Choosing to build doesn’t guarantee we’ll build the things we actually need, or that we’ll build them well enough or fast enough to stave off the forces of entropy; but refusing to build guarantees that we will fail to do so. In this light, the work of building is our best—nay, ultimately our only—defense against the entropic forces that threaten our survival and thriving.
And yet most of us act as if the opposite were true: as if the “safer” choice, all else being equal, is to maintain the status quo and to stick with what we’ve got, rather than bet on the possibilities of building something new.
While there’s debate about why so many people exhibit these “status quo” and “risk aversion” biases, one readily available observation is that they are manifest in our cultural messaging. The whole notion of Maslow’s hierarchy, as it’s commonly understood and invoked today, suggests we can’t afford the “luxury” of exercising our creative and intellectual powers when our basic needs are threatened; as if exercising these powers weren’t precisely what has allowed us to face down such threats throughout human history. We think of professional endeavors as “risky” in almost direct proportion to the extent that they involve building something new (a la working at a startup) versus maintaining the status quo (as people often assume, rightly or wrongly, of the “corporate” world).
The partial truth in these assumptions is that building something new is socially risky; insofar as you need to bring other people on board in order to build what you want to build (as, in our division of labor society, you almost certainly do), you’ll need to push through their status quo and risk aversion biases in addition to whatever other entropic forces you’re up against. This often means you need to fight harder for customers or gigs or investors or public recognition than someone who’s doing the more conventional thing.
But how big a risk is this, actually, when pitted against the risk of continued inaction and stagnation? To answer this question with any accuracy, we need to shed our complacent post-Enlightenment assumption that human health, happiness, freedom, employment, education, and flourishing are automatic, to-be-expected defaults, and recognize them instead for the hard-won human achievements that they are.
Even sans global pandemics and unjust wars, these achievements require ongoing maintenance, which, in a dynamic world subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, means ongoing innovation. The 20th century should have taught us just how easily we can sign away our own freedoms and undermine our own progress as a civilization when we don’t understand or appreciate these truths.
The psychological upshot: to stagnate is human, to build is divine
Taking this historical and philosophical view of the human condition provides an invaluable lens for our own individual decision-making. For instance, it implies that embracing a bias toward action as the overall less risky alternative to inaction, all else being equal. Once we fully internalize the perspective that “progress is not the default,” we see that the absolute riskiest route is often to do nothing at all: to keep languishing at a “safe” job instead of making the scary leap to something more fulfilling and financially rewarding in the long term; or to stay single and lonely or continue in a relationship we have outgrown, instead of putting yourself back out there.
Finally, by appreciating the often far deadlier risks that humanity’s builders have taken on the path to securing our present-day comfort and prosperity, we can also learn to recognize the work that any worthwhile achievement entails—including the mistakes and rejections, the false starts, the struggle, and even the pain. In a universe where quiet, passive death is the default, the so-called “tradeoff” between security and ambition is illusory. We can do no better to secure our health and comfort and that of future generations than by seeking that sublime height of human experience: the full application of our intelligence to difficult problems that matter.
I agree with distinctions between applied policy advocacy—with significant intellectual diversity of opinion—and conceptual advocacy, which is axiomatic to the field—the idea that progress is “real, desirable and possible”.
I wan to posit an addition flavor of study and applied advocacy, one that is human, rather than progress focused. It asks how we can help people (especially the early/late majority) adapt to increasing rates of progress and change and avoid the worst fates of progress losers. This rather sits squarely between applied and conceptual, likely employing conceptual tools like ‘widespread cultural agreement’ as well as specific policy analysis and advocacy.
A single example where this kind of understanding could have played a large role can be seen with the CDC’s COVID vaccination timelines that were frequently influenced by their opinions on public perception of their decisions, which seemed to lack scientific basis.
Beyond that, this advocacy has the potential to moderate many of the “anti-humanist” arguments put forth by both Adam & Jason.
So this is interesting because I have no clue if it exists. But it did!! This was the one and only thing the small R&D departments of large companies did in the US in the very early 1900s.
Tons and tons of home inventors/amateurs would submit patents/specs to them to look over. The department would assess their scientific/technical validity and think about if they could profitably use the invention.
If they could, they’d come to an agreement with the inventor who sent it in. And it was efficient because there was no expectation for the inventor to also start the business that built on their patent. The company that already had the scale and ability to do that just bought your idea and then you could go on to the next one.
This equilibrium started to dissipate some time around like 1920-ish very roughly as more and more companies built internal R&D teams that did actual research/contracted with university professors to do it.
But in general, I completely agree with you that this is a criminal market oversight if it doesn’t exist. And, more than that, it would just be cool and fun.
Interesting to think what changed in that time period. Ideas prior to 1900 or so would have been primarily mechanical, and the patent system was designed for this. Even though all patents represent ideas, ideas prior to the electrical age were about mechanical objects that could, perhaps, be instantiated in one best way. Ideas in the electrical age could probably be instantiated in many ways, making patents harder to enforce. And now, in the information age, the idea itself can be articulated in many ways, making patents somewhat useless for information-based products except as post-hoc bludgeons.
I don’t think ideas in the information age are any harder to articulate. I do think that it’s harder to identify patent theft, though. You don’t get to read the source code of a tech company, but if you buy a mechanical product, you can just open it up to see if they’re using your patent.
The early mechanisation was not of cotton, but of silk and wool. Cotton only looks so important in retrospect. You see huge silk-twisting factories in Piedmont in the 17thC already, with the methods then stolen and brought to the Netherlands in the 1680s, and to England by the 1710s.
It’s also worth bearing in mind that textile mechanisation takes many forms. It’s not just about spinning, but about carding, weaving, and more—e.g. stocking knitting was mechanised in the 1590s.
Now, looking at cotton specifically, textile historian John Styles points out that early spinning machines required cotton varieties with a longer staple, as characterised by the New World varieties (initially that from the Caribbean and Brazil, before the US South became a major source after 1800). Old World varieties from the Levant were of a shorter staple. What this means, however, is that cotton spinning mechanisation happened first with the more expensive cotton variety, not the cheaper one. Indeed, the 1760s-70s in general were when raw cotton prices were especially high.
References, and for further reading:
John Styles, ‘Re-Fashioning Industrial Revolution. Fibres, Fashion and Technical Innovation in British Cotton Textiles, 1600-1780’, in La Moda Come Motore Economico: Innovazione Di Processo e Prodotto, Nuove Strategie Commerciali, Comportamento Dei Consumatori / Fashion as an Economic Engine: Process and Product Innovation, Commercial Strategies, Consumer Behavior, ed. Giampiero Nigro, 1st ed. (Florence: Firenze University Press, 2022), 45–71.
John Styles, ‘Fashion, Textiles and the Origins of Industrial Revolution’, East Asian Journal of British History 5 (31 March 2016): 161–90.
John Styles, ‘The Rise and Fall of the Spinning Jenny: Domestic Mechanisation in Eighteenth-Century Cotton Spinning’, Textile History 0, no. 0 (15 January 2021): 1–42.
John Styles, ‘Fibres, Fashion and Marketing: Textile Innovation in Early Modern Europe’, in Cotton in Context: Manufacturing, Marketing, and Consuming Textiles in the German-Speaking World (1500-1900), ed. Kim Siebenhüner, John Jordan, and Gabi Schopf (Wien, Köln und Weimar: Böhlau Verlag, 2019), 35–60.
Good point about optimism. However, the examples used in the article show an underlying use of this mental mindset and dogma: stay productive and efficient (more than others do); use this highly effective mental mindset to generate more wealth, which in turn will trigger sustained economic growth. Well, the only criticism - and I do my best to keep it as constructive as possible—lies precisely in the paradoxical pessimism that a green, conscientious and socially aware mind will feel after reading the article. Do we really intend to use optimism as a tool to exploit our planet even more? Or to increase economic inequality by playing zero-sum games?
In a nutshell, my humble opinion is that we should use optimism in order to think of “progress” in a slightly different way. And if you think I’m naive, well, at least I’m being an optimist.
Very interesting that the initial impetus for air conditioning was production requirements, not human comfort. Similar to how the initial motivation for railroads (and really, most transportation innovations) was cargo, not passenger transport.
Nice! The bit about selling product in clear containers is interesting. There was a similar transition when plastics, I think particularly cellophane, were first introduced. Customers could see the product they were buying—particularly with food—and be more assured of its quality, without exposing the product to air (and germs). So many little things we take for granted.
Good question. I haven’t read anything indicating this, and of course the famous breakthrough in cotton productivity, Whitney’s cotton gin, was invented in 1793, well after textile mechanization was underway in Britain. So my guess is no. In fact, I’ve always sort of assumed that it was the other way around: efficiencies in later stages of the process created demand for higher productivity in earlier stages. Flying shuttle (1733) doubles the productivity of weavers, which creates more demand for thread; spinning machines (1760s) increase the productivity of thread-making, which creates more demand for unspun cotton; cotton gin (again, 1793) provides the cotton. But all that is based on a fairly superficial knowledge of the relevant history. (We should get Anton to weigh in.)
Another thought: cotton is not the only thread. If cotton had not been made cheap, might textile mechanization have taken off based on linen or wool?
Biography is a god example of a genre where you can study something and advocate for it simultaneously, and in good biography often they are the same thing. Advocating doesn’t have to mean apologising in this context. Simply explaining something properly and with the aim of increasing appreciation for all its elements so it becomes higher status for all its good and bad point is the best form of advocacy biography offers, with acceptance of fault or limitations. I think this is or should be an important part of progress studies. The best advocacy is inspirational to others!
One thing to keep in mind regarding measuring influence by numbers: Because EA started earlier, many EAs will be further into executing their plans. As an example, someone who is a student in 2020 at a top university, might be a senior manager by 2030.
Re movie franchises and cinematic universes, I see it as a branding issue analogous to food/beverage chains. If I see a Starbucks, I know what to expect, I know whether or not it’s the kind of thing I like, and I can count on a certain level of quality. A boutique coffee shop might be better than Starbucks, but I’m taking a chance.
Similarly, if I go to see a Marvel movie, I know what to expect, etc. Whereas if I see some other movie, even if I know it’s in the action/adventure or superhero genre, I’m taking more of a chance.
The only thing that I wonder is why it took the movie studios so long to figure out that when they have a winner, they should keep milking it. There are some examples in the past, such as the James Bond series, but it seems much more of a known strategy now. (Like, after the first wildly successful Star Wars trilogy, it took 15+ years to make another one. And I don’t think there were any movies outside the main story line until Disney took over.)
Not that this contradicts any of your analysis; in fact I think it dovetails with what you’ve said here.
Agree that franchises are fundamentally about branding!
But I think it’s not just that it took movie studios a long time to learn that branding was effective. I think the strategy only became very effective in the new environment where there were lots of choices for consumers. One way to think of it is to assume that consumers rely on two pieces of information when making a judgment about which movie they will most enjoy: word-of-mouth and similarity to other movies they’ve seen and enjoyed.
When the number of movies is small, enough people see every movie that word-of-mouth is a very reliable guide to the quality of a movie. Here, I’m thinking word-of-mouth is from people you already know well, and so you can judge their taste. Like in a small town, everyone knows the artisanal coffee shop, and so Starbucks isn’t desirable. But when the number of movies is really large, word-of-mouth is not very reliable. You never know more than one or two people who have seen any movie, and even fewer who have seen more than one that you’re choosing between.
In the latter environment, you start to give more weight to the similarity of a movie to other movies you’ve seen. And that creates a feedback loop, because if more people start choosing to go to movies based on their similarity to other movies, then you can only get accurate word-of-mouth information about those kinds of movies (franchises). In the second environment, it starts to pay more to make movies that are similar to existing movies, even if they not be as good as the best original movies. In the second equilibrium, the problem is that the really good original movies can’t be identified, and so they languish at the box office.
Stuart, I’m not seeing how it is a conflict per se to prescribe actions that would generate progress and also study what has worked to generate progress.
In the example you give, certain advocates of charter or public schools skew research on what creates valuable opportunities for children when they give advice. But the problem is that their true objective function isn’t aligned with their stated objective function. They claim their goal is to advance opportunities for children, but what they really want is to promote or impede charter schools. So they skew their advice in service of their real motive while couching it in terms of their stated motive.
This could happen in progress studies as well. Suppose a progress studier’s true commitment is not really to progress, but rather to libertarianism or leftism. Then they might put forward policy solutions in the language of progress studies that actually advance their other political commitment at the expense of progress. We should be wary of this.
Yet to fully separate the functions of research and advocacy will never work. It may be fine if there are at least a few people working in ivory towers who are solely studying what works to produce progress. But things immediately get muddier when you introduce any advocacy at all. Suppose I tried to be a pure advocate, and that my true goal is to advocate for policies that advance progress. Where am I supposed to find these policies? Probably I will need to read a lot of stuff on what works to drive progress. Even if there is a well-functioning pure academic progress studies community, I would at minimum need to read a lot of the papers and evaluate the literature, essentially doing my own meta-analysis. That’s basically research. Given the current state of the field, advocates probably have to go even deeper than just this minimum level of research.
I think I could accept some softer claims.
1. It would be good if there were at least a few people who as pure academics study what works to produce social progress. These people could serve as a check on advocates misconstruing research to advance some other agenda. 2. We should be attentive to the fact that as a movement becomes politically successful people might use the language of that movement to push for other goals. This matches the charter schools example, using the language of opportunities for children to drive an ideological victory for or against charter schools.
Curious to know if you or anyone thinks I’m missing anything important here.
Those are all fair points, and I might have phrased things a little too strongly in the original post.
I do think the education example is interesting, though, because both “sides” (if you will) are convinced that they are the only ones who truly care about improving children’s education. The problem is that they’re confusing means and ends.
To me, whether it’s progress studies or education or whatever, there needs to be a significant number of academically-minded folks who agree with the end of improving progress or improving education, but who are resolutely agnostic about the means of doing that, and who are willing to follow the data wherever it leads (including being willing to admit when something doesn’t work, or backfires, or has other unintended consequences or tradeoffs).
Hey Ben! I loved this. Particularly the anecdotes about Boulton and the early and late life of Edison Electric.
Since reading the Edison biography, something I’ve been thinking about is whether or not someone could start a modern-day R&D lab the way Edison did. Like I understand that it would be atypical, but I feel like someone with a particular set of skills and the ability to execute (whose mind also moves a mile a minute the way weird minds do) should be able to.
There are certain technical problems, that if solved, are either worth a ton of money as their own company or just licensing the IP to existing players in the field.
As a concrete example: What if one started an R&D lab dedicated to making superforecasting as effective as possible. You’re working on trying to figure out what you can and can’t predict, how to make your best predictors even better, and how to communicate these predictions in as clear a way as a consultant would communicate in a deck. At that point, your services could be worth huge amounts to companies trying to make projections and hedge funds trying to make trades. Or you could start a hedge fund yourself.
Why do little applied research shops like that, with clear commercial applications in a medium amount of time once some expertise is built up, not exist? Are people just not doing it or is there a structural reason? Any ideas?
There are of course tons and tons of R&D labs working on things with medium-term commercial applications, and the question is why so few of them get results as good as Edison’s. More recent examples of hyperproductive labs like Xerox PARC, DARPA, and early Google suggest that this is still entirely possible, but it also seems difficult, fragile, and unlikely to maintain extreme productivity once the founder’s attention is elsewhere. I haven’t looked into these labs very deeply, but my understanding is that they all depended on a very specific culture which has never been made fully explicit and generally can’t be replicated despite a number of attempts. This is usually a clue that someone with a rare combination of skills is engineering the social structure and troubleshooting idiosyncratic problems as they arise. (Compare to the stream of new practices in e.g. education that start off showing extreme potential but regress to the mean as soon as they scale past the visionary founder’s personal management capacity.)
I’d be skeptical of the superforecasting lab specifically, because while these labs full of tinkerers have a very good track record for producing physical tech, offhand I can’t think of a single good social tech that was developed in a lab built for that purpose. Probably better to have a few institutions try making internal prediction markets to guide real decisions, and see how it works. (IIRC Hanson has tried to get this to happen?)
A tour of Futures gives little to no hint (a) that America has again returned to manned space flight; (b) that Musk’s SpaceX, not NASA, is responsible for a historic reduction in launch costs that could revolutionize manned exploration and space economics; (c) that there’s renewed global interest in nuclear power, and major advances being made in nuclear fusion and geothermal; (d) that there’s this revolutionary genetic editing technology called CRISPR that could do wonders for human health and lifespans; (f) that technologies such as carbon capture and geoengineering, not to mention nuclear and geothermal energy sources, provide a pro-abundance way of dealing with climate change; and, most inexplicably perhaps, (g) that breakthrough mRNA vaccines have blunted the current pandemic and hold huge potential to create super-vaccines for the coronavirus and other viruses. What’s more, there’s no recognition from Futures that economic growth and technological innovation have prevented those dire, 1970s scenarios from happening.
In other words, there’s an alternate image of the future — global, materially and energy abundant, market-oriented, multi-planetary — that Futures almost totally ignores. It’s an image that was widespread before the scarcity-driven 1970s. And it’s an image we should be thinking about again and getting excited about — perhaps for the first time since the 1960s and Apollo. But too much of Futures is trapped in the anachronistic “Small is Beautiful” mindset that is obsessed with resource scarcity, deeply skeptical of markets, rejects “consumerism,” accepts only solar and wind as legitimate energy sources, and views space as an expensive distraction from dealing with problems here on Earth. It’s not exactly a pessimistic vision of tomorrow, just a terribly crimped and unambitious one. And to me, not at all inspiring. What an opportunity the Smithsonian had — and utterly squandered.
This is a great contrast — I’m hoping to make it out to see this in person. I’m curious to learn what happened here that caused the Smithsonian to take such a limited view.
Thanks Cameron! So excited about this project and your vision for it.
I also liked Anton Howes’s idea for a new Fair:
So what would a modern-day exhibition of industry look like today? We would have to imagine all of today’s specific industry fairs, combined. Like the popular Consumer Electronics Show, but for everything. A place where visitors would actually get to see drone deliveries in action, take rides in a driverless car, experience the latest in virtual reality technology, play with prototype augmented reality devices, see organ tissue and metals and electronics being 3D-printed, and industrial manufacturing robots in action. They would have a taste of lab-grown meat at the food stalls, meet cloned animals brought back from extinction, perform feats of extraordinary strength wearing the exoskeletons used in factories, fly in a jet-suit, and listen to panel interviews with people who have experienced the latest in medical advancement. Perhaps a commercial space launch using the latest technology might be timed to coincide with the event, to be livestreamed on a big screen for all visitors to see. Visitors would naturally meet the inventors and scientists and engineers who developed it all, too.
Visitors would browse the latest in fashion, art, and architecture from all over the world, seeing them alongside historical examples, with the whole event housed in a building made using the latest advancements in materials and construction technology — just as the glass of the Crystal Palace gleamed in comparison to the soot-covered brick of 1851 London, or the iron entrance to the 1889 Exposition Universelle loomed high above Paris (now known as the Eiffel Tower). I actually can’t even fathom what it would have to look like, to inspire the same kind of awe. And the whole thing would, of course, be powered using only the cutting edge of clean energy technology, much like how the great new Corliss Engine drove the 1876 Centennial Exhibition in Philadelphia, or how Westinghouse’s alternating current powered the 1893 Chicago World’s Fair. Perhaps the event might even be made carbon-negative, by demonstrating the latest technology to remove carbon from the atmosphere.
Thanks for resurfacing Anton’s piece as well. He did a great job of highlighting some of the specifics. It’s super important that the Fair promote a sense of agency—that visitors of all types can see someone like them building the future. As Anton writes “Visitors would naturally meet the inventors and scientists and engineers who developed it all, too.”
Nice post. Yes, Fabian’s paper is brilliant. IIRC, in a separate paper, he uses the same shock to study peer effects and finds no impact, which seems completely robust but simultaneously bizarre.
I’m supposed to be studying for my final qualifying exams but talk of physical capital is too enticing… A couple of related papers you may find interesting:
Baruffaldi and Gaesller have a brilliant working paper looking at the more recent impacts of physical capital destruction. Like Fabian, they also have a great source of exogeneity—the accidental destruction of physical capital from natural disasters. The take-home is that specialised capital is particularly harmful in the long run (side note, the paper’s sheer data collection is remarkable!).
Helmers and Overman (2016) also demonstrate the large impact of physical capital using the runner-up location of the Diamond Light Source synchrotron in the UK.
I’m in the early stages of working on some ideas around the importance of physical capital. It would be good to chat at some point.
This first paper, by B&G, is such a fascinating piece of data collection work. You’re absolutely right. Do you have any rough guesses on how much of the issue is building a course of research on niche capital itself vs. the kind of person who does that kind of thing. I’m sure they both have an effect. I ask because I would be not shocked if the hypothesis, “People usually only pursue a course of research that requires specialized equipment if they are extremely dedicated to that problem over all others/that is an area of clear comparative advantage to them and they don’t believe they can contribute as much to other areas.”
That might be mere conjecture though and I’m not one to lend too much credibility to personal hunches without evidence. Do you think there’s any work that can help us think through that question? Even if tangentially. As much as it can feel like it sometimes, a paper does not exist for everything.
One thing I wonder about: how much of the “brains” setback was due to it being from an evil, self-imposed policy? That is, the bombing was a sort of random, external factor. But the expulsion of the Jews was a conscious policy from the regime. If the scientists had randomly died of disease or something, instead of being deliberately kicked out, would the effect have been similar?
Hmmmmm this is particularly interesting because, if the setback was really a recruiting problem, it breaks the problem down in a way I hadn’t thought about. Because when most people deal with this question they treat it as kind of a “are there currently good people there? Yes or no?” But your question implies a different formulation.
Not just “are there good people at the department right now?” But also, “how likely is that department to treat good people well/retain them if they do good work?”
This is quite interesting. Because if we could start to find some rough answers to how important the expectations piece is, that could possibly shed some light on how to:
Recruit top scientists to departments/orgs/research areas that are not currently top-tier but looking to build up towards the future
And the more impactful, less zero-sum topic of maybe there are ways to use whatever we learn to get more talented potential researchers into academic departments in the first place.
I’m sure we all know people who gave up possible top-flight academic careers for the private sector not just because of the paycheck, but also because they didn’t really have any faith in the academic institutions/ecosystem as a whole treating them well.
Would love to know anyone’s thoughts or if there are interesting papers to start running down this rabbit hole on!
“If the scientists had randomly died of disease or something, instead of being deliberately kicked out, would the effect have been similar?”
This paper by Pierre, Josh, and Wang does exactly that. They look at the sudden death of ‘superstar academics’ and find a noticeable decline in their collaborators productivity.
When I was considering that line of reasoning that you just made, I wasn’t sure how seriously to take the change because it was unclear to me if that was a negative spillover that affected their capacity to do or work just that the field moved on in the absence of a superstar.
Because in Pierre’s (god I love him, he’s a godsend) Does Science Advance One Funeral at a Time? there seems to be an interesting dynamic. Upon an untimely death, collaborators’ pubs went down and newcomers’ pubs went up. In that case, an alternative model of the situation could be “the old famous group of researchers had a certain capture/influence over publishing in the area that was broken by the untimely death of one of them.”
In essence, I wasn’t sure what to think because, as you pointed out, their direct collaborators were hurt. But it seems like the fields where a superstar dies also get an injection of new ideas. So I withheld judgment on what I thought might be happening because it felt up in the air.
But I’m open to hearing more evidence! I like being swayed. It’s fun.
Yeah, that’s certainly true, the deaths have interesting dynamics. My advisor (Christian Fons-Rosen) is a co-author on that paper with Pierre and Josh. I’m definitely interested in exploring the area more.
If one wanted to start flirting with how to disentangle the lost collaborator effect from the lost capture effect, do you think there are any decent ways to do that?
I imagine whatever it is will be imperfect. But maybe there’s some pseudo-randomness to certain positions of status/power coming to an end that are independent from one’s research capacity.
Like maybe you’re only allowed to be the chair of x society or editor of y journal for a fixed time period and then you’re forced to step down. Maybe something like that could be a codifiable measure of some level of capture of a field.
I think it’s a great question. Two papers come to mind about capture that are somewhat related. These are not directly related but get at the capture part of research to some extent:
I’m really fond of this paper by Rubin and Rubin because the empirical strategy is smart.
“Like maybe you’re only allowed to be the chair of x society or editor of y journal for a fixed time period and then you’re forced to step down. Maybe something like that could be a codifiable measure of some level of capture of a field.”
I know some people who are working on something kind of like this. Happy to explore this further when we chat.
I grew up in a small village in Turkey. Before commercial fertilizers became affordable enough, you would collect cow shit all year, let it dry out and use it as fertilizer. It was hard labor, didn’t work as well and smelled as you’d think it smells.
First thought: seems like the kind of thing you could use for vaccine development and manufacturing in a pandemic? (How does this relate to what the Gates Foundation did… didn’t they fund manufacturing facilities for several vaccines, even in advance of knowing which one would work?)
Another potential application: carbon capture systems?
Carbon capture seems like a pretty good potential use, yeah. I hadn’t thought of vaccine development, though I wonder if traditional finance may be better at that, as you’d marshal more resources promising people the upside too. Good question on the Gates Foundation, I’d be interested to know too.
Effective progress studies and actions would be well thought of as Startups. Presenting concrete and distinct visions of the future that are actually desirable to ‘normies’ is what will drive growth and interest in these fields. The visions and implications of our abstractions should be regularly means-tested against users (i.e. the general population) and if they don’t want what we’re pitching, you should be open toward pivoting in the direction of their expressed consensuses. At the very least this will help ensure that you’re grappling in a workspace that is actually meaningful to average people, which will then increase your ability to go play in more removed fields of abstraction. Adventuring into abstract landscapes is fun and meaningful, but you can’t patent an abstract concept and you can’t get Tom from down the block to hand you a tenner for a verbal description of a hypersphere.
I just wanted to bring to your attention this recent release by the Health Physics Society on the entire history of the Linear Non-Threshold model, in the form of 22 episodes interview with Ed Calabrese.
Go into the Royal Exchange in London, a building more respectable than most courts; there you will find deputies from every nation assembled simply to serve mankind. There, the Jew, the Mohammedan, and the Christian negotiate with one another as if they were all of the same religion, and the only heretics are those who declare bankruptcy; there the Presbyterian trusts the Anabaptist, the Anglican accepts the word of the Quaker. Leaving this peaceful and liberal assembly, some go to the synagogue, others go to drink; this one is baptized in a great font in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; that one has his son circumcised while some Hebrew words that he does not understand are mumbled over him; still others go to their church with their hats on their heads to await the inspiration of God, and all are content.
Were there only one religion in England, despotism would be a threat; were there two, they would be at each other’s throats; but there are thirty, and they live happily and at peace with one another.
A 1965 Harris poll showed 57 percent of Americans believed money would be better spent on a less literal moonshot: new water desalination systems. A few years later, in 1967, only 43 percent of the public supported landing a man on the moon, according to another Harris poll. It was popularly referred to as a “moondoggle.”
The document explaining Germany’s nuclear position reads as a long list of excuses of why it would be inconvenient to keep nuclear reactors open, forget about reopening old ones.
What is even more interesting is not what’s there, but what’s not there. This is not a cost-benefit analysis. It doesn’t explain the benefits of reopening the reactors, how much money would be saved, how much safer Germany would be, how much more it could defend its neighbors.
When you only pay attention to something’s costs, it means you simply don’t want to do it.
I think there’s an interesting sociocultural counterpoint to be made here by studying the Italian Futurists
The Futurists admired speed, technology, youth and violence, the car, the airplane and the industrial city, all that represented the technological triumph of humanity over nature, and they were passionate nationalists. They repudiated the cult of the past and all imitation, praised originality… and gloried in science.
I think the glorification of [“humanity over nature”, “young over old”, “brash over wise”, “strong over weak”, “future over present”, “men over women”] (all touted beliefs of the Italian Futurists) is unwise and harmful.
Your definition of futurism (“the systematic study of technological advancement for the purpose of understanding how people will live in the future”) isn’t harmful. It’s more a field of study than an ideology, but I wonder how quickly “pure academics” can turn ideological, especially when sharing the name of an old ideology.
I agree with you totally about the need to study and understand how people will live in the future, I just have also been thinking about how I see some of the traits of the old Futurism in the water. I see young men worshipping the new, the fast, the human, the strong… and I see some of those young men drawn to movements like Effective Altruism and Progress Studies, and the tech industry more broadly.
I wonder how movements like Progress Studies can be clear about what we are willing to sacrifice for “Futurism”, and what we are not. How do we avoid repeating the cultural mistakes of past technologists & futurists? Do we even agree about what those mistakes are?
Interesting and important piece, thanks for sharing!
I think to avoid repeating past mistakes, it’s crucial to remember that (1) technology and industry are ultimately valuable only in the service of human well-being, and (2) in order to ensure this, we need more than just technology and industry: we need the recognition and protection of individual rights.
Yes, I think the Italian Futurists provide us with interesting lessons. One reason their movement was so short-lived was the onset of WW1. A bunch of them died in various conflicts, but the intellectual foundations of the movement were also killed off. According to Marinetti and friends, technology and machinery was the source of dynamism and progressive change in society, and war was a primary means of putting this machinery to use. Yet in practice, the main ‘achievement’ of technological advancement in this period was a novel ‘meat-grinder’ style of warfare, one that ushered in the industrial-scale killing of faceless statistics. Rather than dynamic progress, they got pointless, static violence.
Both sides of the war had perfectly concrete visions of the future. Yet pursuit of these competing visions of progress caused them to largely neutralize each other. I therefore appreciate Eli’s focus upon a vision of the future that is constructive and credible, as well as concrete.
Balla’s Street Light was a personal favorite from my history of art class as an undergrad.
In his 2013 book, “Smarter Than You Think: How Technology Is Changing Our Minds for the Better,” Clive Thompson noted that “dystopian predictions are easy to generate” and “doomsaying is emotionally self-protective: if you complain that today’s technology is wrecking the culture, you can tell yourself you’re a gimlet-eyed critic who isn’t hoodwinked by high-tech trends and silly, popular activities like social networking. You seem like someone who has a richer, deeper appreciation for the past and who stands above the triviality of today’s life.” (p. 283)
I would add another reason for futurism that’s maybe even more important: it can inspire and motivate scientists, inventors, and founders—exactly the people who will be actually making these breakthroughs. It can spotlight exciting opportunities and help direct their efforts. (Maybe this is just a part of your first reason.)
Because of all this, I think J. Storrs Hall did a great service with his book Where Is My Flying Car?It’s on my short list of essential progress books.
1. On comprehension vs. advocacy, I think there are actually two types of advocacy. One is more like “application” and is analogous to medicine or engineering: we learn something (comprehension) that can then be applied for practical results. In Cowen & Collison’s article, they give the example of teaching better management practices to companies.
The other type is advocating for progress itself: promoting the idea that progress is even desirable and possible. I don’t think this has an analog in biology/medicine, because health is not a very controversial goal. There is no “dehealth” movement advocating sickness; no one calls health an “addition” or a “fetish,” etc.
(The question of whether you can both “study” and “advocate” at the same time is interesting and important, and it would be good to take that up in a separate post/thread here.)
2. Related, re:
The Progress Studies movement might consider framing its work as a response to the growing extremism of the STS movement.
I think that’s right. Although I wouldn’t define PS primarily as a response to any other idea or movement. PS would be needed and would be essentially the same even if STS didn’t exist.
3. Re “big tent”, I generally agree, although I think this is a subtle issue.
I definitely want to avoid dogmatic party lines, or dogmatism of any form. (The question of epistemic standards for the progress movement is also worth a separate post and discussion.)
That said, I do think that there are certain basic premises that are needed to give this community/movement some coherence and identity. I’ve identified those as: progress as a historical fact; human well-being as the standard of value; and a belief in human agency. In other words: progress is real, desirable, and possible. (And even within those basic premises, there’s room for debate over exact definition, interpretation, and applications.)
If we agree on the goal, then there is a lot of room for debate about specific policies and approaches. The progress community spans a range from progressive to libertarian, and I’d love to see people debate their preferred systems in terms of what actually achieves progress.
I would go even a bit further and say that I would like this community, and especially this forum, to be welcoming of people who aren’t even sure that they’re on board with the basic premises, and don’t self-identify with the movement. No need to pledge allegiance or anything. If you can contribute to the discussion, then we’re glad to have you here.
All that said, I would emphasize that I do think the basic premises matter, including “hammering out all the detailed nuances.” I think those premises have powerful consequences for how we interpret “progress” and what conclusions we draw about it. So even while we leave them somewhat open, I think we should do so not on the idea that basic premises are irrelevant fluff, but rather on the idea that we’re still figuring out what they are, as part of an iterative epistemic process of improving our views.
“Progress is real, desirable, and possible” is an inspiring slogan, but I would suggest that it’s actually mistaken. What we want is differential progress where we accelerate those technologies most likely to be beneficial and slow those technologies most likely to be harmful.
Nuclear non-proliferation has slowed the distribution of nukes; I acknowledge that this is slowing distribution rather than development.
There are conventions against the use of or development of biological weapons. These don’t appear to have been completely successful, but they’ve had some effect.
There has been a successful effort to prevent genetic enhancement—this may be net-positive or net-negative—but it shows the possibility of preventing development of a tech, even in China which was assumed to be the wild West.
But going further, progress studies wouldn’t exist if we didn’t think we could accelerate technologies. And as a matter if logic if we have the option to accelerate something we also have the option to not accelerate it, otherwise it was never an option. So even if we can’t slow a harmful technology relative to a baseline, we can at least not accelerateit.
Chris, you seem to be reducing “progress” down to “technology”. This is exactly the type of thing progress studies needs to clarify. As someone who has spent half his life studying progress, my two cents on the issue is that it is helpful to view two distinct types of progress. The first is what I call type 1 progress or progress in capability, knowledge or technology. This is nukes! Progress in technology and capability are fairly commonplace in history and even evolution.
The second is what I call type 2 progress, or progress in outcome or welfare. This is the hard one, and is extremely rare on a population level. The first and only known example of type 2 progress in the observable universe has been with humanity over the past 250 years or so.
Technology and science certainly play a crucial role in type 2 progress. But they are in no way sufficient.
OK. Why do these examples make “progress is real, desirable, and possible” mistaken?
Can’t it be understood that by “progress,” we mean progress on things that are good for human well-being? Does every reference to progress always have to include a qualifier or disclaimer?
Things that are good are desireable would seem like a tauntology.
But my deeper critique is that whether a motto is a good choice or not depends on the context. And while in the past it may have made sense to abstract out progress as good, we’re now at that point where operating within that abstraction can lead us horribly astray.
Love it, I’m a rabid fan of David Deutsch and think he’s essentially answered these questions, so for fun I’m going to take a stab at them below.
The definition of “progress”: Increase in wealth, which is “the set of possible transformations.” This occurs through knowledge growth, which was described by Karl Popper as a process of conjecture and refutation.
How to measure progress: Again, how do we measure the number of possible transformations? When the Wright brothers discovered flight, they opened a new set of possible transformations. (I wonder—what’s the value of measuring this?)
The value of progress: pro, cons, risks, tradeoffs—Stagnation means extinction, this is not a viable option. The cons are all the problems that new discoveries potentiate. The trade-off is that we can’t solve old problems without creating new problems. In fact, new problems are one way to measure progress.
The causes of progress, and which ones are fundamental: Knowledge growth is fundamental.
The intellectual history of the idea of progress: The history of the enlightenment? Of mini-enlightenments (ie Athens).
Technological stagnation, and its causes and solutions: Anything that prohibits conjecture and/or criticism causes stagnation. A culture of criticism and open-ended brainstorming can’t help but make progress.
Histories of progress in various fields (as are often featured on this blog)
Opportunities and bottlenecks in various fields: What processes interrupted conjecture/criticism in those particular fields?
Visions of the future: A dynamic society, dominated by rational memes where anti-rational memes (memes that survive by disabling criticism) have no purchase.
Progress and safety (including existential risk): Knowledge growth, problem-solving and wealth creation.
Progress-minded approaches to other issues of the day (climate change, poverty/inequality, war, etc.)
The philosophy of progress in comparison with other approaches, such as Effective Altruism: EA is too focused on cause prioritization, which necessarily involves prophesy. Just focus on the interesting problems and let ’er rip! EA would do the best if they simply highlighted problems they find interesting for reasons of neglectedness, scale, impact on wellbeing, etc.
The trade-off is that we can’t solve old problems without creating new problems. In fact, new problems are one way to measure progress.
I think that there is some value in this frame, but I guess I see this as limited to the context where we’re generally replacing bad problems with a less bad problems.
I guess it would seem a bit blase in a context where we take a problem that is only kind of bad and replace it with something that is a catastrophe.
So my tendency would be much more cautious about the potential to create new problems.
When academic pressure starts piling up, having reliable support can make a huge difference. An assignment helper at myassignmenthelp.services can be a real game-changer for students struggling to meet tight deadlines or tackle complex topics. These professionals not only help you complete your assignments on time but also ensure high-quality work that aligns with your academic requirements.They provide detailed explanations, proper referencing, and plagiarism-free content, which helps students not only submit assignments confidently but also understand the concepts better.
Is there a collection of open questions?
Ben Norman, Max Maton, Jian Xin Lim and I are working on a Progress Studies Society in London for students/professionals. Our initial experiment is an 8-week in-person project-based fellowship, aimed at helping talented individuals start working on concrete problems relevant to progress studies.
We’re looking for lists of relevant project ideas—similar to what people have done in AI safety (e.g. here and here). The people working on these would be lower context, but dedicated/smart. We would be very grateful if anyone has suggestions :)
Are essays about epistemology, rationality, error correction, learning methods, debate methodology, etc., considered on-topic or off-topic?
I feel borderline/neutral about them. I’m interested in these topics and I think a lot of other people would be but it feels auxilliary/tangential
Thanks. I posted an overview about the ideas I’m interested in and their relevance. https://progressforum.org/posts/HdFCEkhGn2bJxdpbJ/a-plan-for-making-progress-debate-policies
I think Leopold Aschenbrenner’s argument here is interesting to consider: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/securing-posterity/?ref=forourposterity.com
(full paper https://globalprioritiesinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/Philip-Trammell-and-Leopold-Aschenbrenner-Existential-Risk-and-Growth.pdf)
Regarding discount rate, 0% discount is pretty common in EA circles, I think, although I think many recognize it should be at least a bit above 0% to account for epistemic uncertainty about how long humans will continue to exist.
Worldbuilding Hopeful Futures with AI – Free course now live
Hi everyone,
Foresight Institute just launched a new free, self-paced course on Udemy:
👉 Worldbuilding Hopeful Futures with AI
The goal: to empower more people — not just technologists or policymakers — to actively think about and shape AI’s long-term trajectory. We use storytelling and worldbuilding to crowdsource diverse, ambitious, and grounded visions of the future, and explore practical pathways to get there.
The course brings together insights from a wide range of thinkers across science, governance, and philosophy, including:
Helen Toner – Director of Strategy at CSET and former OpenAI board member
Anthony Aguirre – Co-founder of the Future of Life Institute
Hannah Ritchie – Lead Researcher at Our World in Data
Ada Palmer – Historian and sci-fi author
Glen Weyl – Founder of RadicalxChange, Microsoft Research
Robert Lempert – Senior Scientist at RAND, expert in scenario planning
Each module includes a short video, reading recommendations, and an interactive assignment to build your own future scenario.
We’d love for you to check it out, share it with others, and let us know what you think:
👉 https://www.udemy.com/course/worldbuilding-hopeful-futures-with-ai/
Happy to answer any questions or discuss the project further!
My first reaction was that this seems to be assuming a zero discount rate on the future. I haven’t had a chance to really dig into it though
Yes, that’s correct. Ord’s writes this about discount rates:
So what’s the best argument for having a discount rate on value itself?
Really enjoyed this book, it inspired me to start Roots of Progress! https://blog.rootsofprogress.org/the-idea-of-progress
I would say both immigration and crime are relevant to progress!
I think this is presupposing the question isn’t it.
If a risk is indeed very unlikely, then we will tend to overestimate it. (If the probability is 0 it’s impossible to underestimate)
But for risks that are actually quite likely, then we are more likely to underestimate them.
And of course, bias estimates cut both ways. “Our primitive monkey brains are good at ignoring and underestimating abstract and hard to understand risks”.
This is a linkpost for https://amistrongeryet.substack.com/p/alphaproof-and-openai-o1
The latest advances in AI reasoning come from OpenAI’s o1 and Google’s AlphaProof. In this post, I explore how these new models work, and what that tells us about the path to AGI.
Interestingly, unlike GPT-2 → GPT-3 → GPT-4, neither of these models rely on increased scale to drive capabilities. Instead, both systems rely on training data that shows, not just the solution to a problem, but the path to that solution. This opens a new frontier for progress in AI capabilities: how to create that sort of data?
In this post, I review what is known about how AlphaProof and o1 work, discuss the connection between their training data and their capabilities, and identify some problems that remain to be solved in order for capabilities to continue to progress along this path.
Ok. Firstly I do think your “Embodied information” is real. I just think it’s pretty small. You need the molecular structure for 4 base pairs of DNA, and for 30 ish protiens. And this wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_and_RNA_codon_tables
That seems to be in the kilobytes. It’s a rather small amount of information compared to DNA.
Epigenetics is about extra tags that get added. So theoretically the amount of information could be nearly as much as in the DNA. For example, methyization can happen on A and C, so that’s 1 bit per base pair, in theory.
Also, the structure of DNA hasn’t changed much since early micro-organisms existed. Neither has a lot of the other embodied information.
Therefore the information doesn’t contain optimization over intelligence, because all life forms with a brain had the same DNA.
Humans are better than LLM’s at highly abstact tasks like quantum physics or haskel programming.
You can’t argue that this is a result of billions of years of evolution. Sea sponges weren’t running crude haskel programs a billion years ago.
Therefore, whatever data the human brain has, it is highly general information about intelligence.
Suppose we put the full human genome, plus a lot of data about DNA and protein structure, into the LLM training data. In theory, the LLM has all the data that evolution worked so hard to produce. In practice, LLM’s aren’t smart enough to come up with fundamental insights about the nature of intelligence from the raw human genome.
So there is some piece of data, with a length between a few bits and several megabytes, that is implicitly encoded in the human genome, and that describes an algorithm for higher intelligence in general.
If it’s a collection of millions of unintelligible interacting “hacks” tuned to statistical properties of the environment, then maybe not.
Well those “hacks” would have to generalize well. Modern humans operate WAY out of distribution and work on very different problems.
Would interacting hacks that were optimized to hunt mammoths also happen to work in solving abstract maths problems?
So how would this work. There would need to be a set of complicated hacks that work on all sorts of problems, including abstract maths. Abstract maths has limitless training data in theory. And if the hacks apply to all sorts of problems, then data on all sorts of problems is useful in finding the hacks.
If the hacks contain a million bits of information, and help answer a million true/false questions, then they are in principle findable with sufficient compute.
Also, bear in mind that evolution is INCREADIBLY data inefficient. Yes there are a huge number of ancestors. But evolution only finds out how many children got produced. A human can look at a graph and realize that a 1% increase in parameter X causes a 1% improvement in performance. Evolution randomly makes some individual with 1% more X, and they get killed by a tiger. Bad luck.
And again. Most of the billions of years there were no brains at all. The gap between humans and monkeyish creatures is a few Million years.
AIXI is a theoretical model of an ideal intelligence, it’s a few lines of maths.
I’m not saying it’s totally impossible that there is some weird form of evolution data wall. But mostly this looks like a fairly straightforward insight, possessable, and not possessed by us. I think it’s pretty clear that the human algorithm makes at least a modest amount of sense and isn’t too hard to find with trial and error on the same training dataset. (When the dataset is large, and the amount of outer optimization is fairly modest, the risk of overfitting in the outer stage is small)
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZiRKzx3yv7NyA5rjF/the-robots-ai-and-unemployment-anti-faq
Once AI does get that level of intelligence, jobs should be the least of our concerns. Utopia or extinction, our future is up to the AI.
> It also seems vanishingly unlikely that the pressures on middle class jobs, artists, and writers will decrease even if we rolled back the last 5 years of progress in AI—but we wouldn’t have the accompanying productivity gains which could be used to pay for UBI or other programs.
When plenty of people are saying that AGI is likely to cause human extinction, and the worst scenario you can come up with is middle class jobs, your side is the safe one.
I think your notion of “environmental progress” itself is skewing things.
When humans were hunter gatherers, we didn’t have much ability to modify our surroundings.
Currently, we are bemoaning global warming, but if the earth was cooling instead, we would bemoan that too.
Environmentalism seems to only look at part of the effects.
No one boasts about how high the biodiversity is at zoos. No one is talking about cities being a great habitat for pigeons as an environmental success story.
The whole idea around the environmentalist movement is the naturalistic fallacy turned up to 11. Any change made by humans automatically becomes a problem.
It’s goal seems to be “make the earth resemble what it would look like had humans never existed”.
(Name one way humans made an improvement to some aspect of the environment compared to what it was a million years ago)
A goal that kind of gets harder by default as humanities ability to modify the earth increases.
One system I think would be good is issue based voting.
So for example, there would be several candidates for the position of “health minister”, and everyone gets to vote on that.
And independently people get to vote for the next minister for education.
Other interesting add ons include voting for an abstract organization, not a person. One person that decides everything is an option on the balot, but so are various organizations, with various decision procedures. You can vote for the team that listens to prediction markets, or even some sub-democracy system. (Because the organizations can use arbitrary mechanisms, including more votes, teams of people, whatever they like)
Approval voting is good.
An interesting option is to run a 1-of-many election.
So you can cast a ballot in the health-election or in the education election or in the energy election or …, depending on which issue you feel most strongly about. (But you can’t vote on both issues at one time.) This has a nice property that the fewer people care about a topic, the further your vote goes if you decide to vote on that topic.
Most of the current attempts that interact with everyday people are random greenwashing trying to get people to sort recycling or use paper straws. Yes solar panel tech is advancing, but that’s kind of in the background to most peoples day to day lives.
And all this goal is promising is that things won’t get worse via climate change. It isn’t actually a vision of positive change.
A future with ultra cheap energy, electric short range aviation in common use etc.
Half the experts are warning that this is a poisoned chalice. Can we not unite towards this goal until/unless we come to a conclusion that the risk of human extinction from AGI takeover is low.
Also, if we do succeed in AGI alignment, the line from AGI to good things is very abstract.
What specific nice thing will the AGI do? (The actual answer is also likely to be a bizarre world full of uploaded minds or something. Real utopian futures aren’t obliged to make sense to the average person within a 5 minute explanation.)
Feels like a useless vanity project. (See the moon landings. Lots of PR, not much practical benefit.)
How about something like curing aging? Even the war on cancer was a reasonable vision of a positive improvement.
Thanks Donald, good feedback. I agree about maximizing good over minimizing bad. Curing aging, or extending healthspan, is a great one. Certainly an easier sell than becoming a multiplanetary species.
Superintelligent AI (whether friendly or not) may not feel obliged to follow human laws and customs that slow down regular automation.
That is a very fair point! I guess even within human laws there is some point before “God-level” where the “automation overhang” is reduced when AI becomes so good that it can compete with the product/services of many companies end-to-end rather than relying on integration into business processes. Still, I think it’s fair to say that a) business integration can be/is a bottleneck to automation and b) “automation overhang” differs between products/service based on market structure (eg lower in management consulting, higher in public transport)
I have no idea what superintelligence following existing laws even looks like.
Take mind uploading. Is it
Murder
A (currently unapproved) medical procedure
Not something the law makes any mention of, so permitted by default.
The current law is very vague with respect to tech that doesn’t exist yet. And there are a few laws which, depending on interpretation, might be logically impossible to follow.
ASI by default pushes right to the edge of what is technically possible, not a good fit with vague rules.
You are raising good questions, though they are probably beyond the scope for me to answer. My high-level take would be that there are quite a few existing laws that could apply in such a scenario (eg Neuralink-implants to record brain-activity need FDA approval) and that we should expect laws to be adapted to new circumstances caveated with the pacing problem.
The antibodies argument always made the most sense to me. But note that this is an argument for some breast milk, not an all-breast-milk diet—that is, it’s not an argument against formula, just an argument against an all-formula diet. I mention this because when we were in the hospital with our kid, they were pushing against formula very hard.
Also, it’s not an argument for literal feeding at the breast, as opposed to pumping and then bottle-feeding with the breast milk, which is easier for some people.
Emily Oster covers breastfeeding in Chapter 4 of Cribsheet, more extensively than in the 538 article you linked to. IIRC, she notes that there is evidence of benefit for the mother in terms of reduced breast cancer risk (no idea why that would be, though).
(But in general, I agree that Oster is too quick to say “it doesn’t matter” about things that we don’t have rigorous evidence for, rather than trying to make an informed decision about the best course of action based on what data and theories we do have. Other than that minor criticism, though, I am a big fan of her work.)
Yeah, I think Oster is great. I think I only differ with her in two respects:
As you noted, she sometimes seems to imply “absence of evidence is evidence of absence”.
I think she’s too quick to dismiss PROBIT. In Cribsheet, she notes that the IQ measurements at 6.5 might be biased since the evaluators were not blinded. But she doesn’t mention the audit results or the teacher evaluation results. None of these were significant, but every single subtest was positive, and had surprisingly large effects once you account for the fact that the intervention had such a small effect on breastfeeding.
For most of the plausible mechanisms, it seems like partial breastfeeding (and/or pumping) could capture most of the benefits. The major exceptions would be if the local water was unhealthy, or some of the weirder theories, e.g. that babies feeding in a supine position might cause temporary deafness. (Sounds crazy to me, but seems to be taken seriously).
Regarding benefits for the mother, may I introduce you to the most surprising thing I learned of all: Breastfeeding apparently causes the uterus to contract faster.
Here are my initial suggestions, keeping in mind that chaos theory is a subset of dynamical systems theory. For some modern applications it has been subsumed as an element of applied complexity science.
1. The Predictors: How a band of maverick physicists used chaos theory to trade their way to a fortune on Wall Street, Thomas A. Bass, Henry Holt and Company, New York, 1999.
2. Increasing Returns and Path Dependence in the Economy, W. Brian Arthur, The University of Michigan Press, 1994
3. Complexity and the Economy, W. Brian Arthur, Oxford University Press, 2015
4. Complexity Economics, Dialogues of the Applied Complexity Network, W. Brian Arthur, Eric D. Beinhocker, Allison Stanger, Editors, SFI Press, 2020
5. Making Sense of Chaos: A Better Economics for a Better World, J. Doyne Farmer, Penguin Random House UK, 2024
6. Chaos and Nonlinear Dynamics: An Introduction for Scientists and Engineers, 2nd Edition, Robert C. Hilborn, Oxford University Press, 2000. Take a look at Chapter 11 and Chapter 12.
7. Nonlinear Spatio-Temporal Dynamics and Chaos in Semiconductors, Eckehard Scholl, Cambridge University Press, 2001
8. Chaos in Circuits and Systems, Guanrong Chen and Tetsushi Ueta, Editors, World Scientific Press, 2002. Recommended Chapters: 5, 6,10, 12,13, 17, 22, 23, 24, 26, 27.
Many of the engineering applications can be found in application dependent modern circuit designs. Spread spectrum communications and advanced defense electronic applications make use of tools and methods from items 6, 7, and 8.
I hope these are helpful.
Elizabeth and Alex—This is an interesting article. More broadly, there is a significant community of scientists/engineers/mathematicians that have worked in dynamical systems, nonlinear dynamics, chaos theory, and applications of chaotic dynamics. A reasonable number of technical monographs and textbooks have been written on these areas since the early to mid 1980’s. Applications exist in electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, fluid dynamics, biology, ecology, economics, networks, medical science, applied mathematics,…. I am not sure whether you want to do a follow up article, or devote time to further investigation, but I am happy to provide pointers to relevant literature if you like.
That would be great.
The list of fields you gave makes me a little nervous, so I should clarify that I’m looking for specific, practical applications that have become widespread and paid off. ApEn is better than nothing, but was outcompeted in every application. Most of the applications of chaos to ecology were retroactive explanations, with an occasional prediction, but almost never a story like “we implemented chaos-derived management in these fisheries and they did better/worse than control fisheries”.
The sheer volume of applications that never went anywhere makes it hard to find the successful practical applications, so I’m very grateful for pointers. But I do need pointers to specific successes, not fields where the math was tried.
—Evgeny Sedukhin—“Symphony of the sixth blast furnace” (1979)
This is a huge undertaking, and I admire and respect both your industry and your courage in it.
Two questions/comments:
Is there a page I can bookmark that will have links to everything that has been published up to that date? I haven’t found it if one exists.
I love the core value of human life first made explicit in what’s been published to date, but I’m struggling with the concept of agency. I feel like the word agency gets thrown around a lot these days, and I’m afraid that may have muddied the waters for me at least in understanding the ultimate point.
But is agency even necessary? What if it was just techno-humanism without this additional concept of agency? That’s what I find myself wondering at this stage. I found some earlier work by the author here: https://blog.rootsofprogress.org/progress-humanism-agency and I’m guessing the same or similar use of “agency” is intended. I’ll keep reading to see how this plays out, but at least for now I’m not seeing the case for agency clearly — meaning both that I don’t quite understand what agency means and that whatever it means it’s not clear how it’s a necessary moral imperative to human progress.
This may be a semantic argument in the sense that if what is meant by agency boils down to something like attention to pragmatic fitting of means to ends, then this argument for agency would be much clearer. And I may be idiosyncratic in how distracted I get worrying that “agency” in the sense the author is using the term here requires an appeal to “free will,” which I believe both ambiguous and unnecessary.
I’ll keep reading to see what it plays out.
Thanks!
I just updated https://rootsofprogress.org/manifesto with links to everything that’s been published so far, and will try to keep it up to date.
By agency, I mean two closely related things.
It is the belief that we can make choices and that those choices matter and can be effective, that we can to some significant degree control our lives and shape our future, both as individuals and as a society. The opposite of this is fatalism, the belief that we’re being carried along by forces outside our control and that we don’t have any choices or that they don’t matter.
It is also an ideal or a value, in the sense of believing that it is good for people to have choices and to make them, and that the expansion of choice (again, both for individuals and for society) is a good thing.
I do believe in free will (although I’m less clear on it and less certain about it than I used to be) but I’m not sure that a strong belief in free will is necessary to align with my concept of agency—maybe you could also agree with it under a compatibilist notion of volition.
I’m still mulling this over, but I have come around to the view that you’re right about what you’re calling “agency” not being something that could be removed without disservice to the promotion of progress, and that you’ve got the best way of framing it. If I take your suggestion of viewing “agency” from a more compatibilist point of view—and thanks for this nudge—I find it all far more tractable. I’m a big fan of W.V.O. Quine, and I believe he would have supported your pointing to “agency” as useful in this context. Even if “agency” means not freedom in some metaphysical sense, we have to grant that the removal of constraints on human actions is going to be better rather than worse for human progress.
And I think you have the right rhetorical approach to the question. Talking about freedom as we have for millennia, in the metaphysical sense, is more comprehensible because of how we’re wired.
...but I can’t resist observing that if, in the background, what’s going on is something determined then the actual mechanism for the promotion of progress does seem to collapse into something more like far from equilibrium free energy maximizations, of the sort popular among techno-optimists at the moment. Not for no reason it’s called “compatibilism” I suppose!
Thanks.
Yes, one of my problems with compatibilism is, if determinism is true, then in some sense none of this matters? Like, why bother talking about progress when the entire trajectory of the future is already predetermined and literally nothing will change it?
For some this might be too fine a distinction, but for me understanding ontology has always been important, and I find compatabilism useful for its pragmatic distinction between ontology and any prescriptivist philosophy (like positivism). A compatibilist can accept that we don’t have free will and yet endorse the instrumental value of rhetoric that promotes freedom — what does it matter that under the hood it’s just thermodynamics? One can’t escape the illusion of free will even if and when you believe it is an illusion and try hard to do so. But pragamatism is a common thread running through compatabilist ontology and prescriptivism, and my aesthetic preference (? prejudice? precommitment) is to believing in things that work even when I don’t understand how or why.
So there might very well be a point in talking about progress even if we’re not sure whether or how it would have happened had we never existed.
most of the time if you look close there is an * on official $/child stats, which excludes buildings, ‘long term’ costs(bond repayments), and cross-government payments(school/district/state resource sharing and budget games).
It is convenient when requesting increased funding from voters to be able to use a 25-35% lower number and pretend that everyone implicitly knows you are excluding all facilities and ‘fixed’ costs ofc :/
recommend skimming your local district’s annual superintendent report sometime. Balance sheet totals/student are a fun one in appreciating property markets ;)
Will be quite curious to see if this conference is sufficient to revive this forum.
Crossposted from Effective Altruism Forum: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/vjQ5BhKnDyY35dXXf/chomsky-vs-pax-democratica
Hi,
My name is Sean and I’m just a fan of Roots of Progress. Just wanted to introduce myself. I’m a developer, founder, and I’m am trying to get into writing about agriculture and economics. I don’t see a lot of intro posts so I might get in trouble for posting this. But hi anyway!
Thanks Sean, and welcome!
Relevance of Management Science to Progress Studies
Two questions for anyone here with an interest in them:
How do people in the progress studies movement view the science of management?
Who else in the group (or the movement) might also interested in this subject, and what kinds of issues or questions seem to be paramount?
By “management” I’m referring to the process of administering and controlling the affairs of the organization, irrespective of its nature, type, and size.
Michael Webb
In my experience, the existing educational model often fails to cultivate curiosity and genuine hunger for learning. It teaches us WHAT to learn but falls short on imparting the more significant aspect of HOW to learn. The knowledge available to us now is such a precious gift but is seldom presented as such. This article was a great read! Thank you for penning it.
Another brilliant resource that covers the same topic is this talk from the late Sir Ken Robinson.
Interesting article! It made me all the more hopeful for the future.
Thank you! That is the goal!
Tony, I could take over operations of the group so that at least the progress movement has some meta presence. I agree with you general conclusion though...it’s not a place for nuanced discussion. Message me on Facebook when you get a moment.
“If everyone agreed to become vegetarian, leaving little or nothing for livestock, the present 1.4 billion hectares of arable land (3.5 billion acres) would support about 10 billion people”—EO Wilson
[though limited fishing + hunting of deer/pigeons/waterfowl could be ok]
Great post. It’s nice to hear good news, and more evidence that humanity doesn’t actually run out of resources.
Agreed. The US is a massive country, and we barely use any of the space we have.
I like the idea, and the spirit of trying new ideas and forms of government.
That being said, Wikipedia isn’t without its own issues. The editorial hierarchy, like every bureaucracy, becomes rigid, brittle, and ossified over time. The predominant viewpoint becomes entrenched. And so on.
I very much believe that our representative democracy has grave flaws, and that a wiki-based form of direct democracy answers some of them. But how would you keep the system from being games? At some point, someone has to have the power to approve the edits, and the politicking to be that person becomes fiercer the higher the stakes involved.
Chaotic Progress
A book review in essay format I wrote to help nuance what I see as the unrealistic rhetoric on both sides of the political spectrum right now.
https://www.symmetrybroken.com/chaotic-progress/
Relevant—https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/13/climate/electric-power-climate-change.html
Important to mention the HHMI funding model, which puts “trust” in PIs/evaluates them as PIs rather than as research proposals.
Also
“The MacArthur grant is a template for what this looks like on a personal level, with a shift in focus from creativity to integrity, and a bump in compensation – $625,000 is a lot of money, but that money is designed to be seed money for an activity rather than financial security. Those getting a MacArthur grant still face the specter of future financial needs. One needs an order of magnitude more than that over a lifetime to be secure while not compromising one’s interactions with society. ”
What have been the longest scientific experiments? What would be worthwhile 25-year experiments?
I want someone to write an actual post on this but would also be happy to hear some initial, short answers.
I remember reading something on this or hearing these points made in a podcast but can’t recall the source!
There’s a long-ish exploration of this in Grand Futures ch. 1 (Details box 7), focusing on long-term projects in general. I’m eliding some footnotes and not linking the citations, for writing speed reasons:
I would add the (finished) ig-nobel price-worthy knuckle-cracking experiment by Donald Unger.
There should be some kind of official recognition + prize for people providing public goods on the Internet. There exist prizes for free software and open-source projects, but this does not cover even remotely the amount of intangible value people can deliver on the Internet.
Examples include: https://avherald.com, but also a lot of open-source projects. and maybe people like patio11, gwern, Lilian Weng, or Bartosz Ciechanowski. Some YouTubers would also likely qualify, but I’m not very familiar with the medium.
Theory of change: just increase the rate of reminders to people that if they are highly competent and passionate about something not directly marketable, the Internet has made it so that they can easily increase the amount of beauty in the world by making their passion a public project.
Counterargument #2: AI obsoletes creation of cool stuff on the Internet.
Response: on the contrary, in many possible futures (esp. with constraints on agency), AI empowers people to deliver beauty to others, by automating all except the things they are passionate about. Motivation becomes more of a bottleneck.
Also, these types of public goods are some of the things that make me most proud of the current human civilization. I’m sure many here will agree. Even if we lose that in the future, I think it still matters, even as some sort of nod to the things we used to value in the past.
Tyler Cowen did something like this for covid: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/03/1-million-plus-in-emergent-ventures-prizes-for-coronavirus-work.html
Counterargument #1: it might be better to incentivize people to run actual companies that deliver business value.
Response: there is so much value to be created that is hard to capture via current market structures. There are many people passionate about things that fall into this category.
First of all, thank you for this post.
This, at least, it was useful to sit and think a bit about the matter.
As I wear the clothes of the Devil’s Advocate, I’d like to do a concurrent post to state why the arguments you put in front were not acceptable (when not actually impossible):
More geniuses
We can state without any doubt that the Earth population incredibly increased in the last decades. All I can experience, especially in the last decades, is the poor quality of the humans (at least, judging from their posts in the social networks). This means:
- more recurring grammatical/orthographic errors (people who don’t know even their home country’s language);
- people speaking about topics where they’ve got not minimal experience (hence, spreading out ignorance rather than knowledge);
- people speaking not to add something to the debate but just on a “clickbait” basis.
And I mentioned only the too evident issues. There are many other issues, some related to the above.
To cut a long story short: if you can’t provide people a proper education anywhere (use of the technologies included), you are not increasing the chance of getting geniuses but the chance to widen the ignorance pool where the humanity is going to feed on.
More progress
Total investment. I wish it was so. This is (at least) a naive conception of humanity. I’m going to give you good news and bad news: good news are that the money for such investments already exist; the bad news are that the owners of their money don’t want to spend a single penny for them. So, if you want to get more investment, you have to create politically and economically the reasons for they would find profitable (or more profitable) to do so;
Specialization. Here we go to a previous issue: if you can’t provide people a proper education, you are not creating many more specialized workers but only more people who always have a worse knowledge of the basics of their job (and of the other jobs too, which means always more people wanting to have their say to “actually teach papa to screw”);
Larger markets I’m going to give you the same bad news and good news I gave you before. These markets would actually exist already now, but we’re using them in the wrong manner. Gandhi used to say: “Earth has enough resources to satisfy anybody’s need but not to satisfy anybody’s GREED. If only we could understand (and make it understandable to the right people) the difference between need and greed your hopes would be somehow possible;
More ambitious projects
Stop.
If you studied Ancient History properly you must know that the way Ancient Egypt took large masses of people to work to these more ambitious projects was force them to do that in SLAVERY. We should have put behind us that word from the Enlightenment Age (which—it is useful to remember—also made a significant contribution to the creation of the United States of America).
Are you REALLY sure that you want to turn back the clock of Time to THAT? (not to mention that, in spite of that, still today in the 21st Century we have large portions of Earth where we keep on accepting, socially or politically, slavery).
“In fact, these factors may represent not only opportunities but requirements for progress. There is evidence that simply to maintain a constant rate of exponential economic growth requires exponentially growing investment in R&D. This investment is partly financial capital, but also partly human capital—that is, we need an exponentially growing base of researchers.”
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You keep on considering the issue in terms of QUANTITY, forgetting totally the QUALITY, which is what, in your perspective, really makes the difference.
“But in the long run, an exponentially growing base of researchers is impossible without an exponentially growing population. In fact, in some models of economic growth, the long-run growth rate in per-capita GDP is directly proportional to the growth rate of the population.”
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What kind of models of economic growth are we talking about?
With numbers at hand, in the current models of economic growth that are applied globally from those self-named “civilized countries”, the only growing thing is poverty. In favor of the concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands. Is this your conception of “growth” and “civilization”?
All the above is also weakening Earth security.
Because the poorer are people, the lesser are valuable their lives.
And the lesser are valuable their lives, the easier would be they are going to devote them to criminal projects in exchange of some quid, whatever they may be.
Just because they’ve got actually nothing to lose (neither their own life itself).
To cut a long story short, in the current models of economic growth the only thing growing is—with poverty—the manpower of criminal organizations (terroristic ones included, that you state you wanna fight in words but in the end you are feeding in practice).
More options
Better matching for aesthetics, style, and taste.
Better matching to careers.
It’s the same old story: humanity will have more of these if they will be trained to.
Otherwise, the only things growing—together with poverty and the manpower of criminal organizations—are Fascisms.
There is an increasing list of countries where, foreign people are not only felt as an advantage, but rather a danger (“they come here to feed criminal activities”, “they come here to steal our jobs”, “they come here to steal our women”, etc.).
The reason is, from my point of view, quite simple. Let’s say we have a house with three rooms: this house would be comfortable to—let’s say—no more than 3-4 people (one room per person). If you wanna host some more people, you will have to increase the quality of services provided by the house, to compensate that there will be a bit lesser.
Because one of the fault of your scheme is that you completely ignore that the Earth resources are limited. You want more people but you didn’t tell us how to feed them, how to water them, how to educate them, in a world that’s already at stake to do that with the current number.
So, going on with my metaphor, we’ve got currently the three room house (that—it has to be clear—won’t have any more room, at least in the short term) with about 6 people in it, where 1 person has his/her own room and the other 5 are fighting among them to compete for the remaining 2 rooms. Let’s say that 2 of the 5 people fighting will find an agreement to get another room together in the end (hopefully, in an optimistic perspective). There are still 3 people remaining and fighting to compete for the only room left. And let’s also say that, if in a house there are three people fighting among themselves, cohabitation is not the maximum of happiness even for the other three who are trying to live in peace.
And would you want to get in some more people in such a toxic environment?
What exciting perspectives of life could you provide them?
Better matching to other people. Even on this side, it’s the same old story.
You won’t solve the problem if you increase the number of chances without increasing the quality of chances.
I can offer my personal single heterosexual man, if someone can find it useful.
What I experienced on my own skin is that our consumerist vision of society has led us to also consider interpersonal relationships as “products”. This means that we no longer want to build and spend on improving a relationship with anyone when, given the huge availability of choices, we can fuck off our partner and take another one with the same nonchalance we have in changing the brand of our washing machine soap.
And when you’ve got another partner the game starts again.
Women (I talk about them because I’m interested in women, but I guess I can tell the same thing about men) spend their lives collecting dozens of toxic relationships where they always pour on the new partners all the toxicity they have had from the previous ones, charging the righteous for the sinner. And in the end, the only thing left to do is escaping from that hell.
The result is that, in the end, neither of them both will believe in a healthy relationship anymore, but they will always think the other as an automatic dispenser of money, favors and sex (if you manage to get to sex). And when they can’t accept the other one has gone away and has the right to have a less toxic relationship, the story often ends with a murder or a suicide, when not with them both.
I think this is not the right way to achieve an increasing Earth population.
I think the time has come to provide our children with a “sentimental education” before a sexual one. Something that will teach them to respect other people and to treat people as people and things as things, and not people as things and things as people. But it’s very hard to teach to someone something you haven’t learnt for yourself yet. So, before teaching to them, we should start to learn this for us in advance!
To cut a long story short again, we have to invest more in the quality of what we’ve got instead of more quantity!
More niche communities.
More niche markets.
You will have to build up in advance a world with a social, cultural and economic system that would encourage this. Until then, your project is simply not possible, when not naive or incoherent.
Because in the current one, you are doing exactly the opposite.
Deeper patterns
The existence of non-rival goods.
Economies of scale.
Network effects and Metcalfe’s law. Value in a network is generated not by nodes but by connections, and the more nodes there are total, the more connections are possible per node. Metcalfe’s law quantifies this: the number of possible connections in a network is proportional to the square of the number of nodes.
Metcalfe’s law talks about the number of nodes. You can get all the nodes you want, but if the quality is poor, they’re going to last the twinkling of an eye.
And, in the end, the number won’t be exactly what you expected!
A dynamic world
I assume that when Ehrlich and Goodall advocate for much smaller populations, they aren’t literally calling for genocide or hoping for a global catastrophe (although Ehrlich is happy with coercive fertility control programs, and other anti-humanists have expressed hope for “the right virus to come along”).
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Nice one to talk about these good ideas.
So, if maybe they still have not taken them into consideration (I can’t believe that, but you’ll see...), now they’ll surely do!
A world with a large and growing population is a dynamic world that can create and sustain progress.
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I remain with my opinion that, before thinking of a larger population on Earth, we should work on improving the quality of life of those who are still living here, in advance.
And there are still loads of things to do just to make it become acceptable.
I’d love to change my mind if you’ve got more consistent argumentations than those you already provided in that sense.
Thanks anyway for raising the topic, which is everything but not relevant.
Best regards,
A.F.
America’s First Dual-Use Technology
This is a linkpost for https://kinetic.reviews/p/americas-first-dual-use-technology
With disintegrating 737s in the news, a lot of people are wondering how things got so bad. I’m here to rewind the clock 100+ years to reassure everyone that the aviation industry has always been beset by challenged business models, bad incentives, and shoddy aircraft.
From the first takeoff in 1903 through the late 1920s, “dual-use” aircraft were merely a promise – there was no commercial aviation market. There was, in fact, barely any U.S. market, and it was the inherent appeal of aviation that attracted both entrepreneurs and capital.1 As nascent markets for passenger transport and airmail transport emerged, so too did the first dual-use application for bombers, accelerating innovation in the early 1930s. Fighters did not lend themselves as nicely to commercial applications, and absent a procurement strategy and meaningful expenditures from either the Army or the Navy, U.S. fighters at the time of Pearl Harbor were inferior to their German and Japanese counterparts.
The mythos surrounding the Wright Brothers, Charles Lindberg, and successful mass production during WWII belies the reality of a pre-WWII aviation industry plagued by poor policies and dysfunctional relations between the government and manufacturers. The Army and Navy remained tepid – often hostile – buyers right up until the outbreak of WWII, and in partnership with Congress, they managed to inflict maximum abuse on manufacturers. During the interwar years, industry subsidized the military for both the development and production of aircraft, losing lots of money along the way. In return, manufacturers were deprived of their intellectual property rights and accused of graft and wartime profiteering. Acquisition law was so punitive towards aircraft manufacturers as late as 1939 that firms were convinced it was a conspiracy led by the automotive industry. It wasn’t.
Early on, there were some Cassandras: “In 1919 Secretary of War Baker called for a long term procurement program for military aircraft and warned Congress that “it cannot be expected that industry will long engage in an unremunerative line,” but he underestimated the aircraft manufacturers for whom the industry’s appeal defied rational calculation (The Politics of Aircraft, pg 45).”2 Indeed, the optimism-cum-masochism of early aviation entrepreneurs (e.g., Douglas, Grumman, Martin, etc.) enabled bad policy to persist.
The military-industrial complex as we know it did not exist prior to WWII, yet this period serves as a reflecting pool for the best and worst attributes of our modern defense industry.
Pre-WWI and WWI
During the first decade of the twentieth century, the U.S. led the world in heavier-than-air aircraft. We ceded this early lead to Europe in part because of patent disputes between the Wrights and Curtiss and in part because of late entry into WWI. However, even before the outbreak of war, Europe showed a much greater interest in the military utility of aviation. From 1909-1911, the U.S. Army owned one military aircraft. In comparison, France owned over 250 planes by 1912. By the time the U.S. entered the war, its domestic aircraft industry was so far behind that of its peers that the U.S. almost exclusively used foreign combat aircraft of French or British design, with the American Expeditionary Force flying the French SPAD. (The U.S. Combat Aircraft Industry, 1909-2000).
The first true test of U.S. industry-government relations was an abject failure. In 1917, Congress passed a Hail Mary, $640 million “Aero Bill,” which at the time was the largest congressional appropriation ever.3 Industry was meant to fulfill the government’s vision of mass production of aircraft, but aircraft of the era were truly “crafts” made of wood and fabric and not ready for the assembly line. This problem was exacerbated by the decision to have industry manufacture foreign designs, as there were no cutting-edge American combat designs ready for mass production.
Building a foreign fighter and retooling a factory around it proved too challenging. The U.S. licensed the SPAD design from France and contracted Curtiss Aeroplane to manufacture it, but the firm was wholly unequipped to produce the thousands of fighters expected and nearly went bankrupt trying to do so. Its early units of SPADs were immediately declared “worse than useless,” and the Army Signal Corp told Curtiss to produce the British Bristol instead. But when Curtiss failed to produce a light enough version of the Bristol, it was back to the SPAD – this time, a new variant (The Politics of Aircraft, pgs 33-36).
Glenn L. Martin refused to commit to unreasonable production expectations, explaining it was only possible for his firm to manufacture three planes a day. He was blacklisted from the war effort until summer 1918 when the Army had him build prototypes of his excellent MB-1 bomber.
At the end of the war, the government did not receive anywhere near the value of aircraft for the money spent. Rather than consider that high technology aircraft were incompatible with mass production under the conditions, President Wilson, Congress, the media, and much of the War Department concluded the failed effort was a big business conspiracy to raid the wartime coffers of the government. It was the last time the industry operated largely unregulated.
The Interwar Years: The Myth of the Fungible Engineer
After WWI, the government decided it would no longer license foreign designs, but it did not learn any lessons about the difficulty of having one firm produce a different firm’s plane. In the interwar years, the root cause of industry’s struggles was the government’s decision to separate design contracts from production contracts.4 Ostensibly, this was to ensure there was competition at every phase of the acquisition, ensuring the best deal for Uncle Sam. In reality, the attempts to cleave R&D from production were disastrous for all parties. Here is how the process worked:
Firms would respond to government specifications with their paper designs and the estimated cost to build the prototype. The government would select two to four firms to build a prototype and have a fly-off. The government then acquired the design rights to the winning firm’s prototype. Firms consistently lost money on prototyping in the hope of making a profit on the production contract – provided they could win it, that is.
The government then held a separate competition to determine which firm(s) would produce the winner’s prototype. Production competitions were almost solely based on price. This meant the firm who had the winning prototype was at a huge disadvantage because it needed to amortize its design costs, so its production bid inevitably came in higher. The firm that won the contract for production received just the winner’s prototype and had to reverse engineer the blueprints; although as we will see, having the blueprints would have been of little use.
The government treated aircraft as standardized goods to be manufactured, but aircraft were not widgets. This decision to hold pure-price manufacturing competitions resulted in manufacturing failures that make Boeing’s recent plane window blowout look positively quaint (emphasis mine):
1) Martin sold his aforementioned excellent MB-1 prototype bomber to the Army at a loss. “In 1919 [he] was underbid by three contractors on the bomber’s production. Martin was given twenty to build anyway but lost money on the reduced volume, suspended the bomber’s development, and in disgust, declined to deal with the army until 1931. L.W.F. Engineering built fifty, Aeromarine built twenty-five, and Curtiss built fifty. The bombers in the field proved to be completely different airplanes of widely varying quality (The Politics of Aircraft, pg 59).”
2) “In 1923 Curtiss lost $182,000 on a $175,000 development contract for the successful navy Curtiss Scout …In the competition to build 40 Scouts, Curtiss submitted a bid of $32,000 per plane, but Glenn Martin won the contract at $23,000 apiece. Martin complained that the plane came with no blueprints but admitted that they would have been useless in his shop anyway. His staff drew up new blueprints and in the process produced an entirely new plane inferior in performance to the Curtiss design (The Politics of Aircraft, pg 62).”
3) In 1919, the Ordnance Engineering Company developed Orenco-D, “the best pursuit in that day,” but Curtiss won production for 50 of the planes. “Ordnance Engineering liquidated; and the fifty planes built by Curtiss had to be destroyed as unsafe (The Politics of Aircraft, pg 59).”
4) “The demise of Thomas-Morse, the designer of a reasonably successful indigenous fighter design (based on the French SPAD), can be directly traced to the award of the production contract in 1921 to Boeing, which had little ability to design an advanced fighter but which underbid Morse on the production contract.”
And so the myth of the fungible engineer was born.
The myth holds that any worker is the same as any worker, and any production line is the same as any other production line. It’s a fundamentally un-American concept and reveals a captured, collectivist mindset. The belief that the sum total of innovation could be captured in a prototype or blueprint rather than in a network of humans doing exceptional things was demonstrably false. It didn’t matter that the government owned the most innovative aircraft designs – absent the designers, the prototypes were unlikely to be faithfully manufactured at scale.
It’s hard to overstate how damaging the myth of the fungible engineer is in a dynamic industry undergoing rapid technological change. With aircraft, a prototype was almost immediately rendered obsolete upon selection. Had the firm with the winning design been the one to manufacture it, it would have been able to incorporate new innovations during the manufacturing process. But the firm most able to manufacture the winning prototype was the least likely to win. The implications for innovation are clear: Firms were incentivized to keep a bare-bones design staff to minimize R&D expense, since there was no money to be made in designing the most innovative airplane.
To quote Freedom’s Forge author Arthur Herman, “it’s through making things that we learn what can be made better, which is why the most productive companies also tend to be the most innovative.” In what appears to be an oxymoron, aircraft manufacturers were deprived of the opportunity to manufacture their aircraft. And because aviation is a relatively low volume industry, missing out on the limited military production orders of the interwar years had a high opportunity cost. As
Brian Potter writes on production learning curves:
Separately competing design from production was a short-sighted acquisition strategy, although the taxpayer temporarily got a great deal. The government was paying less than the full cost for a prototype, and then it paid less than the full cost for production. Industry was subsidizing the government! But it was unsustainable for industry to operate unprofitably, and more importantly, it resulted in the warfighter getting a bad product. Note how the health of industry and national security share an intimate relationship.
Not everyone had blinders on. The legendary U.S. Navy Admiral Moffett, then director of the Bureau of Aeronautics and credited with introducing the aircraft carrier, believed “the distinction between design and production was meaningless and an obstacle to procurement” and “procurement laws dishonored the government.” Although price competition on manufacturing orders was the default, there were some loopholes that allowed for “negotiated contracts,” where a contracting officer (CO) could award the manufacturing contract to the firm with the winning prototype without a full competition. Moffett pushed for the use of negotiated contracts whenever possible, but extreme risk aversion from COs prevented them from being used with any regularity (The Politics of Aircraft, pg 86).
This piece is supposed to be focused on the origin story of the myth of the fungible engineer, but I can’t help but do a quick diversion on the origin story of the CYA, risk-averse, CO. Many will read the above manufacturing failures and ask how it’s possible that the COs – faced with such incontrovertible proof – would still pursue price competition over negotiated contracts. Were they simply useful idiots?
A closer examination of incentive structure reveals they were just acting rationally. Congressional scrutiny, allegations of wartime fraud, charges of favoritism or collusion, and an extra-long contract review process loomed large for the CO who went with the negotiated contract. It was much easier to pick the firm that could do it the cheapest – actually receiving the plane purchased was of secondary concern.
Things haven’t changed much, and we continue to encourage COs to adhere to process at the expense of outcome. As Pete Modigliani and Matt MacGregor write in their recent summary of the DoD Inspector General’s Audit of Cost-Plus-Award-Fee Contracts:
The Fungible Engineer is Alive and [Un]Well
I wish we could say we learned from this chapter in history, but the myth of the fungible engineer is the central tenet in acquisition today. We see it manifested in two ways. First, the government largely acquires software with a labor-based, butts-in-seats model that does not account for individual exceptionalism. From Trae Stephens still-relevant 2016 piece “Innovation Deficit: Why DC is Losing Silicon Valley”
Second, the government continues to equate ownership of source code, diagrams, and prototypes with innovation – once again, not realizing it is the networked people surrounding these artifacts that breathe life into them. While it is no longer an option for Boeing to bid on the production of Lockheed’s fighter, the pre-WWII mindset around the value of owning atoms has extended to owning bits. A recent report from the United States Geospatial Intelligence Foundation (USGIF) enumerates in meticulous detail different solicitations from the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) effectively boxing out commercial software by requiring aggressive ownership of IP – and these examples are just from a single government agency.5
Running and maintaining a software system is much closer to producing an aircraft at scale than it is to designing and delivering a prototype for a fly-off. Despite its proliferation of software factories, the government still has not internalized this point. For a thought experiment: if the government acquired the code base of OpenAI and turned it over to [insert favorite Systems Integrator], do you think said Systems Integrator would continue on OpenAI’s trajectory of building a next generation AI company? Relatedly, as any entrepreneur raising venture capital money for his/her startup will tell you, leading your pitch with a list of patents is not a winning strategy.
One final point. Right after WWII, there was a race by the Allies to seize as much knowledge from the Germans as possible. America’s “acquisition” of one Werner von Braun via Operation Paperclip was by far the most successful of these technology transfers. But America and the UK also pursued an expensive strategy of microfilming and translating millions of documents, which was not successful. France, who didn’t have the resources or political capital to pursue this strategy, instead embedded trainees into German research centers, maintaining the intangible value of a scientist’s network. This people-centric strategy was very successful for the French at a fraction of the cost.6
America has a deep bench of Founding Fathers and entrepreneurs we celebrate. China only has Mao, maybe Xi. They had to disappear Jack Ma because the CCP does not accommodate outliers. Our acquisition system should reject the myth of the fungible engineer and instead reflect the time-honored American tradition of elevating the individual over the collective.
I’m only comfortable with more humans if we make serious efforts to increase the percent of vegans/vegetarians, or reduce the amount of meat needed by human, given how wasteful meat is to land use.
[limited hunting of deer/pigeons/waterfowl could be ok, but people would still need to eat way less meat than they do now]
maybe, just maybe, cultured meat will come just enough time to save us. But the probability range of this is still too high for comfort.
I very strongly believe any pro-fertility incentives must be coupled with incentives to decrease meat consumption/increase vegetarianism (or increase % of power from nuclear, given that excess solar energy will also destroy habitat).
EO Wilson once advocated that 50% of the world is set aside for wilderness. Maybe that’s a bit too ambitious, but I think 35% would be good enough to preserve enough biodiversity. Taiwan/Hong Kong/Japan are all densely populated and have roughly that % of wilderness/forest (they also rely a lot on seafood, which does not destroy wilderness , but is still inherently a limited resource given overfishing). People get huge health/happiness benefits from nature exposure too, esp when the nature is close to where they live
“If everyone agreed to become vegetarian, leaving little or nothing for livestock, the present 1.4 billion hectares of arable land (3.5 billion acres) would support about 10 billion people”—EO Wilson
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2204892120 is one of the most depressing findings ever.
How do you optimize your life for serendipity?
Ken Stanley has a new social network and I asked the question here: https://app.heymaven.com/discover/25623
But progress studies forum should have more people who can answer this (esp b/c serendipity and progress are both close allies)
That requires a long process and takes a lot of research time
I wrote my rebuttal to this article here.
This is a brilliant article. My father used to work at IBM ARC back in the 1990s, and you’re describing how things worked there, during a period in which numerous Nobels were earned working within a corporation.
The jack-of-all-trades approach to being a PI was also part of what drove me personally out of a Ph.D. program and into industry. I didn’t want to be a solo entrepreneur constantly writing grants for peanuts. The most attractive jobs to me back then (early 2000s) seemed to be the government lab jobs that had no teaching responsibilities, and relatively less pressure to raise grant funding constantly.
We need to encourage more divisions of labor in the practice of scientific research. This is a great diagnosis of some of the fundamental problems of our current system. Kudos, Jason!
I don’t fault you for not mentioning it because it’s definitely more speculative. But as a voiceover I would add to this pitch for block funding the observation that in many cases, getting a large enough group together seems to lead to a critical mass, whereby new ideas start to fission off of each other. I think we’re seeing something like that now at the Flatiron institute, and probably because they’re doing many of things you’ve prescribed.
Great discussion and examples. I often struggle to explain why bad business fails without regulators but is propped up by them far too often. This was a helpful article on the topic and your ideas are valuable. Keep writing!
>Throughout history, fearmongering has been used to justify a lot of extreme measures.
And throughout history, people have dismissed real risks and been caught with their pants down. What, in 2018 or Feb 2020 would appear to be pretty extreme measures at pandemic prevention would make total sense from our point of view.
Countries can and do spend a huge pile of money to defend themselves from various things. Including huge militaries to defend themselves from invasion etc.
All sorts of technologies come with various safety measures.
>For a more concrete example, one could draw the possibility that video games might cause the players to emulate behaviors, even though you have to be insane to believe the video games are real, to then start advocating for bans of violent video games. However, one could go a step further and say that building games could also make people believe that it’s easy to build things, leading to people building unsafe houses, and what about farming games, or movies, or books?
If you are unable to distinguish the arguments for AI risk from this kind of rubbish, that suggests either you are unable to evaluate argument plausibility, or you are reading a bunch of strawman arguments for AI risk.
>The community wants you to believe in a very pessimistic version of the world where all the alignment ideas don’t work, and AI may suddenly be dangerous at any time even when their behaviors look good and they’re constantly reward for their good behaviors?
I do not know of any specific existing alignment protocol that I am convinced will work.
And again, if the reward button is pressed every time the AI does nice things, there is no selection pressure one way or the other between an AI that wants nice things, and one that wants to press the reward button. The way these “rewards” in ML work is similar to selection pressure in evolution. And humans were selected on to enjoy sex so they produced more babies, and then invented contraception. And this problem has been observed in toy AI problems too.
This isn’t to say that there is no solution. Just that we haven’t yet found a solution.
>The AI alignment difficulty lies somewhere on a spectrum, yet they insist to base the policy on the idea that AI alignment lies somewhere in a narrow band of spectrum that somehow the pessimistic ideas are true, yet we can somehow align the AI anyway, instead of just accepting that humanity’s second best alternative to survival is to build something that will survive and thrive, even if we won’t?
We know alignment isn’t super easy, because we haven’t succeeded yet. We don’t really know how hard it is.
Maybe it’s hopelessly hard. But if your giving up on humanity before you spend 10% of GDP on the problem, your doing something very wrong.
Think of a world where aliens invaded, and the government kind of took a few pot shots at them with a machine gun, and then gave up. After all, the aliens will survive and thrive even if we don’t. And mass mobilization, shifting to a wartime economy… those are extreme measures.
Well
>Invader countries have to defend their conquests and hackers need to have strong information security.
One place where offense went way ahead of defense is with nukes.
However nukes are sufficiently hard to make that only a few big powers have them. Hence balance of power MAD.
If destruction is easy enough, someone will do it.
In the war example, as weapon lethality went up, the fighters moved further apart. So long as both sides have similar weapons and tactics, there exists some range at which you aren’t so close as to be instakilled, nor are you so far as to have no hope of attacking. This balance doesn’t apply to civilian casualties.
Research oriented government agencies already sometimes give grants to private organizations (corporations, typically) for largish chunks of work—climate tech startups get nontrivial amounts of project funding from organizations like NRECA for example. Do these grants work better than grants to PIs? That seems worth finding out. Similar, though less research oriented, is the phenomenon of “Beltway bandit” companies whose revenue comes mostly from defense contracts—I suspect that for better or worse, the incentive structure faced by grant seeking labs in your proposed model would come to resemble these.
Also posted in EA Forum: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/jJap6KhzFe3mgh32M/electric-vehicles-and-renewable-electricity
The thing is, we have many options that aren’t just accelerating or decelerating the whole thing. Like we can choose gain of function research and cutting edge AI capabilities, and accelerate everything except that.
Science is lots of different pieces, differential technological development.
“25% probability that the domain experts are right x 50% chance that it’s not too late for science to affect the onset of the
time of perils x 50% chance that science cannot accelerate us to safety = 6.25%”
This smells of the “multistage fallacy”
You think of something. List a long list of “nesscessary steps”. Estimate middling probabilities for each step. And multiply them together for a small end stage probability.
The problem is, often some of the steps, or all of them, turn out to not be that necessary. And often, if a step had actually happened, it would do so in a way that gave you strong new information about the likelihood of other steps.
Ie if a new device needs 100 new components to be invented, and you naively assume the probability is 50⁄50 for each component. But then a massive load of R&D money gets sent towards making the device, and all 100 components are made.
In this particular case, you are assuming a 25% chance the domain experts are right about the level of X-risk. In the remaining 75%, apparently X risk is negligable. There is no possibility for “actually it’s way way worse than the domain experts predicted”.
“x 50% chance that it’s not too late for science to affect the onset of the
time of perils x 50% chance that science cannot accelerate us to safety ”
If the form of the peril is a step. Say a single moment when the first ASI is turned on, then “accelerate to safety” is meaningless. You can’t make the process less risky by rushing through the risky period faster. You can’t make Russian roulette safer by playing it real fast, thus only being at risk for a short time.
Marvelous article! Correlates with my readings in Pinker, Rosling, and the authors (sorry, I don’t have their names, but they have done their homework) of the book “Superabundance.”
Bravo!
I don’t think I have a single criticism...paradigm changing writing. And I have indeed have had a paradigm change over the last few decades, from “Club of Rome “Limits to Growth” and Paul Erlich to graduate to the Abundance mentality of Pinker, Diamandes, and Hans Rosling.
This channel is doing important work in my opinion, as even most progressives and intellectuals are leery of growth as a virtue.
Rudi Hoffman
Port Orange, FL, multiverse.
Thank you for the comment and words of encouragement. The work the progress studies movement is doing is important and something a lot more people need to hear and internalize
It isn’t clear that the offense-defense balance directly affects the number of deaths in a conflict in the way that you claim. For example, machine guns nests benefitted the defenders significantly, but could quite easily have resulted in there being more deaths in warfare, due to the use of tactics that hadn’t yet accounted for them.
I don’t know why you’d think that compute would be the limiting factor here. Absent AI, there are limited ways in which to deploy more compute.
Interesting, well-researched article, IMO. The one component that may make the article more relevant has to do with digital Intellectual Property, which may or may not be the same as patentable ideas. While it seems obvious to me that IP is still property, my nephew, a self-avowed hacker, once said to me of his unabashedly stealing IP “The failure of these business models is not my problem.” Which I thought at the time and still think is a moral/ethical lapse of good judgement. Is stealing work product like or exactly like patent infringement? “Informations wants to be free!” is a rallying cry, but lacks nuance. Anyway, great article, thank you!
Digital IP is kind of interesting because IP is a creature of Congress. It isn’t like real property where there is a common law basis for it exactly (though many parts of the doctrine come from common law, like fair use). So basically it is up to Congress to determine what the right social mix is. With digital IP clearly there are some things that should remain IP and that doesn’t change just because the form changes (like stealing a movie) but there are aspects where the ease of replication may cause us to want to change the balance of some of these rights. It comes up more in copyright than in patents. (Larry Lessig has a great talk on “remix culture” and the ways in which laws might evolve to accommodate new art forms.) Thanks for reading!
Brilliant and clever summaries of really exciting projects, mostly in the conceptual phases, but still adjacent to current capabilities given appropriate attention and funding!
I wonder if another avenue might be to permit partial retirement via allowing people to draw a prorated share of their Social Security to subsidize remaining with a current employer but perhaps in a part-time role. Currently, there are very strict income limits for those who draw SS before full retirement age (67 years old for my generation). With the growing dearth of young people and labor-force participation stuck in the doldrums, we need to find ways to keep the older yet very productive people—in the first half of their 60s in particular—engaged. It would be good for society, the economy and for individual well-being.
Lovely, fact-based, paradigm shifting article. Bravo! 40 years ago, in college and grad school, my heroes were the “Club of Rome” and others calling for “simple living, high-thinking”. I realize now just how short-sighted, blazingly wrong I was. I wish Paul Erlich and most articles in “Free Inquiry” would have a similar epiphany!Rudi Hoffman, Port Orange, FL
Thanks a lot, and so admirable that you now admit having been “blazingly wrong”! Perhaps I should’ve described my own double epiphany in the article: initially I was vey much influenced by my mentor Etienne Vermeersch (whom I mention in the essay), who was a disciple of Paul Ehrlich and the Club of Rome. I thought overpopulation was the root of all environmental problems. The, reading books by Hans Rosling, Charles Mann and others, I became convinced that fears about “population bombs” and overpopulation were outdated and that population growth peaked in the 60s already and has trended inexorably downward ever since. But then I still assumed this should be a source of relief (“Phew, the mass starvation has been averted!”) and that it was good news for the planet as well. But then, after reading Empty Planet: The Shock of Global Population Decline, a book by two Canadians, as well as economists like Tyler Cowen and Patrick Collison about the “Great Stagnation”, I became convinced that population shrinkage is not good news at all, not even for the nature.
This idea makes a lot of sense, after you’ve decoupled health from age to a much greater degree than today. However, at that point I think the better idea would be “There is no longer a compelling reason for retirement or long gaps between jobs to be a matter of public expense at all, unless you’re doing it for some set of purposes the public cares about.” I think we need to normalize the idea of years-long gaps on resumes, among other things. But I don’t feel compelled to share the expense of different people’s career paths and life choices.
The reason we originally set the retirement age approximately equal to the average lifespan was to ease the burden on people planning for their own futures, so that no one had to suffer for living longer than they’d expected. The fact that we now live many years in relatively poor health near the end of our lives is a very different situation. and we’ve adapted the policy tool we had to try to cover it. The idea of retirement as a long vacation or reward for having worked 40 years is an anomaly. In the near term, we shouldn’t force people to work when they’re not able to, regardless of age, but we also maybe shouldn’t be paying living costs just because someone hits a certain age. Protests and strikes aside, I think a better solution would be to eliminate age-based pensions, and greatly expand disability-related and poverty-related social security programs to the point that everyone who outlives their ability to support themselves is still covered. If you like, phase it in gradually over the next 30 years so that anyone not near the beginning of their careers doesn’t have to worry about it. I realize this would still be a political firestorm, of course, but as noted, this is a scenario where every available option is considered unacceptable to large swaths of the population.
The takes here are suspiciously similar to Vitalik’s techno-optimism d/acc post https://vitalik.eth.limo/general/2023/11/27/techno_optimism.html#compatible Wondering if there are any thoughts on this?
I liked Vitalik’s post and generally agree
Wonderful summary of the history and analysis of the economic advantages and disadvantages to a patent system. I’m a patent lawyer who has been worrying about the question of whether patents promote progress for a couple of decades. https://www.symmetrybroken.com/whats-wrong-with-the-patent-system/
Lately, I’ve been partial to the model of progress articulated by North, Wallis, and Weingast (NWW) in Violence and Social Orders. https://www.symmetrybroken.com/what-the-patent-system-can-learn-from-violence-and-the-social-order/
Their observation is that a combination of free entry into political and economic competition has enabled adaptive efficiency, and hence promoted progress, in what they call open access societies.
Patents and corporations both began as royal prérogatives. The Venetian Patent Act is a historical anachronism, representing one of the first (if not the first) open access orders in human history. But it was circumscribed in geography (but not necessarily temporally!). NWW might say that Venetian patents opened access to Venetian markets for foreigners and non-elites who had improvements to the state of the art.
But more generally in view of NWW, I believe the question to ask is whether a given patent is necessary to formation of a corporation or not. Patents as a system of insurance (think third party debt collection for investors) is less appealing, although probably not as socially costly as critics of NPEs would have it. And note that some would distinguish between NPEs and PAEs (patent assertion entites) because universities, government labs, and others never intend to practice what they patent but also don’t rely upon litigation and licensing as their primary source of revenue.
“As Simon Rifkind, the Co-Chairman of the 1967 United States President’s Commission on the Patent put it, ‘the patent system is more essential to getting together the risk capital which it required to exploit and to develop and to apply the contributions of the genius inventor than to provide a stimulus for the actual mental contribution’”
Nothing has changed in over 50 years in this regard. The best reason to file a patent is because without one nobody reasonable is going to feel comfortable investing. But what fields remain in which this is true except for those in which regulatory approval is required before revenue?
“The question, then, is whether patents are associated (1) with more inventing activity overall, and (2) with more productive uses of the inventions once they are invented. In economic terms, we are more looking for evidence that patents facilitate capital formation and technology diffusion, both of which are well-studied and associated with economic growth.”
The evidence for multiple inventions is devastating to the case that patents are required for (1).
NWW have the right framework for analyzing (2), which is directly relevant to the first part of the economic terms you identify. The second part (diffusion) is more subtle, but best understood (I believe) through comparisons to alternative institutions of open source licensing and trade secret torts. Patents look favorable relative to trade secrets in many cases, but not to open source licensing in most.
The overarching theme seems to be what do we need the get people to work together toward bringing some technical dream to market after it has been demonstrated as possible by scientists? In the case of drugs or medical therapy, there’s no question that exclusive rights are required to attract capital. In the case of software, it’s less clear, and the dead weight costs of the system look more dubious.
Thanks again for the wonderful summary of a complex and nuanced question.
These are all great points. But I have to say I don’t agree that the question is whether patents are required for the formation of a corporation because that excludes a lot of R&D that might be done by an existing corporation. Maybe the best way to put it is whether it increases the share of R&D invested in science and technology. These are all so tricky to measure; “invention” is abstract, but R&D includes, for example, buying servers.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think that the evidence of multiple inventions is devastating for capital formation around inventions. The question is whether it increases invention overall, for example in helping companies attract financing or just providing more capital (for example, through licensing) to do other things. The evidence there is in favor of patents, but of course, to some extent capital formation bleeds into technology diffusion. For example, some of the papers I talk about show how patents help startups attract VC, get higher sales, and get exits more often. Is that evidence of attracting capital, or is that a longitudinal piece of evidence that the technology got more widely diffused? And how does that relate to the counter-factual of whether this increased the amount of invention? To me it’s clear that inventors invent because that’s who they are. Patents would help facilitate invention by helping inventors attract more resources to invent in the first place. (The result could be negative if the blocking rights become too severe of course!)
One last thing, I completely agree with you on the difference between NPEs and PAEs. On top of universities et al, I’d also add R&D companies that monetize through patent licensing, like ARM.
Just found this tidbit in the biography of the first patent commissioner Henry Ellsworth:
“Acting as Patent Commissioner, Ellsworth made a decision that profoundly affected the future of Hartford and Connecticut. The young Samuel Colt was struggling to establish a firm to manufacture his new revolver. Ellsworth became interested in Colt’s invention, and in 1836 made the decision to issue Colt U.S. Patent No. 138. On the basis of Ellsworth’s decision, Colt was able to raise some $200,000 from investors to incorporate the Patent Arms Manufacturing Company of Paterson, New Jersey, the forerunner of the mighty Colt arms manufacturing empire.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Leavitt_Ellsworth
+1 for the primacy of the role of patents as an institution for attracting capital that would otherwise be impossible to attract
We may have a legit disagreement about the role of patents in supporting the funding of at least certain types of R&D. The Bayh-Dole Act appears to have created a comparative advantage for universities and government labs in funding R&D. Is that the best model? There are reasonable arguments that it is not. But so long as universities and government labs have tech transfer offices, I’m dubious about curiosity driven R&D getting funded by for-profit corporations. Anyway the US market doesn’t appear to support it the way it did before the 1980s. But if you believe startups are doing curiosity driven research, then we’re talking about different things. For me, curiosity driven research is literally curiosity driven with no obvious expectation of commercial use. I don’t believe patents are either necessary or sufficient to funding this kind of research, which is sometimes called basic science.
I was exaggerating the weight of the evidence of multiple inventions a little in arguing against the need for patents to support scientific discoveries, but not much. I note that even in responding to this point, you reach for the desire to “help[] companies attract financing or just providing more capital” as beneficial. But that’s where we agree patents and licensing are socially beneficial. The question is whether they’re necessary or beneficial to get to the point where attracting capital makes sense. I’m arguing no because the history of science and engineering demonstrates that fundamental breakthroughs are not predictable enough to be funded commercially. AT&T and IBM were able to do it because they were monopolies at a scale that hasn’t been replicated since then.
So we agree that inventors invent because that’s who they are. We both want to ensure we have inventors, and that they get compensated well enough to ensure we get the benefit of their work.
But who are these inventors? Are they scientists who we also want to teach and publish their discoveries? Are they engineers building the next great platform for human society to grow? If the former, why wouldn’t government grants be sufficient? If the latter, why not venture capital? That seems like the right way to frame the potential disagreement here.
In the end, there just aren’t many actual people who fit anywhere between these two archetypes. I actually have met a few of them, but they are exceptionally rare. And I don’t know that we need to modify the institutions we have today to encourage more to follow in their footsteps. Maybe. But from where I sit today, I feel safer saying patents are best for society when used only as a mechanism for attracting capital to a venture capital startup or other for-profit corporation.
I love the work you’re doing. I believe there are dysfunctions in the way curiosity-driven academic research gets funded that have and will continue to have major implications for technological progress and economic development. I’m also sympathetic to the sketch of possible reforms. Increasing competition and closing feedback loops on the performance of funding decisions would likely produce tangible benefits.
What I’m wondering about more these days is how things work at the micro level. In my experience, there is a very clear and observable difference between the kinds of researchers who are driven by curiosity and the kinds of researchers who are driven by a desire to see their work have a tangible impact on the world during their lifetime. VC funding has done plenty for the latter. How can we encourage and help the former?
There is probably a baseline level of curiosity driven research that will happen no matter what we do. There always has been. Many of the people who do curiosity driven research do it despite having to make huge personal sacrifices. Mostly what we need to do for them is keep other people out of their way.
But people are people, and very few can live as hermits forever. I believe that in many cases, the curiosity driven research accelerates as the curiosity-driven researchers find a community of kindred spirits in which they can share their ideas freely. When fear of being scooped and losing funding is replaced by a infinite, positive-sum game of seeing who can come up with the coolest new theories or results, the work tends to accelerate and multiply in a combinatorial way.
Where are those physical environments today? Bell Labs had one. IBM ARC had one. I feel like the Flatiron Institute has one. Where else?
In the end, funding is only part of the answer here.
Curiosity is already a very strong motivator, we just need to enable it and get out of the way. Give scientists funding without making them narrowly constrain their goals, dial down their ambition, or spend half their time writing grants. Then give them the research freedom to pursue that curiosity wherever it leads. It’s not easy but it is pretty simple.
I agree with that. But having seen IBM ARC up close in person in the 1990s, my gut is that there is some critical mass of curiosity—a threshold number of curious researchers all working in the same place—that leads to a kind of magic you don’t see when the same people are more distributed geographically.
Good point, I agree! Something important to creating the right research lab team and culture.
I’d add that Polanyi worried about the question of the integrity of the fabric of scientific knowledge. That is, he asked what was the ultimate source of a geologist’s or a layperson’s confidence that the state of the art knowledge in say — x-ray crystallography — had integrity. His concern was that, in science there was nothing analogous to the function of arbitrating prices in markets and between markets to ‘keep people honest’ in their valuations.
His answer was what he called his ’theory of overlapping neighbourhoods”. It was “held by a multitude of individuals” connected in a fiduciary network, “each of whom endorses the other’s opinion at second hand, by relying on the consensual chains which link him to all the others through a sequence of overlapping neighborhoods”. Polanyi would have appreciated businessman Charlie Munger’s claim that “the highest form a civilization can reach is a seamless web of deserved trust”.
We can apply an analogous process of relying more on those with a good record of shorter term prediction in making longer term predictions.
Section 6 of this report discusses the way in which one might ‘bootstrap’ longer-term vision by using shorter term forecasting performance as one criterion for determining longer-term forecasting prowess — together with deliberation on determining shorter run expectations that can be used to test the progress of longer term projects.
Though I don’t think he’s cited (his contribution is in noting the need for such a thing rather than identifying it — because that is pretty obvious), this builds on Polanyi’s overlapping neighbourhoods idea.
Thanks for the post Jason. Most or all the mechanisms proposed tend to assume that people are self-interested rather than a mix of self-and-other interest. They play to Hobbesian not Aristotelian stereotypes of the way we are. The scientist turned philosopher Michael Polanyi would argue that many of these functions have powerful ethical dimensions and I’d argue that the structures we’ve put in place, in appealing to self-interest tend to crowd out more ethical motivations. Bureaucracies breed careerism. So I’d want to introduce more randomisation and other kinds of mechanisms to minimise the extent to which the accountability mechanisms we set up don’t just produce more accountability theatre. There are also ways of selecting for merit that don’t involve people performing for their superiors in an organisation. Thus the republic of Venice used the mechanism of the Brevia by which a sub-group of the 2,000+ strong population with political power were chosen by lottery. They then convened behind closed doors and then had a secret ballot. The idea was to insulate the merit selection process from favours to power. It seems to have worked a charm helping Venice to be the only city state in Italy that got through the 500 years from the beginning of the 13th century without any successful coups or civil wars.
Hmm, I don’t agree with how you are characterizing my assumptions about human nature. I’m not assuming that scientists are after money or prestige. I assume most of them, or at least the best of them, are motivated by curiosity, the desire to discover and to know, and the value of scientific knowledge for humanity.
Re accountability, I frankly think we could do with a bit less of it. Accountability is always in tension with research freedom.
Re people performing for their superiors: I actually think scientists performing for their managers would be a much healthier model than what we have today, which is scientists performing for their grant committees. I have another piece on this that I plan to publish soon.
Thanks Jason, I don’t think you’ve understood what I was trying to get at.
OK, sorry!
It’s an interesting idea.
I generally disagree with some of the premise, but I do think it’s interesting. Taking advantage of one’s health and youth while one has it seems tempting.
On the other hand, worker productivity presumably goes down pretty fast once the worker in question is in their 60s-70s, just because they’re getting older, so there may not be anyone who wants to employ them.
You’ve also got the issue that social security benefits do somewhat depend on how much someone earned in their life (I believe, I’m no expert) - so what would be the benefit someone takes in their 30th year?
Yes, well maybe we will also expand our healthspan, or have AI to help us with worker productivity? 🤓
The case I make is for social security is a blend between Singapore’s system and our current 401k system. The employer contributes 20% of their salary to their 401k and their employer matches it. They can use those funds to take mini sabbaticals throughout their lives, rather than one long one at the end. But yes, it’s tied to income, so the more you make and the longer you stay in the workforce, the more money you save! (You won’t have very much money in there at the beginning, but you’ll have a lot by the end!)
I suspect that the board will look better over time as more information comes out.
Here’s some quotes from the Time article where Sam was named CEO of the Year:
In other words, it appears that Sam started the fight and not them. Is it really that crazy for the board to attempt to remove a CEO who was attempted to undermine the board’s oversight over him?
They were definitely outclassed in terms of their political ability, but I don’t think they were incompetent. It’s more that when you go up against a much more skilled actor, they end up making you look incompetent.
The thing about e/acc is it’s a mix of the reasonable and the insane doom cult.
The reasonable parts talk about AI curing diseases ect, and ask to speed it up.
Given some chance of AI curing diseases, and some chance of AI caused extinction, it’s a tradeoff.
Now where the optimal point of the tradeoff lands on depend on whether we just care about existing humans, or all potential future humans. And also on how big we think the risk of AI extinction is.
If we care about all future humans, and think ai is really dangerous, we get a “proceed with extreme caution” position. A position that accepts the building of ASI eventually, but is quite keen to delay it 1000 years if that buys any more safety.
On the other end, some people think the risks are small, and mostly care about themselves/current humans. They are more e/acc.
But there are also various “AI will be our worthy successors”, “AI will replace humans, and that’s great” type e/acc who are ok with the end of humanity.
I don’t see any specific criticism of effective altruism other than “I don’t like the vibes”.
And the criticism from “acrimonious corporate politics”.
“Helen Toner was apparently willing to let OpenAI be destroyed because of a general feeling that the organization was moving too fast or commercializing too much.”
Between the two of them, a philosophy that aims to prevent catastrophic risk in the future seems to be creating its own catastrophes in the present.
Shutting down a company and some acrimonious board room discussion is hardly “catastrophic”. And it can be the right move, if you think the danger exceeds the value the company is creating.
Ie if a company makes nuclear power plants that are melt downs just waiting to happen, or kids toys full of lead or something, shutting that company down is a good move.
A potential area of overlap between effective altruism and Roots of Progress is the non-profit New Harvest, which funds research into making meat, eggs, and milk without animals.
Great point. I wish we had more ideas about how to improve this. So many places we might try to fix this: philanthropists might redirect funding. We might try to provide career paths for these institutions’ employees that spanned the space of current problems and not just the one problem they work on.
There is an argument to be made that e/acc is the Jungian shadow to EA.
There is a fundamental difference in principles between the two movements in that EA gradually and then suddenly fell into a paternalistic disregard (if not disdain) for the negative feedback that the market provides—e.g., Helen Toner’s belief that the dissolution of OpenAI was an acceptable alternative to resolving differences with the CEO. But with this exception, most of the principles espoused by EA (scientific mindset, openness to falsifying evidence, integrity, and teamwork) are shared by e/acc.
But EA started with philosophical principles and became a mass movement. e/acc more or less has begun as a mass movement, and is only gradually and haltingly identifying its principles.
Both EA and e/acc reflexively repress the valid differences they have in their approach to promoting progress. While e/acc is now on the ascendant and EA on the ropes, until e/acc or EA can integrate their shadow, both will fall short of their potential in activating human energy in service of progress.
What would a fully integrated vision of progress look like? It would acknowledge the valid view of e/acc that markets generally provide the best mechanism for gathering and processing information about the needs of dispersed groups of individuals while at the same time acknowledging and grappling with the reality that there are some important needs that cannot be met by markets (either because the preconditions for market formation have not been or cannot be met).
But I would be very careful posting this sort of essay online right now. You are either for or against at the moment. Anybody trying to nuance things is likely to be sidelined.
EA here.
Doesn’t seem true as far as I can tell. E/acc doesn’t want to expose it’s beliefs to falsification; that’s why it’s almost always about attacking the other side and almost never about arguing for things on the object level.
E/acc doesn’t care about integrity either. They’re very happy to Tweet all kinds of weird conspiracy theories.
Anyway, I could be biased here, but that’s how I see it.
I can understand why you say what you say about falsification. The way the e/acc community is operating right now is more crusade than critical. But I haven’t seen the evidence for lack of integrity that you appear to have seen. Not saying it’s not there; just I haven’t seen it.
I wouldn’t write off the people behind e/acc just yet, however. In the end, the scientific mindset may win out over the short term desire to score points and dunk on a competing vision that has been embarrassed in various ways.
If there were any part of e/acc that you might find worth incorporating into EA, what might it be?
Most recent thing that pops into mind is Beff trying to spread the meme that EA is just a bunch of communists.
E/acc seems to do a good job of bringing people together in Twitter spaces.
Hadn’t seen that. Too bad he’s misrepresenting facts.
But that hints at what might be worth reevaluating in EA. Jung had this notion of individuation, in which we have to incorporate into our personality conflicting aspects of ourselves in order to fully realize our capabilities. EA seems very academic or analytical in its approach to promoting progress whereas e/acc is more political or emotional. I believe it will take both to realize a future in which progress is accelerated in a way that benefits even the most vulnerable members of society.
In theory, if they could be made to work, self-driving cars would be one of the best technologies ever. In practice, the technology seems stuck in a rut. Although exact statistics are hard to come by, the number of human interventions seems to remain high.
There is a very high burden of proof for self-driving car companies like Cruise and Waymo; they need to convincingly demonstrate, using robust statistical evidence, that their vehicles are indeed significantly safer than human drivers in the same locales. Cruise, Waymo, et al. have certainly had plenty of time to produce such evidence, but they have yet to do so.
As bullish as I once was on self-driving cars, I think it is reasonable for people to be worried about the potential danger posed by these prototypes driving around their streets. If self-driving car companies can’t prove their worries are misplaced, then, well, banning such testing on public roads doesn’t strike me as unreasonable. At the very least, there seems to be little excuse for taking safety drivers out of prototype cars.
My view on self-driving car bans is influenced by my view that fundamental research breakthroughs are needed to make wide-scale commercialization of self-driving cars a reality. I don’t think the bottleneck is more public road testing. Deep learning researchers need to figure things out like self-supervised video prediction. Until then, self-driving cars will continue to spin their wheels.
I think Ezra Klein has a lucid take on the “manifesto”. Ezra observes that it’s a covert anti-wokeness rant:
In Ezra’s New York Times column on Andreessen’s rant, he writes:
I would describe myself as a techno-optimist, but I find Andreessen’s rant distasteful and alienating. I think allowing Andreessen to define what constitutes techno-optimism would do significant damage to the techno-optimist cause.
I have never particularly liked the term “techno-optimism” anyway. “Optimism” on its own is confusing enough. “Techno-optimism” implies that not only do you think we can solve all problems, but that technology will be the solution to all of them, which is not really true.
What’s a good alternative word for someone who has a strong conviction in the past, present, and future benefits of technology?
Good question, I don’t know. People have been talking about “progress studies” or the “progress movement” or “progress community”, and others have talked about the “abundance agenda”, but none of those lend themselves to personal labels/identities…
Hi Jason,
This is great, I would love to read more about how you believe Progress Studies could become a philosophy on par with Effective Altruism. I think an advantage EA has is its roots in John Stuart Mill and some of his contemporaries. Personally, I’ve found it harder to pinpoint which philosophers were early proponents of Progress Studies—my sense is that the idea of building, whatever the trials and tribulations, is fundamentally a Stoic idea. Indeed, I think Ayn Rand’s ideas, particularly on the importance of individualism, are important if one would like to create an epistemic history of Progress Studies.
Thanks for sharing this draft.
Thanks Robert. I think progress studies needs a more well-defined value system. I have gestured at “humanism” as the basis for this, but it needs much more.
I agree that Rand’s ideas are important here, particularly her view of creative/productive work as a noble activity and of scientists, inventors and business leaders as heroic figures.
Style suggestion. You could put the penultimate paragraph before the preceding one and delete the final paragraph. That will decrease the preachiness factor at the end and the repetition of ideas in the last and third to last paragraph. Plus going straight from we need serious people to the paragraph about those people is what your structure is asking for.
Thanks, good point about the flow here.
I’m working on an essay on patents and progress. Does anyone want to give it a read and give me some feedback?
Since you’ve highlighted the women in these paintings, it’s worth noting that one of the first scientific studies advocating the use of masks in surgery was written by Alice Hamilton, a Chicago physician, in 1905. Quoting my article here (it may be paywalled):
Thank you for sharing! I love the tagline on your article about masks bringing us together over the past 400 years, much like medical progress. Also, I’m having amazing thoughts about progress that you can directly link me to accessing this article from 1905.
For something that is long term, but only effects the property of 1 person, like the field example, the market prices it in and it’s not an externality.
No one is significantly incentivized to stop climate change, because no one person bears a significant fraction of the damage caused.
Politicians are far from perfect, but at least they have any incentive to tackle these big problems at all.
Well if it affects one plot of land that is currently the property of just 1 person it can still be an externality because lots of different people will own this land in the future.
It could be an externality, if the land was randomly reassigned a new owner every year or something. But if the land is sold, that is taken into account. It isn’t an externality. Capitalism has priced this effect in.
I wonder if there is also a psychological factor at work. Something along the lines of: a major world crisis, especially one that causes a lot of deaths, makes you think about the ephemeral nature of life and what’s really important, and you either decide to have kids or to stop putting it off. Imagine someone reading about deaths among the elderly and thinking, “I really want Mom and Dad to meet their grandkids—better get on it.”
Curious if Claudia Goldin’s work is relevant here?
Yes, the psychological factor is often cited for discrete events that bring people closer together or highlight a stark idea of what is important in their life. But did COVID initially present a more troubling future? That might work against this idea, because you are pessimistic about the future of a world subject to a global pandemic. However, your point might hold differently for the women highlighted here, since they are in a much more secure place than their peers subject to exposure and uncertainty about their employment.
I’ve also seen discussion about how the opportunity cost of time—what else women could be doing during this period—fast-forwarded plans. Nothing much to do with my free time- might as well have a baby! That could speak to Claudia’s work because her thesis about women’s late fertility has to do with the cost of establishing a career. The time cost of this delays having a family. In the COVID period, many time costs were slashed- i.e. commuting, meetings, besides most social obligations. Might have seemed more feasible to start families with a 2000/2001 view of the balance of time available for both pursuits.
The Shirky Principle: “Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution.”
Yep. I wanted to lay out a somewhat more detailed accounting of it, as a basis for future work on how institutions are designed—and how they should be designed, if we want them to be more effective.
Eli, this is great. And useful!
I went to the EAA event in Oshkosh last year to see the experimental community first-hand. I was struck by who was there. It was amateurs, sure, but also a lot of pro pilots who had a side interest in experimental aircraft. It’s not just another type of person. The designation gives everyone a place to try new things. Also, it was full of EVTOLs. When we eventually get flying cars, I suspect we’ll point at the experimental designation as an enabling part of the process.
Nice piece, thanks. I hadn’t noticed HC’s latest video, but am also a fan so look forward to watching the full thing.
An initial thought, though: there seem at least a couple of places where one can grant his facts yet argue his interpretation of these as “good” is backwards.
For instance, one can argue that lower preindustrial working hours reflect chronic underemployment and unemployment, one of that society’s chief problems, and that industrialisation alleviated this problem (and even that this was one of the great initial benefits of industrialisation).
And HC’s following point ought to be seen as evidence against the superiority of preindustrial life:
Essentially he’s just pointed out that living standards were so low that the majority of budgets had to be spent just on food.
Those many free days the workers had came as a courtesy of Catholicism. Look up the amount of regulation and holidays they had. This was, in fact, one of the reasons why Protestants were so comparatively successful. It was also part of the reason why they were resented in Catholic-majority countries; they got richer and were doctrinally snobbish about it. But I guess attacking Protestantism in favor of medical Caholocism would probably be the wrong sort of spicy for this YouTuber.
Regarding the structure of the workday. Modern-day physical labor still looks like this in many cases. Having worked over the summer in Landscaping and Carpentry this schedule is still present. And OP mentioned the case of office Jobs already.
What a helpful and comprehensive guide to the economic study of human capital and productivity. Thank you for writing this! I like the idea of a model as a good way of testing various hypotheses. Models are undefeated for inferring causality. As a matter of prediction or even for generating hypotheses, I’m less optimistic about models.
Pulling on the institutional thread does seem like the right move, as opposed to ideas. They do at least roughly map to the slow pre-enlightenment, fast modernity and slowing post-modern pattern of progress. Still, privileging institutions over individuals as the most important factor doesn’t make much intuitive sense to me, since each new idea only happens once. It’s possible that institutions are getting in the way of idea execution (regulation, etc.), but missing key ingredient seems to be coordination more than anything.
The “one-time-boom” version of the ideas are getting harder to find argument is one you hear often that does seem to map to the general pattern of progress and is Cowen’s favored variant. I’m partial to the idea that in the wartime hurry to push innovation we reordered our institutions to achieve great short-run gains at the expense of a kludgy emergent system that was working fairly well. Over-optimization of talent sorting and centrally directed R&D may extract progress from promising individuals at the same time that it destroys the system for creating promising individuals. Somewhere between a “Seeing Like a State” argument and a more individual and metaphysical explanation.
I like the idea, especially for the experimentation in governance it would foster.
One possible issue is that the democrat/republican divide often tends to be urban/rural, rather than by state.
Ideally, this sort of change would be accompanied by a redrawing of state lines, enabling both a) more than 50 states and b) better alignments of geography/population to statehood.
You’re reading my mind!!!!!!! My next essay is about what would happen if we divided the country into city-states!! (And it would be for those exact reasons: the divide is urban/rural, and we’d be better aligned with our governments!)
I look forward to reading it.
Unfortunately, I’m not optimistic about any of these changes actually happening; from what little I know a constitutional convention seems necessary, and that seems well outside the realm of the possible.
Yes, it might not be possible right now to call a constitutional convention and reorganize into city states. But it’s entirely possible to give more autonomy (and fiscal autonomy) to local and state governments. Sometimes I think it’s worth writing about/thinking about the ideal so then we can see how we can get there (rather than working with what we have now and trying to tweak it slightly better).
I see an issue with all of this, and it is the bottleneck that is storage/infrastructure
You cannot expect all of the solar energy storage to be serviced by batteries, because those degrade if they hold energy for too long
The solution to this is intercontinental HVDC lines, and a bit of hydrogen too
The hydrogen for storage is very easy, even tho it’s a tricky material, we can manage it for unexpected solar dips
However intercontinental HVDC, which are VERY needed once we start to use more than half of our energy needs from solar, require INTERNATIONAL cooperation, and a lot of commitment from many countries
I don’t know if the international geopolitical scene is prepared for such a project, and I think this will delay solar adoption in your timeline after 2030ish
This is a great piece! Thanks very much for posting.
Thank you!!
Maybe I’m missing something, but this post doesn’t seem to actually back up the (strong!) claim in its title. Seems more like you’re defending “Something Is Getting Harder To Find But It May Or May Not Be Ideas”.
No you’re right, I had a section in there evaluating the different possible reasons for slow down but it got too long so that will be coming in future posts. Sorry for the hyperbolic title!
Agree on these points in general—and believe this is one of the major reasons for optimism around AI. AI models seem particularly good at navigating high dimensional landscapes if we structure them appropriately. My theory is this will allows us to hugely increase #2, as we now have a better method for searching the solution space.
Comments in no particular order:
Marc Andreessen continues to sound just like himself. I think this is good for the piece, it feels very genuine. In the main I agree.
Markets is the biggest section. This feels telling and also kind of wasteful. It also had the clunkiest bits which were, but of course, the ones about economics. By contrast the Technology section felt a bit thin, but I could easily forgive a certain amount of c’mon, you know why you are here in the effort.
What is this for, really? I can tell who it is for, because it doesn’t seem like it would register much with people who didn’t already mostly agree. But what problem is the manifesto solving? Guessing by some of the keywords included in the bad ideas list, this feels like maybe trying to further crystallize e/acc into a broader concern?
On the flip side, this bit here under The Enemy makes it seem more like talking book:
Purely as a matter of style, I thought the “we believe” and “we had a problem” chunks were great, that’s what I want out of a manifesto. I would jettison all the quotes and argumentation, moving names and sources to footnotes or something; I mostly found it distracting, like he was so used to the argumentation side of things he had trouble letting it go (Not that I blame him, I would have the same issue were I to write a manifesto). I thought some of them were compacted too much, like compressing all the progress in agriculture into the green revolution, which sort of deprived it of emotional impact (not least because of term confusion, since green revolution shows up in advertising campaigns and slogans constantly meaning something entirely different).
All that said, I liked it and I wish more public figures like Marc would do things like this.
.
Hi Annie, thanks for your detailed response. Please be a bit more respectful. You can make your counterarguments without using terms like “absurdly weak” or “nonsensical”. Thank you.
I disagree with (5), that the long-term historical pattern is acceleration (and more specifically, I don’t think that the first three charts in your linked piece are sufficient to demonstrate this).
At the frontier, real GDP per person growth has remained remarkably constant for the past ~200 years.
The growth rate for the world might show acceleration, but I understand this as a compositional effect, as more countries leave the zero/low growth regime and experience rapid catch-up growth. But in the long-run each country’s growth rate will converge with the roughly constant rate at the frontier. Eventually we’ll run out of countries joining the modern growth regime, and I’d then expect world real GDP per capita growth to slow. This paper from Robert Lucas describes the dynamics I’m talking about—see Figure 3 in particular (world growth accelerates and then slows and converges to the rate at the frontier).
And due to the near universal pattern of the Demographic Transition, I’d also expect population growth to trend towards zero in the long-run. So I wouldn’t expect acceleration in the growth rate of total GDP either.
(FYI, I’m repeating my reasons for being unconvinced of David Roodman’s piece on accelerating growth, which are in also in this Twitter thread).
Hope this is helpful!
No, you’re looking at too short a timescale [edit: to be clear, this is referring to your specific point about constant growth rates over the last 200 years]. Zoom out to the last few thousand, or few tens of thousand years.
See this from Paul Romer: https://paulromer.net/speeding-up-and-missed-opportunities-evidence/
Key excerpt:
[Further edit for clarity:] I think your contention is: there are basically two growth regimes. There is a low-growth regime, which most countries were in for most of history. Then there is a high-growth regime, which countries enter once they industrialize. This is an acceleration but it’s a one-time thing. Any seeming longer-term, more-spread-out acceleration is just a compositional effect.
That is a reasonable hypothesis, but I think it’s wrong. It may be true that there are discrete growth regimes, but I think there are more than two of them, historically. Progress was extremely slow in stone age. It sped up somewhat in the early agricultural age. It sped up more in the modern era after Gutenberg, Bacon, etc. It sped up more after industrialization. And I think it will speed up still more in the future—possibly after we cross some next threshold, whatever that is exactly.
That said, I agree that it’s possible that the future could hold something different, and the demographic transition is a good reason why. Chad Jones has drawn attention to this. We need more people and more brains to continue growth. I tend to think we will solve this by (1) solving the fertility crisis and getting back to high rates of population growth, and/or (2) using AI to substitute for human researchers.
Yes, that’s essentially the stylised model I use – i.e. I understand the long-run history of GDP per capita growth at the frontier as a transition from stagnation (/a very low rate) into sustained growth at a roughly constant rate. And it is very stylised (and I allow that the take-off may have been quite gradual), but I still think it works quite well as a basic framework.
And I agree that Romer’s backwards projection implies that the rate of GDP per capita growth at the frontier has increased over time; but it doesn’t prove that this took the form of a constant acceleration across all of history, rather than a roughly discrete acceleration (described above).
I don’t yet think that the Maddison data supports the idea of accelerating frontier growth across millennia. I think we need better country and year coverage to establish that claim. Better country coverage because the country at the frontier changes over time. Even if we see constant acceleration in country X’s GDP per capita growth rate between (say) 1-1800AD, it is unlikely that it was consistently at the frontier. We need to splice together data from various countries to get a timeseries of frontier growth. And better year coverage to avoid us relying on data points which may just so happen to be at a low or high point in a fluctuating cycle. We might have a higher estimate of GDP per capita in country Y for AD1000 than AD1, but I’d need more convincing to interpret that as long-run growth rather than our data point for AD1000 incidentally being a good year (or at the high point of a cycle which may span generations) and/or our data point for AD1 incidentally being a bad year (/low point in a cycle).
FWIW, this Jones & Romer paper names “accelerating growth” as one of the key stylized facts that growth models should explain. See pp. 13–16.
One example of accelerating progress they give is from Nordhaus’s famous “price of light” paper:
Interesting and thought-provoking, great read!
I read recently on some substack that a lot of the gains in cheaper Solar power are actually a result of the industry being highly subsidized, much more than other forms of energy—presumably indicating that it’s an unsustainable form of growth we can’t expect to continue were it to be pitted against e.g Nuclear in a free(er) market(?).
Does this change your conclusions in any way? What am I missing? Also, how do you view the future of nuclear (fission) energy in light of the potential of solar?
All forms of energy have all kinds of subsidies, and Nuclear probably more than any other on a “per kWh generated” basis.
Nuclear fission is awesome technology but will it be able to compete with solar on price—seems unlikely to me.
I see the appeal and I like the aliveness, but I dislike the lack of nuance and disagree on the specifics.
Which specifics?
E.g., “Our enemy is the Precautionary Principle”, unqualified
To be exact, what he said was:
I interpret that to mean not that he’s against precaution, but that he thinks terms like that are being used to promote bad ideas.
Also, the Precautionary Principle is objectively bad:
–David Deutsch, The Beginning of Infinity
–Matt Ridley, How Innovation Works
You might want to Ctrl+F here for mentions of the precautionary principle: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169207020301230
Thanks. What I see is that this paper specifies “a non-naive precautionary principle” or “an intelligent application of the precautionary principle,” which implies something about what the precautionary principle might end up being in practice without those qualifiers…
The precautionary principle is objectively bad? That’s a massive assumption that only holds if you are somehow confident that nuclear war, engineered pandemics, advanced AI derailing society etc. are all impossible, right?
No. The Precautionary Principle doesn’t just mean “take precautions when warranted.” No one would be against that. It has become more like a bias towards inaction, regardless of cost/benefit calculations. See Ridley’s quote above, about how this “superficially sensible idea” was transformed into something irrational.
I think that this is broadly correct. One of the biggest problems of health care in America is that the feedback mechanisms that control cost (such as honest and public prices) are completely broken, and fixing them would likely go a large way towards solving the problem.
I enjoyed this post, especially the concept of an error budget which was new to me.
As an implementation detail, these meta-regulations seem to fit into concept of House Rules, a version of which probably exists in most legislative/regulatory bodies. However, AFAIK these are usually set by the body itself, so perhaps the meta-regulation would need to be written into the constitution or charter of the body.
Thanks!
I have no idea how these would be implemented—I’m not well enough versed in the practical realities of politics and legislation. What are House Rules?
For some of them, I agree—a constitutional amendment would be ideal.
I’ve heard people criticize this for lacking nuance, not engaging with critics, and not citing sources. I feel this misunderstands the genre. It’s a manifesto. It’s not supposed to be nuanced or appeal to critics; it’s supposed to be even a little divisive, drawing a line in the sand, recruiting those who are already sympathetic and ignoring or even repelling those who are not. It’s not supposed to argue for its claims, it’s supposed to stake out some beliefs and declare them.
If you just don’t like manifestos of any stripe, then fine; but it never makes sense to criticize a piece for not being in a different genre.
This works both ways imo. You can boldly state things in a manifesto, and people can boldly criticize it.
Haha, fair point! (Although I would suggest that the most productive way to do that would be to pen an opposing manifesto.)
Marc is a modern-day Thomas Jefferson. I agree with every word he wrote and find it inspirational and a great encapsulation of how I feel about tech and what it can do for society. The movement needs a rallying cry and a big tent to go with it. I intentionally mention Jefferson, as someone whose actions often fell short of his inspirational vision and words. Marc is not without criticism in this regard, but who is? This is not the time for criticizing our friends, and as such, I won’t nitpick the things I would alter in such a manifesto. I hope it can help formalize this ethos into a practical movement for society, especially for those of us in the US who feel politically homeless.
Community self-regulation among lobster fishermen.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.0702241104
Some negative externalities and other problems of progress that may or may not be considered solved:
how technology can make war more deadly
how it can assist oppressive/authoritarian regimes
technological unemployment
unclean/unsafe food, water supplies
resource depletion
pollution of all kinds
carcinogens
Positive externalities are like, almost all of human wealth?
Quoted by Tyler Cowen here
My list now includes:
Sulfur Dioxide
Clean Air Act
Montreal Protocol
Lead Paint
Lead in Gasoline
Public Radio
Mandatory 8th grade education
Secondhand Smoke
Public Transit Subsidy
Automobile Emissions Standards
Fishing Quota System Australia
Bees and Orchards
Cattle Ranchers and Crop Farmers
—
Climate Change
Space Debris
Traffic Congestion
Violent Crime
Assuming the Data is Correct: legal Marijuana
To add on to what John Buridan already correctly shared about major changes to the tax code in the early 20th century you might want to check out the Federalist Paper No. 30-36: https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers
Hamilton and the Federalists were arguing for taxation and a central bank to deal with the Revolutionary War debts that the U.S. had racked up (foreign loans and veteran backpay and pensions). Since direct taxes were declared illegal in the constitution, most of the money raised by the Federal Government was in the form of tariffs: https://www.ttb.gov/public-information/special-feature
Abraham Lincoln instituted the first national income tax to raise funds desperately needed to prepare the Union Army for the Civil War, and to administer a more complicated system of taxation, he also created the IRS. There were numerous repeals and court battles until in 1909 the constitutionality was settled by the 16th amendment. https://www.amazon.com/Ways-Means-Lincoln-Cabinet-Financing/dp/0735223572
To answer your question, the big driver of federal taxation for the past 80 years has been social security (and medicare to a lesser extent), instituted in the 1930s(medicare in the 1960s). If you sum up state and local revenues (mostly property and sales) they are greater than federal, when you take out insurance programs ($ you get back) and intergovernmental transfers ($ state/local get back) from federal taxes. Here’s a good breakdown of the revenue sources: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-breakdown-revenues-among-federal-state-and-local-governments
To answer why there’s so much federal taxation relative to state and local, even if there’s greater spending by state and local, you have to examine the expansion of federal government programs from the New Deal through WWII, to the Great Society, the Cold War, the Green Movement, and 9/11.
Dept. of HHS was created in the early 1950s along with medicare/medicaid.
NASA in the 1950s to carve out space programs from DoD.
NSF in the 1950s to unify and manage federal R&D.
HUD in the 1960s to support urban renewal.
Dept. of Transportation in the late 1960s to regulate interstate travel (mostly air traffic and highways).
EPA in the early 1970s to regulate clean air and water.
US Consumer Product Safety in the 1970s for consumer protection.
Dept. of Energy to carve out nuclear weapons from DoD and manage U.S nuclear power in the 1970s.
Dept. of Education in the early 1980s to measure performance and redistribute funds to ameliorate inequities.
VA in the late 1980s to carve out veteran health from the DoD.
Dept. of Homeland Security to standardize and unify national security.
As you can see, many of these agencies and departments deal with externalities states may impose on their neighbors, collective action problems that encourage bad actors to defect and of course, plenty of pork projects to spread federal money around the country.
Ok wow, this is so helpful. Thank you so so much!
I agree with your conclusion, Maxwell, and this piece was a joy to read. Jason’s comment also seems correct to me in that subdomains very clearly exhibit the phenomenon of ideas getting harder locally. Still, the fallacy of composition tells us to be wary of summing up these subdomains. Diversification across subdomains may the answer to how the innovation frontier can continue to expand despite ideas getting locally more challenging.
I’m curious to hear what you think is the scarce resource. After trying my hand at starting a company and working in venture capital, I’ve come to appreciate that often the idea is quite important. The old hobbyhorse of execution vs idea feels like a false dichotomy though. The best companies do not spring forth from entrepreneurs’ heads like Athena, fully dressed for battle, but they are also not A/B tested into existence. Similarly, science seems to move forward through a combination of dogged empirical work and theoretical insight.
Here are a few areas I’d like to read more about: courage, ignorance/fools and subversion/tricksters. I always think of the strange case of Medicine Nobel Dr. Barry Marshall, who debunked long established medical beliefs about stress being the cause of gastric ulcers by performing risky self experimentation that involved infecting his gut with bacteria: https://asm.org/Podcasts/MTM/Episodes/The-Self-Experimentation-of-Barry-Marshall-MTM-144
I am pretty convinced that β>0, even though I also think there is some contribution to slowdown from other factors. Some reasons:
Bloom et al observe β>0 not only in the economy at large but in various subdomains, such as transistors and Moore’s Law. If you want to argue that this is all caused by society’s resistance to innovation (which is real), then you have to argue that society also resists innovation in integrated circuits (which… doesn’t seem like a thing).
There are simple intuitions for β>0 based on low-hanging fruit and burden of knowledge (both of which you mentioned).
Scott Alexander gives some intuition for why we should expect β>0 here; if it weren’t then progress would long ago have accelerated to insane levels. In fact, I haven’t checked the math, but I think if β=0 you end up with a hyperbolic curve where GDP goes infinite in finite time; see this other Alexander post (although the paper that post is based on is kind of silly and not written by an expert in the field; Kremer 1993 is a better reference for this idea and is worth reading).
We arguably see similar patterns not only in technology and the economy but also in science and the arts. Holden Karnofsky makes an argument for this here.
That said, I am also pretty convinced that there is a contribution from institutions and other factors. (To paraphrase something Eli Dourado said to me, TFP growth is slow in Venezuela, and no one thinks that is because ideas are harder to find in Venezuela.)
I basically agree with everything you’ve said here.
On the subdomains point, you can have decreasing returns within each subdomain but constant returns overall if you keep finding new subdomains. I think this is an accurate model of progress. It captures ideas like paradigm shifts and also integrates the intuitions for low-hanging fruit and burden of knowledge in a way which still allows rapid progress. My favorite example is the Copernican revolution. There were huge obstacles from burden of knowledge and low-hanging fruit in Ptolemaic astronomy. It took so much extra data and education to improve the epicycles of Mercury by a few decimal points. But once astronomy moved to a new model, there was a whole new grove of low hanging fruit and almost none of the investment in Ptolemaic astronomy was necessary to make progress so the burden of knowledge was reset.
Absolutely true that new subdomains open up new areas of low-hanging fruit. It is the “stacked S-curve” model.
Not immediately clear whether what this means for β>0. I think this model may be addressed in Bloom et al, or maybe in an earlier paper by Jones. I vaguely recall that it doesn’t make a difference whether you analyze things in terms of the subdomains or the economy at large, but I don’t have the exact reference at hand.
Thank you for this thought-provoking post! Maybe ‘WTF happened in 1971’ should be renamed to ‘WTF happened in 1973’? Energy scarcity being at the root of the long term trends in productivity and prosperity seems like a more plausible explanation than the Nixon shock.
Long term abundance is a great future to look forward to. What has me more concerned is the inertia of the climate system (committed warming, feedbacks) and the turbulence it’s going to cause in the next decades. It seems like a race to deploy enough solar to allow people to adapt to extreme weather (air conditioners for wet bulb heat waves, fresh water for droughts etc.).
“~sixth … industrial revolution”—please Casey, you’re killing me
Excellent analysis, good to see optimism about the future (the pessimist in me is saying but what about AI☹️).
AI is still economically-bound computation (e.g. https://twitter.com/clementdelangue/status/1711732659443863978) The smaller model(s) + deterministic glue + more expressive HITL paradigm is just going keep percolating for a while, clearly we haven’t hit the frontier with those resource constraints and data technique is the most competitive element respective to those constraints (e.g. https://huggingface.co/HuggingFaceH4/zephyr-7b-alpha ).
On the other hand, a lot of markets maintain a equilibrium due to their capture, so any hypothetical gain in competitive/selective pressure can have downstream externalities. For example, the competitive advantage in art, according to the consumer choices now, was more about the lower price than the prestige. Who knows what implication this has for “the creator economy”, and who knows how the larger advertisement sector handles this potential disintermediation. This may also by exacerbated by the macroeconomic pressure to favor bond yield over equities (though this isn’t my wheelhouse).
Generative AI is clearly not a mature market by any stretch of the imagination. One concrete point is the churn rate of Generative AI platforms. The more abstract point that mirrors this is the “there is no moat” memo. We’ve seen the “stablediffusion moment” for chat & text2image (which has progressed into free markets for LoRAs), but we arguably haven’t realized this for robotics transformers like RT-2-X.
one analysis that I find valuable is the “$200 billion question” (https://www.sequoiacap.com/article/follow-the-gpus-perspective/)
another hypothetical in the air is what consumers do with the client-server business model when their content does not necessarily originate from those services anymore. again, way too early to tell when most browsers & operating systems are still trying to ship generative AI as a cloud-based feature (for now).
Otherwise, there’s just dealing with the loud minority of “AI doom” which is “suppositionally valid conjecture that’s practically unsound”. but that’s my opinionated take informed by first principles like the Kerckhoff principle & the 90′s lore of PGP, so take this with a grain of cypherpunk salt.
I have yet to see a good case against AI doom.
I like this perspective in the reality of atoms, but I’d like to offer a cofactor that also compounds with this.
Electrical power is never freed from thermodynamic constraints. In simple terms, it would be obtuse to maximize the transmission of electrical power, because that inherently maximizes waste heat & associated destructive risk. Fundamentally, our environment favors transmission of signal upon local consumption of power, usually digital bits above a minimum SNR. This is not a single paradigm, because our economy has been growing considerably in the scope of financially valuable bits, typically with a growing capacity for risk instruments.
I’d like to extend this a little further. So average joules per capita might scale up tremendously, maybe it’s shunted to larger FLOPs (operating bits) per capita, and coincidentally there’s more accurately implied risk per capita. I’m willing to assert that there’s a happy providence where radical energy abundance is complemented by a radical, elastic demand for accelerating production of novel signals. In other words, we’re not just sticking with a static manufacturing base that can brute force upon energy abundance, perhaps it is also capable of diversifying & optimizing for energy-efficient exploration of undeveloped frontiers. Moreover, because the footprint for novel concepts like autonomous agency fall under the threshold of consumer electronics, there may even be an imminent paradigm where monetary velocity upon energy abundance leads to much more extensive conversion of joules to financial surplus, therefore much more extensive capacity for debt. Which is critical when communities need the capex for resources like freshwater-producing facilities.
As to the Kardashev challenge, I think we need to consider that solar technology has been optimized for wattage/mass (though I’m sure this oversimplifying some nuance). Since we can only really grow outwards, beyond land-bound real estate, I’d contend that radical energy abundance relies in part on optimized upmass. Not only is this necessary, but there has been a decades-old, thoroughly-planned dream to maximally collect the necessary commodities in microgravity and continue scaling up en situ. We might only attain 1.0 on the Kardashev Scale by endeavoring to construct the precursors to attaining 2.0. This bridge isn’t going to be crossed in our lifetimes, but it’s fascinating to me, at least, that there may be an acceleration stack:
more joules → more FlOPs → more financial agency → more serviceable debt → more terrestrial capex → more demand for extraterrestrial ISRU → more indication that we can thrive & moderate environmental downsides
this definitely doesn’t touch upon the nuances of manufacturing, societal displacement, and perhaps other black swans. yet I think this could be a by-the-numbers providence that further vindicates a sense of optimism, and perhaps a more focused purpose for the human condition beyond Malthusianism, beyond noisy zero-sum subcultural bloodsport.
then again, this is just my overly optimistic take.
What about land cost for solar? At what point does that become a significant part of energy cost? Solar is less diffuse than wind but more diffuse than any fuel-based energy technology.
If it’s not significant now, surely at some point on our way to becoming a Kardashev Type 1 civilization it becomes a problem?
Right now land costs are on the order of $1k-$2k/acre/yr (1 acre ~ 4000m2, but I find it a convenient metric because an average acre receives an average of just over 4MW of sunlight if you spread it across the full 8760 hours in a year, which gives an average of ~1MW output at current efficiencies if you had 100% panel coverage). and with current efficiencies in typical regions that’s something like 2000-8000 MWh/yr depending on local weather and panel layout, so <$1/MWh. If we move towards tandem or other multijunction cells (which seems plausible in the 2030s) that power density could double. In addition there are some slower trends that should start to support things like agrivoltaics (dual use of land without decreasing crop yields) and comparably cheap or cheaper non-silicon semitransparent panels (which can actually be used in greenhouses or over crops, selectively absorbing wavelengths plants can’t use while providing shade to reduce water consumption).
In other words, there are lots of options to address this. World electricity consumption would have to increase by at least 3 orders of magnitude before land use even started to become a consideration.
I do think the OP is overestimating the rate at which energy storage and synthetic fuel costs will fall, and that that is a bigger consideration than land use. I also think resistance to early retirement of existing assets will slow down the later stages of the move away from fossil fuels, both in electricity generation and in transportation fuels. But I doubt that shifts the overall timeline by more than 5-10 yrs.
Solar panels are more economically productive than any unused land, forestry, or agriculture, and even some land uses in built up areas, such as car parking. What this means is that deploying solar upgrades utility.
There is a question whether there is enough land. The short answer is yes, easily, it’s not even close. Something like 4-5% of Earth’s land surface with solar can provide enough energy for 10 billion people to live at current US levels of energy consumption, and more than 35% of Earth’s land surface is essentially uninhabited deserts, mountains, swamps, forests, etc.
The longer answer is that we can provide the food needs of our civilization with about 20% of Earth’s land surface area under more-or-less intense cultivation, our civilization consumes roughly 100x more energy in the form of electricity, oil and gas, than food, and solar energy is about 1000x more productive, per unit area, than plants.
Strictly speaking, Kardashev Level 1 would require the entire surface, land and water, of Earth to be paved with solar. This is not particularly desirable nor necessary, in my opinion!
Strictly speaking, Kardashev level 1 requires control over a whole planet’s energy budget such that we are capable of using it. It says nothing about what we do with it. “Choose to not use it and leave some spaces wild, when we could easily choose otherwise” seems like a perfectly valid way to meet that criterion (that we don’t yet meet).
Surely, long before we pave over the earth, we will have expanded into space for energy, farming and minerals, and probably living as well.
Does anyone have a good essay about federalism—particularly the history of the US and how we have divided power between the federal governments and the states?
Despite this rather glowing summary, and support by economists from Milton Friedman to Paul Krugman, land taxes are rare. The Economist explains:
Some jurisdictions have managed to implement land value taxes. Denmark and Estonia have a form of the tax, and a handful of municipalities in Pennsylvania (Allentown, Harrisburg, Altoona from 2009-2018ish and Pittsburgh from 1911-2000) have experimented with it or its cousin split-rate taxation. Split-rate taxation taxes both land and structures like a traditional property tax, though it taxes land at a higher rate (often 5:1) than structures.
Thank you so much, this is very helpful!
I’m still researching various income streams for governments and I’m wondering: will income tax be the best way to tax in the future? (I’m thinking about remote work and how we might be taxed in one location but living in another one). Or are there governments who are pulling tax revenue from other unique places? Are there any good books or essays about unique tax structures that have worked well/make sense?
You will hear a lot about Georgism which advocates a tax on the (unimproved) value of land. This might be a starting point: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-progress-and-poverty
Thank you!
Hi Evan,
Very interesting piece and I think San Francisco isn’t alone in the need for some form of greater regional governance. My mind immediately jumps to all the regional planning bodies throughout the U.S., like CMAP (Chicago Metropolitan Agency for Planning) in Illinois, which covers an area vastly greater than the City of Chicago but whose powers are purely advisory. From what I understand, they put out excellent regional plans full of great TOD and YIMBY proposals. Yet it’s ultimately the Aldermen of Chicago who exert a kind of feudal authority over every little land-use decision in their patches of turf. With a playing field like this, it’s no wonder NIMBYs dominate (or why Aldermen keep going to jail, for that matter). Consolidating land-use authority in a regional body certainly would tilt the balance of power towards pro-housing forces.
But the transit issue is where I think your case is strongest and most generalizable. I live in DC, where our regional metro system WMATA is chronically under-funded and terrified of making long-term investments needed to ensure the decent and reliable service a metro area of our size deserves. WMATA has to go hat-in-hand to Maryland and Virginia soliciting voluntary contributions for a system that reaches very deeply into both states. The share of operating costs recovered by fares is pretty low, but I don’t think it’s totally out of the ordinary for U.S. transit systems. DC residents end up bearing a much greater cost for what is a truly regional system. But we simply can’t compel Maryland and Virginia to pay their fare share. It sounds like BART has the same issue? We could use some regional bodies with actual taxing authority whose jurisdictions actually align with the reach of our infrastructure needs. Maybe “save our metro” is a useful political rallying cry for this.
Are there any examples of cities around the world you’ve seen that do this particularly well? Greater London, essentially coterminous with the Tube, comes to mind. But I’d love to do some research on further case studies, perhaps for one of my ROP BBI pieces.
Funny enough, Chicago didn’t have a dramatic consolidation, but it is the result of a lot of annexation. During the failed 1912 SF consolidation, Chicago was also held up as an example of a successful consolidation. Toronto consolidated in the 1990s. So it can still happen.
Transit is challenging. As I talk about in the piece, I don’t think that every consolidation makes sense. You can’t say “it’s all integrated” or “there’s regional rail, so become one city!” and free-riding is a timeless problem. SF is is somewhat unique at this point in time in how uniquely it’s connected without being merged. Maybe LA comes close.
I think the issue with the taxing authority for a supra-authority is you run into issues of authority. I think school boards are somewhat like this, where they are funded by real taxes and people vote on their representation, and they take it really seriously, but it isn’t quite a municipality. County elections are like this too for things like sheriffs.
Wow, Evan—what an amazing essay this is! As a former SF resident I had not mental picture of 101 municipalities but of course am very aware of the challenges. The New York analogy is great and super helpful.
The solution makes total sense—and yet it’s also clear that inertia and self-interest of bureaucrats and local politicians will work against it. What do you think will it take to get an advocate (or a group of advocates) like Green in NYC to get this going? (I guess getting your essay as much readership as possible with SF people is a good first step!)
I think awareness this is an option is an important part. It’s also a multi-step process where I think you can have multiple parts. Maybe consolidate the police department and the many transit agencies. Perhaps some of the smaller towns into some of the bigger cities.
The most important part is just that the conditions need to already exist. There’s already a cultural connection and integrated economy. The legal conditions are already there. Now we just need to build political will over a decade+ with an organized, if quiet, movement with small steps over time.
US tax policy changed during the WWI era. It was all quite local until 1917. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/historical-income-tax-rates-brackets/ Also, you’ll notice that even at the state level, income tax was rare. Income tax has historically been ill-regarded. Until 1905 most of the state of New York was funded through alcohol taxes: https://www.jstor.org/stable/1882558 They then passed a mortgage tax and a stock tax to counter the rising costs of a growing population.
Every government level has the power to tax in the US, and they all find very different ways to do it.
Thank you so much!
Who is your target market? For an adult to take nearly a year out of their life is a big ask. For whom do you expect it will be worth it? Staff/campaigners at existing non-profits? Existing bloggers/youtubers etc on related subjects? Anyone else? How large is the potential pool of students and how will you reach them and convince them that the course is worth the time and money?
I realise this is not a commercial project, but I think you would benefit from some start-up like thinking: who is this product for, what is the market, how do you reach customers, what is a minimum viable product from which to iterate? Apologies if you have already done that, but it wasn’t communicated in your post.
Thanks for the note! I answer your questions below. One overall comment: this is an expansion of a project/school that’s already successful and profitable, with a proven model and product. I’ve already taught 100 students, with demand far beyond what I can currently supply.
“Who is your target market?” City and state employees, and several markets in the general population, with immediate focus on tech, law, and finance professionals. I am not asking them to take a year out of their lives; all of my classes are meant to be taken with a regular job and busy life.
“For whom do you expect it will be worth it?” I’ve taught over 100 students already, and ~all of them would say it’s been worth it. It’s exciting to learn what the government actually is from a charismatic teacher, even if you don’t go on to be super active politically! (Although many do go on to be active politically, empowered by their new knowledge.)
“How large is the potential pool of students and how will you reach them...” I think the pool is at least 10,000 people throughout NYC, but probably far more. I’ll reach them the way I’ve already been reaching them with my established classes, via Twitter, my newsletter, and word of mouth. Demand already vastly outstrips my ability to teach my current classes, which is why I’m focusing on expanding and training more teachers.
“I think you would benefit from some start-up like thinking.” Agree, and already done. Maximum New York (and me) have been sustained principally from revenue/profit since I started in March 2022.
I think it would add a lot of value to this post to emphasize that this is already something that’s being implemented / you already have the infrastructure for. Like Dumbledore’s Army, I would have a lot of skepticism towards this if it wasn’t clear that this was already being put into practice / the way was already paved. My first thought was to comment on practicalities and purpose. Since it’s already in practice or on the way to being there, knowing that fact would allow people like me to move on and give comments that are more relevant to the project in its current state.
Ok, sorry for the misplaced advice. Good luck with the school!
I don’t think there would be broad agreement within the progress community about the Singer argument, or more generally about utilitarianism.
Personally, I am neither a utilitarian nor an altruist, and I don’t agree with the drowning child argument as I understand it.
I think how much to spend on yourself vs. charity or other causes that you believe in is a personal decision, based on what is meaningful and important to you.
I am curious what you think about it. Do you have any refutation of the argument? Is the opinion one your willing to share?
Hmm, I honestly don’t know whether progress studies can be applied to any random job or company. I think of it more about applying at a society-wide level. Of course, it might inspire some people to take jobs at more ambitious / cutting-edge companies (or start such companies!) But that also doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with companies that aren’t cutting-edge—it takes all kinds of companies to make a functioning economy.
If anything, maybe progress studies can help remind you all of the moral value of economic growth. To the extent you all do you job well, and create economic value, and produce an honest profit—you are contributing to the well-being of the world. That makes it worth taking pride in a job well done. Trite but true.
Tribal-based SEZs could be the perfect place for people to sell normally Rx-based drugs OTC.
(Canada is way more liberal wrt respecting tribal sovereignty than America—the courts in Canada consistently rule in favor of tribal reservations and the RMCP in British Columbia has encountered public outrage when it tried to do enforcement before, which has nudged it towards non-enforcement of some actions where tribal actions had a conflict with the province). Canada also allows tribes to “buy up more land”, which is way easier in Canada than the states. Canadians in general are more left-wing than Americans and are more likely to believe that tribes really should have their own sovereignty outside of federal jurisdiction (and it’s interesting that the Canadian police just don’t enforce certain laws—which is why there are now so many psychedelic mushroom stores in BC....)
Look up Tetla economy from one of the Cowichan Tribes.. (https://members.viatec.ca/news/Details/the-launch-of-an-indigenous-cryptocurrency-is-near-142419)
https://champions.substack.com/p/the-coast-salish-blockchain-stock
For example, there is someone who is working on setting up an financial exchange on a BC tribal land.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/i-5/FullText.html
====
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/08/12/how-tribal-nations-are-reclaiming-oklahoma [tesla also is managing to sell cars in a NY reservation to circumvent restrictive NYC laws about selling cars]
On reservation land, there is already massive distrust of the “process of modern medicine” (including doctors), which prevents many people from getting the care they need. Diabetes rates (and “addiction rates”) on reservations are ultra-high (one Oglala reservation featured by Peter Santenello [he showcases the differences between Indian reservations on his YouTube videos] had dialysis centers). If diabetes medication [eg empagliflozin, sotagliflozin, metformin, rapamycin, semaglutide]+statins+[potentially revolutionary treatments to addiction, which could include some native-based psychedelic plants] could be made OTC (OTC means trusting the customer, it means being pro-choice), it could do a lot to prevent health problems from turning into health disasters, especially on tribal lands. And since there is also substantial demand for these medications OTC among the ordinary population, it could serve as a huge source of taxable income, kind of like the casinos.
[native reservations, esp in South America, seem to have some ability to give people psychedelic plant therapies—there could be a way to rework experimental “right to try” bio-therapies into the legends/prophecies of some native american tribe]
It’s already possible to get many of these Rx-based drugs OTC in Latin America (and perhaps from India/Turkey through the grey market) [Latin America has its own unique issues with high diabetes rates], but then one has to deal with inconvenient flights [or travel costs]/customs/etc, which massively reduces their convenience.
Similarly, they can be places where people base experimental medical treatments like exosomes or stem cell treatments (where it’s a massive hassle to offer them in the US due to regulation, and where it’s possible to get them in Latin America). Eg https://garmclinic.com/ (which is in Honduras, and thus tough to get to for most Americans). Any form of non-mainstream medication innovation (that the FDA holds back!) would have a strong argument for being more-than-welcome on tribal land
I’ve visited Roatan before, and the amount of land needed to set up these jurisdictions is quite small. If Minicircle could be offered on tribal land rather than Latin America. Of course, one would have to do due justice to issues that Native Americans face, but bypassing the untrustworthy “white man/FDA” medical system is, I think, enough of a good reason.
[OTC removes many barriers that indigeneous/poor populations face when getting the medication they need, especially preventatively.]
Upon looking further: https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/cpg-sec-100350-fda-jurisdiction-indian-reservations might be an obstacle.. (it might not be impossible to change this in the name of generally increasing tribal soverignty...)
https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2013/09/not-ready-fsma-and-fdas-proposed-safety-rules-disregard-sovereignty-and-federal-case-law/
LINKDUMP
https://latecomermag.com/article/what-happened-to-molecular-manufacturing/
https://www.leversforprogress.com/
forum.quantifiedself.com
SOME RANDOM LINKS:
https://logancollinsblog.com/2023/08/31/logans-catalog-of-useful-resources-for-creating-the-future/
https://curius.app/alex-k-chen
https://nanoscale.blogspot.com/
https://blog.spec.tech/p/speculative-technologies-2023-year
SOME interesting people:
orthogonal to the popular ML/DL/AI people [or orthogonal to “scaling is all you need” people]
https://hillelwayne.com/post/ [he’s also in the jkoppel/predrag circuit]
[also I listed some on LW]
https://github.com/VictorTaelin
https://gist.github.com/VictorTaelin/9061306220929f04e7e6980f23ade615
https://higherorderco.com/
more in the PC of popular ML/DL/AI/”scaling is all you need” people
https://www.yitay.net/blog/2022-best-nlp-papers
https://bzolang.blog/p/the-lattice-topology-correspondence?utm_source=substack&utm_campaign=post_embed&utm_medium=web
impt progress studies links
https://twitter.com/nc_znc/status/1768332511073980474
https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2024/03/14/ai-55-keep-clauding-along/#more-23740
https://worldmodels.github.io/
https://titotal.substack.com/p/bandgaps-brains-and-bioweapons-the
important links (this is really the best place for me to post/update them rn)
https://perlara.substack.com/p/low-dose-statin-as-a-potential-treatment
https://ucatapp.notion.site/uCat-Transcend-the-Limits-of-Body-Time-and-Space-e8fc2d280f844692b957214f22663721#a31a28f53dec437393335748bc60a721
https://taylorpearson.me/ergodicity/
https://cen.acs.org/materials/2-d-materials/Mighty-MXenes-ready-launch/102/i9?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR24Mz0Da5pN1JvMS-D4yrdAzs33HxsHorqOUqGiPZwTYCvdGSuYTfNFJ78_aem_ASNMecqGLtqIPvtZ-rz2mDb9TEFa-MwAOCmTs5naQ2icnni88hXJR5yAOZlN_gqSn8evHiU6QWH8hJrNt7GsU-8W
https://www.wired.com/story/fast-forward-chatgpt-hunger-energy-gpu-revolution/
sid mani
Tunadorable
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg26234870-200-the-man-reinventing-economics-with-chaos-theory-and-complexity-science/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0Qp9R1Wn7iMwnvguVYLVrXfQesEdm4_gi8VZjU56xQwElVjKSQ9lmhx9s_aem_ASNm3CMqD9owMvrbpo2zQM4nxlGrfH2mFE1OQxO6ldXUc9UOxtM-pue91H3Qtl5BaxalsNP8sFnX82dRnEzWi_Ap
Adam Green of markov.bio
LLM content
https://api.together.xyz/playground/chat/meta-llama/Llama-2-70b-chat-hf
310.ai
https://cen.acs.org/materials/2-d-materials/Mighty-MXenes-ready-launch/102/i9
Novelties
websim.ai
These are interesting questions, but, in my opinion, on the periphery of what “Progress Studies” is. Progress Studies generally pre-supposes that industrial, scientific, and economic development are good things. Most discussion seems to focus on better understanding how and why these things come about. At least, that’s what attracted me to this forum—somewhere where people nerd out over why the steam engine was developed where and when it was, how we can accelerate the pace of technological development, and how we can achieve more of these “good” things in the future by studying the past.
To determine whether or not this should be considered progress is, in my view, more likely to be satisfyingly answered by the field of Philosophy. There are centuries of writing that will delve far deeper into this, and have far more satisfying answers, than what’s generally discussed here—and the general supposition that, say, the Apollo mission or mRNA vaccines were capital-P Progress.
I think this is actually a good example of the point I’m trying to make. The Philosopher would study both arguments and try to understand what each would say about the Good, and make a determination about what this says about the human condition or what progress should be. Your median Progress Studies enthusiast likely starts off pretty firmly on team Space Colony—and, if they’re being honest, is mostly interested in this question as a means for understanding how we could encourage more of team degrowth to switch sides.
To be clear, I don’t mean this in a negative sense toward either Progress Studies or Philosophy. Both questions are interesting and worthy of discussion. Seeking knowledge and understanding is an inherent good! But it’s also nice to have a space to talk about steam engines or designing effective industrial policy, without getting into the Philosophical weeds each time.
Thanks for your reply! I appreciate the thought.
Consider this: What’s development? What subset of industrial, scientific, and economic labor count as development (versus business as usual)? Surely not everything—many things are dead-ends. Many developments, even ones that were temporarily widely used, turned out not to be worth the risk (see: thalidomide). Other developments are deemed, by some, not worth the risk, and well worth it by others (see: nuclear energy). On yet more, the jury is still out on whether the risk will have been worth it (like plastic). What makes any one thing a development? Progress Studies will at least need to agree on what is and is not development—if it can’t, how does it know what’s worth studying?
Now, say we managed to come up with some criteria for what counts as “progress.” Perhaps it’s some mix of the technology’s diffusion, or its ability to ‘unlock’ certain other technologies, discounted against its externalities. Now, if we had those criteria, we’d have to justify them: why are these the important things? To answer those questions, I reckon we’d find ourselves right back at the questions I asked in my original post.
If this is all philosophy: fine. But can Progress Studies really work independently of these questions? I understand if they get offloaded to philosophers. (I’ll do it; I’m a willing volunteer). But can Progress Studies afford to be agnostic about them? I’m trying to nudge at those points where philosophy may be subtly required to do the thing Progress Studies needs to do. Points where ideas about what progress is haven’t been questioned as finely as they might be, and where some additional question-asking in those areas may substantially strengthen Progress Studies’ analytical purchase—deciding what is Progress and why, then understanding what features allowed that progress to happen.
Update: I’m already planning to give brief remarks at a few events coming up very soon:
Thurs, Aug 24: Recur Club founders meetup in Indiranagar. Register/apply here
Sun, Aug 27: LessWrong / Astral Codex Ten meetup at Matteo Coffea
If you’re in/near Bangalore, hope to see you there!
This post is fantastic. Also, the last 8 months have been an eternity for LLMs. Have you been tinkering with any of the new ones since this experiment, and if so how’d they do?
Thanks for sharing the “the unreasonable effectiveness of insurance” books and pieces about fire safety. This is also a theme that fascinates me, and while I was working in reinsurance modeling for cybersecurity I became fascinated with the history of steam boilers. This technological innovation is a great case study for progress that creates problems that requires more progress to solve.
The Hartford Steam Boiler Inspection and Insurance Company (now a part of MunichRe) was created to address this problem and the blog post below describes why the sinking of the Sultana steam ship in 1865 was a critical turning point: https://blog.hsb.com/2015/03/30/sultana/
I believe this precedent setting case predates the UL by about 30 years and well before the commercialization of electricity (besides nascent telegraph systems). Prior to the HSB Inspection and Insurance Company, insurance was limited to covering mostly natural causes of marine/storm (ancient) and property/fire (Stuart Era) losses. There was risk of piracy, so some of the losses were man-made, but prior to the Industrial Revolution technological risk was solved by lack of progress.
Fascinating, thanks for the pointer!
Experimental results from getting a 3yo interested in technology:
1. I bought her a little broom, which she liked, and then showed her that our robot vacuum could do the same work automatically, After a year she’s still not totally comfortable with the sound, and gets scared when it’s going towards her. Best decision we made was getting a model that did /not/ have a mobile app, instead using a remote control (I believe it was this model: https://us.eufy.com/products/t2108124?ref=navimenu_2_2_4_1_img). She has learned to walk over to the shelf, find the button which makes it return home, and carefully watch it until it docks. I stress that, even when it feels scary to her, she’s always in control because she can find the remote.
2. Assembled a LEGO-like robot dog after she got excited seeing one on YouTube, but again it was too loud for her, and she gets very skittish when a device is moving towards her.
3. She enjoys asking questions to Bing Chat. I hold up my phone and turn on Siri dication, which she’s learned to recognize. She asks her question and I use the keyboard to clean up the text, then submit. I read her the output. She mostly asks under-specified questions about plot points in her favorite books, but doesn’t mind that the answers are basically a re-hash of a given character’s Wikipedia page. She’s never gotten interested in image generation, contra my expectations, mostly DALL-E can’t do specific characters (I haven’t tried the others).
This book is “for babies” but it’s probably just about right for a 3yo. It is the best “STEM for babies” book I have ever seen, maybe the only one I really like: https://computerengineeringforbabies.com/
I don’t know exactly how seriously to take it—but I know Michael Dearing, whose site that is, and he is 100% in favor of capitalism, so… at least partially serious?
It seems a bit ahistorical to suggest that “Rome” could have industrialized by “skipping the Dark Ages” for a couple of reasons.
The list of things the Romans didn’t have is almost entirely composed of “Dark Age” inventions.
And, although the city of Rome fell, the imperial capital had already moved to Constantinople. The Roman empire continued to develop new technology for many centuries. (Although for peculiar historical reasons we start calling the Roman empire “Byzantium” at that point.)
Consider reading “Cathedral, Forge, and Waterwheel” by Frances Gies and Joseph Gies for a more realistic view of progress in the period after the Roman empire moved its capital to Constantinople.
What a great article! I think it’s so important to have specific historical examples of how technology impacted jobs, vs. speculating in a vacuum. Your emphasis on culture and dynamism is especially on point:
”For coal miners, for example, this would mean job training programs[23] that widen the aperture of cultural pride from providing coal to providing energy, even in the energy forms that will win the future. It also means reusing physical infrastructure when possible, such as the recent Berkshire Hathaway effort to convert a West Virginia coal plant into a nuclear power plant.[”
Focusing on the upside or “widening the aperture” of work people consider will matter a lot, as will just being open to change (vs. using regulation to stop it before we even fully understand it).
This also reminded me of a study that analyzed the impact of AI on taxi drivers. The key finding was that AI helped less experienced/less skilled drivers be more productive—rather than replacing drivers wholesale: ”. We find that AI improves drivers’ productivity by shortening the cruising time, and such gain is accrued only to low-skilled drivers, narrowing the productivity gap between high- and low-skilled drivers by 14%. The result indicates that AI’s impact on human labor is more nuanced and complex than a job displacement story, which was the primary focus of existing studies.”
https://docs.iza.org/dp15677.pdf
Thanks for sharing this article here.
I realize I’m a little late to ask this, but have you thought about how to license the resulting works? There is significant long-term value in putting them under a free license (such as CC BY-SA 4) as it enables further proliferation and reuse by others who want to provide information about those inventions; but the contract with the artist might need to specify that it allows for that kind of reuse.
Thanks Gergő. We’re doing this as a “work made for hire” meaning that the rights belong to us and we can then license it however we want.
So hyped for this! If anyone has reading suggestions, please let us know!
Can we enhance medical devices to the point where an MRI is as easy and cheap to use and own as a thermometer?
Very fun piece. It might be interesting to take a longer view. I’m under the impression that pre 10k BC, with small populations and limited “researchers,” technologies were occasionally lost. Famously, the ability to make fire and to fish might have been lost in Tasmania. So is it a (the?) core fact of civilization that we are able to accumulate technology while losing essentially none of it.
Thanks! I think your view of small prehistoric groups is correct, although I learned while researching this post that the loss of fire in Tasmania is probably false (or at least controversial). However, the aboriginal Tasmanians do seem to have lost various other hunting and fishing technologies.
Focus will be on the actual arguments in section on optimization pressure, since that seems to be the true objection here—previous sections seem to be rhetoric and background, mostly accepting the theoretical basis for the discussion.
I take it this essay presumes that the pure version of the argument is true—if you were so foolish as to tell a sufficiently capable AGI ‘calculate as many digits of Pi as possible’ with no mitigations in place, and it has the option to take over the world to do the calculation faster, it’s going to do that.
However I interpret you as saying in practice, that wouldn’t happen, because practical considerations and countermeasures? Is that right?
I take the quoted sections here to be the core arguments:
The implication here is that there are reasons not to do power seeking or too much verification—it’s dangerous, it’s expensive and it’s complicated. To overcome the optimization pressures acting against doing that, you’d need to exert even more powerful pressure to do it, which wouldn’t be present if you had a truly bounded goal that already had e.g. p~0.99 of happening if you didn’t do that. Because the risk of disruption, or the cost in resources, exceeds the gain from power seeking.
Let’s consider the verification question first. If you give me affordances, and then reward me based purely on a certain outcome, we agree I’ll use those affordances as best I can even if the gains are minimal. A common version of this is someone going over their SAT answers for the sixth time, because the stakes are so high, so might as well use all the time given to you. There are always students who will use every second you give them, they’d fall asleep at their desk if you let them then wake up and keep trying.
The question is, why in practice wouldn’t you stop at a reasonable point given the cost? That ‘reasonable’ is based on the affordances given, and what terms you effectively built into the reward function. Sure, if you put in a cost term, at some point it stops verifying, but you have to put in the cost term, or it will keep verifying. If you didn’t say exactly 32 paperclips or make it deliver you exactly the 32, it will make 32,000 paperclips instead because that is a good way to ensure you made 32 good ones, etc.
Thus your defense is to start with a bounded goal ‘make 32 paperclips’ or ‘fetch me the coffee.’ Then you put in penalty terms—asymmetrical ones I hope! - for things like costs and impacts. That could work.
You still have to worry that there will be a ‘way around’ those restrictions. For example, if there’s a way to make money that can then be spent, or otherwise gain power or capabilities in a net profitable way, and this is allowed without penalty, suddenly there’s a reason to go maximalist again, and why not? It’s certainly what I would do. Or if sufficient power lets it change the rules around its reward, of course. Or if there’s a way to specification game that you didn’t anticipate. Again, what I would look to do.
It is not trivial to specify exactly what you want here, but yes it is possible to prevent IC this way in a given case. The problem is, as the affordances and capabilities of the system increase, the attractiveness of these alternative strategies and its ability to find them increases, and your attempts to block them become more likely to fail—not that it’s impossible in theory to solve the issue in any given case.
The other problem is that if some people solve this problem, while others do not, some systems will seek power and others will not seek power, which does not solve our collective problem at all. The systems that don’t seek power quickly become irrelevant. And this is a strong argument, from the perspective of such a system and for its owner, for seeking power. If you intend to kill me to ensure you can fetch your boss’ coffee, then I cannot sit on my hands and be a humble assistant, or I will fail.
With fully maximalist goals you are in much deeper trouble, and often people give AIs maximalist goals—the most clicks or engagement, the most profits or paperclips, and so on. Then what do you actually want to happen?
Often the best way to do something really will be to seek power, or humans do choose this on reflection.
(E.g. IRL: Oil companies overthrow governments, people fight world wars in order to ensure their freedom on their farm or to implement their favorite distribution of resources, people engage in grand conspiracies or globe-spanning decades-long epic quests to win someone’s heart, wreck entire industries in order to protect a handful of jobs, work every day their entire lives to earn more money without ever having a plan to spend it, etc)
Most people spend most of their time pursuing instrumental goals—power, money, knowledge, skills, influence and so on. If you tell a system to ‘make the most money’ as many people will, what happens? It’s not that easy to put in sufficient correction terms, and when you do, you really do hurt the capabilities of the system to achieve the goals specified.
(Happy to do a call, I deleted like 3 attempts on this, and higher bandwidth / feedback likely helps here)
Thanks a lot, Zvi.
Meta-level: I think to have a coherent discussion, it is important to be clear about which levels of safety we are talking about.
Right now I am mostly focused on the question of: is it even possible for a trained professional to use AI safely, if they are prudent and reasonably careful and follow best practices?
I am less focused, for now, on questions like: How dangerous would it be if we open-sourced all models and weights and just let anyone in the world do anything they wanted with the raw engine? Or: what could a terrorist group do with access to this? And I am not right now taking a strong stance on these questions.
And the reason for this focus is:
The most profound arguments for doom claim that literally no one on Earth can use AI safely, with our current understanding of it.
Right now there is a vocal “decelerationist” group saying that we should slow, pause, or halt AI development. I think this argument mostly rests on the most extreme and IMO least tenable versions of the doom argument.
With that context:
We might agree, at the extreme ends of the spectrum, that:
If a trained professional is very cautious and sets up all of the right goals, incentives and counter-incentives in a carefully balanced way, the AI probably won’t take over the world
If a reckless fool puts extreme optimization pressure on a superintelligent situationally-aware agent with no moral or practical constraints, then very bad things might happen
I feel like we are still at different points in the middle of that spectrum, though. You seem to think that the balancing of incentives has to be pretty careful, because some pretty serious power-seeking is the default outcome. My intuition is something like: problematic power-seeking is possible but not expected under most normal/reasonable scenarios.
I have a hunch that the crux has something to do with our view of the fundamental nature of these agents.
… I accidentally posted this without finishing it, but honestly I need to do more thinking to be able to articulate this crux.
I think it’s an important crux of its own which level of such safety is necessary or sufficient to expect good outcomes. What is the default style of situation and use case? What can we reasonably hope to prevent happening at all? Do our ‘trained professionals’ actually know what they have to do, especially without being able to cheaply make mistakes and iterate, if they do have solutions available? Reality is often so much stupider than we expect.
Saying ‘it is possible to use a superintelligent system safely’ would, if true, be highly insufficient, unless you knew how to do that, were willing to make the likely very very large performance sacrifices necessary (pay the ‘alignment tax’) in the face of very strong pressures, and also ensure no one else did it differently, and that this state persists.
Other than decelerationists, I don’t see people proposing paths towards keeping access to such systems sufficiently narrow, or constraining competitive dynamics such that people with such systems have the affordance to pay large alignment taxes. If it is possible to use such systems safely, that safety won’t come cheap.
I do think you are right that we disagree about the nature of such systems.
Right now, I think we flat out have no idea how to make an AGI do what we’d like it to do, and if we managed to scale up a system to AGI-level using current methods, even the most cautious user would fail. I don’t think there is a ‘power-seeking’ localized thing that you can solve to get rid of this, either.
But yeah, as for the crux it’s hard for me to pinpoint someone’s alternative mindset on how these systems are going to work, that makes ‘use it safely’ a tractable thing to do.
Throwing a bunch of stuff out there I’ve encountered or considered, in the hopes some of it is useful.
I think you’re imagining maybe some form of… common sense? Satisficing rather than pure maximization? Risk aversion and model uncertainty and tail risk concerns causing the AI to avoid disruptive actions if not pushed in such directions? A hill climbing approach not naturally ‘finding’ solutions that require a lot of things to go right and that wouldn’t work without a threshold capabilities level (there’s a proof I don’t have a link to atm that gradient descent almost always will find the optimal solution rather than get stuck in a local optima but yeah this does seem weird)? That the AI will develop habits and heuristics the way humans do that will then guide its behavior and keep things in check? That it ‘won’t be a psychopath’ in some sense? That it will ‘figure it out we don’t want it to do these things’ and optimize for that instead of its explicit reward function, because that was the earlier best way to maximize its reward function?
I don’t put actual zero chance some of these things could happen, although in each case I can then point to what the ‘next man up’ problem is down the line if things go down that road...
Great article, i’ve been trying lower the technical bar to entry in creating and testing BCI pipelines with LSL enabled devices by creating my new python backage PyBCI (https://github.com/LMBooth/pybci). It’d be great to get feedback or input from like minded people looking to create similar technologies.
I would call it metascience, and I would include Convergent Research and Speculative Technologies. See also this Twitter thread.
There is no history that I know of, it’s almost too new for that. But here’s an article: “Inside the multibillion-dollar, Silicon Valley-backed effort to reimagine how the world funds (and conducts) science”
Thanks, this is useful! I know the Convergent folks but wasn’t aware of Speculative Technologies. The article looks interesting but is, unfortunately, paywalled/sign-up-walled.
See Jack Devanney’s blog, e.g.:
Market Based Regulation of Nuclear Power
Implementing Underwriter Certification of Nuclear Power
Cleaving the Gordian Knot
I don’t think most of these “next einstein” arguments prove what you think they do.
If you want to increase the chances of string theory breakthroughs, you want to find the sort of people that have a high chance of understanding string theory, and push them even further. If any genetic component is relatively modest, then it becomes mostly pick someone, and throw lots of resources at educating them. If genetics or randomness control a lot, but are easily observed, then it’s looking out for young maths prodigies and helping them.
Ensuring widely spread education is more about the people making lots of small ideas rather than the lone geniuses. It’s getting people from being peasant farmers to codemonkey programmers.
This feels like a failure at actually engaging with the views you are purporting to criticize. If someone believes AGI will likely kill every living being, exactly what benefits should they consider to ensure that the evaluation is balanced? That our last couple years will be marginally more comfortable? How should the solutionist approach look?
This essay was written not written for the doomers. It was written for the anti-doomers who are inclined to dismiss any concerns about AI safety at all.
I may write something later about where I agree/disagree with the doom argument and what I think we should actually do.
Also, as Marc Andreessen points out in his piece, AI can also increase safety (this point seems unaddressed in your essay): https://pmarca.substack.com/p/why-ai-will-save-the-world
Yes, certainly! But that point isn’t relevant to the point I’m making here. And emphasizing that point as a way of arguing against AI risk itself is one of the things I’m discouraging. It would be like responding to concerns about drug safety by saying “but drugs save lives!” Yes, of course they do, but that isn’t relevant to the question of whether drugs also pose risks, and what we should do about those risks.
Why would it not be relevant to the question? What’s the value of only looking at eliminating the potential risk?
Regulating a technology is not just about eliminating the risks of it but about reducing the risks to some extent while still enabling the upside. the upsides need to be clearly analyses and acknowledged.
Certainly. You need to look at both benefits and costs if you are talking about, for instance, what to do about a technology—whether to ban it, or limit it, or heavily regulate it, or fund it / accelerate it, etc.
But that was not the context of this piece. There was only one topic for this piece, which was that the proponents of AI (of which I am one!) should not dismiss or ignore potential risks. That was all.
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. Is it “safety is good”? That seems pretty obvious?
I think the problem is that some people think the state should regulate/interfere with how safe something can or should be. Related: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/anti-growth-safetyism
Not just “safety is good”, but: (1) safety is a part of progress, rather than something opposed to it and (2) optimists should confront risks and seek solutions, rather than downplaying or dismissing them.
Thanks Jason for the article, I think it’s a useful lens for looking at the past.
The idea of having the right economic conditions for progress and invention reminded me of what Bill Gates calls the “Green Premiums” for the changes we need to make to move away from higher emissions (I imagine others have made the point before). Gates’s argument is that we need to create the right environment to “prime” the world for investing and creating these more sustainable technologies, and it seems like a proactive way that one may try to recreate the an Industrial Revolution Britain. (Whether it would work or not is a different matter!)
What do you mean by elite universities in Germany? In the UK there’s a sharp difference between an elite university like Oxford and Cambridge and the rest that doesn’t exist in Germany.
Why just assert that this is true without providing any arguments about why you think it’s true?
Hi Christian—thanks for reading!
The point on elite universities is distinctly about how these epicenters have shifted over time, not a snapshot in time today. Germany was home to the world leading higher education institutions in the 19th century. One example, from mathematics—over the years the University of Göttingen was home to Gauss, Riemann, Hilbert, von Neumann, and others. The book cited, “Empires of Ideas”, gets into this evolution and global movement of modern universities.
On the point of talent being equally distributed, I think this is both self-evident and substantiated by many examples and the data. One example that is quite familiar is the proliferation of Indian immigrants now running the global technology companies. A empirical point is the paper we cite on IMO scores, which highlights the existence of talent and the subsequent limitations of opportunity: “an equally talented teenager with the same IMO score born in a low-income country produces 30% fewer publications and receives 50% fewer citations than a participant from a high-income country.”
Cross-national, large sample PISA tests, the most recent of which had >600,000 students, show considerable variation in mathematics, science, and reading scores. See these charts, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PISA_average_Mathematics_scores_2018.png, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PISA_average_Science_scores_2018.png, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PISA_average_Reading_scores_2018.png. A recent Progress in International Reading Literacy Study report shows similar variation, with 400,000 students. A simple GDP per capita model fails to predict scores in Qatar, UAE, or China. This and other such international tests all point against an equal distribution.
IMO scores don’t help either, they sample people from the edge of the distribution and may be more representative of “talent” (which PISA and PIRLS are not designed to show), and even still we see similar variation. Your quote of an “an equally talented teenager...” assumes the conclusion (comparing people of equal measured ability), as there are countries with 230m people which always get outscored by a large amount than countries with 5m people. An economic model again doesn’t predict UAE, or North Korea (which does very, very well, scoring one place behind South Korea in 2019 and 2015). Again pointing against an equal distribution.
It’s easy to disprove an equal distribution; however, it’s also very easy to disprove a distribution that closely fits opportunities (say, measured by economic development).
I’d also like to note that IMO performance is a strong but quite noisy signal of top talent distribution, due to some countries’ educational and career systems not particularly caring about it (France comes to mind); some countries kneecapping their performance on purpose (China doesn’t let anyone participate twice), and the cultural importance of high-school competitions varying between countries.
We see Asian American’s overrepresented in some metrics such SAT scores and see them overrepresented in tech employment. There overrepresentation is not a sign of equal distribution.
It could just be that Asian parents encourage their children to study in a way that builds specific talents that are useful for success at global technology companies.
The claim that talent is equally distributed means that talent is both independent from cultural upbringing and of genetics and not supported by finding a single demographic that does well at something.
When it comes to innovation it’s worth noting as well that having different talents as other people is useful for innovation.
The demand side of innovation has been highlighted many times in the past. As Liebenstein put it “The knowledge may have been there already and a change in circumstances induced the change in technique”. More generally the Boserup hypothesis sets out how agricultural innovation is driven by increasing population densities. Adam Smith made the same point in his discussion of agriculture in the American colonies. That these ideas not widely known, or just forgotten, reflects how much more attractive people find the silver bullet, hero-inventor story of innovation. And how much more useful those ideas are for politicians.
I think what Allen probably added was a more quantitative investigation of this idea. He gathered the price data for fuel, labor, capital, etc. and did the analysis of rates of profit and return on investment.
Not sure if this is quite what you are looking for, but I’ve been keeping a list of progress-related museums that I have visited or want to visit, large or small, including:
Antique Gas & Steam Engine Museum in Vista, CA
Charles River Museum of Industry and Innovation in Waltham, MA
Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI
Davistown Museum in Maine
Museum of Craft & Design in San Francisco
History of Science museum in Harvard (one room)
Jenner Museum, Gloucestershire; also a statue of Edward Jenner in Kensington Gardens?
Bibliotheque de la Faculte de Medecine in Paris, which houses The Jubilee of Louis Pasteur, by Jean-André Rixens
Fleming’s original Petri dish in the British Museum
Institute of Making, part of University College London
Wages are both about productivity and about how much value workers capture of their work. I asked GPT4 for the factors of why London grew in the 16th century and one of the reasons it comes up with is:
Monks at monasteries were a class of people that were very poorly paid. GPT4 describes the economic effects further as:
Please let me know how to delete my account and all comments and posts related to it. Much appreciated
One other factor, which I would class under demand factors: at each stage of the industrial revolution, you need to have enough demand for the primitive early version of your new technology, so that people will use it, iterate on it, and develop it.
You write “early Newcomen engines consumed ~45 pounds of coal per horsepower-hour; the most efficient engines of the late 1800s used less than one pound.” But to get to those efficient engines, it had to be worth someone’s while to use the very inefficient early Newcomen’s engines, so that there was a version 1 which could be iterated into the 1lb/hp-hour version.
Bret Devereaux has an argument that this was specific to Britain, whose geology happens to contain lots of coal mines which were prone to flooding. (I recommend reading the whole thing.) So the very first use of a steam engine was to pump water out of coal mines. Because the use case was literally at the coal mine, there were zero transport costs for the coal (a major consideration in an era before railroads and steamships). The very inefficient Newcomen engines still raised more coal than they burned, which would otherwise have been inaccessible, so there was an economic use for them. The UK by this point had already cleared most of its forests, so there was demand for coal (not necessarily true in earlier periods). And the higher wages in England, which you discuss, meant it was cheaper to pump the water with steam engine than with muscle power even where muscle power was technically practical. His argument is effectively that without all of these factors, the very inefficient early steam engines would not have been economic, so no one would have iterated on them.
I don’t think this is the only factor—you/Allen have gone through a lot of others, which also make sense. But I think it’s worth considering that part of the answer to ‘why did the Industrial Revolution start in England?’ is geological accident.
Thanks! Yes, this is definitely part of Allen’s argument (maybe I should make that more clear).
I’ve been meaning to read that Devereaux post/series for a while, thanks for reminding me of it.
However, I don’t you think can argue from “the Industrial Revolution got started in this very specific way” to “that is the only way any kind of an IR could ever have gotten started.” If it hadn’t been flooded coal mines in Britain, there would have been some other need for energy in some other application.
I see it more as: you develop mechanization and energy technology once you reach that frontier—once your economy hits the point where that is the best marginal investment in development. Britain was one of the most advanced economies, so it hit that frontier first.
Added a little bit in the revised version to try to clarify this. Thanks again for the feedback
typo: products or launched or other --> launches?
Was supposed to be “before products are launched”. Fixed, thanks
Nice post! Seems like a really important but unsexy thing to understand / improve regulation. It’s a shame to be limited not by technical problems but by misaligned orgs. It’s like stunted growth due to malnourishment
So true, Tony! Finding ways to creatively bring the study of human progress into schools is important, for so many reasons. It will be fun to work through the specifics on how we can make this happen—and to think specifically about how this teaching can inspire kids.
I would guess Alexander Hamilton (or other founding fathers). I assume you added the words AI in exchange for Britian.
I would wager Hayek, Huxley, or Orwell
No not forget their father, Zamyatin.
My first instinct is Frank Herbert. But that seems too obvious, and your note that you brought it up to date makes me think it might be earlier.
I have been following this for years, but the project does not progress very much (there are more machines, but the community has not grown). The village set would be both useful for civilization RE-construction and for civilization (First) construction in poor countries. In my first post in the EA Forum I tried to produce some interest either in this project or some susbtitute, because no other open source project could be more useful.
Related: The Long Now Foundation’s Manual for Civilization
See also Lewis Dartnell’s book The Knowledge.
Also related:
How Things Work Volumes, I to IV
by Roger Jean Segalat
On my opinion there are several adaptation-related factors which act differently in different times and circumstances. The newest most important now seems to be fear based on ignorance and, well, weak congintive abilities (50 years ago it was called stupidity...). COVID had demonstrated how quickly the mob requires and demands to stop, to shut down, to close and to lock everything and everywhere. Rational thinking was not applied. Mob is not 100% of population but it’s formed by it’s share large enough to push the states to act in certain direction. Discussion was not possible, the mob had to study the whole texbooks first. Social media, press news cycles (this is not an exlcusive list!) amplify fears, forecasts of soon imminent extinction and organise and agitate the mob. How the people will react to really fast changes like, say, automated finances system replacing accountants and whole finance departments everywhere? Film “Interstellar” gives a good picture how it may happen (“We were never in space and we definitely do not talk with children aboit things that sinful”). Such factor sure always existed but now it’s qualitatively stronger. At times and situations it may amd probably will reverse, well, at least local progresses in certain fields if not the whole way how we do things.
This post lists technical/material/institutional adaptations, which do indeed seem to be happening faster.
But the quote from Toffler is primarily concerned with our impending psychological breakdown in the face of rapid change, evidence of which I see everywhere.
I am a yoga teacher, so I work intimately with many actual humans. I mostly teach upper-middle class educated folks, and they’re not doing great, mental health-wise. Too much information, too much stimulation, too much choice. We have yet to develop adequate “mental hygiene” practices for dealing with the god-like powers that our smartphones give us.
Thus, I think that alongside calls for more investment in techno-scientific progress, we desperately need to prioritize the development of better mental health practices and cultural values—some of which may look a lot like older ways of living (like Jason hints at in Learning With My Hands). Just giving everyone a meditation app to help them feel better about their desperate loneliness isn’t going to cut it.
I am contemplating applying for the writing fellowship program to follow this line of argument further. Interested to hear if others resonate with it.
Yes. I recommend this article which has some helpful data pulled from the World Bank and Our World in Data, and explains the trends.
https://www.ft.com/content/967e1d77-8d3c-4256-9339-6ea7025cd5d3
But to summarize, as economic development advances, more people can spend more time inventing cleaner and better ways to do things, and industrial and economic development makes clean energy cheaper to deploy.
Thank you so much Erik!! This is brilliant! And encouraging!
I thought I’d post this here as the program content is partially inspired by Progress Studies (the unofficial working title even was ‘Progress Fellowship’ for a while!). Hope it’s helpful!
I bet GPT-4 could already do a lot of this work, perhaps with some fine-tuning and/or careful prompt engineering.
The problem with automating compliance documents is not just the time/effort to prepare them. It’s also the time spent waiting to get a response, and in some cases, “user fees” paid to the government to review them. If everyone started using GPT to do compliance, I suspect that the various agencies would just start to build up an ever-growing backlog of un-reviewed applications, until they’re all like immigration and they have decade-long wait times.
Also, if GPT-4 raises the “productivity” of environmental impact statement, my guess is that they could only increase productivity so long as there is not broad awareness and acceptance of the technology in writing the statements. If GPT-4 becomes the standard in writing statements, then expectations for the length and breadth of the statements have the potential to rise as well.
The entire argument rests on current nuclear arsenals being powerful enough to kill all people right now, but the author does not cite a single link supporting that key assertion. And for a good reason: even pessimistic scientific estimates say around 40% of people would survive.
A discussion about this article including comments to your objection can be found here:
https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/6j6qgNa3uGmzJEMoN/artificial-intelligence-as-exit-strategy-from-the-age-of
If regulation, money, and public opinion were no constraint, how many IQ points could a “CRISPR-baby” gain with modern technology?
How much of an issue is the “causal tagging problem” (i.e. knowing that the genes you’re editing actually increase intelligence)?
How much of an issue are off target mutations?
How many IQ points could be gained with just embryo selection?
It really depends on your technique. If you are doing CRISPR microinjection (which is very simple, and you should probably not do, because there are other better techniques) then there will likely be off-target mutations. However, in other techniques, you can do quality control, screening, and sequencing before the cells divide or before the embryo implants etc. There are lots of quality control things that can be done which haven’t been done yet for human embryo modification.
It depends on how many embryos you have available. For a normal round of IVF, you’re only looking at like 8 embryo choices. It depends on the parents as well. If they don’t have the mutations in the first place, then there’s nothing to select. I actually think memory is something that should be easier to test for and figure out. If we really wanted to figure out biological intelligence, then we should run a long-term large-scale animal breeding experiment where we try to breed an animal for higher intelligence. We have never done that before, ever. ((Dogs don’t count here. Working dogs have specific jobs and while that’s smarter, it’s not the same thing as selecting for overall general intelligence. I’d imagine that kind of dog would be disruptive in the farm work environment anyway… especially an intermediate along the way to higher intelligence.))
If by “CRISPR baby” you mean “every available means” and not specifically “CRISPR microinjection”, then I think there’s some IQ points, like the copy number variation one that showed an increase of 2-3 IQ points per copy, but I think we can get some good results even without focusing on IQ. For example, with short sleep you can dramatically increase the number of useful waking hours throughout an entire lifespan. There’s also a single mutation that seems likely to improve working memory capacity by 19-21% which is quite useful.
I am not that big on “polygenic traits modified through hundreds/thousands of point mutations”. I think there are other interesting things to do. For example, what if we worked on allowing the neurons to double one more time before becoming post-mitotic? There are other things for us to look at, I think, other than GWAS studies.
what are some examples of beating regulations when it hinders innovation?
It’s interesting how many of these questions are about regulators. I wouldn’t have expected that. I think that what’s most important is progress, innovation, followed by safety and quality assurance testing, and then getting things out into the markets, followed by fitting it into the forms that regulators expect & working with regulators to create a sane environment for innovation.
Having worked in regulated fintech, I strongly believe that the only way to do good work is by doing good high quality work. Yeah, sure, sometimes you luck out and you get a regulator that understands what’s going on and how to do things well. But often you just get precautionary principle stuff from the regulators instead of good help doing QA/testing. Sometimes you can impress them with systems that aren’t archaic/legacy and they appreciate the effort you put into doing things well with modern tooling, even if it doesn’t conform to the archaic expectations enforced by other regulators. etc. There’s some hope here, but not a lot.
What brings me some hope is to think about permissionless innovation. Ultimately you don’t have to ask for permission to start a family or birth a new child. Biology is the north star of decentralization. Every single person is a biological lifeform with their own cellular material and DNA. Technological progress means turning our intelligence and thoughts inward and modifying our DNA and our self-defining programs over time. This is not even a matter of free speech, it is a matter of personal agency and freedom to try to fix ourselves or be better or achieve whatever other goals we each have for ourselves and our futures.
At the end of the day, you really don’t want a totalitarian government regulating people such that they can’t move forward and self-actualize. Thankfully biology is already pretty decentralized and widely available. DNA is one of the most successful technologies of all time.
Hi. Maybe ten years ago, thanks to your role in maintaining #hplusroadmap, you seemed to me a leader of a new generation in transhumanism. Since then, while technology has kept advancing, and various futurist dreams have remained alive, I feel that “transhumanism” as a movement or subculture or identity, lost some of its momentum and its avantgarde character. One way to put it, is that in the 1990s there was a transhumanist futurism centered on Eric Drexler and nanotechnology, but in the 2010s it was eclipsed by the rationalist futurism centered on Eliezer Yudkowsky and artificial intelligence. Of course there have been many many other movements, personalities, and technologies of interest; but I think one could tell a plausible story about the radical techno-futurism of recent decades, in which a cultural transition from transhumanism to rationalism, is at the heart of the narrative.
Meanwhile, your own bio says that you got heavily into crypto, something I never got into, but which went from a “cypherpunk” fantasy, to a headline phenomenon, and ultimately to a financial ecosystem with a nominal worth of something like a trillion US dollars, and which, pardon my bluntness, seems to be riddled with at least as much hype, scamming, and corruption, as anything in mainstream finance. I would be interested to know how the recent history of transhumanism and futurism looks, from the perspective of someone who took your path, into the world of startups and legal commerce.
Well, look, if someone wants to join a community that is interested in building cool things then consider hplusroadmap: https://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap we recently added a discord bridge. We’ve been going for 15 years at this point. We have funding available for cool wacky projects, or for not-so-wacky projects, and people are always interested in collaborating or at least providing some input on ideas or what’s up. I think the problem is that the extropians, as much as I like them, didn’t keep going, and they didn’t continue to build or learn or educate and they ended up stagnating. At some level, maybe they were just a group writing cool emails about cool concepts they found interesting? At another level, maybe they really were the origination point of the financial singularity (bitcoin) and maybe their work with the cypherpunks on PGP and SSL and other technologies really should be attributed to the transhumanists… But for a lot of other tech (like germline engineering, human cloning, etc), we could have done this decades ago and it simply hasn’t been done yet. Why? We should encourage more people to build and work on these things. I don’t have the culture stuff solved & I’m open to ideas.
My interest in bitcoin could by some be considered a distraction from the more important projects you mention, but with regards to the scams and frauds, I’d point out that my interest has been in bitcoin- which is built by a very conservative group of programmers- and the edge between open-source permissionless innovation and figuring out how to interface with the regulated financial system. This started first with my work at LedgerX, the first CFTC-regulated bitcoin options exchange and clearinghouse, and then with the state-chartered bank in Wyoming that I co-founded. If bitcoin is going to grow and be physically accessible to the general public, then there are going to need to be regulated interfaces into the rest of the world of finance.
I know that might sound a little odd, because the wild west of bitcoin is all about decentralization and often the anarchists promote a very “screw the government” message or what not. But the reality is that only a few people can live like that, in the current environment. If you really want to impact people, there needs to be a transitory pathway available. There are trillions of dollars of financial assets operating on completely archaic systems and rails, and this directly limits our overall liquidity and financial wealth as a society. Likewise, with do-it-yourself biology and biohacking there needs to be a way to do things the right way and take things outside the system and unite them back into the global mainstream systems when the time is right.
More people should just do important things that move progress forward. Laws, policies, regulations and approvals can be figured out. I have faith in this because it’s fundamentally moral to work on making things better, even if “better” (or working on “better”) has been temporarily defined as unethical by precautionauts/precautioneers. I think that future history will show that working on technological progress is good and important.
Separately my interest in startups, writing software for income, and cryptocurrency has been that this is one way of funding all of the other cool and interesting projects for the transhumanist future. It’s kind of interesting to think that the extropians almost missed the financial singularity. Oops?
As for lesswrong.. I think Eliezer Yudkowsky and lesswrong have been something of a “false flag” of technological acceleration. If you were a nerdy kid interested in artificial intelligence, then the watering hole on the internet that you would most likely find would eventually be lesswrong. On the surface, it looks like it has all the things you would want: people interested in talking about AI, people talking about star lifting, or black hole engineering, or total cosmological flourishing of a quadrillion quadrillion humans for the next trillion years. But the more they hang out on lesswrong, the deeper into the philosophy you dwelve, you find that it’s mostly a watering hole designed to suck people into a precautionary ideology. As I said, it’s something of an ongoing “false flag”. I think that many people could have been working on leveling up their skills and projects in biology, chemistry, mechanical engineering, rocketry, or many other subjects, and instead they get sucked into writing long posts about why we shouldn’t do anything and how dangerous it all is and how if you do the math just right there’s no reason to do anything ever or whatever. I know many of you will say this is an unfair characterization, but I really do believe that lesswrong has done more harm than good to this population that would otherwise have been working on building things.
((While I am ranting about this, I would also like to register a complaint against the form of argumentation that goes like “well if you don’t agree with us that AI x-risk is the most important totalizing thing in the world and that all of your actions should be aligned with preventing that outcome then you simply don’t understand the arguments” and I assure you I certainly do understand. I have been here for a while lol. But it’s a very effective way of dismissing people on the edge of that community who disagree. It’s a cool immune system really, you have to admire it for what it is.))
What are the most cogent fears about genetic engineering, given the state of the art and what’s technically feasible?
Conversely, what are some prominent fears that are unlikely to ever be realised?
One thing that I see is that people are concerned about a loss of genetic diversity or we all become a mono-culture. I don’t see that as a reasonable fear. Have you tried to stomp out human diversity before? People are very resilient. They are creative and diverse. They will figure out all kinds of new weird forms and ways to live, even if you don’t like it. Only way I see a mono-culture is if we somehow have a world government enforcing it or something, and why would we want that anyway?
How much is innovation in genetic engineering held back by regulation?
Human and agricultural work is held back somewhat. Golden rice was actually rather simple but the biologists took 14 years of safety testing before it was deployed. Several million people went blind in the meantime. This was completely avoidable. GMO rice is not going to take over the world and should not require 14 years of “safety testing”. The precautionary principle gives people brain worms. Not the fun genetically modified kind of brainworms either.
Regulation in general holds back a lot of progress in biology. During the pandemic, the FDA suspended the rules and suddenly we had extremely rapid innovation. When they suspended the rules, I thought that was ridiculous. If we know the rules are wrong and broken, then we should get rid of the rules, not have a temporary suspension.
With the excess regulation, you also end up increasing the cost of getting drugs or other things to market and as a result you cut off the lower end of the market. This increases the costs and then investors need to get even higher returns in order to recoup investment.
There is a competitive market for investment yield and regulation sort of shapes the kind of yields that you can get in biotech. As a result, money flowing into biotech innovation is pretty constrained, even if the money is available and people are theoretically interested in funding these kinds of things.
https://www.capitalismmagazine.com/2019/07/the-federal-death-agency-fda/
Why do you think we don’t have more people starting ambitious genetic engineering projects?
There is definitely a bizarre social taboo surrounding the pursuit of some of these projects. Another constraint is that even if someone is doing the work, they can’t exactly be public especially in germline because the privacy of the child is of utmost importance.
Researchers in academia are mostly focused on grants for curing various diseases because that’s what appeals to the appetite of federal funding agencies and the philanthropic organizations. The academic biologists tend to be extremely sensitive to public opinion because the public controls much of the federal funding. As a result, they have felt the burn from the anti-GMO people and the attempts at stopping embryonic stem cell research. They absolutely do not want further prohibitions on research and they worry about people outside of academia doing things that cause a backlash on federal funding of researchers.
Thankfully, you don’t need to do this work inside of academia.
Focusing on diseases will never lead to extremely cheap interventions; there’s simply not enough sick people with the same problem. Nobody really focuses on enhancements. As a result, costs are going to remain high because the market for a specific disease can be incredibly small. Meanwhile the market for general broad spectrum mass market enhancement has a potential population of almost 8 billion people.
I also think that biologists don’t paint that interesting of a future. They usually talk about curing diseases but don’t have any vision beyond that point. What are we going to do after we cure all diseases? The silicon people have visions of computronium painting the universe. The biologists don’t really promote visions of a flourishing biosphere across the entire cosmos or some other moral vision for progress.
There’s some good news though. Since not everyone is working on the ambitious projects, there’s lots of low-hanging fruit available. I think there’s enough people working on curing all diseases or ending aging/anti-aging/longevity. Other ambitious projects include intelligence/memory enhancement, protein engineering, molecular nanotechnology, the complete control over cellular morphological form, brain preservation, brain uploading, cryonic preservation and resuscitation, etc. (I will also note here that longevity is getting lots of attention, but not as much for young people or germline; older people in my opinion might already be aged and that might be irreversible with technology in the next 30-50 years for all I know). I think we should be very excited about the future and work on really hard, important technologies. I think sometimes people might get complacent because it’s hard to realize that just several hundred generations ago we were all completely destitute and barely picking ourselves up out of the mud. We aren’t that far from where we came from. We absolutely must accelerate.
I would also say that there isn’t really VC for ambitious biotech. The way that VC works in biotech is that it’s mostly about funding the professor and his 12 postdocs that invented something (call it X) and then they spin out of a university and you fund the company doing X. That’s basically the main model. It doesn’t leave a lot of room for biology projects that aren’t spin outs. “Techbio” has been a recent improvement but it seems to be a lot of software startups? I’m not sure.
On longevity, I should add that I think more people working on ending aging would be good. In the past 5-10 years a lot more companies and funds have formed around longevity so that’s very exciting to see. But admittedly we don’t have an over-abundance of people working on extreme aging interventions; maybe a few million more people would be good to work on that problem?
What are the best near-term/foreseeable applications of genetic engineering? What is the low-hanging fruit here that we can see and define and should go after first?
I have a few other genetic interventions and modifications in the comments, but see also https://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/ for a list.
Related factors: it appears that harms due to technological change are much smaller than benefits due to technological change, and also much smaller than harms that we already suffer on an ongoing basis (like deaths due to disease).
Slightly tangentially: I have so many questions about that Irish population graph, like:
-- That is a huge population growth rate between 1800 and 1840 before the famine. What was going on there? I graphed it vs a few other European countries and while many of them were growing steadily during that period, nobody else had that high a percentage of growth (54% growth in 40 years if I’m doing the math right) except the UK, which has a crazy quick and apparently unrelated knee upward in the graph in 1810-1820. Was that just a time when both Ireland and the now-UK lands escaped the Malthus trap sooner than everyone else?
-- Then after the famine deaths and emigration wave, there’s a long steady decline that seems to be levelling off around 1920-- but then drops again, quite quickly, so that the population declines another 25% or so between 1920 and 1930. I can’t help thinking it must be related somehow to the Irish Free State gaining independence in 1922; but if OWiD had suddenly stopped counting the Northern Ireland population as part of Ireland at that date, I’d expect an even more abrupt decline. Was it emigration of the Protestant minority in the south to the UK? Economic hardship associated with independence? Something else?
Thanks for the great article :-)
I am commenting as someone who has spent a lot of time thinking about AI alignment, and considers themselves convinced that there is a medium probability (~65%) of doom. I hope this is not intrusive on this forum!
I hadn’t considered the crux to be epistemic, which is an interesting and important point.
I would be interested in an attempt to quantify how slowly humanity should be moving with this: Is the best level comparable to the one with genetic engineering, or nuclear weapon proliferation? Should we pause until our interpretability techniques are good enough so that we can extract algorithms from AlphaFold2?
I am also interested in possible evidence that would convince you of the orthodox (“Bostrom-Yudkowsky”) view: what proofs/experiments would one need to observe to become convinced of that (or similar) models? I have found especially the POWER-seeking theorems and the resulting experiments enlightening.
Again, thank you for writing the article.
Thanks.
Rather than asking how fast or slow we should move, I think it’s more useful to ask what preventative measures we can take, and then estimate which ones are worth the cost/delay. Merely pausing doesn’t help if we aren’t doing anything with that time. On the other hand, it could be worth a long pause and/or a high cost if there is some preventive measure we can take that would add significant safety.
I don’t know offhand what would raise my p(doom), except for obvious things like smaller-scale misbehavior (financial fraud, a cyberattack) or dramatic technological acceleration from AI (genetic engineering, nanotech).
True, I was insufficiently careful with my phrasing.
The idea of creating ASI as an omnipotent being, far superior and all-knowing, strikes me as a pseudo-religious argument wrapped in technical and rational language that makes it palatable to atheists. It’s a bit like how the wildest predictions from longevity/curing aging feel a bit like heaven for people who don’t believe in god.
I get how to get from ANI to AGI and then to ASI. It makes sense. But at the same time, something about it doesn’t. Perhaps this is why this position (AGI as a harbinger for extinction) lacks mainstream appeal.
Is this rationalists anthropomorphizing AI to behave/think like they thing, perhaps?
As someone who thinks AI doom is fairly likely (~65%), I reject this as psychologizing.
I think there is an argument for TAI x-risk which takes progress seriously. The transformative AI does not need to be omnipotent or all-knowing: it simply needs to be more advanced than the capability humanity can muster against it.
Consider the United States versus the world population from 1200: roughly the same size. But if you pitted those two actors against each other in a conflict, it is very clear who would win.
So either one would need to believe that current humanity is very near the ceiling of capability, or that we are not able to create more capable beings. (Which, in narrow domains, has turned out false, and the range of those domains appear to be expanding).
I claim this is not so outlandish, the current US would win against the 13th century 1000/1000 times. And here’s a fairly fine-grained scenario detailing how that could happen with a single agent trapped on the cloud.
But—it need not be that strict a framing. Humanity losing control might look much more prosaic: We integrate AI systems into the economy, which then over time glides out of our control.
In general, when considering what AI systems will act like, I try to simulate the actions of a plan-evaluatior, perhaps an outlandishly powerful one.
Edit: Tried to make this comment less snarky.
Great article! I think you expressed The Argument well and similarly to how I see it expressed by those who believe it.
I’m always surprised by how many tools are available to evaluate the argument…and that its fans rarely use any of them. It’s great to see you use some of these tools to critique it!
By way of comment: at the same time, your article leaves the argument looking more plausible (to me) than it probably is, just because your critiques don’t include as many angles as it might from progress studies (especially the scientific method and the history of technology). My attempted survey of the possible angles, some but not all of which you tackle:
Most catastrophic risks have a lot of evidence to tell us how much we should worry about them (the history of infectious disease outbreaks, nuclear accidents and near-accidents, etc). The argument never comes with any evidence. Worse yet, it’s rarely presented as a hypothesis to be falsified, but instead as speculation. This is especially surprising because their main catastrophic scenario is an accident, and accidents are one of the most common and well-studied kinds of risk (auto accidents, the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, airplane accidents, policies for canceling ferries in dangerously bad weather, nuclear power plant accidents, accidents involving Covid in a Wuhan laboratory vs. Wuhan seafood market, etc). Accidents are studied by all sorts of people including actuaries, government technocrats, and popular authors. Successful predictions of catastrophe (or anything) are almost always based on evidence.
More generally, the argument is usually presented without any scholarship or context outside of speculative philosophy. But there is lots of scholarship to know (beyond the above) from the histories of technology, human well-being, and predictions of apocalypse, and probably many other domains.
A cost-benefit analysis would be needed if the argument were to be made credible. Lifespans are about 35 years shorter in poor countries than they are for Japanese and Swiss women, and about 15 years longer for the richest US females than the poorest US males, so it’s a good estimate that 25+ years of life are lost by the average person due to risks that can be attacked by anti-poverty, public-health, and economic growth measures alone. Peter Attia is probably right that exercise, sleep, and food account for another 10 years. As you say, the argument glibly assumes that AI will solve pretty much any problem it needs to solve to kill us all. We have no reason to believe that, but those who do surely should also believe that the AI will solve any problem it needs to to gain that 35+ years of life for the average person among the 8 billion of us. At this rate, even Scott’s estimated 2% risk of an AI apocalypse looks like a bargain. The context provided by cost-benefit analysis also reminds us of where we ourselves should focus our attention. And of course the likely upside of AI doesn’t just depend on a glib assumption of AI capabilities — AI is a general purpose technology, so progress studies tells us something about what upside to expect.
Finally, the argument is rarely presented with a plausible mechanism.
What do you make of Eli Dourado’s take that AI probably isn’t a transformative/revolutionary tech because of regulations and the lack of innovation in physical meat-space etc? (“We wanted flying cars, and all we got was 140 characters”-kind of thing)
Curious why you think these can’t be replaced by AI creativity, empathy, and collaboration.
I guess it depends on the definition of each of these.
Empathy: No matter how advanced AI gets (true AGI or whatever) there will always be room for human <-> human empathy. AI will never truly have the same experiences as humans. It can pretend or fake like it does—and I think this could still be useful in many situations, like customer support or low-level therapy. It just wont be totally replaced by it.
Collaboration: Probably the weakest of the 3. Of course any AI can collaborate, and currently they already do. I still believe that for the near future human <-> human collaboration will be needed—i.e. we will want a “human in the loop” for some time.
Creativity: Still very much needed for the foreseeable future. LLMs, image generators, etc. very much do express creativity by combining ideas in latent space to things that are truly novel. But human brains still think (“explore possibility space”) differently, and are therefore valuable. It’s the same reason I believe having diverse intelligences (human, AI, other species, alien) is valuable. Also helps to push the boundaries of possibility space in a way that these models may have difficulty.
I’m curious your (or others) take on these though.
Agreed. And we already have fake empathy on tap in novels, tv shows, and movies. It does have it’s pleasures, but it didn’t replace us, and neither will fake empathy from bots.
Why are there so many medical studies using sloppy research methods, and how big a problem do you think this is?
I noticed this when trying to figure out how common Long Covid is—most of the studies being reported in the media, at least early on, did not have a control group. On the basis of these studies, the media was saying that Long Covid affects 30, 50, or even 60% of people who get Covid.
Many of the studies also use methods which suffer from responder bias like surveying online support groups. Studies which track cohorts over time and have a good control group find more modest figures like 10-15% of patients experiencing greater than expected symptoms at 3 months. However nearly all of these are retrospective studies which as I understand it are not as good as prospective studies. More recently a study came out which does what should be done all along—it compares outcomes of Covid patients with patients who got symptomatic non-covid upper respiratory infection. They found more symptoms in the control group than the Covid group at 3 months. This calls into question whether Long Covid is actually an actual phenomena in its own right or just another iteration of post-viral illness / post-viral chronic fatigue syndrome (see Vinay Prasad’s video).
I wonder, if low quality studies can be so misleading, is it worth doing them at all? It seems to me we should be pooling resources to do more high quality studies rather than many low quality ones.
Definitely an enormous issue! I’m not as familiar with the Long-COVID data, but the issue applies to a lot of other fields/areas.
I argue in the book that one of the most prevalent issues is linked to how researchers are incentivized to publish quickly and often. This means that studies will often tend to be under-powered (i.e., too few participants to show the ‘right’ level of statistical certainty) because it’s time-consuming to include more patients and because it’s often more expensive. The result is, as you point out, that we’re inundated with studies that don’t show much of an effect size, or at least not enough to conclude anything meaningful. Ultimately, this wastes research resources on a systems level, because one big study would have sufficed for fewer resources overall. But because it’s a publishing game, researchers aren’t incentivized to collaborate as much as we’d like from a progress perspective. In the book, I call this ‘artificial progress’, where we think we’ve learnt something new about the world (through the publishing of these studies), but ultimately we’re just misleading ourselves and need to use even more resources to clarify studies that should have been clear from the outset.
One could argue that it should ‘cost’ more for authors to submit under-powered studies to journals, since journals often accept their research despite the methodological flaws, and therefore authors aren’t penalized for this type of behavior. The journals might also prioritize interesting results over the study size being adequate – meaning that too many of these articles get published. Authors and journals ultimately both ‘win’ from this behavior.
I think this issue of sloppy research methods is probably MUCH more prevalent than we think, but I haven’t been able to find reliable sources. In the book I talk about research misconduct and fraud, where some “studies suggest that the true rate of fraud among published studies lies somewhere between 0.01% and 0.4%.” I’d suspect the rate of sloppy research methods to be many times higher than this.
That makes sense, thank you.
“studies suggest that the true rate of fraud among published studies lies somewhere between 0.01% and 0.4%”. Even 0.4% seems drastically too low—perhaps 10 times too low. I’d be curious to see the source for this claim. An analysis by Elizabeth Bik and others found problematic image duplication in 3.8% of studies. Some of that may have been accidental, but I suspect most were intentional fraud. If ~3.8% percent of papers have this one specific type of fraud, that suggests an even larger percentage contain fraud in general. It’s extremely hard to know, though. I doubt it’s over 10% but I could easily see it being 5%, which is obviously still a massive problem.
How do you think the role of physicians would be affected by AI?
how far we are from bio engineering to treat diseases/conditions?
Are we winning the war on cancer? Is it reasonably fast/steady progress, or has something gone wrong?
Good question! I think we seem to be going at a steady pace, but that depends on who you ask. Ultimately, it probably depends on what your expectations are of progress; my hunch is that people have higher expectations for cancer than for other diseases, particularly since it’s received so much attention historically, and that sets us up for inevitable failure when these expectations fail to materialize – much like the ‘war on cancer’ in the latter part of the 1900’s.
Broadly speaking, one can approach this from a treatment perspective and a prevention perspective. From a treatment perspective, there is definitely progress: “Since 1971, the cancer death rate is down more than 25 percent. Between 1975 and 2016, the five-year survival rate increased 36 percent. The arsenal of anticancer therapies has expanded more than tenfold.” We’re also in a position now where immunotherapies are becoming commonplace, and the drugs are becoming highly sophisticated. I think the next big treatment frontier is figuring out how best to use the arsenal of drugs we have, i.e., can we combine therapies in such a way that our treatments become more effective. We obviously hope to keep developing breakthrough drugs, but there’s a lot of untapped potential in lower-cost solutions and re-combining cancer drugs in new ways. This would also certainly save money, but pharmaceutical companies are obviously not as interested in doing this. To sum up, I think the treatment frontier involves greater experimentation with the implementation of drugs we currently have.
I’m not as convinced that our cancer prevention progress has been as impressive, however. Obviously, we’ve gotten a lot better at identifying environmental contaminants that might increase the likelihood of developing cancer, but a lot of the lifestyle diseases (e.g., obesity) that increase the risk of cancer haven’t been solved by any means. Ultimately, preventing cancer in the first place is a lot more efficient than having to treat it later.
As the saying goes – cancer is such a heterogenous phenomenon that it might not be prudent to lump them all together. They’re so distinct that the ‘war on cancer’ is more a ‘war on many, many fronts’. We’re definitely making progress, but we shouldn’t expect a one-size-fits-all solution anytime soon.
What has gone wrong in the fight against Alzheimer’s? Did a “cabal” prevent funding for anything other than the amyloid plaque hypothesis?
What do you think is the cause of Eroom’s Law? Why has it (fortunately) stalled in the last decade? Do we have any hope of reversing it?
To see the other perspective, try replacing “consumption” with food and “consumerism” with obesity. We only have 1 earth (for the foreseeable future), and rampant consumerism leads to a very inefficient conversion from its resources to value.
Also, you can still be anti-consumerism while agreeing that the global south would ideally see higher consumption. Reducing obesity doesn’t mean we shouldn’t feed the starving.
I would agree with you about growing costs for equipment in trendy “big science” (dark mater, hot fusion, gravity waves, accelerators), and I see this trend in military domain, like in IT in old-fashioned companies, like in nuclear industry… It is aggravated by a growing increase of regulation.
It seems that some domains push providers to improves performances to the point nobody can buy the product, but it is really perfect. I’ve heard that for nuclear reactors (they can resist to anything, but nobody can afford them), for tanks (they are smart, agile, powerful, robust), for military drones (they can work in civil air zone, do any mission, transport much, but cost like a helicopter)...
Meanwhile, in IT I’ve seen the trend to RAID disks, to Cloud, to SaaS, while Ukraine war showed the efficiency of simpler drones, not so overengineered canons, old tanks and old planes, tinkered by motivated staffs...
Here I’ve caught an article about the cross-pollination of AI and new experimental methods, reducing costs by 10x.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/biologists-say-deep-learning-is-revolutionizing-pace-of-innovation-eeb79c1b
It makes me think about the exponential learning curve drawn by piling S-curves… As if the end of an S curves goes to unaffordable perfect technology, and that a revolution make you start again the exponential phase of a new S-curve...
See how quickly African labs have used Crispr-CAS technology for their own needs, to fight emerging diseases or climate change in their agriculture. It was done for much cheaper than for transgenic GMOs.
Have you considered printing off a few sheets of paper, getting some glue, and just adding a few signs yourself? ;-)
Some tech, like seatbelts, are almost pure good. Some techs, like nukes are almost pure bad. Some, like cars, we might want to wait until we develop seatbelts and traffic lights for before we use widely. It depends on the technology.
Thanks for posting and considering. I agree. It would be great if more people researched this.
A simple way to start would be to study the open science hardware momentum. A few anecdotes from that scene over the past decade:
OpenROV (us) — made ROV prices >10X cheaper Open qPCR (Chai Bio) — made qPCR multiple X cheaper OpenTrons — made liquid handling multiple X cheaper Cubesats (not really OSH, but similar idea) — made satellites 10x cheaper
They are all orders of magnitude more affordable, and many have completely rearranged who uses the tool, sometimes opening up big new markets. The lack of demand pull assumption should be tested.
-David
Consumers, in the “consumerism” worldview exist only to receive goods. It’s a primarily self-centered orientation to the world, and that’s why people sneer the word with such a moralizing tone.
Imagine the opposite of consumerism is producerism. Producing time-saving conveniences, building stuff, retaining walls and, heck, even trivial trinkets. Producing is a “nice thing to do.” An active life working and valuing the things you wished you valued while helping others in the small, tedious ways that the economy rewards a person for.
But a “consumerist” is a distracted, binge-watching, GrubHub couch potato perhaps sporting a part-time BS job. People are afraid of living in a “distraction/hedonistic/morally corrupt/selfish society”. And part of the reason this objection to society comes up so much is that (probably mistakenly) they think the following:
many jobs are BS 2a) much of what people purchase is not actually valuable, only perceived as such. 2b) much of what we buy, our best selves would not.
much of what society nudges us towards (in music, in carbon emissions, in social values) is not in our own or our collective best interests.
What is the problem of missing novelty in drug development, and what can be done to fix it?
A few different issues! I’ll preface my answer by saying that there is certainly some evidence that ‘good ideas are becoming harder to find’, meaning that the marginal effort required to discover a new drug is increasing. This isn’t an excuse for the pharmaceutical industry, but it is worth noting.
Structurally, large pharmaceutical companies take too few risks during drug development, meaning that the onus is on smaller companies and universities to develop novel products. Why so? Well in more recent times, large pharma companies have essentially offloaded a lot of their R&D in favor of simply acquiring smaller companies or the intellectual property rights to discoveries made at universities. This has been enabled by a variety of legislative changes, the most obvious one being the Bayh-Dole act in the United States (which allowed universities and institutions to acquire the rights for intellectual property generated from federal funding, which they could then sell on to companies). Of course, this seems like a logical strategy if it saves money, but from a broader drug discovery perspective, it slows the rate of progress.
A big issue with this set-up is smaller companies and universities don’t necessarily have the capital to try risk-taking, either. Universities are incentivized by a ‘publish or perish’ culture, where they are pressured to publish often, and aren’t funded to the extent that they can try out a wide range of potential drug candidates. Smaller biotech firms are also relatively cash-constrained, meaning that they might be able to focus on one (or maybe two) products simply because their cashflow is too small.
The result of this is that larger pharmaceutical companies have more liquidity and cashflow than smaller firms but aren’t willing to take risks (because they can simply acquire externally). On the flip side, smaller firms and academia are (relatively) more willing to try and develop novel products, but they are cash constrained. The overall consequence is stasis.
Other reasons could be over-regulation in certain settings (increasing the cost of getting drugs to market), broken drug markets (such as antibiotics, which I talk a lot more about in the book), and that the lowest hanging fruits have been picked (as mentioned at the start).
Some potential solutions? There are currently different drug payment models that are being tested (such as subscription models for antibiotics that is designed to make antibiotic production more lucrative), there are examples of early-stage incentives (such as Operation Warp-Speed to incentivise vaccine production during COVID-19) that might be effective, and different financing options for companies (i.e., pooling large sums together and constructing a diverse research portfolio of 50 drugs in the R&D pipeline, where only one or two need to succeed to make a profit overall). Some of the other solutions I’ll leave to be read in the book!
Which chapter of the book was the most interesting to write?
Two chapters spring to mind—for different reasons!
The very first chapter, “Citations as Currency”, was probably the most fun to write, mostly because friends and colleagues that have read it can identify with the themes. The chapter is concerned with how researchers attempt to accumulate ‘scientific capital’ by publishing papers and getting citations, but this ends up distorting the types of research projects we choose to pursue. I enjoyed the colleagues telling me: “yes, this is exactly how I feel!” – validating that this really is an issue.
Chapter 15, “Death of a Star // New Kids on the Block”, was also fun to write! It’s concerned with how intergenerational dynamics in scientific teams influence progress. More concretely, I look at what happens when prestigious research leaders pass away, who takes over, and the difference between experienced and younger researchers in their research habits. I didn’t know anything about this literature prior to researching for the book, so it was an eye-opener!
What is the impact of social media on medical discovery?
Speed of information transfer: There’s good reason to believe that social media rapidly increases the speed at which science can be disseminated. Ideally, this increases the rate of medical discovery by a) making us aware of what others are doing and that we can build on and b) exposing us to alternative approaches and methods from other disciplines that we can integrate into our own work. I’ve certainly benefitted greatly from being exposed to ‘random’ articles from other fields.
Epistemic disorientation: In contrast to the first point, there are potentially negative effects of social media on both the rate and direction of discovery. For example, one the main issues with social media is that we can end up inducing a type of epistemic disorientation, where there is simply too much information to make sense of anything. We experienced some of this during COVID-19, where the amount of (contrasting) information that was being published ultimately confused us more than it provided clarity. Downstream consequences of this are that we end up having to conduct research to disprove the opinions of others, rather than doing it for any scientific reasons. Various conspiracy theories circulating online, such as the link between vaccination and autism, could also waste research resources.
Hype: Social media could also overhype certain treatments (e.g., Wegovy at the moment). This could result in disproportionate amounts of funding going towards ‘trendy’ research areas, meaning that resources are detracted from potentially more pressing health areas. In the book I call this ‘scientific bubbles’, where too much capital is concentrated in a small research area; the fear is, of course, that our expectations fail to materialize – resulting in a bubble burst of confidence and a loss of public trust in science.
Definitely many other ways—but these three come to mind most immediately!
You asked for steelmanning. I speak as someone who’s much on board with much of what you say above.
For me, the key reason why I’m worried about consumerism is that it can easily become an addiction and it tempts me to give the unimportant things in life too much attention.
Imagine if someone asked why cocaine or alcohol have a bad image. Obviously, cocaine and alcohol make people happy—very much so. But they’re also addictive. What was supposed to be a tool for achieving happiness turns into a master. And then it destroys my ability to focus my full attention on the things that truly make us happy: relationships, God, achievements, nice meals, generosity, art, etc
Great points. In (good) science, scope matching is one of the most important concerns. I’ve always wondered why it doesn’t have a (widely used) name.
Scope matching failures really do come up constantly in modern criticisms of new technologies, whether it’s social media or AI. Probably happened centuries ago too
I think part of what the critics of “consumerism” are motivated by is the increased specialization of production which ensued from the Commercial and Industrial Revolutions. Instead of molding their own bowls and carving their own spoons of wood and fashioning their own stools to sit on, people bought much better and cheaper stuff from Wedgewood, Chipendale and other manufacturers. People had consumed before, but the production was invisible as it occurred in in cottages.
I think another part of what critics have in mind is that a good bit of consumption is in the form of positional goods—keeping up with the Jonses (or showing you got ahead of them). Now I think the competition for social status is a human universal and not likely to be changed by mewling moralists. I think competition by striving to get the baubles—the Ferraris, the Guccis, etc. - is far less damaging than many of the alternatives. People will compete for social status; it is simply a question of what form the competition will take. The great triumph of modernity is in replacing the quest for glory and honor with the quest for stuff.
Great post. I would add that when we talk about lifting people out of poverty we’re literally talking about increasing their consumption. Consumption is also a synonym for the economic part of well-being.
I’d venture to speculate that the main reason we aren’t better at reducing poverty, increasing middle-class well-being, making life better for families, fighting disease, and other important goals, is because we don’t pay enough attention to increasing median consumption.
For anyone who’s interested: I’ll be teaching the next cohorts of The Foundations of New York soon! It’s an accelerated introduction into NYC government/law that also touches on dependencies at the state and federal levels. Class begins in mid-April and goes through May.
https://maximumnewyork.substack.com/p/the-foundations-of-new-york-applications
How do you think that framing a discussion about the effects of future technologies as potentially leading to scenarios of existential hope as opposed to existential risk can be helpful? Or is positing a dichotomy between existential hope and risk sort of missing a key point?
That’s an interesting question and I would love to know more about what key point you think it’s missing.
I’m the meantime, here’s two things I’d say:
I do wonder how much the existing heavy focus on specific risks and worst case scenarios may end up steering us those ways. Christine Peterson recently gave the steering car analogy, i.e. that you’re not supposed to stop your car on the side of the highway because drivers automatically steer into it by looking at it. Positive directions to make progress toward can have the benefit of enticing more cooperation on exciting shared goals. A related model is perhaps is Drexler’s talk on Paretotopian Goal Alignment where points out that as automation and AI raise the stakes of cooperation the benefits of cooperating for reaping the rewards may increasingly outweigh costs of non-cooperation leaving them on the table: https://www.effectivealtruism.org/articles/ea-global-2018-paretotopian-goal-alignment
More concretely, I see differential technology development as a promising way to account for risks of technologies while proactively building safety and security enhancing technologies first. What attracted me to Foresight is that it’s comprised of a highly technical community across various domains who nevertheless care a lot about creating secure beneficial long term uses of their applications, so the DTD angle feels like a good fit and framing — at least for our community. More on DTD: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/g6549FAQpQ5xobihj/differential-technological-development
Very interesting, thanks for the thoughts!
I realize now that my questions were a bit unclear. I tend to think about the world in terms of trade-offs. So my first question was really about the trade-off of thinking about the future in terms of existential hope vs existential risk.
You already addressed a key upside of thinking in terms of existential hope that I hadn’t thought of with your first point, which is that thinking of the future can create a self-fulfilling prophecy, so it’s better to have a positive vision of the future than a negative one.
My second question was mostly about my own reticence to posit trade-offs everywhere since I do it too much probably. Sometimes, there is a false dichotomy in thinking about things in dichotomous ways (“both/and” instead of “either/or”). So perhaps it’s not best to think of thinking about existential hope vs existential risk as a trade-off at all. That’s what I was getting at, about whether I was missing a key point about the way you think about this topic by trying to frame the discussion in terms of a dichotomy.
By the way, I love the idea of existential hope and think it is a beneficial concept, in part to help avoid doomerism. =)
It looks like the next major technological wave will be AI. How might this change Foresight’s plans or focus areas? Would you focus more on AI? Or, can AI help us with nanotech, longevity, etc. (and how exactly)?
In a few previous comments here, I point out how we integrate ML as a major driver of progress in our areas, e.g. such as molecular machines simulation tools, and how it affects our focus with respect to whole brain emulations. I give a longer review of how computing and AI progress affects each of our technical domains in this Breakthroughs in Computing Series by Protocol Labs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBvkFZycXRQ
With respect to Foresight’s role in safe AI progress, I think Foresight’s comparative advantage lies in bringing computer security inspired lens to AI development:
This is largely due to Foresight Senior Fellow Mark Miller, who, in 1996, gave this talk on Computer Security as the Future of Law (http://www.caplet.com/security/futurelaw), and together with Eric Drexler, published the foundational Agoric Open Systems Papers (https://papers.agoric.com/papers/), laying out a general model of cooperation enabled by voluntary rules, that applies not only to today’s human economy, but may be transferable to a future ecology, populated by human and AI intelligences.
Mark built on the Agoric papers by following the computer security thread as a necessary condition for building systems in which both humans and AIs could voluntarily cooperate. Recently this thinking culminated in Mark, Christine Peterson (Foresight’s co-founder) and me co-authoring the book Gaming the Future, focusing on specific cryptography and security tools that may help secure human AI cooperation on the path to paretotopian futures: https://foresight.org/gaming-the-future-the-book.
I think Miller’s and Drexler’s work on reframing the traditionally singleton-focused AI safety in terms of secure coordination across human and AI entities that relies on the respect of boundaries is now more relevant than ever, given A infosecurity risks, that have become a larger focus within AI alignment. I have a longer Lesswrong post on this coming next weekend.
What areas of research or technology are most underrated by the broader research world, and why?
Here are a few across different Foresight focus areas:
Biotech:
Xenobots: small self-healing biological machines created from frog cells that can move around, push a payload, retain memory, self-heal, and exhibit collective behavior in the presence of a swarm of other Xenobots. I would also love to see more work on the general potential of bioelectricity for human longevity. See Michael Levin’s Foresight seminar: https://foresight.org/summary/bioelectric-networks-taming-the-collective-intelligence-of-cells-for-regenerative-medicine
Cryonics & nanomedicine: If we don’t reach Longevity Escape Velocity in our lifetime, some may choose cryonics as plan B. Currently, in principle a cryonics patient can be maintained in biostasis but cannot be revived. Conceptual research may explain how nanotechnology can collect information from preserved structures, compute how to fix damages and aid with repair. Rob Freitas book on this topic:https://www.amazon.com/Cryostasis-Revival-Recovery-Cryonics-Nanomedicine/dp/099681535X
Molecular Machines:
A computing room: Imagine tables become computing surfaces, and notepads, captured by overhead cameras, can become the user interface for manipulating small proteins. See Shawn Douglas and Bret Victor’s Foresight presentation: https://youtu.be/_gXiVOmaVSo?t=949
A chemputer: Imagine software translating chemists’ natural language into recipes for molecules that a robot “chemputer” can understand and produce. See Lee Cronin’s Foresight presentation: https://foresight.org/summary/the-first-programmable-turing-complete-chemical-computer-lee-cronin-university-of-glasgow
Security & AI:
Homomorphic AI: Andrew Trask’s work on using homomorphic encryption to fully encrypt a neural network. This means the intelligence of the network is safeguarded against theft, and AI could be trained in insecure environments and across non-trusting parties. Plus, the AI’s predictions are encrypted and can’t impact the real world without a secret key, i.e. the human controlling the key could release the AI into the world, or simply individual predictions that the AI makes. See Andrew Trask’s paper: https://iamtrask.github.io/2017/03/17/safe-ai/
Ocaps & seL4 computer security: Object-capability (ocap) systems enable authorization-based access control across using rights, which grant computational objects access as well as the ability to delegate the right further. This leads to granular, scalable, secure systems. For instance, SeL4, the only operating system microkernel that withstood a series of DARPA red-teams, is using ocaps (and is also formally verified). Given recent AI infosec concerns, I would love to see more work scaling such security approaches to more complex systems. See Gernot Heiser’s Foresight presentation: https://foresight.org/summary/gernot-heiser-sel4-formal-proofs-for-real-world-cybersecurity
What are some new projects you are working on but haven’t published yet?
What are some projects you want to see but wish someone else or another org was working on?
Hi Sam, here are two previews of projects we’re working on but which aren’t published yet.
AI-assisted tech trees enabled by Discourse graphs
Throughout 2022, we have been building technology trees to map our five interest areas; molecular nanotechnology, longevity biotechnology, neurotechnology, secure human AI interaction, and space. The goal is to help onboard new talent and funders into the fields by sketching out which required capabilities are required for the long-term goals of the field, who is working on them, and which open challenges are left to be tackled. The trees contain 50k+ nodes but the current interfaces are still pretty clunky and hard to navigate for outsiders: https://foresight.org/tech-tree
What’s new is that we’ll likely be launching a Discourse graph-enabled tech tree edition, which allows natural language question-based navigation of the trees, making the main info much easier to digest for users. In addition, a gpt integration in the tool itself can automate parts of the research process by populating entire paths of the tree automatically. For instance, when prompting the gpt integration questions such as “what are the ten main labs working on autophagy” or “what are the main technical challenges we need to solve to make progress on privacy-preserving ML?” replies relatively well matched human-generated replies, even though there is still fact-checking and completion to do. This means our tech tree architects can function as reviewers and editors, rather than research assistants combing the web from scratch, making the roadmaps more long-term sustainable.
The discourse graph editions of the trees scheduled to go live by July would allow individuals to contribute to the main trees and fork their own AI-assisted tech trees. They would also enable users to advance progress on highlighted challenges via an integrated bounty tool. Thanks to the amazing Discourse graph team for building the tool and allowing us to use it. More about how the tool works: https://protocol.ai/blog/discourse-graph-qa/
Existential Hope book
We’re currently working on a book proposal on Existential Hope to highlight alternative futures to the currently en vogue doomerism. It’s early stage but may discuss various great future scenarios, plus “eucatastrophes”, i.e. positive turning points, technologies and strategies to get there. Many of the people and resources that inspire the book can be found on: https://www.existentialhope.com
How does Foresight Institute allocate its time/effort across projects? Do you have a way of thinking about how much attention to spend on different speculative areas?
Foresight Institute was established in 1986 on the ideas discussed in Engines of Creation, Drexler, published by Eric Drexler, co-founder of Foresight. The book lays out a network of technologies that have the potential to significantly enhance the human condition, including nanotechnology, biotechnology, information technology, and cognitive science, which are interconnected with other important technologies like robotics and space exploration in complex ways.
Given the broad technology stack Engines considered, the book, and Foresight, became an early Schelling point for scientists and technologists who wanted great futures across the board of technologies.
So within this broad technology stack, we decide on our focus by weighing how much attention an issue we think of as important is already receiving with how much our community is in a position to contribute.
For instance, since our inception until today, the general field of molecular nanotechnology remains undervalued, and our community has a unique potential to contribute to it, so generally advancing the field in a beneficial direction is still where the bulk of our fellowship, prizes, workshops, and seminar strength lies.
Then, within our other technology focus areas (bio, neuro, space, secure human AI cooperation), there are often specific subdomains that are still too niche, exotic, ambitious or interdisciplinary for the mainstream of that field to address.
For instance, when potential AI race dynamics first became an issue, we used to hold annual workshops after the Bay Area EAGs, focused on AGI coordination across great powers and corporations:
2019 / AGI: Toward Cooperation: https://fsnone-bb4c.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2019-AGI-Cooperation-Report.pdf
2018 / AGI: Coordination & Great Powers: https://fsnone-bb4c.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/AGI-Coordination-Geat-Powers-Report.pdf
2017 / AGI: Timelines & Policy: https://foresight.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/AGI-TimeframesPolicyWhitePaper.pdf
At the time a lot of governance work popped up so we refocused our annual AGI-focused workshops on bridge-building between the security and AI safety communities, as a currently undervalued area that we can meaningfully contribute to given our existing strong security and cryptography community:
2022/ Cryptography, Security, AI workshop: https://foresight.org/crypto-workshop/
2023/ Cryptography, Security, AI workshop: https://foresight.org/intelligent-cooperation-workshop-2023
That being said, we’re currently reviewing whether to take up the AI coordination workshops again given timelines coming down, leading to new interest in revisiting those meetings.
Another area we’re taking up given shortening AI timeline that we think we have a comparative advantage in helping with given our AI and neurotech community is revisiting Whole Brain Emulation as a potential strategy for AI safety, leading to this 2023 workshop, chaired by Anders Sandberg, co-author of the original WBE roadmap in 2007:
2023/ Whole Brain Emulation for AI Safety workshop: https://foresight.org/whole-brain-emulation-workshop-2023
Do you see most of the value/impact/benefit that the Foresight Institute produces as coming from a few key outputs, or from a larger list of projects each of which only produces a fraction of your total value? If the first, what are your key outputs?
I think Foresight’s value comes from a larger list of projects each of which has a small chance at creating a large impact. This comes mostly from the fact that we focus on advancing the beneficial use of a variety of undervalued technologies, including nano, bio, neuro, computing, and space, whose trajectory is harder to predict. We do this through early ecosystem development in these areas, that usually includes tools like our fellowships, prizes, workshops, and virtual seminars. Given that different technologies impact Given that many of the technologies are influenced by the relative speed of other technologies, they will be advancing at varying rates, and tools to accelerate them are differently useful at different stages.
For instance, for driving progress in Molecular Nanotechnology, from 1986 onward, Foresight started hosting annual technical conferences, published research papers, developed a Nanotechnology Roadmap, and launched the Feynman Prizes to award work toward molecular manufacturing.
The road was incredibly bumpy, but in 2016, Sir Fraser Stoddart was finally awarded the Nobel Prize for his work “for the design and synthesis of molecular machines” (https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/chemistry/2016/press-release/) just nine years after he received Foresight’s Feynman Prize for the exact work: https://foresight.org/foresight-feynman-prizes/
Today, molecular nanotechnology progress is accelerating faster, largely enabled by new AI simulation tools, such as AlphaFold, Rosetta, Samson, CanDo, and more. Simulation tools, combined with progress in newer approaches to molecular nanotechnology, such as DNA origami, led tech-analysts such as Eli Durado declare that it’s Nanotechnology’s spring: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/nanotechnologys-spring
To streamline progress across tool builders, in 2022 we hosted a Design Tool for Molecular Machines Systems-focused workshop https://foresight.org/molecular-workshop, whose 2023 iteration will focus on opportunities for combining insights across tools to work to the design of more complex molecular machinery: https://foresight.org/foresight-molecular-systems-design-workshop-2023
We aren’t a leading driver in each of the technological areas in particular but by providing a container that enables for multidisciplinarity across fields such as ML and molecular machines, we hope to facilitate insight and tech transfer across them.
What does Eric Drexler think about the Foresight Institute? If I recall correctly, he was one of the founders?
I think this is a question that is better directed at Eric himself :) I can confirm that he was one of Foresight’s co-founders, and that he did present at a few more Foresight recent events, such as the Decentralized AI workshop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pClSjljMKeA, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNDD-ZbEsJA) and a Molecular Machines workshop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjgjtAk-lws&t=1s).
I can also definitely say that our community remains excited about his outstanding work, such as Comprehensive AI Services, the Open Agency Architecture, Paretotopian Goal Alignment, and Molecular Nanotechnology.
What are some example decisions that the Foresight Institute’s work has helped influence?
Given that our main effort is to kindle beneficial innovation in undervalued technical domains of importance for the long-term future, such decisions are sometimes hard to trace but are mostly in the area of founding and funding such projects.
Through Foresight matchmaking, members have started companies (such as a carbon drawdown company co-founded by a Foresight Fellow who met their co-founder at a Foresight event and recently raised $30M in follow-on funding), new research projects (such as a major research project building LLM-enabled preference simulations of groups of people which was founded and funded at a Foresight workshop), and existing organizations receiving government funding (more than $30M for a water filtration company, and $15M for a molecular nanotechnology simulation project at a university through Foresight workshops).
Other decisions we shape involve early career path choices, with individuals joining organizations, including a neurotech FRO, several major longevity companies, and security companies, through Foresight events. In rare cases, aid career decisions more actively, for instance by providing J1 visas to promising researchers seeking to move to the US. This more tailored support is particularly prominent with younger applicants who have little default exposure to senior researchers, funders, and entrepreneurs in their domain.
Thanks for this, Lev. Some things I’d like to understand deeper if you were to write about this more:
What are the remaining challenges of BCI? (vs. what has been solved already?)
What are the most promising approaches? How do they differ and what are their pros/cons?
Do we need scientific discoveries to make this work, or is this science known and it’s mostly engineering?
You talk here mostly about motor output; what about sensory input?
What is the legal framework around this? Does existing regulation even handle this? Will that be a problem?
Most of the EA longtermist arguments are about future people existing at all. If there’s an extinction event, there will be no future people with complex values.
Usually “optimistic news on science” means writing newspaper article that take a scientific study and misrepresent it as being more important than it really is to entertain people who like reading about science. A big part of human progress is about fixing problems and roadblocks to it.
One big undercovered progress story might be the new CTIS in the EU that became mandatory for new clinical studies at the end of last month. Clinical trials are important to advance science.
I’d love to read good reporting on CTIS that actually goes into what’s good and bad with the new system and not just reporting that’s optimistic about it.
Another interesting story that might benefit from good journalism is that the National Electric Code in the US is written by the National Fire Protection Association and thus for the interests of firefighters. It seems that they added a requirement for single module shutdown to solar cells with results in solar installation being more expensive while there’s no clear evidence that it produces a significant safety gain.
In both cases, the subject matter of how regulations relate to progress is very complex, but good reporting about those could do a lot more for progress than cheering on individual things.
Elon musk is very good at making himself the center of as many conversations about technology as possible.
He should not be taken as a source of information of any reliability.
Living on mars with tech not too far beyond current tech is like living in antarctica today. It’s possible, but it isn’t clear why you would want to. A few researchers on a base, not much else.
Think ISS but with red dust out the windows.
At some point, which might be soon or not so soon, tech is advanced enough that it becomes easy to get to mars. But at that point, traditional biological humans on mars might be stupid, compared to say self replicating robots containing computers running uploaded human minds in the asteroid belt.
A mars base is cool scifi. But it might turn into the largest white elephant in history. It doesn’t solve any obvious practical purpose in increasing human wellbeing or industrial capability.
Sure, at some point you are disassembling all the planets to build a dyson sphere. But before that, a mars landing doesn’t actually need to mean any real progress.
Thanks for your comment! The goal should be to colonize our solar system before advancing to another. Learning to develop an atmosphere would be man’s greatest achievement because then we would not be dependent on our planet but we could colonize any planet with the right composition/distance from its star etc.
Space travel is Man’s next journey and I’m here for it, if that means downloading my consciousness onto a self-replicating robot, count me in haha although I’m only studying to be a pilot; I don’t pretend to be a computer engineer or neurologist.
I don’t think the “aside from the internet, nothing much”. Firstly comuter and internet tech have been fairly revolutionary across substantial chunks of industry and our daily lives. This is the “a smartphone is only 1 device so doesn’t count as much progress” thinking. Without looking at the great pile of abacuses and slide rules and globes and calculators and alarm clocks and puzzle toys and landline phones and cameras and cassette tapes and … that it replaced and improved on.
Secondly, there are loads of random techs that were invented recently, solarPV, LED’s. Mrna Vaccines. Electric (self driving?) cars.
And finally, a substantial part of progress is the loads of tiny changes that make things cheaper and better. If you don’t include things like 3d-printers and drones that haven’t really gotten good yet, then of course you will see less inventions recently. The first fridges were expensive and not that good either.
It is true that we can’t predict future moral knowledge. However.
An intervention by someone from that time period that helps modern whites and doesn’t harm modern blacks would still be seen as better than doing nothing from the point of view of most people. (excluding the woke fringe) Most random interventions selected to help future white people are unlikely to cause significant net harm to blacks.
If their intervention is ensuring that we are wealthy and knowledgeable, and hence more able to do whatever it is we value, then that intervention would take into account progress and moral knowledge.
In reality, you have to choose to do something. When making decisions that effect future generations, either you impose your current values, or you try to give them as much flexible power to allow moral knowledge, or you basically pretend they don’t exist.
This is an intresting new combination of standard mistakes.
Altruistic morality in the total utilitarian sense would recognize that solving everyones problems is equally valuable, including our own. In the current world, practically no humans are going to put themselves lower than everyone else, and most of the best opportunities for aultruism are helping others. But in the hypothetical utopia land, people would solve their own problems, there being no more pressing problems to solve.
Well imagine the ideal end goal, if we develop some magic tech. Everyone living in some sort of utopia. At this point, most of the aultruists say that there is no one in the world who really needs helping, and just enjoy the utopia. But until then, they help.
A aulturist argument for selfishness. You are arguing that selfishness is good because it benefits future people.
If you were actually selfish, you would be arguing that selfishness is good because it makes you happy, and screw those future people, who cares about them.
I also don’t know where you got the idea that selfish=max progress.
Suppose I am a genius fusion researcher. (I’m not) I build fusion reactors so future people will have abundant clean energy. If I was selfish, I would play video games all day.
In the ideal utilitarian hypothetical utopia, who exactly is loosing. If hypothetically everyone had the exact same goal, the well being of humanity as a whole, valuing their own well being at exactly the same level as everyone elses, that would be a 0 difference game, the exact opposite of a 0 sum game.
Some thoughts on Meaning & Modern Job Satisfaction
Jason recently shared a thread on the tension between the objective criteria that make work meaningful increasing while the subjective experience of perceived meaning of work seems to be decreasing. As with most things related to progress, much of this likely stems from a combination of rising expectations and the current emotional climate of pessimism. However, with the help of several conversations, I believe that I’ve identified two elements that may help further explain the gap between objective and subjective experiences.
I was talking about this with a friend — Ashley — who is an upper middle manager at Nike. She’s worked at Nike for 10+ years, with numerous promotions and “career success” by most standards, she enjoys her work, loves the people she works with and has a fairly high degree of autonomy. She’s also an athlete, mostly a runner, who engages in the running community and does Nike sponsored events every year.
Based on all of this — the mastery, autonomy, recognition, human connection and the intersection of her work with her personal life — Ashley should experience a high degree of meaning in her work, but she shared that she experiences almost no meaning. That said, she has no plans to leave and her job has lots of emotional upside including being supportive of her family life.
In digging into why, it largely came down to two things (that she did not enunciate exactly, but I summarize as):
Feeling 100% replaceable — Ashley explained how many people she’s seen come & go over the years and how professionally, its meant very little to Nike. They may be missed personally and there may be some short term pain from a transition, but that, in her words, ‘the whole point of the corporation is so that no individual matters. We are all replaceable — and that’s a feature.’
I can imagine a past where, even a low meaning job by today’s standard, would not have felt so replaceable. Growing up in a (very) small town, I can tell you with confidence that when the pizza place closed, no one starved, but it was MISSED in a way that even the most popular pizza place in a city never could be.
Genuine uncertainty of causing harm vs benefit — While Ashley can repeat the marketing premises (and, yes, Nike has an entire team whose sole purpose is to market internally, to employees), she is genuinely uncertain of whether Nike produces a net benefit on the world. She conceptually embraces the ideals of Nike, but does not trust that Nike acts in a manner that expresses those ideals consistently nor that it is even possible for Nike, within a capitalistic system, to act as a net-positive for society.
Anecdotally, I had a very different conversation with a friend who works at OpenAI that lead to a similar conclusion (s/he wishes to remain anonymous) . While he does not feel replaceable, he is very concerned about how his job has shifted to become significantly less meaningful and more challenging to be fully engaged with as his ethical concerns about the company and general concern about the future have increased in the last 8 months.
To beat a horse dead with anecdotes, my father, who mines garnet, finds enduring and genuine meaning from unlocking resources from their raw state into one that is usable. He feels little uncertainty about the net benefit of his work. Meanwhile many people that I meet in my day-to-day (highly educated / not ever going to be miners) are honestly appalled by the idea of mining, let alone that the mine is within the boundaries of a protected wilderness and generally view his work as detrimental, rather than beneficial (and thus not meaningful).
While both of these are highly subjective criteria, so is an individual’s assessment of meaning. Framing matters. I think that people, and especially younger generations, are weighed down by their genuinely uncertain about how to positively impact the world — and a huge chunk of that is what progress studies is looking to address! It’s also why, in my opinion, the clarity and confidence of the EA worldview was able to spread so rapidly.
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Here’s some research that dances around supporting the ideas, although I wasn’t able to find anything that nailed it in a cursory search:
You’re probably well aware of studies that indicate decreasing trust, which in turn leads to a dearth of confidence in the actions that will lead to their desired result. EG: the well supported idea that there is declining trust in institutions, scientists, and how greenwashing has / is significantly diminishing trust in corporate ethics (as well as scandals like ENRON, near disasters like the 2008 banking crisis, etc)
Here is an HBR thought piece about potential relationships between talent & corporations that is relevant Plus a Quora thread on “Are employees really replaceable?” that I think highlights normal people’s thoughts on it (clue — YES!)
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As one further, bonus anecdote, Ryan Holiday just wrote a piece about completely changing his marketing strategy to align with building a more meaningful life.
This may be a faux pass of the community rules about disagreement, but I don’t think you’ve created anything interesting here. Your “new movement” comes across a lot more like a cult than a concrete way to find meaning.
You describe a crisis of modernity in very vague terms in this piece. You point to things that are bad, gesture that our emotions might not be positive, and suggest that we need to develop a new way of living and finding meaning. To find meaning, you recommend watching a video you made.
This is generally how your video comes across too. You describe the “void” which is a shorthand term for anxieties, concerns, and nervousness about the future, and then say it’s solved by “the light in the void” which is further explained over the next 20 minutes to be, more or less, the meaning of life. You provide a few exercises about how to find this meaning for yourself, but the exercises tend to focus more on making the viewer feel a certain way rather than clear exercises that the viewer can build upon or share with others. It is a vibes-based way of thinking, not a structured one. Furthermore, it is not clear why a new movement is needed for people to find this meaning, rather than, say, to read a self-help book. (For a book that actually helps you to find meaning in your work/life, I recommend “What Color is Your Parachute” personally. It has been in print for 50 years)
To learn more about your movement/idea, you provide a link to your website. This website has links to two youtube videos (including the one discussed earlier) and another which is an hour and thirty minutes. I couldn’t/didn’t get through that one. The website touts the variety of people in the movement (Successful hedge fund managers! Interesting and cool anarchists!), but is light on how the system actually works. The only other thing on the website are two donation buttons, one for a $200 donation and and one for a $2,000 donation to the organization that you’ve started.
I am not going to blatantly assume bad faith here, but if you do not intend for this to be a cult, then you need to make your pitch significantly more clear and cut to the chase of what you’re trying to say.
We never claimed, in any of our comms, that this movement is about a “concrete way to find meaning”. These are your terms, not ours.
In this particular thread, I don’t “suggest that we need to develop a new way of living and finding meaning”. I suggest we need to revaluate what our idea of progress is. It’s very clear in my writing.
“To find meaning, you recommend watching a video you made.” Eh… no? I suggest watching the video for my take on what the reframing of progress could be about (one that maximizes values alignment and meaning). Either you have extremely bad reading comprehension, or you’re intentionally badly mischaracterizating what I’m saying.
“You provide a few exercises about how to find this meaning for yourself, but the exercises tend to focus more on making the viewer feel a certain way rather than clear exercises that the viewer can build upon or share with others”. Yeah, because the video about explaining what meaning is, not a manual. We actually have a lot of techniques, even a course on it (!), but since the video isn’t about finding meaning, that’s not what I’m highlighting.
“It is a vibes-based way of thinking, not a structured one” — Look, it’s fine if you don’t the will or capacity to get through the 1.30h lecture, but then simply you don’t get to critizice that this is a “vibes based” way of thinking. The video you watched is the only “vibey” thing that we have, everything else is extremely robust.
“The website touts the variety of people in the movement (Successful hedge fund managers! Interesting and cool anarchists!”..… Eh, what? This is my response to a comment above about how our notion of meaning is broad, not particular. Again, either you have very limited comprehension, or there’s actually bad faith in your blunt mischarachterization.
The only thing you’re right is that yes, our website doesn’t have as much clear information as we’d like, but doing this well takes a lot of work, and we only launched a month and a half ago (!) (most startups have equally simple websites during their first year). So yes, we’re working on it, but we’re not quite there yet. My deepest apologies. If you want more information though, we have enough information to keep you busy for at least a week (even though, given you couldn’t get through the video lecture which is the summarized version of this, it’s unsure whether you’d be able to engage with this properly):
We have Design School that teaches how to get concrete around meaning and design for it https://www.sfsd.io/ . So far, we’ve trained over 300 students across 80 organizations (including Apple, Facebook, Khan Academy, etc). The lecture you didn’t watch is the best intro to our design method, and it’s extremely structured thinking. You can even apply for the course if you want to learn how to get concrete about meaning.
We also have a full, freely accessible textbook on values and meaning-centric design. There’s a lot of free exercises you can do yourself and share with your friends https://textbook.sfsd.io/
You can read about our academic background and bibliography here https://www.notion.so/humsys/Related-Academic-Work-c933408fd8fc44c3acd42d6ccb827461?pvs=4
You can read about our theory of change here https://www.notion.so/humsys/Theory-of-Change-FAQ-866c7b7cdd24420fabd8ca357f076d56?pvs=4
You can read about the research groups that we’re coordinating https://www.notion.so/humsys/Research-We-ll-Coordinate-2425704cfc354ed18af78e237f0f2e5d?pvs=4
You can read our paper on values and meaning (and how they differ from the economic notion of “preferences” https://github.com/jxe/vpm/blob/master/vpm.pdf)
Finally, this is much much more that we’re doing, but not all of it is public (like is the case with a lot of movements or companies). We have alignment researchers at major labs (OpenAI, Anthropic, DeepMind etc) working with our notion of meaning. We have a working prototype of a GPT based chatbot that assists you get clear on your meaning (which will be launched later this year). We have a unique AI alignment strategy (some of it outlined in our ML research group). We have a dedicated working group working on meaning aligned economic policy (supported by some known names from the progress community too). Partnerships with highly strategic agents. Collaborations with acclaimed artists. Etc Etc.
We’ll slowly publicly announce more of this over the course of this year, so you can just stay tuned to see whether I’m bullshitting or not. Wanna bet ;)?
I think I’m probably just not the target audience for your project, so I didn’t “get it”. I apologize for calling your stuff a cult and interpreting it through that lens.
A lot of what I was saying was an attempt to boil down your points to get to the meat of what the project is trying to say, but perhaps that kinda defeats the purpose of the artistic aspect of it. While I could argue about the numbered responses, or give suggestions on how to streamline the ideas you’re proposing, if the point is in large part artistic I see how that’s barking up the wrong tree.
While I don’t think this is for me, I apologize again for my critical tone and for calling it a cult. Best of luck.
I wrote about Class 1 / Class 2 in the context of blockchain for my blog today and wanted to share my updated thoughts after spending a few days thinking.
I think fundamentally, Class 2 problems is just a rephrasing of tragedy of the commons issues. Rephrasing is useful because it gives us a new perspective to approach an issue.
In the piece, I suggest that we can predict Class 2 problems by thinking about the specific features of the technology, eg blockchain, which motivate entrepreneurs to solve the Class 1 problems, and thinking about how those features could be bad when overdone (classic market failure ideas of over supply)
Rather than coming up with a checklist of things to look out for, which we might never complete, I think using the lens of ‘what persuades entrepreneurs to solve the Class 1 problems, and how could this be bad’ gives a useful way to approach Class 2 safety topics. It also lets us make the argument that ‘these Class 2 problems are only here because the technology was so good that we fixed all the Class 1 problems, so let’s face them head on, rather than banning the technology (or similar)’
My blog post here
We will be hosted on Saturday March 25 at 2:00 pm in a room of the New York Public Library on 5th Ave and 42nd.
In a previous post I commented that before we deal with spaceships, we need a complete circular and almost self replicating human economy:
https://progressforum.org/posts/62XwqubkcAKNG6Wqf/space-colonization-and-the-closed-material-economy
This is the hardest problem
Hello Arturo, I loved your article, and I agree, there is a lot more to space colonization than rockets. I was researching NASA’s two training stations (by the way, if anyone has a Masters in STEM, you can apply to live on one of the practice stations) https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/moon-mars/a37349989/nasa-mars-colony-simulation/ and I think the main solutions to the problem of an isolated community on Mars would be:
1. 3d printing/CNC cutting with multiple materials
2. hydroponic systems using GMO plants and fish
3. automated construction systems with local materials where possible.
I wonder if concrete is possible with Mars rock, or what kinds of minerals we’ll be able to take advantage of. If the value of Mars material outweighs the cost of sending ships back and forth, it won’t really be a closed system anymore.
And if people live on the moon, or in low-orbit stations, as well as Earth, there will be new markets for trade and manufacturing.
If you take a peak at some of my links to NASA’s website, they do list a number of phenomenal projects on material science, energy capture/creation, plus terraforming tech. Still, without a feasible fuel source, it’s hard to imagine actually making it to Mars let alone outside our solar system one day.
That being said, what have you heard about fusion propulsion and what are your thoughts?
If fussion propulsion is possible, probably fussion would be available for energy production on Earth, and that would imply “energy too cheap to measure”. The kind of economy under that regime would extremely different from ours. Under that conditions, for example, materials would be extremely easy to obtain from Earth (we could profitably mine minerals with far lower ore grades than we can now).
I think that if we ever reach the “energy too cheap to measure” economic regime, for example, extiction risk would be far lower than now. But we all know that Brazil is the country of the future, and allways will be, and that nuclear fussion will allways be 30 years in the future either… I hope I am wrong in both :-)
When it comes to the philosophy of space technology, the effects of it on earth shouldn’t be undercounted. Cheap satellites have a lot of implications for privacy when every spot on earth can be surveilled 24⁄7.
Orbital bombardment is a powerful weapon with a strength comparable to nuclear weapons and in cases like attacking underground bunkers even more powerful. At the same time, the existing fears of radiation don’t exist for orbital bombardment. It’s important to think well about how to handle the implications of powerful technology in orbit.
SpaceX tanker ships might be powerful enough to do serious damage and yet they don’t have the safety against cyber attacks that military weapons usually had in the past. What happens if a SpaceX tanker crashes in the White House, removing it completely from the map and nobody really knows why it happened?
Thanks Christian, what makes you think their cyber-security is subpar?
Generally, the cyber-security of most systems is subpar. The military goes to extraordinary lengths to make its systems secure.
Elon Musk’s philosophy of building things includes pushing engineers to work as fast as possible to make progress. That’s helpful for getting to orbit as fast as possible but it’s not helpful for having a system that lacks zero-day vulnerabilities.
I understand what you’re saying. It seems like encryption is the answer to that problem, but I don’t pretend to understand how that works, or how to implement it. I do understand that regular software updates can mitigate security threats.
I agree, Musk drives people to the edge of what’s possible. In a business as cut-throat as his, one must race other companies for the rights to very few jobs. SpaceX is essentially breaking ground just ahead of their competition. I have no doubt that the reason they maintain their slim advantage is because they are working ungodly amounts and demanding more of themselves everyday. I also have no doubt that anyone who can’t take the heat would have a dozen other options to choose from.
I can’t guarantee the culture at Boeing or Blue Horizon is any different tho...
Software updates give you protection against known attacks but not against zero-day attacks.
Jeff Bezos divorced largely because zero day attacks exist. He Saudi’s hacked his phone by having access to zero days they brought and blackmailed him and he didn’t do what they asked so they released data about his affair.
The US famously had the data about all their personal with security clearances hacked by the Chinese.
Boeing seems to have a quite bureaucratic culture. Given that it’s a defense contractor, I would expect that it has processes where it pays more attention to cyber security.
Blue Horizon is likely also not good at cyber security because not being good at it is the default for companies.
It would be interesting to understand more about the effects of those laws. Being able to give all the wealth to a single son makes it easier to invest all the wealth in a single commercial enterprise because that enterprise doesn’t have to be broken up.
Unfortunately the writer failed to elaborate, and I haven’t got around to looking it up further yet.
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Thanks J,
I will incorporate those into the medium article, https://medium.com/@kassandra-dick/philosophy-in-space-57809bac9e75, though I think I’ve covered the second one fairly with the discussion of what kinds of minds are really capable of being space pioneers. I like the way you say it, “they will not be an escape hatch for the wealthy at all”
Just a sense of why I wrote this article, it will be part of a collection of articles about technology pertaining to the brain and consciousness (all forms of BCI and virtual-reality), and technology mimicking the brain and consciousness (AI and computational models about consciousness). But really all of this is in terms of progress and how all this is possible.
Hello, I’m Kassandra Dick, a freelance writer from Canada. Progress is the only viable option for humanity and I’m all about surviving and thriving. I love the work and writings of Peter H. Diamandis and Steven Kotler, as well as Yaron Brook, Ayn Rand, Alex Epstein and David Eagleman. You can find my work and my poetry here: https://kassandra-dick.medium.com/
I’m Lev, at least that’s what I go by online. Most of my interests that I will be writing about have to do with AI, consciousness, brain technology, and space travel. I care about these things in terms of progress, and I want to promote the philosophical grounding that progress requires.
Impressive application Tony, I admire your commitment to human progress and look forward to seeing what you will achieve!
Sounds interesting, thanks for announcing this here!
I hope we get more attempts to bridge economics research and the broader public, like this and New Things Under the Sun.
Congrats, Tony!
Hello everyone, I am Isaac, a CompE and math double major at UMBC. I am interested in working on medical devices and am interested in starting a for-profit startup. This startup would hopefully work on both direct impact and allow money for donations (see here).
I am also considering a PhD or Masters in Biomedical engineering, computer engineering, or electrical engineering.
Thanks Thomas! There is a community section of this forum where you can create local groups and meetups / other events. Please post there and let me know, I’ll help spread the word.
I’m added to the NYC area, hoping more join soon!
What EU regulations that aren’t really justified in terms of providing safety are most responsible for holding back innovation?
Your work seems like a spiritual successor to Simon’s Ultimate Resource, sounding some of the same themes for a new generation. What are the biggest or most interesting updates since Ultimate Resource was published? And/or what did you find in your research for the book that surprised you?
I think what surprised me the most was how expensive things used to be. Bicycles have become 22 times more abundant today compared to 1910. In 1955 Bill Haley and the Comets’ ‘Rock Around the Clock,’ sold 3 million singles at 65 cents each. Unskilled workers at the time were earning around 97 cents an hour. This would put the time price of a song at 40 minutes. Today a student can get access to 90 million songs for $5.99 a month. Unskilled workers are earning around $14.53 an hour, so the time price is around 25 minutes. In 1955 it was 40 minutes for one song versus 25 minutes for 10,800 today (assuming 4 minutes per song and continuous streaming).
This abundance has occurred at the same time population is increasing. Once you start thinking is time instead of money, you will be astonished at the abundance we enjoy today relative to our parents and grandparents.
I have heard it claimed that Julian Simon got a bit lucky in his bet with Paul Ehrlich, and that if a different basket of metals or other commodities had been chosen, he might have lost. Is that true? What do we make of that?
Julian Simon was lucky because human population has been lucky for the last 150 years. And taking a long perspective is what is necessary if you really want to discover the underlying trend versus short-run market fluctuations. (You can always find a 10-year period to show prices going up or down.)
To understand what’s happening, we looked that the time prices of the Simon-Ehrlich five metal basket bet (copper, chromium, nickel, tin, and tungsten) from 1900 to 2018. For blue-collar workers the average time price fell by 89.2 percent. This means that for the time required to earn the money to buy one unit in 1900, you would get 9.28 units in 2018. These non-renewable metals have become 828 percent abundant. (Page 190)
During this same period, U.S. population increased by 330.3 percent. Every one percent increase in population corresponded to a 3.22 percent increase in personal resource abundance. Measured at the population level, these five metals became 3,884 percent more abundant. (Page 229)
Take a look at any basic commodity and there is a good chance that over the last 40-50 years it has become much more abundant. The only exceptions seem to be those products that are influenced by government regulations and subsidies like health care and education.
We are grateful that Julian Simon had the courage to enter into this bet. He could have lost big time. But he had done his research and had a theory to explain the evidence. More people make life much more abundant. Simon won $576.07, but humanity has enjoyed trillions in new value over the last 150 years created by people that have the freedom to innovate.
I
Dear J,
Please email me at mtupy@cato.org. We welcome new contributors with open arms.
Marian
I have read in Where Good Ideas Come From by Steven Johnson that innovation can be modelled by a graph where create a vertex on the graph with edges on the used technologies that are combined. In The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Thomas Kuhn develops paradigms where they are built upon with normal science and new paradigms are created by disproving an assumption and building a new paradigm. The Innovators Dilemma by Clayton Christenson has a similar idea where revolutionary technologies start out as lower quality and build up over time while competitors invest in the best short term innovation (iterative technology).
What sort of mathematical /logical model do you use for modeling innovation?
These are great books. All make important contributions to how we think about lifting one another out of poverty.
Although we don’t offer an explicit model for innovation, partly due to the fact that innovation always comes as a surprise and you can’t model surprises (otherwise they wouldn’t be surprises), we do suggest that abundance is a function of population and the freedom to innovate.
Our work is informed by George Gilder. He offers three propositions: wealth is knowledge, growth is learning, and money is time. From these propositions we can derive a theorem: The growth in knowledge can be measured with time. Our analytical framework operationalizes this theorem.
Wealth is knowledge: As Thomas Sowell notes, “The cavemen had the same natural resources at their disposal as we have today, and the difference between their standard of living and ours is a difference between the knowledge they could bring to bear on those resources and the knowledge used today.” We convert atoms to resources when we add knowledge to them. Economics is not about atoms, economics is about the growth of knowledge–how it is discovered, created, and shared. Unlike material atoms that are divided when they’re shared, knowledge is multiplied when it is shared and grows exponentially when it is consumed.
Growth is Learning: Hayek recognized that knowledge is distributed in tiny bits spread across billions of people. Organizations seeking to create value coordinate the accumulation of this knowledge into products and services. These products and services must then be tested in free markets that are also creating new knowledge in the form of prices and valuations. We grow by discovering valuable new knowledge and then sharing it with others in organizations and markets.
Money is Time: We buy things with money, but we pay for them with time. This means there are two prices: money prices and time prices. A time price is simply the money price divided by hourly income. We express money prices in dollars and cents and time prices in hours and minutes. If you are earning $20 and hour and a pizza is $15, the time price would be 45 minutes. Innovation shows up in both lower prices and higher incomes. As long as incomes are increasing at a faster rate than money prices, the time price will be decreasing. If the time price of a pizza falls by 50 percent, you can now get two for the time it took to earn one yesterday. Your pizza abundance has increased by 100 percent. It is the change in time prices over time that indicates the growth in knowledge. Time prices are the true prices we pay and a much more objective way to measure our standards of living. Think in time, and the world will reveal superabundance and the potential value of all human beings contributing to innovation.
I want one, if any remain! DM sent.
Love seeing the experimentation in research models, as well as nanotech projects specifically! I was very excited to see the announcement, and will be looking forward to seeing what you come up with. I’m late to the party, but a couple of questions if you get to them:
I’m guessing the work most of your projects will be doing will (if successful) generate some patent output. Is that correct, and if so do you have a concrete plan for those?
You mentioned experimenting with new ways of managing research. Do you have ideas for management experiments you’re excited to try, or is that primarily in attempting a private ARPA-style project (which is certainly a huge project on its own!)?
P.S. -- Just realized this morning that you’re the same Ben Reinhardt I went to high school with for two trimesters (before I got mono and fell off the face of the earth). Small world—wish I’d gotten to know you better then! Great to see you working on such cool stuff!
Thanks, I appreciate the pushback. Let me push back in turn:
Water in streams can’t be counted on to be clean, which is why we have water filtration plants. Also it often isn’t found where we want it, and so we have to transport it to our homes, farms, etc.
Berries have to be collected, and wild sources quickly run out. We also have to identify which berries are safe to eat. And in general all plants have evolved through human selection to be more productive, tastier, etc.
Air… is pretty usable as is, true.
I suppose there might be a very small number of resources we could consider almost fully natural. Air perhaps. Gravity? But we generally don’t think of these things as “resources” at all.
Appreciate the discussion very much, and I hate to be academic and persnickety because reading your writing in this space is invaluable.
Agree on gravity, seems like some out of the box thinking. Air, temperature, and atmospheric pressure might be the only other fully natural resources. Anything which appears in our environment without needing to be altered.
While there are a few natural resources I think we rightly focus on the unnatural ones because spending our attention in those areas is far more fruitful.
What are some research areas you think are important but wish someone else would work on?
Besides institutions for science, what other types of organizations do you think the world needs?
When you succeed tremendously with Speculative Technologies what are the most exciting changes a normal person just living their lives will see?
How will we experience the world differently in 2051? What will our homes look like? Our daily experience of work and going places? Our leisure activities? … or anything else that will be enabled by the new materials and technologies that are beyond the cutting edge now.
Or, put differently, why should people far outside the progress and tech communities be excited about this work?
I’m also very curious on what we, as a progress community, can contribute to the telling of more good, inspiring stories. If you have thoughts, please comment or get in touch: heike@therootsofprogress.org.
When I read this I felt a need to shout “YES!!” to all of this. In the past couple of weeks, as I’ve talked to people in the broader progress studies community I heard a lot of personal stories, and many of them included either influential stories (often Science Fiction books, but sometimes also historical tales of human ingenuity and invention or movies) or experiences in spaces that made possibilities real (like Disney Epcot or even museums with inspirational themes).
I’d love to hear from people in this community how these types of experiences played into their journey of being interested in scientific, industrial, technological, and human progress.
The inventor of the cell phone was inspired by the TOS communicator. There’s a lot of examples of this in engineering, I think.
I think you hit the mark with a lot of us having an underlying belief in progress independent of progress studies, and that a lot of that excitement/belief was inspired by media or culture. When I worked in sales, one of the team mottos we had was that people make decisions with emotions first, and then rationalize them later. Regardless of whether that’s how people “should” make decisions, I think it’s reasonably accurate. Creating art and media that celebrates progress, and having audiences have an emotional reaction to that media, is a great first step in getting more people invested in creating real-world progress. Disney and the other World’s Fair promoters certainly understood this, and on some level, I think everybody who pines for a Mid-Century World’s Fair does too.
Adam Ozimek had a twitter thread about a year ago where people pitched ideas for “progress studies” television shows—I wonder if anything happened to that. I stand by my pitch for a campy, positive, and fun 1632 mini-series.
Will Speculative Technologies offer internships this summer? If so, will they be limited to purely STEM students or is there space for generalist interns within your exciting organisation?
(Found out about SpecTech from Matt Clifford of ARIA/Entrepreneur First)
Regardless, best of luck.
Do you think there is anyone you left out in this analysis?
What is the roadmap, as far as we can see it, to the kind of nanotech envisioned in J. Storrs Hall’s books (Where Is My Flying Car? and earlier Nanofuture)? What are the big unsolved problems? What are the most promising approaches or near-term goals?
I think the problem is that we don’t have a clear roadmap—if we did it would be much easier to execute on it. In the limit, what Hall (and Drexler before him) describes is physically possible but transients matter and nobody has done a great job describing the intermediate technologies.
Throat clearing aside, here are some of my personal hunches (I don’t think there are any clear consensuses):
Use a combination of our existing tools for manipulating matter with nanoscale precision to start building multi-component and approach nanoscale systems that we can interface with from the macroscale: lithography, DNA origami, proteins, molecular machines. [Dropping a placeholder to include a link to Drexlers paper from the 90s combining proteins and AFM tips, and Tuberfelds work on DNA origami 3D printers]
Use these systems to at first start modifying macroscale objects: maybe making extremely precise edges to turbine blades, or something that can’t be done any other way
Eventually expand to making things full cloth with them, with increasing scope and precision.
There are so many big unsolved problems! Frankly I think the biggest ones are some combination of experiments taking a long time to do and then measure what happened and then trust those measurements, the difficulty of simulating what will happen in lieu of experiments, both of which lead to extreme difficulty building any sort of intuition for the affordances of nanoscale systems, which makes it hard for people to build systems. That’s a rather abstract answer, but beyond “creating covalent bonds exactly where we want them” I’m not even sure we know what the right concrete unsolved problems are.
Two approaches I’m personally excited about:
Using something like DNA origami to template nanoscale building blocks (that could be proteins or other things) -- you can get atomic precision on very small “pieces” and then if you can put those pieces together in a deterministic way, you could get larger pieces with the same precision. If you could then functionalize those pieces, you could very ambitiously have a nanoscale “factory” that does several steps of a reaction or something similar. (I am talking my own book to some extent here: we’re running a program to tackle this approach at Spectech)
Interfacing silicon and proteins. Photolithography is great at going from 100 m to 10−8 m and proteins are a great way of going from 10−10 to 10−8 m. By bridging the two we could potentially have something that enables you to directly interface with single atoms via a keyboard at scale.
Is the new industrial policy for semiconductor manufacturing going to result in new materials and manufacturing innovations, or is it mainly about bringing existing know-how to US from Asia? Will it spur any research, or result mainly in execution of known industry methods?
Will the industrial policy jobs be of interest to the types of people you would like to bring into private ARPA, or will it only create non-R&D jobs?
How would you allocate $1-10m personally towards maximising progress? Would a FRO or PARPA be the right choice over say angel investing in startups or funding smaller research projects?
After a lot of research, I think that one of the most effective ways of allocating order one-$100M towards progress is to enable materials and manufacturing technology research that could shift paradigms but doesn’t have a home in current institutions. Those conclusions come from a couple of observations:
A ton of progress is driven by the second order effects of technologies: haber bosch, intended to remove german dependence on south american guano contributed a huge amount to solving overpopulation, etc.
The technologies that most often have those second order effects are how we make things and the stuff we make those things from (ie. materials and manufacturing)
These technologies require systems research, which in turn needs more coordination than academic incentives provide but is still too uncertain for startups.
Unsurprisingly, that’s the strategy we’re pursuing at Speculative Technologies.
That being said, I’m not a fan of some sort of global prioritization of funding. While in practice everybody must make it, I think that the best thing for one person to spend towards might not be the same as for another person.
I do think on the margin additional money towards startups or small projects (<$100k) isn’t as helpful as pooling money together with other people to enable a discretely larger or longer project. That could take the form of giving one person ~10 years of guaranteed funding, enabling a team of ~5 people over two or three years, or building a serious piece of infrastructure for a group of weirdos.
which types of new materials / manufacturing technologies will have the most economic impact ? what are you most excited about being built with these new materials / technologies ?
Is Speculative Technologies part of the upstream process of creating alternatives to plastics? (alternatives that don’t have the “persistent pollutant” or microplastic/nanoplastic decomposition problems)
What startup opportunities do you think exist now in the manufacturing sector in the United States?
How much pressure is currently being applied to Congress to break some of the bottlenecks on energy abundance? How much more is needed?
Not an expert, but as far as I can tell, nowhere near enough! There’s some rumbling about making it easier to build nuclear and folks like Jamie Beard and Eli Dourado are doing admirable work to make it easier to drill geothermal, but for the most part people don’t even think seriously about the counterfactual that we could have orders of magnitude more energy and what that would unlock.
What’s your theory of management going in to Speculative Technologies?
What advances in material science would have to occur for it to be as exciting to investors and average people as software? i.e. is the world of bits going to remain the dominant arena of novel creations for the next century?
If by “investors” you mean venture capitalists, I’m not sure that material science will ever be as exciting as software—the margins on software are too high and the timescales are so short. Maybe if someone cracked truly automated generative materials.
But there are other kinds of investors—I could imagine a number of valuable companies eventually being built around some general-purpose materials platforms: if someone figured out how to make steel with truly tunable properties, hierarchical materials, extremely efficient thermoelectrics, arbitrarily long carbon nanotubes, etc.
If you forced me begrudgingly to make generalizations about average people, I’d point to the fact that people get excited when advances touch their lives: you could imagine everything from drastically cheaper electricity from room temperature superconductors, self-cleaning surfaces, items made from wood with drastically different properties …
I resonate with this. The issue is that culture is particular, but the type of progress the progress studies is generally committed to is civilizational (tech and institutions) not cultural (art and meaning). A community dedicated to progress would instantly become significantly more narrow if it committed to some particular vision of what is valuable and meaningful. While I am fairly committed to a particular vision of how to integrate civilization and culture to create a meaningful life, I wouldn’t want the Progress Forum to commit to a particular view of, say, family values or the status of rituals in society.
Your video is still a broad tent view of meaning. Yet, I’d like to hear how one can actually engage in the project you describe without becoming partisan some particular view of what makes a meaningful life.
Actually, you can’t really separate cultural progress from civilizational progress. The modern world didn’t just come about because of the industrial revolution, but also because the set of new ideas about what it means to be an individual and live in society that liberalism promoted. In fact, it was this set ideas what catalyzed the industrial revolution, rather than material or technological factors like geography or access to capital.
https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/review-bourgeois-equality-how-ideas-not-capital-or-institutions-enriched-world-deirdre
And, our project is super focused on technological, scientific and institutional progress. We are very pro-tech and markets. But we think that the way to unlock this type of progress is through redesigning tech and institutions around meaning:
https://twitter.com/ellie__hain/status/1632823967734984706?s=20
In regards about culture and meaning being particular, that is also not quite the case. Liberalism itself is proof that you can have a dominant cultural system that is not affiliated to any particular way of life (and yes, it’s now failing, but it’s failing for another set of reasons).
In fact, most of the people engaging in our project have very different views of what it means to live a good life! In our core team of five, we have a very conservative orthodox jew living in Jerusalem, and a poly, queer, social justice political philosopher from the Bay Area — the rest of us are all somewhere in between.
And the people who are resonating with our message are also as equally varied! We have religious leaders and anarchists, rave organizers and hedge fund managers, radical environmentalists and tech accelerationists, midwives and alignment researchers. To be honest, even I have been surprised at the diversity of the people who have been writing us!
A while ago there was a kickstarter project called Origami Bag. They basically have a material that has for most purposes a smooth purpose but at the same time behaves like velcro.
While the product itself is not that interesting the material itself seems interesting. Naively, I would expect that it would find applications in which velcro is currently used like shoes because it seems much nicer.
To me, there’s an open question of why a new material like this didn’t find adoption. The fact that it didn’t seems also to have applications that might be hard for other new materials to find adoption. Do you have an idea here?
How likely is it that commercial products will be manufactured in the next one or two decades in space, making use of the zero-G environment?
Not an expert but I suspect it’s unlikely that commercial products will be manufactured in space beyond expensive novelty items (do theraputics count as commercial?)
Reason being that commercial usually implies large scale, which I suspect will be limited in things in space that are going to come to earth.
Predicting the future is hard—I hope I’m wrong!
Excellent description of how stories play a critical role. I’m interested in whether the same sorts of stories could be updated and played again, or whether it has just become harder to share these kinds of stories. In the UK, in 1951, there was the Festival of Britain, which was similar to other events of the time: showing how the future could be great. It was at the newly built Southbank Centre. Such events require lots of public sector funding and, particularly to hold frequently, bi-partisan commitment. It seems like this is a prerequisite for national-level storytelling? Today, we have global ExPos, but they are every five years and garner little attention (Dubai 2020, Japan 2025). I would be curious to know what people think it takes to tell these stories. Good piece; really enjoyed reading & have shared with my team (who are planning an Expo just like this!)
Is additive manufacturing, or 3D printing using different materials / composites, a viable alternative to manufacturing processes today? Or will the cost curve & material integrity never be as good when compared to high volume standardized manufacturing?
I suspect that for situations where you want millions of the exact same thing, 3D printing will never replace high volume standardized manufacturing.
However, you could imagine a world where additive manufacturing does become much cheaper and faster to the point where many more things are made with subtle customizations, or made on premise, etc. New paradigms almost never replace the old thing directly, but take over by changing the way things are done and measured.
Industry 4.0 is a popular marketing slogan for, broadly, the future of manufacturing. What’s your take on the harder science / tech underpinning this positioning? Anything you’re particularly excited about?
What is the outlook for graphene? I saw that there is this new process called flash graphene, but don’t know what to make of it.
What are your 3 favorite things that are coming soon in materials?
In no particular order (and for flexible definitions of “coming” and “soon”—things always take longer than we expect and aren’t inevitable):
Plastics made from atmospheric carbon (if Casey Handmer et al are right about cratering solar panel prices)
I think? Varda is making fiber optic materials in space.
The science things we can learn from messing around with graphene (not sure it will make a useful product anytime soon)
(Maybe) Ceramic airplane engines
There are obvious avenues for progress in our society: more income security, less working hours, ideally some degree of population de-concentration. Addionally, relatively poor countries still have a large room for economic improvement, and political and military risks are un un-acceptably large.
On the other hand, your criticism of the “rockets and flying cars” progress ideal looks spot on to me.
Why? I like being in a concentrated city. I like having a lot of interesting people near me.
Because cities are sitting ducks for nuclear weapons. We don’t know if nuclear winter is real, but in case it were not, nuclear war would be survivable if human population and industry were spread.
When it comes to progress I would look for a world where reducing the damage done by nuclear weapons is not the prime consideration.
It is obviously a critical consideration; beyond that, I would say that the best countries in the world are those with a long history of descentralization and a relatively less hierarchical urban structure: Switzerland, Germany and the United States. It makes life cheaper, allows people to live in bigger houses, the enviorment is better… Urbanization was a necessary evil and a necessary risk. Fortunately, less neccesary now.
I would prefer if progress goes in a way that decreases the chance of nuclear war instead of minimizing its chance.
I like living in a big city. I like being close to other interesting people. I’d prefer it if even more interesting people would live in a short distance.
Hi Jason, Matt is certainly one the substackers I sometimes most regret not having a sub to!
Thanks Sam, this is a great list.
A few more, although you may have intended some of them to be grouped together with one of the other entries.
Can we cure mental health illnesses like depression, anxiety disorders, and PTSD?
Can we create an actually good pain medication that cures chronic and/or acute pain with few or no side effects?
Can we build monitoring and imaging technology that allows us to cheaply track every process occurring in our body, enhancing early detection of disease, improving diagnosis accuracy, and informing treatments?
Hi, I’m happy to provide some additional comment later (traveling at the moment) but copy/pasting with light edits the text of an email I wrote in 2020 on this topic. Context: I work on charter cities.
“Based on our conversations with [Native American political economy scholar], the big problem is that while on paper it looks like the tribes might have some degree of autonomy or freedom, they have virtually none in practice.
The property rights on reservations are structured in such a way that the federal government has to be involved in virtually everything. Even down to simple property improvements, like if you wanted to build a pool or a shed on your property, you need federal involvement because the land is held in trust by the federal government because court precedent ruled that Native Americans are technically wards of the state.
There’s also just a lot of variance in the quality of tribal governments… a handful are reportedly run well but a lot more are essentially the stationary bandit. A lot of businesses reportedly do not trust tribal judicial systems… Walmart will set up just outside the Navajo reservation but not inside it, for example.
And then there’s also the fact that the tribes want to keep as much of their remaining land in native hands as possible, essentially that they wouldn’t want a whole bunch of white people showing up and taking over things.
And then one final major obstacle is that most reservations are in the middle of nowhere and are home to less than 10,000 people total. And even in large reservations like the Navajo, biggest town is at most 10,000 people. So it’s hard to get a critical mass of people, and you’re far from any useful infrastructure like an airport.”
I know that the tribes have no freedom now; you could not do anything like a charter city without changing the Federal laws. The laws need to be changed.
Some places would refuse to sell land to outsiders, but some would. The tribal governments should be able to, without Federal oversight, choose to either manage land communally, or assign property rights to individuals.
I’m not intimately familiar with how the law treats Canadian tribes, but you might find this project (Senakw) being developed by the Squamish Nation in Vancouver interesting. In short, they’re building a new development adjacent to Vancouver and because they’re a tribe are exempt from all the usual planning and zoning regualtions.
Interesting. Have you heard of the Catawba Digital Economic Zone? It’s basically this specifically for crypto projects.
Are you familiar with the charter cities movement?
Yes to both questions. This is what I see as the most politically feasible way to make a charter city with actual regulatory independence happen in the USA.
Based mostly on reading Matt Levine, I suspect that in practice, if the SEC wanted to go after a business registered in the CDEZ, they would.
What does the economics of innovation have to say about a late adopter/slow adopter industry like Construction, where productivity has been flat at best for four decades, and not just in the USA? If Construction is somewhere around 6% of GNP, you’d think the issue would get more attention.
A really good research agenda needs to have two features: it should be an important problem, and you need an angle of attack on it. In the case of the economics of innovation, I think that biases the field towards studying sectors where there is readily available data, whether those are patents, granular data on productivity, approved drugs, or whatever. A lot of low-growth sectors—education, construction, government—are maybe areas where high quality data isn’t as readily available. Or in some cases, innovation-relevant data might actually exist, but a critical mass of scholars don’t understand it, which makes it hard to study and get good feedback on your work.
That said, there is some work on this. Personally, I’m excited to look into this handbook that examines the pace of entrepreneurship and innovation across a bunch of different sectors. Also check out Brian Potter on the construction industry specifically!
thx—I’m aware of Brian’s work, will check out the handbook.
How should one create institutions which drive innovation activities and create technologies improving welfare ? Is Venture Capital model of investment a good model to support innovation?
Different kinds of institutions are good at different kinds of things, and you ideally want a portfolio of different institutions.
Academic research is good at promoting non-commercial exploratory research that hews close enough to the community of experts to take advantage of critical feedback and allow for people to build on top of each other’s ideas (classic article here)
Venture capital is good at innovation that is very valuable if it works, very uncertain if it will work, but where it is possible to learn relatively easily if an idea will work. (classic article here)
Incumbent firms are probably pretty good at incremental improvement of their technologies, provided they face a bit of competition (citation needed!)
Large corporate science labs are good at projects that require a lot of resources, a longer time horizon, and a focus on integrating disparate results into a coherent package (classic article here)
There are probably other institutional arrangements better suited to different kinds of innovation too; most of these institutional arrangements are not that old, as institutions go! I think, for example, that there are probably ways to improve the organization of academic research. And the private sector has to some extent retreated from basic science, and we may need new institutions to fulfill the kind of role they used to do.
Actually, this essay on the topic is great and actionable: support Ben’s Speculative Technologies project!
If you were given a million dollar grant, which question in innovation policy would you want to answer and what might that dataset look like?
I will cheat and list two ideas, plus one irrelevant one.
First, let’s start with some large-scale descriptive statistics of practices!
How do different labs organize and manage their staff?
How do different editors manage their journal and peer review process?
How do different grant reviewers pick grants?
The goal is to see if there are obvious best practices; what kinds of stuff is correlated with good outcomes? This would be some kind of large-scale survey.
Second, I’ve always wanted to know more about the political economy of R&D. How do governments decide how much to spend on R&D? I’m not sure the best way to study this though.
Third, my dream research project, after we have sorted out the more important stuff, is to use the decadal Sight and Sound Greatest Movies of All Time poll to study how people’s perception of artistic greatness changes over time. Do people change their minds? Or is it all about new (younger) critics embracing newer films?
What do you think about the question of “ideas getting harder to find”? What do you think of the discussion of this topic in the progress community—is there something people are misunderstanding or getting wrong about the issue?
I think three different things might be true:
Scientific and technological progress is getting harder
But the pace of progress is steady because we try harder
Nostalgia bias, the esoteric nature of modern advances, and general human crankiness makes people falsely believe the rate of progress is slowing more than it actually is
I’m pretty confident about #1 and #3, less sure about #2. We certainly are trying harder, but maybe not enough to keep the overall rate of progress steady. I go back and forth on this, but at least think the case for a slowing rate of progress is not nearly as strong as the case for #1.
Why is #1 true? I think it’s a combination of things. To a large degree, this just seems to be an inevitable feature of advancing knowledge; the burden of knowledge gets heavy, and maybe we also pluck some of the low hanging fruit. But a non-negligible part of the slowdown is probably due to the way we organize and conduct R&D. Improving that would have really high benefits, even if we’re probably not going to go back to the era when a handful of gentleman scientists could make giant advances.
What are the implications of your work for competition policy and big tech regulation?
Afraid the implications are limited for the time being. Competition policy and innovation is a big and active research area, and one that I haven’t dug into yet. It’s too big a topic for one article.
What evidence-based advice would you give to a corporate CEO to increase innovation in her company?
Are there specific management practices, elements of corporate (not national) culture, or management behaviors that promote innovation? Can we apply insights from research on funding organizations (DARPA, NIH) to for-profit organizations? Are there robust principles (e.g., tolerate short-term failure, reward long-term success) that should apply in a corporate setting?
What are your favorite journal articles, working papers, or books on corporate innovation? Who is doing good research on this topic?
Probably the most concrete topic I’ve written the most about is the geographic distribution of an R&D workforce. I think one of my main takeaways is to not assume that everyone working together in the same building is as good as it gets, in terms of innovation, though it depends on the industry. Reasons to consider a more distributed workforce:
You can hire people who are a better fit for a specific role if you are set up for a remote workforce
A distributed workforce is exposed to a greater diversity of information environments
Modern communication technology makes it feasible to collaborate effectively at a distance, so that in person communication is no longer so crucial
That said, a distributed workforce offers its own challenges. You have to be more intentional about facilitating random meetings among different parts of the org for one, or you risk excessive siloing. And I think occasional in-person meetups are also important.
If you think nothing matters as much as getting the right people, then this is all the more important!
Some of my favorite papers on corporate innovation is the works of Ashish Arora and his colleagues, who are actively working on this stuff.
Great post. I really appreciated your comparison of the “more is better attitude” regarding knowledge with the “more is better attitude” regarding food.
What has the experience of New Things Under the Sun becoming so popular been like for you? For instance, has it changed how you write or what you decide to write about? And what do you think is hard about writing NTUS that might not be widely appreciated?
It’s been great that people I respect like the project, but the most important thing about it becoming popular is that I now get paid to do it. People sometimes say if you get paid to do something you previously did for fun, it kind of ruins it for you because it becomes work. That hasn’t been my experience, probably because (1) I don’t stress about view counts or anything anymore, and (2) I work on it a few hours each M-Th, but it’s not my entire professional life (much less my whole identity).
The main thing that has changed as the project has become bigger is that it’s more ambitious than it was at the outset. Mostly you can see that in the length of the articles, but also a bit in the work I put into the site infrastructure. I still write what I think is interesting, though other stuff I’m working on at the Institute for Progress and now at Open Philanthropy has some influence on what I think is interesting.
Probably the hardest part is knowing how much cool stuff is out there that I don’t have time to get to!
What areas of economics do you think the economics of science and innovation might want to draw upon more? More theory? More behavioral economics?
I don’t think we necessarily need more economic theory related to innovation, unless it’s informed by new data and facts (which it is sometimes!). I just feel like we had that in spades for decades.
The biggest blindspot for economists of innovation that I worry about is that, actually, incentives just don’t matter as much as we think. Engineering innovation may be much more a problem of finding the right people (not just right skills, but have a creative personality open to novel solutions), bringing the right people together, and so on. I’m not sure the right field to learn from on these topics though; still it’s something I think a lot about!
What role do government and politics play in supporting scientific innovation (coming from academia)?
There are good/interesting arguments on both sides of “governments have nothing to do with progress in science vs look at all the useful things we’ve got from the NASA space program”, etc. Where do you fall?
The biggest single thing is the government simply pays for a very large chunk of science! In 2019, the federal government paid for 41% of US scientific research.[1] That was more than the private sector (33%), university system (13%), or the philanthropic sector (10%). It’s true that if the US government stepped back these other sectors would probably step forward to shoulder some of the burden, but I doubt they would cover the majority of the short-fall.
More broadly, I think science and innovation is pretty hard to predict. That means we ideally want an innovation ecosystem that explores and tries lots of different approaches, even if some of those approaches don’t seem to hold the highest promise at there outset. One way you can get that is to have a private sector that is open to new entrants and startups who want to try different stuff than the incumbents. But those new firms are still going to be ultimately chasing the same signal as everyone else, namely profit, which might limit the extent to which this ecosystem explores the potential space of technological possibility.
So I think it’s useful to have some innovating organizations who are pursuing goals entirely untethered from market success. The government is one viable solution to this problem of getting a bit more exploration into the innovation ecosystem. I haven’t seen a study that tries to rigorously quantify the value of, e.g., NASA or DARPA, in terms of their spillovers to the rest of the economy, but I would be surprised if they don’t come out looking like good investments.
From table RD-3 of the NSF science and engineering report, taking basic research as a proxy for science.
Anton Howes has been writing about an innovation mentality as critical in brining about the Industrial Revolution. Joel Mokyr discussed the importance of culture—the beliefs, values and preferences that influence behavior—as critical.
How do you think about our culture in the US today as it relates to innovation? Where are we strong, and where are there opportunities for improvement? I’m especially interested in how this may be changing: can we see differences in cultural attitudes across US generations? E.g., are younger people more innovation oriented now than they were decades ago—or less? And especially if less—what do you think is the best way of fostering an innovation culture especially among young people? (Or, put differently, what are the key obstacles you see?)
Where are we strong?
Across the sweep of history, the contemporary USA has got to be in the top 5% for it’s cultural support for innovation. But I think that’s mostly because the default state through human history has been so bad, rather than that we are so good![1] But it could be a lot worse! Elon Musk was person of the year in 2021!
It’s true that a lot of people are down on innovation, but I think to some degree that has to be an inevitable part of the kind of free society you want where lots of different perspectives (itself important for innovation!) are welcome and collide. A world with universal acclaim for innovation and progress would itself be kind of stifling. But that’s not to say we have the balance right already.
Where are there opportunities for improvement?
In my experience, different regions of the USA differ a lot in terms of what you ambitious people think they should do with their energies, and indeed how ambitious they should be. In some places, the ambitious thing to do might be to go to an Ivy League school, and then to be funneled into finance or medicine or something. In others, it’s to found a startup. In my own home state, neither of these was particularly emphasized. I think it would be great if people had a bit more exposure to what ambition means in different places, to broaden their own views about what a good life means. Not everyone would opt to be an innovator, but I think at present a lot of people who should probably are not because they simply don’t consider it much.
Joe Henrich’s book The Secret of our Success has some really interesting examples of traditional societies where if you tried to be innovative and more efficient than your peers, you would end up subtly killing yourself. In a world where humanity’s causal knowledge about how the world works is weak, innovation probably is dangerous to the individual, and so society’s rationally encouraged doing things the traditional way.
I hadn’t thought about the regional aspects, but it makes total sense, and it reminds me of this post by Paul Graham that talks about cities and ambitions: http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html
What learnings can we draw from your work on innovation on bringing together thinkers in progress studies? When do you think we should think about in-person gatherings and events, and when is it fine to work at a distance/via Zoom/here in the forum? As we think about events and bringing people together to learn and exchange ideas, any insights from your research on how to best structure those types of events?
In this context, Eric Gilliam had an interest post on his substack on conferences and Feynman’s take on their declining usefulness. Curious to hear if you have any thoughts based on your research as well on organizing gatherings that lead to more innovation.
Eric’s post: https://freaktakes.substack.com/p/feynman-on-journal-reviews-conferences
My basic view is that modern communication technology makes it pretty easy to communicate and exchange ideas with people, as long as you already have a relationship with those people. It’s less well suited for forming relationships because it’s not so good at helping you discover people outside what you think you’re interested in (because we tend to go to websites catering to our interests), and because it’s a bit harder to build deep trust without face to face meetings.
In-person events based around groups that have common interests but don’t already know each other can be really useful for forging deeper relationships, and the internet means those relationships can remain productive at a distance. They can also be useful for meeting new people, if these meetings are packed with people you don’t already know and the meetings force you to interact with new people (for example, by making you queue for a buffet, find a table with an opening, sit next to someone on a bus to a second location, circulate around and look at posters, etc.).
Maybe big conferences aren’t that good for this kind of thing, as Feynman and Eric speculate? At a big conference, you’re more likely to know more people and so you might end up just hanging out with them and not meeting new people. And perhaps, knowing you unlikely to run into any given person a second time, it just doesn’t feel as important to introduce yourself and get to know them? Or maybe it just takes two or three minor encounters to really build a relationship for many people.
For more on academic conferences, I wrote something here.
Thanks, Matt, for the thoughtful response. My key take-aways are that (1) in person events are helpful to get new relationships going because of trust & discovery, and (2) we should keep these meeting small (or create smaller sessions in larger meetings) and (3) purposefully get people together who otherwise might not talk, and ideally have them not just be passive but work on something together in those sessions. Some good initial thoughts in any case; thank you!
What are the primary characteristics you think an effective “culture of progress” would have?
Do you see any concrete, meaningful steps being taken to get to such a culture? Any opportunities in that direction that you see that you wish were being worked toward right now but aren’t?
Among other things it’s important that people think that of themselves as having the agency to solve big problems; that innovation and entrepreneurship—basically just pioneering new paths—is one of the things that it’s normal to do with your life. I have written a bit about that here and here.
You can try to do that at scale by trying to impact pop culture, and I don’t doubt that works to some degree. But I think the challenge is you are trying to convince someone that people like you can innovate too; and there is an inherent distance between what’s in pop culture and yourself for most people, simply because most people are not the subject of movies, TV shows, profiles, etc. More effective if it’s your brother or classmate or coworker who models the innovative career path, since it’s a small leap to think “if they can do it, why not me?”
Any initiative that presents evidence to lobby for change is confronted with the question of how exactly that evidence may feed into the political or bureaucratic process that can bring about said change. To what extent, do you think, should the Institute of Progress concern itself with the study of this evidence-to-policy pipeline? How interesting is this topic to you in general, and which other players are well positioned to contribute to research on the topic?
Yeah, this is a hugely important topic that is tough to appreciate from outside. I’m fond of this quote by Duncan Watts:
”For 20 years I thought my job was, as a basic scientist, publish papers and throw them over the wall for someone else to apply. I now realise that there’s no one on the other side of the wall. Just a huge pile of papers that we’ve all thrown over.”
The conventional wisdom is that, at least in the USA, you need a think tank apparatus that specializes in digesting academic literature and packaging it for policy-making. That’s one of the roles that the Institute for Progress plays on the metascience front. Also, this general topic is something I hope to look into more as a New Things Under the Sun post.
Excited that you’ll do some work on this, Matt—looking forward to reading it.
In the economics of innovation, what are the big questions where there now is a relatively settled consensus? And what are the big open questions that the field is currently debating?
We have some big picture stuff pretty nailed down. To start, long-run improvements in material living standards have long been understood to arise primarily from improvements to technology, which emerge from R&D. It’s also pretty settled that much of the value of R&D spills over to people who are not the performer of R&D, and this means that in a laissez-faire system, R&D will be supplied at less than desirable levels. This problem is especially acute for fundamental science, which is primarily aimed at understanding how the world works. Most economists think the government is going to have to play a role in supporting, for example, fundamental scientific research.
Given that a laissez-faire system is going to undersupply R&D, what’s the best set of policy interventions? Here, there’s a lot more debate and uncertainty. For example, in this 2019 paper by Bloom, Van Reenen, and Williams, they try to describe some of the main policy tools available to influence innovation. In a table at the end of the paper, they evaluate the quality and conclusiveness of the evidence for different policies.
Settled issues, with high quality evidence:
Skilled migration is good
R&D tax credits work
Stuff we’re less sure about, either because evidence conflicts a bit, or we lack very good evidence:
Direct R&D grants
Patent boxes
Impact of universities on STEM supply
Stuff that we’re very unsure about:
Impact of providing incentives to universities
Effects of intellectual property rights
Mission oriented policies (like DARPA)
Hi! I’m Jonathan Mazumdar, currently co-founder of Growth Teams, a new nonprofit that supports developing countries achieve catch-up growth.
For some time I’ve been interested in the history and economics of innovation and economic growth. One of the books that really ignited my interest in progress-related topics was Where Good Ideas Come From by Steven Johnson; I’m a big fan of all his work.
I’m drawn to progress studies due to the intrinsic satisfaction that comes from knowing the true origin of things, and the lessons that may be relevant both for frontier growth in high-income countries and for catch-up growth in developing countries.
I’m based in Kigali and fairly infrequently on Twitter @jmazda.
Sad do miss this, will be travelling!
https://www.harpercollins.ca/9780062894007/the-cancer-code/
Thanks Kent, can you say something about this book?
The book The Cancer Code contains three stories about the cause of cancer.
The first cause is a story about toxins; examples are lung cancer caused by smoking and asbestos.
The second cause is cancer is a genetic disease. And the book documents two or three cancers that are genetic in origin.
The third cause is poor metabolic health. The book notes that obese and diabetic people have higher cancer rates for certain types of cancer than metabolically healthy people.
The vital part for people following scientific progress is the people that believe in genetics did not come from the toxin believers, and the metabolic health advocates did not come from the genetic cause believers.
The author Dr. Jason Fung MD tries to explain where the different groups of believers came from, but I need to understand institutions better to explain it.
Yes, I think fast progress is dangerous, because human beings are limited in how quickly they can adapt to change. Fast progress is dangerous because it further empowers violent men’s ability to crash the entire system.
The future of this civilization will be decided by our relationship with knowledge. Just as animals have to adapt to a changing environment or die, our relationship with knowledge has to adapt to a changing environment too.
Currently we’re operating from a “more is better” relationship with knowledge philosophy left over from the 19th century. That philosophy made sense in the long era of knowledge scarcity, an era we no longer live in. Today we live in a time when knowledge is exploding in every direction at an accelerating rate, a revolutionary new era very unlike the early knowledge scarcity era. New conditions require new thinking.
The idea that we should be generating more and more knowledge so as to obtain more and more power represents an immature understanding of the human condition. Such an assumption is instead bad engineering, as it doesn’t take in to account the limited nature of human ability.
https://progressforum.org/posts/zNx24zqq2kg45CuTb/our-relationship-with-knowledge
The biggest threat to a better future, or pretty much any future worth living, is the marriage between violent men and the knowledge explosion.
How can biology help meet that threat? Could biology fundamentally change violent men? If not, could biology help remove violent men from the planet?
My vote, set all the other dreams above aside, and work on the violent men problem first. If that challenge is not met, whatever else might be achieved by biology is probably going to be erased by violent men sooner or later. As you know, the technology to make this happen is already in place, ready to go at a moment’s notice.
I’m working on the violent men problem on my blog. I don’t have a biology background, so assistance from those who do would be most welcome.
https://www.tannytalk.com/p/world-peace-table-of-contents
Violent men, in the sense that commits crime, are predominately young. In our society, the decision-makers who decide on war and peace are generally much older and not in that group. Queens waged more wars than kings.
Let’s commit massive genocide to archive world peace in itself is also not a peaceful plan.
Removing a group of people from the planet is what genocide is about.
Amazing story, and fantastic post, thanks!
I suspect the day-to-day tedium (or perceived tedium) of biology turns off more people than a lack of big-picture dreams. Suppose you dream of regrowing limbs. How will you actually be spending your days?
There’s also the cultural pushback—the ick factor, the Frankenstein fear, Leon Kass’s “wisdom of repugnance”—against anything too big in biology. People find big biological dreams much creepier than big dreams involving inanimate objects.
How common is it for top German students to want to attend ETH-Zurich instead?
PS: you should talk to Tim Farkas about all of this!
I love your essay’s attempt to draw out the domains of infectious disease and compare them with regard to progress via broad measures and more specific measures.
As someone who reads a lot of the news about new papers in both domains, I see the two domains are very similar in this regard. The floor upon which cancer research rests is the commonalities between cancers. For decades there has been a War on Cancer, and lots of things are unified across cancer, including public health efforts to avoid carcinogens.
Most striking, look at the pipeline page for any pharma company with a major cancer effort—like https://www.pfizer.com/science/oncology-cancer/pipeline—and you’ll find individual drugs being tested on cancers in multiple organs. For example Pfizer calls one of its compounds Braftovi, and they have Phase 2 or 3 trials using it for melanoma, colorectal cancer, and lung cancer. Similar marketed cancer drugs, like Gleevec, which is used for leukemia and other blood cancers, gastrointestinal stromal tumors, and skin tumors)
So the pharma intrustry is clearly fighting a war against cancer as a whole. Sam’s comment is perhaps a bit of an exaggeration—I’ve never heard a cancer researcher say that cancers are “mostly unrelated to each other”—but, more important, such comments have the context that cancers are a bundle of closely-related diseases, and everyone either knows this or thinks they’re a single disease.
I recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hallmarks_of_Cancer as the major framework that pulls together cancer into the major things that make a cancer succeed, including a somatic-mutation-rich environment, chronic inflammation, ability to replicate endlessly, evade the immune system, avoid programmed cell death, grow new blood vessels, and metastasize.
Another key to understanding cancer: knowing about the Oncogenic signaling pathways (p325 here: https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(18)30359-3.pdf). As far as I can tell these are much closer to being the actual “different diseases” in play than the various cancers named by organ. I don’t know how these pathways work, or even how exactly cancer breaks them—that’s a lot of molecular biology! -- but just knowing their names I find the daily news about the cancer literature more legible.
Looping back to the comparison made in your essay between infectious diseases and cancers, I’m struck that we started fighting infectious disease a lot earlier. For example John Snow figured out that you could avert cholera by keeping sewage out of the water supply in about 1850, and if I recall Steven Johnson’s book about public health, this was the beginning of a whole series of public health interventions against infectious disease. The idea of wearing sunscreen to avoid skin cancer seems to have come in during my childhood, over 100 years later. Same for the idea of averting lung cancer by not smoking.
I would list 3 major advances that have reduced infectious disease: public health measures, vaccines, and antibiotics. For cancer, the most effective measures are probably public health measures, surgery, chemo, and now immunooncology. Those best tools are all less effective than the best tools we use to fight infectious disease. That probably has a lot to do with how late the groundbreaking research started. Immunooncology only made its transition from minor theory to major treatment in about 2010. At a research level, treating cancer requires understanding molecular biology, and that discipline only really exploded in about 2000 when sequencing became cheap enough that we first sequenced a single human genome. There are obviously more big drug discoveries in the works, like CAR-T and cancer vaccines—let’s hope those scale, and let’s hope there are more new discoveries on the way.
Thanks for the detailed thoughts!
Yes, we did start fighting infectious disease long before the germ theory. Most notably, the first immunization techniques, against smallpox, long predated the theory. Also there were sanitation reforms that helped significantly. But these methods were limited: e.g., no vaccines for any disease other than smallpox were created, and water sanitation did not include chlorination. Indeed, sometimes sanitation efforts backfired, as when Edwin Chadwick tried to clean up the stench of London by building sewers to drain all cesspools into the Thames, and ended up polluting the supply of drinking water. Progress was much more rapid and consistent after the germ theory.
I share a fondness for this topic and generally agree with your assessment; in fact in 2021 as part of a NASA challenge I was working on a project to design a closed-loop food system for long-duration space missions. One thing to note is that in any such closed system, the amount of material you have to carry initially scales exponentially with respect to your fraction lost per cycle.
Interestingly enough, I think having access to this technology would have a lot of effects beyond space; it would make humanity more robust in existential risk scenarios, and complex distributed manufacturing would have a large transformative (and IMO beneficial) impact on socioeconomic and political systems on Earth.
Perhaps you would find this post interesting too:
https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/4viLtxnwzMawqdPum/time-consistency-for-the-ea-community-projects-that-bridge
Kind Regards,
Arturo
Also posted in Effective Altruism Forum: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/QianitTHjKBSH2sXC/space-colonization-and-the-closed-material-economy
Thanks Sam! Your comment about biologists thinking the cure for cancer doesn’t exist spurred these thoughts: Can we “cure” cancer?
This forum and the movement in general are not really popular outside of some very small elite circles. I hope that changes and you manage to propagate the memes more widely. The normalization of declinism and romanticism^1 in most mainstream communities creates communication barriers and reduces the ability of society to make positive actions.
However, I am against progress maximalism as expressed on this forum. Let me elaborate my view, parts of which have definitely been expressed before:
The ideas of The Roots of Progress would be obviously correct in a world slightly different than ours.
I see “progress” as mining knowledge, enabling technology. There is no creation; every idea is waiting to get discovered, validated and applied. If something would improve our lives, it is indeed a moral imperative to “get it out of the ground”.
Almost all positive things that happened to humanity so far stem from mining technological progress (fire, agriculture, domestication of horses, fossil fuels, electricity, extermination of pathogens, contraception, computers, Internet), and the rest being some progress in social and political technology (religion, morals, basic freedoms, democracy, rule of law), with all of it being enabled by communication technology (language, writing, books, Internet platforms). We will make progress on all of the above in the future.
Of course, there is often negative “environmental impact”, coming from disruption or negative externalities . But in the end we always solve this by creating better social or scientific technologies, or the problems just disappear as people adapt.
Progress happens by mining for knowledge and applying that in the world. Some great people create new mines, others improve processes of existing mines. We need multiple mines doing their things, bringing about different ways to do stuff. Understanding the mechanisms behind mine creation and preservation will obviously give returns far exceeding the invested effort, if we leverage this knowledge to improve mining.
Unfortunately we find ourselves in a different world. A few years back we discovered mithril under a single mountain, which looks like it will make all but a tiny number of other ores obsolete in less than half of a human lifetime. Moreover, it is inherently easier to extract than what we are used to in other mines.
The obvious goal missing from the progress framework is not to improve processes in all mines everywhere, it’s not even to optimize the mithril mining process. It is to make sure there are no demons of the ancient world^2 waiting inside.
The progress movement is nevertheless a positive thing, for various reasons:
if we close the mine for good, the spirit of progress must live on; almost no other mines can pose dangers that outweigh the benefits;
if for some reason the mithril vein is not as deep as it looks (and this is quite possible, but definitely not the modal outcome), we are soon again in the world where progress studies is obviously correct;
progress in other mines can make us better equipped for dealing with the one that matters;
(very ambitious) understanding the mechanisms of progress itself, if those generalize enough, might make us able to control the progress in the mithril mine.
But we must not forget that the following two bitter statements look more and more true each day:
Most existing problems look like they will be solved by default using just the outputs of the mithril mine! The actionable insights of progress studies will often be in areas which take several decades to give results.
Human agency is not infinite. We are not that smart. If we blindly rush into the unknown, it is possible we dig too deep. More importantly, given the mithril mine is going so well by default, focusing on minimizing the probability of things going wrong looks better than thinking about progress in areas which will get steamrolled by the mithril revolution.
^1: Romanticism of the past, or of nature, the status quo, or of anything that only looks nice but falls apart when faced with the test of “does moving in that direction really make our lives better?”
^2: It also makes sense to fight smaller negative externalities, because when the technology is so powerful, the sheer speed of deployment might overwhelm defensive mechanisms against irresponsible and bad-faith use, and be too fast for people to adapt while retaining sanity.
You might want to consider posting this as a top-level post as well.
Hello! I’m Alex K. Chen (http://twitter.com/InquilineKea, https://linktr.ee/simfish , http://quora.com/Alex-K-Chen). I’m everywhere. I’m a singular individual and “interesting things happen around me” (esp b/c I always have an eye directed towards progress, even though I am super fine-grained and keep track of SO many things that it gives me ADHD [this is not a bad thing however!}) I am the living embodiment of “Why Greatness Cannot be Planned”/open-ended reinforcement learning/maximum-entropy reinforcement learning.
I have lots of access to new/early-stage people (including TKS’ers, Atlas Fellows, Interact Fellows, old Quora crowd) and might be the ideal inter-generational connector.
http://forum.longevitybase.org. I also know more than almost anyone in how to slow down rate of aging (which I also think is integral to progress studies, as people take WAY longer to “grow up” than ever before) [I know https://twitter.com/bkavoussi also got into longevity as of late]
Welcome, Heike! Very excited to be working with you.
Hi everyone! I’m Richard, an applied computational scientist working at a scale-up technology company in London. My main expertise is in machine learning, particularly predictive modelling. I’m particularly interested in “Progress-minded approaches to other issues of the day (climate change, poverty/inequality, war, etc.)” as listed in the FAQ relevant topics. On a more tediously technical level I’m keen to learn more about the models and processes that lead to reliable progress in science and technology, and how these can be applied in different contexts. Looking forward to arguing (politely) with you all!
Your latest article was something else! I would love to learn about your process of writing such essays from how you find the graphs to how you create the entire narrative. I’m especially interested in this section, “Are cargo airships startupable?” I enjoyed how you broke everything down using data, math, and other assumptions.
Unrelated: let me know if you’d be interested in a discussion/debate with a professor (in front of the entire class) with whom I’m taking a class about the future of energy. My professor thinks we should avoid growth, not use electricity and make it really expensive.
Thank you!
The key to the process on this one was first spending several years thinking about cargo airships and how you could make a business around them. I made my first phone call asking if I could buy a cargo airship over three years ago.
All charts other than the one I cribbed from the Review of Maritime Transport are original, either to me or to the engineer that did the trade study.
Once I sat down to write, the narrative came pretty easily. I just wrote what I thought, trying to explain why I thought airships are interesting and why they could be profitable and why it’s hard to get there from here (i.e., why I’m not starting an airship startup).
On cargo airships: has anyone analyzed designs that remain towed/tethered to surface routes/vessels?
For example, could an electric locomotive powered by ground lines tow far larger amounts of cargo via a tethered airship? Or, an oceangoing container ship tow more tonnage in its air-trailer than in its holds?
Alternatively, could such tethers-along-routes supply electricity to self-propelled airships, minimizing onboard fuel/generation weight?
Or, could airships receive beamed power from elsewhere? For example, tightly-planned routes might receive beamed power from surface stations – possibly even mid-ocean wind/solar/tide platforms. Or could arbitrary routes receive beamed power from solar-power satellites?
Might short-range drones, or even smaller airship lift platforms, enable loading/unloading smaller cargo onto larger airships without explicit landing stops- making the largest platforms permanent ‘conveyor belts’ in the skies?
Similar to your map showing where high-elevation mountains may present ‘no-go’ areas, are there regions where the constancy or unpredictability of high winds create no-go or highly-variable service limits? When an envisioned large ships hits unexpected/unpredicted high winds, what does it do to adapt? (Can it usually wait it out or ride the winds for mere delays, or are things like emergency landings or even scuttling the ship within the likely scenarios, under large scale operations?
If I understand the tethering question, I don’t think that would help. A train or container ship can already carry many times more cargo than an airship can.
When I looked at space-based solar power, I was struck that the wireless transmission was not much denser than solar (otherwise, they would pose a danger to the ground if they missed the receiver). I think putting thin-film solar could buy its way onto the top of the hull if it was cheap and light enough. I have heard about very high-powered laser propulsion systems for high-speed aircraft, but those seem a long way off.
If you’re talking about drones using rotary lift to carry 1 container at a time, those might need to be pretty powerful to work! I am not sure it calcs out. Would be cool if it worked though.
I am not aware of any no-go areas for wind. Would assume Antarctica might be bad, but it’s already no-go for altitude and few people live there anyway. I think you would want to design the mission to route around storms and just get there a day late if necessary (with a contract structure that reflects this possibility). You probably never want to scuttle the ship since it’s likely expensive compared to the cargo value.
So theoretical airship-cargo is still way more expensive per container or ton than either rail or container-ships – it just wins by speed or having more endpoints (like trucking)? Hence, ‘airship trailers’ provide no chance of incremental capacity boosts for surface vessels, if still limited to their speed/endpoints?
Capping laser/microwave/etc beamed power density to what’s safe for failure situations where it’s “missed the receiver” seems prematurely restrictive. What if misses are so rare, & so easily detected/ended-instantly, that such a limit is an inefficient way to increase safety compared to other tactics? If the big market is over unpopulated oceans, is the concern for brief rare misses that high? (And is the “long way off” for things like laser-propulsion or power-delivery really longer than the other engineering/regulatory hurdles involved?)
Drones (including airship-bouyant drones, not just multicopters) to ferry full containers to passing-by megaships would be interesting – but I was thinking as small as individual packages, dropping and rising from households & individual businesses. (At some margin, can automated megaships be warehouses/fulfillment-centers?)
By my intutions, I find wind issues underdiscussed in these next-generation airship visions. It amazes me the wind conditions in which winged flight remains tractable – but those craft seem to rely heavily on actively avoiding the worst conditions, & their own momentum/strong-propulsion. Airships feel at much greater mercy of winds, for both predictable-service/efficiency & safety. Deeper analyses of how frequently there’d be delays, emergency groundings, service outages, etc from wind conditions would better help sell the vision.
I think airships could in principle approach rail costs but it would add a lot of complexity relative to just running another train on the same track. Big container ships are always going to be cheaper, I think.
FAA and pilots get mad about people pointing laser pointers into the sky.
I agree winds are super important and must be designed for and planned for in routing. Using them for sailing (added propulsion) is also promising.
Stably-positioned, heavily-capitalized, professionally-managed, presumably-licensed beamed-power infrastructure, such as terrestrial power stations or solar power satellites, aren’t really like random malicious or careless people with portable lasers. So if beamed-power otherwise becomes technically practical/beneficial, this seems a safety/perception/regulation challenge not especially larger than the many others involved here.
Yes, sounds plausible to me.
Hi! This sounds delightful. I’ve been reading a few people mentioned here awhile and I’d love to join you.
Excellent! Have you signed up on the RSVP list?
I have done now—thanks!
Hi Eli, I read your piece on the regulatory barriers to AI progress having material impacts on society. For me this pushes things in the direction of “we’ll have more AI automation of AI R&D before big societal trends in job automation”, which could imply faster AI progress generally if labs are focused more on their own AI → research automation → better AI feedback loop. I do think that an AI that could perform basically any jobs (not requiring hands) as well as a human for pennies on the dollar would radically transform society, but maybe we don’t see as much change in AI systems until then. This Metaculus question (https://www.metaculus.com/questions/3698/when-will-an-ai-achieve-a-98th-percentile-score-or-higher-in-a-mensa-admission-test/) on when an AI will get a Mensa-worthy iq score (current prediction: April 2028) suggests to me that we’re not far away from AGI. What do you think? My sense is that you’re much less bullish on AI progress than e.g. the LessWrong or EA communities.
I think the kinds of tests that prove that a human is intelligent or sentient or whatever are not the same as the kinds of tests that prove a computer program is sentient.
For example, imagine a test where we timed the test-taker on how long it takes to multiply two 8-digit numbers together. For most humans, this would take several minutes. For even a dollar-store calculator, it would take under a second.
For many decades, Alan Turing’s proposal that a computer that could converse indistinguishably from humans would be a sign of human-level sentience and intelligence was widely accepted. I myself thought, “Sure, sounds good,” when I first heard of it.
But actually, it turns out that carrying out a conversation for machines is easier than we thought. There is no real cognition going on inside ChatGPT. It is spitting out answers based on a statistical function trained on encoded inputs and outputs.
I think it is quite possible that an AI will achieve a 98th percentile score on a Mensa test by 2028 (maybe earlier). What I don’t think is that that will be a sign of human-level sentience or intelligence. It’s a sign of being able to mimic a few salient aspects of human intelligence.
To get to parity with human brain experience, we need several orders of magnitude higher computational efficiency to match neurons. We don’t need to get there all the way on efficiency; we can do some by burning more energy. Even so, it will take a couple of decades in my estimation.
And even so, there is still the possibility that we don’t really understand how the neurons work and we could be way off base! Michael Levin has pointed out that a caterpillar essentially disassociates its brain to become a butterfly, and yet somehow it retains at least some memories. I think we are far from really grokking it.
Huh, it’s hard for me to imagine reaching a 98th-percentile IQ score without the ability to do lots of cognitive work (I’m not talking about some model fine-tuned on IQ tests or whatever, just a general language model that happens to score well on the test). I have different intuitions about the calculator example: the point I take away from it is...we use calculators all the time! I’m perfectly content calling calculators a transformative innovation, though these language models are already much more general than the calculator.
Re: “There is no real cognition going on inside ChatGPT. It is spitting out answers based on a statistical function trained on encoded inputs and outputs.” This seems like a No True Scotsman that will keep you from noticing how their capabilities are improving. SSC’s take on GPT-2 was good for this, and imo got extremely vindicated when the GPT family went from an interesting toy to being able to create real economic value.
Re: Have you read Gwern’s stuff on machine learning scaling? All of the “we don’t really understand it” takes on a very different tone when you read his “deep learning wants to work” take. A technique that AI researchers disdain because it doesn’t match their love for theory, that works anyway, that then the whole SV community realizes is really promising...strikes me as something real and useful we accidentally discovered in the world. That we don’t understand it doesn’t stop it from working, that every basic little trick we try yields more fruit suggests that the fruit is really extremely low-hanging. For me, it’s worrying because I think we need good theory to learn how to control it, but the basic case for this being a thing doesn’t seem in question.
What are your thoughts on the Inflation Reduction Act passed last year? I have read that it is protectionist in nature and could divert investment from Europe and other places.
Also, what do you think about the potential of small modular nuclear reactors?
IRA:
- Very expensive, and we should take fiscal responsibility more seriously than we do.
- Has some good stuff in it.
- Will only translate into significant change in the real world if it is paired with permitting reform and other policies focused on deployment. Right now we are basically subsidizing companies to push through the headaches associated with getting to market, but it makes more sense to reduce the headaches.
- It is more protectionist than I would like, but Europe is the most mercantilist place on Earth, so I don’t have a lot of sympathy for them on this.
SMRs:
- The lowest possible LCOE that you can get with SMRs is higher than the lowest possible LCOE that you can get with gigawatt-scale plants.
- That said, SMRs could theoretically solve the biggest problem that we have in nuclear, which is that we don’t churn out identical plants in high numbers.
- Also, SMRs allow lower-scale plants, which means less reliance on transmission infrastructure, which is important.
- I’d like to see ultra-small reactors become a thing. Kilowatt-scale. Generator replacements. Portable.
- To really make nuclear portability work, it would be good to have solid-state thermal conversion, like thermoelectric generators or thermophotovoltaics. These would be more compact than turbines, and could come down in cost faster.
What are some projects you have plan to work on in the near-term? In the long term?
What are some projects you wish someone else would work on?
In the short term, I am doing some geothermal projects, and then possibly writing a book.
Longer term, I have a lot I’d like to do. If I ever found myself in a position where I could seize real power, I would take it and use it to promote progressy things.
I really enjoy the part of my job where I talk to people working on promising hard tech startups; often they need a bit of advice or some introductions to people in my network. I’d like to do more to help them, as they are often brought into contact with the barriers and obstacles I spend so much time thinking about.
I do wish someone else besides me would start a cargo airship company and do it right, with iterative design and a focus on getting to 500+ tons of cargo as quickly as possible.
How would you restructure the production of education and research? Universities are clearly pretty inefficient. How to improve them? Are there any politically feasible plans? Will AIs just obviate internal reform by creating an entirely new form of education and research?
The biggest problem that I see in college education is that most people don’t actually want to learn very much. College social life is undeniably fun, and although most people find a few classes they enjoy, they’re there for the experience + the credential.
I don’t know how to fix it because I think there is demand for the current system, but there should be at least one college with unlimited enrollment that is rigorous enough that it weeds out the people who aren’t giving it their best effort. Maybe it should be self-paced, with a massive total learning requirement so that it takes the best students four years and others longer. The degree would be worth more than other degrees in the end because it is so rigorous.
I think recorded lectures would be a part of it, but you’d probably still need/want human tutors and performance coaches. Motivation is often the scarce factor; if it wasn’t you could learn just about anything with a library card.
AI can help with both content and motivational scripts but I don’t think it’s a radical difference from what we can do now with non-AI methods.
If Rigorous U took off this would separate researchers further from undergraduate students. Research labs could be separate institutions even. I’d like to see researchers spend more time exposed to industry. At least once in their career they should take a basic science breakthrough and try to take it all the way to commercialization. Yes, there are gains from specialization, but there are also gains from a broader range of experience and contacts.
I’m not optimistic that any of this is socially or politically feasible.
This sounds great. I’d love to see this work done over the coming year. Make it happen, Tony and Jim!
Given that the supreme court frequently ruled against NEPA, why aren’t there more cases involving NEPA in front of the supreme court to curb its excesses?
It’s true, the Supreme Court has ruled against vetocracy with NEPA every time, usually unanimously. I think for potential litigants, there isn’t much value in going all the way to the Supreme Court. It’s possible the court won’t hear your case, so you have to take steps to comply with the lower court’s ruling anyway. Once you’re doing that, spending more on litigation isn’t going to get you anything; you can always just fix the EIS and move forward.
In other words, taking a case to the Supreme Court for the purpose of setting a new precedent is a public good, and a lot of people don’t supply public goods all by themselves.
That still seems surprising to me. The Koch’s for example seem to be very willing to spend a lot of money think tanks to advance the public good as they see it.
Is there a reason why billionaires like the Koch’s who are willing to spend money on policy changes don’t care about NEPA?
This is great to understand.
But there are organizations that bring cases as a public good and they pay for the litigation. On the left, ACLU. For libertarians, the Institute for Justice (IJ). IJ identifies laws or regulations they want to dispute and then find a sympathetic plaintiff to represent. Someone like you would probably do a lot of good by convincing IJ to find some NEPA cases to bring.
The party of record is a federal agency, though. I’m not sure IJ can defend them.
Individuals don’t have standing to sue when NEPA holds up their projects for years?
The NEPA lawsuit is brought by an environmental org against an agency. I could be wrong but I don’t think a different party can appeal the decision.
This list the existing NEPA lawsuits before the supreme court and while some of them have government agencies as the plaintiff many don’t.
Monsanto Co. v. Geertson Seed Farms is one example.
Good catch. Looks like in the district court Geertson sued federal officials as per usual but Monsanto filed a motion to intervene and join the case.
Peter Thiel recently argued that a slowdown in progress is overdetermined, and due in part to a widespread fear of progress itself. Should we be focusing on the mass psychology needed to support progress? What might help?
I think it’s true to some extent that the masses exert some demand for stagnation.
The way I’ve been thinking about it is that laws and norms are ways of solving iterated prisoner’s dilemmas. But because of loss aversion, there isn’t symmetry in the kinds of PDs that get solved this way. The “prevent something bad from happening” PDs get solved more than the “make something great happen” PDs do. (This is essentially the Nietzschean distinction between slave morality and master morality, applied to laws as well as morals.)
I don’t think the masses are ever going to change. Rather, I think elites need to compensate and be advocates for great things happening. There needs to be an elite conspiracy to elevate humanity far above where it would otherwise be willing to go.
A lot of policy change can happen with only elite consensus. In my work I focus a lot on small changes that need not concern most people, like a categorical exclusion for geothermal energy. Or changing how the Department of Energy does contracting for demonstration projects. I think a promising way to increase progress is to subtly remove a lot of small obstacles like this.
Maybe if we can get a few great, visible achievements it will soften mass opposition to some degree.
What’s your theory of political authority? Do citizens have a moral responsibility to obey government more than other organizations? What are the proper limits to government authority? How does this figure into your policy recommendations?
I don’t think there is any account of political authority that isn’t defeated by the standard objections.
For purely prudential reasons, I think people should give some deference to governments as long as the government is mostly functional and aligned with the population. Living in a state where the government is ineffective is not generally pleasant, and we should all in some sense be rooting for the government to succeed at least at its basic functions.
I don’t think there is a set of given-from-on-high proper limits to what the government should do, but I prefer modest aims executed with competence and focus compared to what we have now.
My recommendations don’t generally speak to the overall size or role of government. For the most part, I am trying to help the government succeed by its own lights—often by helping it get out of its own way. I think this approach gets me in with both Democrats and Republicans and makes me more effective than if I founded my ideas in a more explicit ideology.
So well put, the “succeed by its own lights” thing is such an important idea, and probably not articulated enough.
In your post from 2019 on moving the needle of progress, you mention health (or better, wellness) as one of four key levers toward progress, and you highlight patient empowerment and using data from wearable devices as potentially big opportunity.
Do you have any thoughts on what is stopping this from happening? It seems that using data to empower people to live healthier is a win all around: better quality of life/more energy/less pain for the individual, lower medical cost for the insurance and employer, and higher worker productivity. Why aren’t we, for example, seeing health insurance plans that incentivize healthy behavior that can be tracked via wearables and provide meaningful financial incentives (similar to safe driver programs)?
I think the biggest obstacle is FDA clearance for these devices.
The FDA seems to be concerned about people using consumer-grade products to make medical decisions. Let’s say Apple or Google release a smart watch with non-invasive blood glucose capability. Maybe it’s not perfectly accurate, but still useful information for non-diabetics to see how their blood glucose spikes after eating and to monitor the speed at which the body clears out the glucose.
If a diabetic customer starts giving themselves insulin shots based on the watch instead of a measurement from a medical device, that could be bad. Therefore, FDA is very restrictive about devices that report medically-relevant facts, even if there are disclaimers that they should not be used for medical purposes.
So it’s a slog to get the new non-invasive tech to be as accurate as medical-grade tech, to prove that they are equally accurate, and/or to get FDA to sign off on disclaimers that say the data shouldn’t be used to administer medication, etc.
I still think we’ll get there. There’s some info online about the Apple/Rockley Photonics partnership. You can expect a future Apple Watch to have not only its current sensor suite but also measurements for blood pressure, blood alcohol, lactate, and glucose. Blood pressure in the next 2 years, the rest maybe a couple of years later.
Why aren’t insurance companies paying for it yet? I think the current device sensor suite isn’t high enough on cost-benefit for them yet. As prices come down and the new capabilities are added, it seems like a no-brainer. Like in 2035 a device with all the capabilities I described above might be $100. Probably worth it then.
Thanks for the quick response, Eli. My follow-up is similar to Jasons: I’m wondering not so much why insurance companies don’t pay for these devices right now, but more why there isn’t a push to use them to financially reward or incentivize healthy behavior or outcomes.
For example, if it costs an insurance company $10K more to care for someone with diabetes than someone without, what if the insurer offered the patient a deal: if via non-medication means you reverse your diabetes (as measured by insulin and hemoglobin A1C or HbA1c test), we’ll pay you $5,000 (or, if they pay privately for their insurance, we’ll give you a year-end cost refund of $$).
Or, different approach: if you do specific behaviors that we know will lead to your diabetes improving, we’ll pay you a certain amount per month each month you meet the targets consistently (e.g., wear a fitness tracker and exercise 5x per week for 30 min at vigorous intensity and wear a continuous glucose monitor and stick to a 10-hour feeding window by practicing intermittent fasting for at least 20 days/month).
Of course, the details would need to be worked out and there are lots of questions (e.g., how does this work for people who are already metabolically healthy vs. those who aren’t). But there are companies playing this space at a small scale, using biofeedback and clear lifestyle incentives to improve health outcomes (albeit without insurance pay-back), such as VirtaHealth, Levels, and HealthyWage, and commercial supportive counseling programs like Noom.
Given how immense the cost of metabolic disease is for individuals and society I’m surprised that there isn’t a larger effort to use these trackers to fundamentally change how the incentives work. Wouldn’t it be better if insurance companies actually helped people get healthy, rather than pay for ongoing medication for multiple chronic diseases?
I’m really curious if anyone has done any digging on the regulatory barriers that would make it hard to make this happen. (Or maybe this is an untapped business opportunity for someone, if there aren’t any major regulatory hurdles!)
It looks like certain wellness programs that are allowed, but there are limits on what you can do if you make it outcome-contingent. https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/ebsa/about-ebsa/our-activities/resource-center/publications/caghipaaandaca.pdf
Thanks for that link, Eli. This is exactly the type of context I was looking for. It woulds like there is a regulatory hurdle here with significant potential liability if the program were to get challenged as not meeting those requirements both on the actual program design and on the documentation.
Are there any restrictions on what insurance companies are allowed to do with this kind of info? Health insurance is highly regulated too.
I’m not sure what the privacy implications are, but they can definitely give you the devices for free if it’s cost-effective for them to do that.
I meant more on the question of financial incentives for metrics. Basically, charging healthy people less / charging more for risk factors. Are you allowed to do this? I think some amount of this is allowed in some jurisdictions, but are there crucial limitations on it?
The ability to charge people more and less based on observed (but not demographic) characteristics got pretty limited by the Affordable Care Act. I’m not sure of the details, however.
Why do you believe that deregulating housing will increase productivity (TFP)?
In theory, could you build a lobbying super-army against NEPA, housing regulation, etc. a la big oil?
Given that the US now sucks at building public transit, would deregulating housing be a disaster? It’s hard to fit on NYC trains as it is.
Is the price of solar truly going down, or does it just seem that way because the gov is paying for it via incentives and waivers?
If you could have your pick of any federal agency to run for four years, which one would you choose?
1. Housing is, depending on the year, 15-18% of GDP, and if we could get that for free, it would tautologically increase productivity. Also, high housing costs limit agglomeration effects by pricing some people out of the most productive markets. There are a bunch of other negative effects of high housing prices. I’d refer you to “the housing theory of everything” for a discussion.
2. I think the “lobbying super-army” we need is elite consensus. If we convinced all the smart people that vetocracy is a bad way to achieve environmental goals, that would basically do it.
3. If we deregulated housing, people in general would not have to commute as far! But yes, transit construction in the US is often a mess.
4. The price of solar is truly going down. It’s not just because incentives are offsetting the cost. However, I do think it is an open question how far the costs can keep falling.
5. Department level? Department of Energy. Agency level? FAA.
What is the relationship between public policy and the imagination?
That’s a broad question, but as it relates to progressy things, I think imagination about what the future could hold is certainly a factor in the kind of social ambitions that we aspire to.
It’s a common belief among some economic historians, for example, that we have already picked the low-hanging fruit. There are no new inventions in their mind that could match the inventions of the 19th and 20th centuries in terms of providing explosive growth. Maybe they’re right, but I can certainly imagine new inventions that could change everything.
As I argued previously on Progress Forum, futurism is important for producing a concrete vision that can inform our goals.
What formative things between the ages of 14 and 24 made you who you are today?
Getting online in the mid-90s was huge. The web was tiny back then, but it was still such a window to the world. I tinkered with everything, taught myself HTML, played with hacker tools, read The Anarchist Cookbook, made myself a Geocities page, etc.
The other formative thing was in college, discovering economics, which was a way of thinking that comes completely naturally to me. Finally, people are making some sense, I thought. In my early 20s, the Econ blogging scene was crucial. These are my people, I thought, and I ended up putting myself at the center of that group by going to GMU for a PhD.
I loved your idea that Congress should have incentive pay based on growth in John Fernald’s Total Factor Productivity series. I would also argue that it’s important for that incentive to be smooth and linear from 0% to 7%, and that the ideal amount is large—at least $100,000 for each 1% (annually).
My big question: do you think there’s a chance of getting this done?
I still like that idea too, but it’s pretty weird and unlikely to pass any time soon. A more likely reform that I also like is ranked choice voting.
Hi Eli! You told me a little about this the last time we chatted in person, and I’d love to hear more: Could ould you elaborate a little more on your “theory of change”? That is, how do you see your day to day work resulting in the kind of improvements you want to see?
And for experienced working professionals looking to maybe make a more impactful career switch: any underrated or not well known career paths that you wished more people embarked on that could help? And any particular industry backgrounds/expertise that you wish were more involved in the policy conversations?
As a writer: influencing other people, building consensus on what the problems are, building a network of people that are aligned.
As a researcher: coming up with highly-specific policy solutions to an important problem. Ideally, this would be a small, non-controversial provision that someone could slip into a bill unnoticed.
So for example, I have written a lot about the problems with NEPA and permitting, and I think there’s been a consensus developed among a big chunk of the political spectrum that it’s a real problem and we need to fix it. At the same time, I have been trying to push a specific fix for geothermal permitting, which is to give it the same categorical exclusion that oil and gas has.
Two different kinds of change, and I try to do both, but succeeding at the latter is rare and extremely valuable such that if you do it only a few times in your life that is a successful career.
On career switching: I would advise people to look less at creating a coherent career, where there is a logical progression from one step to the next, and to instead just find a job that interests and inspires you to do your very best work. My own career has been pretty haphazard: I was going to be a professor, then no just kidding I’m going to do nonprofit policy research, then oh no I am going to work at a startup, then back to policy research. None of this was part of a deliberate plan.
One heuristic that I think works well:
1. What do you think is the single most interesting thing going on right now?
2. How can you put yourself at the center of that thing?
Dear Mr. Dourado,
I’ve recently been watching many clips of the TV Show, The Last of Us. While Mycologists insist that there are no zombie fungi, the loose talk about a new pandemic and the failure to create a universal covid vaccine has taught many people (including me) a deep dread. For example, the declining nutritional value of food could be causing Colon Cancer in young people. Medical science’s slow pace also fails to find treatments for scary diseases like ALS. How do you remain in a positive headspace when there’s so much negative news?
I like this Alan Watts quote:
“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.”
And Nietzsche’s new year’s resolution is words to live by:
“I want to learn to see more and more as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who makes things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all and all and on the whole: someday I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.”
I’m amazed that existence exists at all. Every moment is a gift.
Referencing your recent AI article (which is great!):
How much of the problem of digital technology being hard to implement productively because of social/legal/policy stuff:
A path dependency issue: digital technology just has to exist substantively before the social/legal/policy environment is generated, improved and optimized to accommodate it?
To the extent this path dependency exists, do you think we could be doing more to prime the social/legal/policy environment for new technologies preemptively? Is better anticipation of the social/legal/policy needs of digital technology feasible? Or are the main gains (or least reckless approaches) to be found in speeding up the accommodation process for digital technology once it exists, and its practical applications become clearer.
For 1 & 2, how do you see the answers varying across different sectors of the economy?
I don’t think path dependency is the right way of looking at it. I’d frame it rather differently:
We are doing a bunch of clown stuff that is holding back productivity improvements all the time. There is nothing about that is unique to AI. However, it’s possible that it will become especially apparent that we are erecting all these obstacles ourselves as we observe AI getting very productive in unregulated or otherwise functional sectors.
Absolutely, we should be dismantling the clown policies proactively, but it isn’t proactive with respect to AI particularly, it’s just that we should not have clown policies in the first place.
Do you have any views about wireless power beaming, both shorter-distance charging and longer-distance transmission? It seems to me that this is a potentially underrated technology, if it can unlock the potential of other technologies that currently face energy storage or transportation constraints (EVs, robotic exoskeletons, perpetual-flight drones & aerial platforms, remote wind/solar etc).
I got interested in wireless transmission for space-based solar. A lot of people have had doubts for a long time about whether the math works for space-based solar, but both panels and launch prices have plummeted, so people are giving it a second look.
One of the things about wireless transmission that could add value to space-based solar is being able to shift output on the fly from one receiver on Earth to another on a millisecond-to-millisecond basis. I thought that was pretty cool.
I haven’t really looked at it for terrestrial applications, though.
Policy barriers aside, speaking strictly from considerations of technology and economics, what is the ideal near-term future for energy? Nuclear, geothermal, solar? Maybe even solar-powered fuel synthesis like Terraform Industries is doing? Or what combination of the above?
A very important question is how long solar prices can continue to drop.
Assuming it continues a while, I have questions about whether it makes sense to transmit electricity long distances in such a world. A lot of smart people think transmission is very important to the clean energy buildout, but I don’t know. Transmission adds a fair bit of cost, and if solar gets cheap then it might make sense to pay the rooftop premium rather than the transmission premium.
So if solar keeps dropping in price, it may make sense to have rooftop solar everywhere + off-grid solar to power industrial applications.
Gigawatt-scale nuclear I think we could do for LCOE of 2¢/kWh if the industry and regulations were not so dysfunctional. Modular reactors will always be more expensive than that (maybe 4¢ best-case scenario), but the advantage of modular is that you reach some level of scale in manufacturing and deployment, which is where gigawatt-scale has really sucked (every gigawatt plant is bespoke). Modular is also better because you don’t have to do as much transmission as in a GW-scale plant.
If we get good at drilling holes in the ground, I think 3¢/kWh almost anywhere on the planet would be a good target for advanced geothermal. Also comes with the advantage of not having to worry about spent fuels and nuclear proliferation. Geothermal is also fantastic for low-grade heat needed for certain industrial processes like paper mills.
Wind is already pretty cheap, but it relies heavily on long-distance transmission, which as I’ve noted is a headache.
For mobile applications, high-density batteries are definitely possible. Batteries that have near the energy density of liquid hydrocarbon fuels have already been made in the lab, the challenge is switching over the manufacturing system and reaching scale.
Synthesizing liquid hydrocarbons is a great solution, especially until really high-density batteries arrive. I believe I bought the first quantity of zero-carbon jet fuel in the world when I was at Boom.
So many of the regulatory/policy barriers to progress seem so daunting. Using the “Important, Tractable, Neglected” heuristic, what are the top opportunities to unblock progress? Put another way perhaps, if you were writing a priority list for an organization like the Institute for Progress or Balsa Research, what would you go after?
I kind of did this analysis in 2019 on “how to move the needle on progress” and landed on health, housing, energy, and transportation as important sectors to fix.
If you think about it in productivity terms, in general equilibrium, low-productivity-growth sectors will tend to get bloated as a percent of GDP, while high-productivity-growth sectors will tend to shrink.
I still think the 2019 analysis is basically right, although I would emphasize one particular aspect of tractability, which is having a specific solution in mind. Tom Kalil talks about this as a test of policy maturity: suppose you have a 15-minute meeting with the President of the United States, and after the meeting the President is willing to call somebody and tell them what to do. Who do you have him call and what do you have him tell them to do? Until you have an answer to that question, your policy solution isn’t mature.
I think there’s a division of labor in the policy world between the more researchy and more activist groups. The researchy people should be working to discover mature policy ideas (in the Tom Kalil sense) and then the more activist groups should be working to get them implemented.
So for the research side, who are starting out without mature policy ideas and trying to generate them, tractability isn’t really a concern, it’s more about importance. The goal is to generate something tractable. The more activist people need to think more about taking the mature policy idea and running with it, and for them, tractability (political viability, etc.) is more important starting out.
Progress is so hard to come by in the policy world that I don’t think we should disqualify anything for not being neglected. Even housing/YIMBY stuff, I’m happy for more people to go into it if it gets us over the line.
So policy researchers should work on big industrial sectors like health, housing, energy, and transportation (and major cross-cutting issues like immigration and permitting), and try to come up with mature policy ideas that increase productivity. Then the more activist groups should take the tractable ideas and amplify them and try to get them over the line.
If I’m writing a priority list for another org, the first question I’d ask is whether you want to be a more researchy org or a more activist org.
Thanks, Eli! This is a super helpful framing to me as I think about our role here at The Roots of Progress.
Follow-on question: when you say “researchy” do you mean academia—or do you mean groups in the more public intellectual policy space (think tanks) that take on more of an explainer rather than activist bend?
The latter, although sometimes they overlap with academia. For example, CGO and Mercatus publish a lot of academics and are situated within universities.
I’m Nuño Sempere, a researcher at the Quantified Uncertainty Research Institute, where I work on refining broadly utilitarian estimation methods. I have a blog here—where I post my research but also offer cancellation insurance or talk abou the joys of programming a browser in C—and a forecasting newsletter here. I learnt about this place through EA (effective altruism), which I’ve become a bit disillusioned about.
For a center hosted by a university, what cut of funding does the university normally take?
I am blessedly exempt from having to deal with any financial or management issues at the CGO, so I don’t know. We do get along with the USU administration really well, though.
There are two magic buttons, as follows, but you can only press one. Which would be better for progress and why?
We instantly get the ideal legal/regulatory/policy environment for progress, across the board (this button does not affect science or R&D)
We instantly get huge scientific/R&D breakthroughs: cure for cancer and aging, nanotech that works, fusion that works, benevolent AI (this button does not affect anything social, so all these things would face today’s regulatory environment)
Given the trade you’ve laid out, I’d take the scientific breakthroughs.
I think there is no agency to regulate nanotech, so it would be a “born free” industry, and we’d see a lot of rapid progress. Benevolent AI too. On the cancer and aging cures, yes, FDA is broken, but they’d get through approval in several years, and then we’d have them.
I do think, however, that the policy environment is worth many years of R&D breakthroughs, perhaps 10 or more. We’d get a revitalized transportation and energy industry, dirt cheap housing, better consumer health tech, and a faster rate of R&D development going forward. It wouldn’t take much unbalancing of the scales to make me flip the answer.
Such a great question, excited to see Eli’s answer.
If you were to draft a set of cause areas for the progress studies movement, what would be high on the list?
1. Deregulate land use (YIMBY stuff)
2. Make transportation insanely great: eVTOL, supersonics, small airports with minimal screening, autonomous dynamic bus service
3. Lower the cost of clinical trials and expand freedom to go around the FDA through informed consent
4. Reform permitting/abolish NEPA/end vetocracy
5. Energy abundance/fix the NRC/fix the nuclear industry/expand geothermal/deploy solar
6. Make government that works and is run by grown-ups (I am a big fan of ranked choice voting for this)
7. Big increases in immigration, with concessions to the xenophobes that immigrants probably need to speak English and get deported if they commit serious crimes
8. End make-work policies that are embedded in almost every sector
9. Make sure safety rules are at least actually adding safety instead of safety theater
Is there good writing somewhere on how to lower the cost of clinical trials 10x? If we focus on the actual cost-lowering, rather than pure deregulation, it’s a rare area where I’ve never even seen someone who seems to know what to do.
Yes, from what I hear, it seems very hard. I’d point you to some recent pieces:
https://www.statnews.com/2022/11/03/why-were-not-prepared-for-next-wave-of-biotech-innovation/
https://milkyeggs.com/biology/why-are-clinical-trials-so-expensive-tales-from-the-beasts-belly/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/27/business/paradigm-startup-clinical-trials.html
I’m also curious to know if you think that centralization, the way that other movements (I’m thinking of effective altruism) have specific cause area prioritizations that proponents tend to follow, is a good or a bad thing. In your opinion, what qualities make an effective modern movement that can actually get things done?
Great question.
I am glad the progress movement is still decentralized and organic. It’s more a community of fellow-travelers than a centralized organization setting priorities and allocating funding. I feel like I gain a lot from people in the community who are pursuing very different approaches than I am, and I don’t want that to stop.
I think being organic is better for influencing the culture in the long run. For getting specific things done, if we ever agree on what is to be done, we may need to think about some light centralization at some point.
Is there any hope that fixing the regulatory causes of stagnation is ultimately a matter of lobbying, which in turn can be viewed as a kind of “content generation”?
I think “slow” vs. “fast” is just the wrong way to conceptualize the decision/tradeoff. We should be thinking about how to steer progress and how to sequence it. “Pedal to the metal” or “damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead” is not safe, but merely slowing down doesn’t really help. We should, for example:
take whatever time is necessary (but no more than that) to do appropriate, useful safety testing on new technologies
invest in inventing safety measures, ideally in the first version of new technologies
think about what types of technologies are more likely to “favor offense” vs. “favor defense” and use that to guide our research
None of these are a simple “slow down,” except in the sense that clinical trials “slow down” drug development.
But it’s a non sequitur to say “it would have saved lives for seat belts to have been invented earlier, therefore all technology and inventions should progress as fast as possible for maximum safety.” Not all inventions are like seat belts.
Thanks for the reply!
This text is short, so more nuances could be added. But I touch on the things you mention:
I think the general angst over one technology plowing ahead much further than the rest is exaggerated:
“Of course, giving Caligula a nuclear bomb wouldn’t be great. But the risk of one technology progressing much faster than the general level of knowledge is low. Innovation depends on earlier innovation. There is a reason the Romans didn’t have a Manhattan Project. If we increase the rate of innovation in one area, it will spill over and increase innovation in other areas as well.”
David Deutsch also touches on this in a quote:
”The first flight of an airliner should not be carrying passengers. One should not trust the first predator 🐺 that seems friendly. But there is also danger from intangible enemies within, like taboos and pessimism. So one shouldn’t forgo the option to experiment with making use of the wolf. Unbeknownst to the people who first tried that, it would go on to create a new species 🦮 that could be of immense use – including guiding blind humans during the millennia before blindness is cured.”
What I try to get across is that fast progress is often described, wrongly, like you do now, “pedal to the metal.” 😀 That is often taken as an excuse to argue for slowing down or stopping progress—and that is more dangerous than trying to speed things up.
I agree that “one technology plowing ahead much further than the rest” is unlikely, but I don’t think that’s the issue.
To return to your seat belt example: seat belts were invented and widely deployed only after cars had been around for decades. Car technology got way ahead of car safety technology. That’s the sort of pattern I think we should reduce in the future.
I like the Deutsch quote and agree.
Yup, I agree. And the best way for that would have been faster progress of safety technology, IMO.
There are other analyses saying similar things about the slowdown of science, but Noah Smith argued (persuasively, to me) that this paper’s metric likely just measures changing norms around citation.
We’re set for tomorrow—table has been reserved
Just arrived! We have a table in the way back but since it’s restaurant week (which I did not realize) we may move to the bar, since they’re not doing happy hour at tables.
I think to get to the “agenda” stage of the idea machine, a key is making sure that we’re acting in the real world. We can wish upon every star that zoning laws were reformed to make it easier to build housing, or that ALARA was repealed and more sensible nuclear regulation put in its place, but those items might not be the best fits for the agenda if we’re not able to realistically achieve them. They’re hard political problems to solve that will require a lot of resources, political savvy, and likely a large coalition! And others (such as YIMBY, for housing) are likely better equipped to lead the change on them.
I think our asset, or our “brand”, is that we’re a group of people that really like technological & economic progress, and we’re interested in why it happened, how it can be replicated, and what we could do to accelerate it. That’s the kind of people that this group is going to attract. So what can we do to help these people push for a progress agenda?
I really like the idea of a career guide. That’s something actionable that we can achieve. I guess I’m biased because I’m hosting the Philly meetup tomorrow, but I also think doing those kinds of networking events are valuable ways to grow the “Progress Studies” offering and see who is invested enough in it to get it into the real world. Who shows up to these sorts of things, what they’re interested in doing, etc. informs what might be possible agenda wise—in addition to everybody present making connections that could help for scientific, entrepreneurial, or career opportunities.
I also like this forum as a way for generating ideas, exploring possibilities, and learning new things. I agree with you and Jason there as well. One of these days I’m going to do a post on Precisionism, but I haven’t made it to the Demuth museum out in Lancaster yet and want to visit before I do.
I think another value we could offer would be if we wanted to organize a bookshare of some kind. I find that the local library doesn’t have a great selection of economic history or technical books, so if that’s something that we could organize, I think people might find it valuable. I often see a book mentioned by Jason or another columnist/blogger and will buy it to read it, but then I’d be happy to loan that book out to people once I finish it. On the borrowing side, I recently had to do an interlibrary loan from Tennessee to borrow a copy of a planning standards guide I needed for a project. There’s probably other directions we could take this concept for having a library or directory of resources as well. I know some groups do things with tool shares, and it might be nice to have a “who’s who in progress studies directory” for connecting people with each other as well?
Unfortunately, all the links on RicardoHausmann.com explaining how Growth Diagnostics actually work appear to be dead links to me. Do you have another recommended source to understand exactly what growth diagnostics is and how it works? The EA forum post didn’t really seem to get into the details.
The MCC chapter on constraints analysis is here: https://www.mcc.gov/resources/story/story-cdg-chapter-3-guidelines-for-constraints-to-economic-growth-analysis
The how-to handbook is available here:
https://www.hks.harvard.edu/centers/cid/publications/faculty-working-papers/doing-growth-diagnostics-practice
https://www.hks.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/centers/cid/files/publications/faculty-working-papers/177.pdf
Thank you! I’ll have to check these out
I think these are good ideas and I too would like to see more of the kinds of things you list above.
I’d love for this Forum to serve as the first draft of a lot of this stuff. For instance, if people want to write up specific cause areas, or lists of cause areas, so we can all start discussing them, that would be great. We could create a new tag “Cause Areas” so that they are organized in one place and easy to find.
Do we want to have media that contributes to a better future? Do we want to fuel content grounded in reason, logic, and common sense?
Focus on nuclear weapons.
There is no other factor within human control that can so quickly and so decisively end our hopes for a better future. The vast majority of other subjects being discussed in “constructive journalism” are really mostly a dangerous distraction from that which will decide our future.
Happily, we seem to be emerging from climate change denial, and now pretty much the entire population is alert to this danger, and receptive to plans to address this challenge. Unhappily, nuclear weapons denial disease remains rampant, pervasive, and durable, even at the very highest levels of our society.
This claim will now be disputed in following comments. The debate may be interesting for a few days, but then it will become boring, and we’ll drop right back in to nuclear weapons denial, and sweep it back under the rug so as to return our focus to sexier topics like AI. And this is the mechanism by which the brighter future you dream of will be destroyed.
Given the pervasive nature of nuclear weapons denial, every mention of these weapons in any media is an act of constructive activism. It’s not necessary to agree with any particular point of view. Just say the words “nuclear weapons” where ever you can, and you’re making a constructive contribution.
https://www.tannytalk.com/s/nukes
Thoughtful piece—I updated a bit towards discontinuous takeoff. Thanks for sharing!
I think the best argument for abundance as a spiritual good is that it’s allowed us to widen our circle of compassion. Once we stop seeing the world as zero sum, we see that others unlike us deserve moral consideration.
What do you think Effective Altruism 1) gets right and 2) is important?
What do you think Effective Altruism 1) gets wrong and 2) is important?
Do you think defining ‘progress’ is an important part of the agenda? Or is it more of a distraction?
Far as I can tell, there are 3 different potential definitions for progress:
Essentially just technological/scientific progress
Some consequentialist-ish idea like “people are happier/wealthier”
Any change in society or technology which is not a reversion to something that has been done before
Options #1 and especially #2 leave fairly little room for discussion on whether or not any specific instance of progress is a good thing, while option #3 is much more morally neutral, but perhaps not what people have in mind when they think of ‘progress’.
yeah absolutely, but I think there has already been a consensus on this part. Generally people consider it to be 1
Interesting; since as far as I can tell, Tyler Cowen and Patrick Collison use definition #2 in the now-famous Atlantic article: “In an era where funding for good projects can be hard to come by, or is even endangered, we must affirmatively make the case for the study of how to improve human well-being.”
Maybe PS adopted definition #1 instead to avoid seeming redundant compared to EA?
yes but that was done with the assumption that the best way is to increase productivity growth
I love that this topic (and tension) is getting a little focus, but I do wish you would respond to a steel man version of the argument, rather than a quick Twitter thread—there’s great writing out there on the tension between material progress / modernity / capitalism and spiritual values / community decay / alienation, etc. Obviously, given this crowd, the point isn’t to accept or reject capitalism or material progress, but to at least engage with the best articulations of the tensions they hold with the latter three, so as to best navigate those tensions moving forward.
Besides the obvious Frankfurt School (who, understandably, are not everyone’s cup of tea), I find Hartmut Rosa’s treatment of this tension, in particular in his book Resonance: A Sociology of our Relationship to the World, excellent.
I won’t blast you with a synopsis here, and don’t expect you to read a 500+ page tome, but if the progress community ever finds enough interest to earnestly engage with this material abundance + spirituality/humanistic/community decay tension, I would be quite the eager reader.
There’s a very, very broad tradition in our society of arguing that material progress is less important than spiritual or other things, of course. Indeed, I assume that most people studying progress already hold some version of this opinion very strongly. I do. My take would be there’s little point in setting up any particular version of the thesis, because everyone can already make the argument themselves and sees Jason’s article through the lens of their own standard.
And I think Jason’s article is great in this respect!
Emerson: overrated or underrated?
Great post! I especially enjoyed the section on The spiritual boon of material abundance
[Epistemic status: medium, really not an expert]
I see that and many other criticisms as more of an indicment of the lack of progress in spirituality, which is supposed to give people purpose and comfort. The old institutions are slow at adapting to the changing world, and some of the new institutions are simply not good at comforting.
Are you excited about Charter Cities for more progress? I.e. not charter cities in developed countries as a kind of developmental anti global powerty intervention. I mean highly developed charter cities meant for rich well educated ppl to live there. Those CCs could implement all the cool progress movement ideas. E.g. they could be a heaven for biomedical companies wanting to do human challenge trials. They could test out land value tax schemes, or different voting mechanisms and other, more effective forms of government.
Rick Rubin noticing the same problem in this Conversations with Tyler, on older vs. newer music in the era of streaming.
Interesting exercise: what would Our World in Data look like as a column in that chart?
This review is fantastic, well done. I am now going to go seek out books about American government written by people in Japan or Finland or something.
This was excellent! Can’t believe I hadn’t seen it before. The curve similarity is definitely interesting. Even when the root-to-leaf link isn’t permanent, eg the S curves adding up until obsolete, as I’d looked at in this article.
Why is David Foster Wallace overrated?
What will the world look like when we get our flying cars?
Related: Does the theory that low impact regulations can have a super-additive impact on productivity hold muster? When I was reading “Where’s My Flying Car?”, the book claimed regulations reduced GDP growth by a massive amount, and I read about the foregoing theory when I went digging in the literature.
Hi Jason, I’ll take one. Thanks!
email: [edited to redact, thanks]
Also since theres a chance you’re reading this comment… would love to know your thought on Seaborg Technologies and floating SMRs in general.
Don’t know anything about Seaborg in particular. Floating nuclear is an interesting idea. I don’t know enough about the technical issues to know whether it’s practical; I’ve been told that the motion of the waves creates engineering problems. I also think the legal issues may be problematic. If you’re offshore, you might avoid the US NRC, but now you’re probably under the jurisdiction of the UN or something, which is probably worse. There’s really no way to escape regulation if you’re doing nuclear—you just have to find reasonable regulators.
This hackernews thread about working at the DoE national labs gives a positive impression of them although with some caveats
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34414527
Should modernisation theory receive more attention in critiques and apologetics of economic development?
“Theory” in general is out of style these days. Insights of modernisation theory might end up being tested, but as a “theory” I don’t think it will make a comeback. Somehow there is too much academic hyperspecialization for that to happen, and it increasingly seems like the approach of a bygone era. And to be clear, I still have some sympathies for that bygone era, even if most of its hypotheses were wrong.
Thanks for doing this!
What is the most important domain for which talent is just not very important?
Farting?
In your book on Talent you mention “crystallising experiences” in the last chapter. Do you have any ideas how people might generate these “synthetically” for themselves, I.e. get themselves to experience certain possibilities as vivid and real without any external input?
Build out your “small group” and also your mentors! Raises the likelihood of this then happening spontaneously.
To what extent is fieldwork underrated by economists? I feel it is quite so because it captures things that numbers often lose (eg nuance) and context that is hard to get without it. IMO i
t shouldn’t be the best form of evidence, but definitely a starting point in it
The researcher also learns a great deal doing fieldwork that is not learned sitting at the PC, or whatever. That makes field work all the more underrated.
How do the returns to high verbal intelligence change if AI gains the writing abilities of the median NYT opinion writer? How should people whose comparative advantage is in writing prepare for this?
Possible answer: The returns to high verbal intelligence will not necessarily fall if AI gains the writing abilities of the median NYT opinion writer, but they will become more heterogeneous and dependent on the context and purpose of writing. AI may be able to generate coherent, grammatical, and persuasive prose on a variety of topics, but it may not be able to capture the nuances, subtleties, and originality of human expression, nor the emotional, ethical, and aesthetic dimensions of writing. Moreover, AI may not be able to adapt to changing audience preferences, cultural norms, and rhetorical situations, nor to respond to feedback, criticism, and dialogue. Therefore, human writers who can leverage their high verbal intelligence to produce more creative, engaging, and distinctive writing will still have a significant advantage over AI, especially in domains that require more personal, emotional, or artistic communication, such as fiction, poetry, memoir, humor, or criticism. However, human writers who rely on conventional, formulaic, or generic writing may face more competition and lower returns from AI, especially in domains that require more factual, analytical, or informative communication, such as news, reports, essays, or reviews. People whose comparative advantage is in writing should prepare for this scenario by developing and honing their unique voice.
Unrelated to the accuracy of this, it feels ChatGPT generated. If so, we’ll played
Cowen writes...
“For a number of reasons, there is no broad-based intellectual movement focused on understanding the dynamics of progress, or targeting the deeper goal of speeding it up.”
Can you please explain why the goal should be to speed up the knowledge explosion?
We already have thousands of massive hydrogen bombs aimed down our own throats, an ever present existential threat that we typically consider too boring to bother discussing, perhaps because we haven’t the slightest clue how to rid ourselves of these weapons. And so, we’re ignoring that threat, while we race to develop AI and genetic engineering as fast as possible, new potential existential scale technologies which we also have no idea how to make safe.
Is this evidence of a species that is mature enough to benefit from ever more, ever greater powers, delivered at an ever greater pace, without limit?
https://progressforum.org/posts/zNx24zqq2kg45CuTb/our-relationship-with-knowledge
I observe more people migrating to the high-technology countries than away from them...poor countries are hardly safe and secure...
Well, nobody claimed that poor countries are safe and secure. The claim is that high technology countries are not safe and secure, and that speeding up the knowledge explosion will make them ever less safe and secure.
Trying to understand the dynamics of progress is great. If we are assuming without questioning that speeding up the knowledge explosion should obviously be our goal, then we have not yet understood the dynamics of progress.
What we are witnessing is an engineering failure of historic proportions. That is, we are failing to take in to account all relevant factors in our design of this technological society. We love the story that we are brilliant, so we cling to that, willfully ignoring that we are instead a very immature culture bordering on insane. What other word should we use to describe anyone who has a loaded gun in their mouth and is bored by the gun???
What US state are you most optimistic about, with regards to progress, development, YIMBYism, investment, higher education, and so on?
What about pessimistic?
In e.g. 50 years, what states do you think will have trended upwards vs. downwards from now?
I think all states will be much better off in 50 years time. Maybe it is the Midwest that is currently underrated? Lots of great cultural roots there.
Currently it is the moment for Florida and Texas, but I wouldn’t say I have a very specific prediction for fifty years out, that is a long time away.
The population of Florida is now 7 times larger than it was when I was born in the early 50s. A thousand people move here every day. Florida is still a place of incredible beauty...
https://www.tannytalk.com/s/nature
...but in 50 years it will likely look a lot like New Jersey. I’m happy to report that I will be dead then, and won’t have to witness the destruction of one of the most wonderful places on Earth.
Post Dobbs and the fall of Roe v Wade, what should society do about the problem of unwanted pregnancies?
Who was your mentor?
Walter Grinder was my very first mentor, I met him when I was 13 or 14 years old. He showed me what a life of reading could look like. But I’ve had many other mentors along the way, Thomas Schelling being one of the most famous of those, Derek Parfit too. Fischer Black.
I don’t have a good answer to the pregnancies question...
That’s what I thought your answer was going to be. Thanks.
Do you think is there more low hanging fruit in implementing policies that improve the plus side of Wealth Plus, or the wealth side?
What are some of your top suggestions on how society can enhance the Plus side of the equation in the current political and social climate?
At the margin, do you think developed countries like Canada would increase Wealth Plus by decreasing average annual labour hours (ie increasing statutory minimum vacation/reducing work week) ?
I see fixing mental illness as the number one priority here...that would boost both wealth and wealth plus, though probably the latter by more.
One reason I hear for pessimism is not merely Clive Thompson’s point that dystopian scenarios are easy to imagine, but that we’ve already created dystopias. It’s NOT merely imagination. We’ve already dropped atomic weapons, created murderous totalitarian governments, and starved millions of people to death through blithe mismanagement. As proof of concept such things have already happened, they could be scaled, and if they happen again, they will be bigger and badder. It’s hard for most people to imagine unknown future good things that outweigh “knowable” future horrors.
P.S. can I get a deep dive on whether the 20th century is rightly called “the bloodiest century”? It seems obviously so. But I would like to see the data sliced several different ways.
What’s the lowest-hanging fruit you see in Progress Studies? What are the research topics or programs that are sitting there, waiting on the right people? If it’s important to the answer, who are the right people?
Improving science policy? I wrote a bit more about this in another answer. Maybe Heidi Williams will lead the charge. I am optimistic.
Since writing We Need A New Science of Progress, a number of intellectuals have started to work on Progress Studies writ large. Which areas of progress do you think the movement underrates, or are in the need of more attention?
Well, it all needs more attention.
Science policy is one area that has gained in attention the most, but perhaps it is still the most underrated?
Or how about serious engagement with the histories of East Asia?
Ireland for that matter? Current Poland?
Fortunately, the Industrial Revolution is relatively well-studied, though those works should be much better know and taught more generally.
How does this square with the 2012-2022 machine learning push? The groundbreaking papers are not particularly impressive from a technical standpoint; in fact it’s a well-known meme that machine learning research is quite simple compared to other mathy academic areas. And the impact potential is far beyond any plausible predictions from 10 years ago.
Maybe this is true for most non-ML sciences? But advances in machine learning are already obsoleting decades of work in some other fields of science, and there are reasons to believe this trend will continue.
Only last year science has done several impossible things. I agree with the analyses on academic metrics, but claims about science being slow should have some slightly stronger supporting evidence.
EDIT: Oops, didn’t see the that the original date is in June 2022, when some of the supporting arguments for my case were not yet available. But the comments still stand; I do not think the assertion in the title is true in the most straightforward interpretation.
Are current US rates of growth and disruption enough to keep protectionist interest groups from outpacing innovation (#MancurOlson)? Comparing your 2003 work and present work, it seems, at least to me, that your sense of how culture works has changed, namely the extent to which culture and individuals are elastic. What’s your current view here?
Our market is large enough, and there are enough foreign sources of competition and innovation, that yes I think this will work out OK. It is just that we could do so, so much better.
The degree of federalism in the United States helps as well. I see more decisions and functions of government devolving to the states and even cities. That introduces more political competition into the American system.
Could you give a prediction of the form “in 2040, there will exist people which are more efficient at skill X than the best AI models” in which you are more confident than not? What about 2030 or 2050?
(Don’t take this in bad faith, I have no intention of going back and mocking anyone’s predictions; but there is very useful signal in correct answers and I’m curious why more people don’t offer takes on this.)
I don’t see the import of AI models as stand-alone skills, rather being integrated into workflows. So I am not sure the predictions would mean that much. There are plenty of skills (memory!) where “computers,” broadly construed, are already much better than humans.
What should we do to ensure capital allocators (VC, etc) begin to care more about stagnation? I believe we have enough evidence at this point that when interest rates are low and there are fast growing companies with 80% gross margins (a relatively ahistoric phenomenon) - many capital allocators will optimize for book value mark ups and liquidity as opposed to backing enduring productivity growth bets. Perhaps Marc Andreessen’s “It’s time to build” blog post led to an early zeitgeist shift here—what should we do next?
I think it suffices if they simply care about their profit. Ideally, VCs would speak up more for progress, but a lot of them are already pretty good on these issues. They are far from the problem. It is all the other interest groups that I worry about.
One of the consequences of the pandemic is a dispersion of talent and capital away from of the traditional regional economic engines. Steve Case documented that change in his Rise of the Rest book and you spoke on Joe Londsdale’s American Optimist podcast on how Austin maybe one of big beneficiaries of this change.
To see if this is leading to a change in regional innovation we have to be able to measure it, but as I see it the traditional measures have some large flaws.
The primary challenge is that innovation is created locally and disturbed globally. We may create an amazing invention here and its effects are felt all over the world. Most regional metrics are either inputs thought to correlate with innovation (patent volume, research papers produced, VC funding, unicorns birthed, size of specific talent pools, and so on) or broad scale economic outputs (GDP, employment growth, etc.)
Better metrics like total factor productivity are not really measured or measurable at the regional level as far as I know again due to this regional creation/global distribution tension.
How do you think we should approach this measurement challenge?
There is so much joint production I am not sure we will get so far with this. Simply the level of wages may be a start, however.
Many of the movements you are involved in and praise (e.g econ and EA) use online writing/blogging to communicate and generate new ideas.
Will this continue in recognizable form despite AIs surpassing human skill at writing? Are the young people who are investing in this skill learning how to use the hand powered loom in 1800?
The skill of the operator will remain paramount, see my book Average is Over.
I don’t view LLMs as substitutes for human beings, not for most tasks. Think of them instead as servants you can embed in your work flows. Writers and public intellectuals who are good at that will do very very well.
Of course those skilled at that task are probably a very different set of people than those who have been succeeding to date.
What role should biography play in progress studies? What do you think of the “Great Man Theory of History”? Should economists write more biographies?
Every economist should write a biography or two! Biographies cast a pretty severe light on what you can and cannot explain. Most things you cannot explain and choice is so often idiosyncratic.
The Great Man Theory seems underrated to me. Take away Napoleon, Lenin, or Hitler, and a lot seems veyr different. So maybe we should call it “The Evil Man” theory...
The good individuals matter less, at least as individuals!?
I think there are “good” people, or at least influential non-evil people, who fit the theory. Jesus is an obvious one. What about Martin Luther, Michaelangelo, Copernicus. Hero worship today is associated with tribalism but perhaps progress needs more heros and disciples?
Agree, but of course it is easier to destroy than to create...
Is cool weather an underrated factor in economic growth ? With the exception of city/states like singapore gdp per capita seems to be higher in cooler areas. If this factor has any credence will it affect your optimism about India ?
There are papers on this which I haven’t read, I would consult those most of all. India will spend a lot on A/C. Texas is doing pretty well, as is Phoenix, so I am not worried so much about heat per se.
In academia, you’ve said that “The incentive is to build a brick … not to build a building.” If the balance is off here, how could we reform academic incentives to get more buildings?
Can’t really do it! You have to hope for some crazy people with tenure bucking the system. There are always a few of those, but they will not dominate. But add to their ranks crazy untenured people who write on the internet, and then you have something real in terms of influence.
Are you more of a hedgehog or a fox? (In Isaiah Berlin / Archilochus terminology: “A fox knows many things, but a hedgehog knows one big thing.”)
Are you more of a bird or a frog? (In Freeman Dyson terminology: “Birds fly high in the air and survey broad vistas … out to the far horizon. They delight in concepts that unify our thinking and bring together diverse problems from different parts of the landscape. Frogs live in the mud below and see only the flowers that grow nearby. They delight in the details of particular objects, and they solve problems one at a time.”)
The one big thing I know is that I know many things.
And I am a bird.
Some ~12 years after the book, what are your thoughts on the Great Stagnation? (Asking more about the phenomenon of stagnation and less for thoughts on the book itself.) How has this played out? Have your predictions held up? What will stagnation look like going forward?
See this column for my take: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-12-24/2020-in-review-maybe-it-wasn-t-quite-as-horrible-as-it-seemed?sref=htOHjx5Y
My prediction in 2011 was that the Great Stagnation would end within twenty years, so far to me that is looking correct.
Preface: If we assume that a global zeitgeist of degrowth, anti-solutionism, pessimism, national tribalism, de-enlightenment, and de-globalization — creates a non-trivial risk to future human progress, then
Q: What might reasonably be done by the progress studies community to move the zeitgeist? Or is it too little, by too few, coming too late? It’s sometimes difficult not to see the entirety of the progress movement as a drop in the ocean of doom-centric media.
Progress has its own fans, namely those who drive it and benefit from it. So I think the Zeitgeist is not entirely against us. It is a better situation than it looks from the so-called “world of ideas” alone.
Is the internet and social media driving global emotion and feelings? If so, what are the main outcomes and how should we be thinking about it?
You have previously argued that envy is local (in either Average is Over or Great Stagnation), and in a recent talk (Why do liberal democracies feel stuck) you argued that the internet is a global engine for ideas more so than before. My feeling is that in the last ~7 years emotion and feelings are more becoming global due to the internet. An important point is that people celebrate wins far less than they bemoan mistakes. No one talks about how Brexit allowed the UK to get vaccines faster or have more autonomy over their energy (albeit not that impactful), however in other circumstances it could have been. That they can regulate technology less than the EU etc.
Just think of the the UK conservatives in the past 3 years.
PM Johnson: The country-wide anger at party-gate.
PM Truss: The reaction to her fiscal policies.
PM Sunak: Wasn’t going to COP27, then after outcry he did.
Irrespective of what the correct thing to do in any of those cases was, my point is that the turn arounds were driven by the percevied emotion/feelings of the population which was spread faster and more quickly than ever before. This is what I mean by global.
I think you have also mentioned that you think the US involvement in Vietnam wouldn’t have happened today with Twitter (stand to be corrected).
A relevant follow-up for this platform is how does that affect progress and how should people who are proponents of growth better present themselves and their cause to the population? A practical version of this question is: How would you run a campaign to convince the greater population to think more long term and about the importance of progress?
Certain positive-expected-value projects can be driven by capable individuals or small groups (think FastGrants, ARC, OpenAI), however there are other fundamental projects which cannot be driven by individuals/groups alone (building more housing in hubs for example).
Speaking very broadly, a lot of high-value projects require lots of autonomy for the leaders to get them done, and they have to have public support for that.
miscellaneous fun questions:
Is the best yet to come for New Jersey?
Is the best yet to come for the Visegrad 4?
Who’s the most talented Brontë sister? Best Brontë book?
Who was the most important British woman author?
Is it important for kids to play sports?
New Jersey has more talent and human capital than before, but the Northeast is much less culturally central. I would still be long New Jersey, though, for the future.
The best for Visegrad 4, for human creativity, was late 19th century/early 20th century, up through the 1930s. That will never be reattained. As for living standards—now is the peak and it will get much better yet.
I don’t love Jane Eyre, so I have to go with Wuthering Heights.
On most important, the usual answer would be Jane Austen, but how about Mary Shelley instead? More prophetic. Virginia Woolf too, I prefer both over Austen.
Maybe important to play sports for 2⁄3 of kids? But heterogeneity reigns!
Ignoring the possibility of crazy AI stuff, will economists ‘solve’ development economics in the next 100 years?
Nope. That was easy!
Development has a lot to do with culture, and “culture” as a problem never will be solved. And new technologies change which features of a country are most important for development. Will “manufacture plus export” ever be so important again as it was for Japan and Korea? Doubtful, at least not anytime soon. Poland has been going a very different route. Expect something quite different again from the parts of Africa which succeed.
Do the GPTs constitute >10% of the AI capabilities progress (set zero at just before AlexNet) necessary for automating most of the science R&D process?
Actual R&D involves so much interface with the real world, I fear that AIs will have a tough time there. So much of R&D is like “gardening.” AI will be a significant aide to us, but the humans will remain paramount in those endeavors. Important aides, but complements to us, not some means of replacing us. Thus it is hard to give a percentage.
We are not close to that in my view. Not close to ten percent even.
Dear Tyler, I have 2 related questions about developing countries.
Russia and China are considered to be the least religious countries—for example only 4 % Russians regularly go to the church. Do you think there is a connection between the lack of religion and the authoritarian form of government Russia and China seem to revert to every time they have a chance?
And another question – it seems that as soon as some developing countries arrive at some higher income levels, instead of keep improving the lives of their citizens, they try to go for some historical grandeur theme. Russia, Turkey, China, Ethiopia. Will we see the same happening in India – will they try to restore a Mauryan empire?
Russia was authoritarian in earlier times when it was also more religious. (Plus I think that number under-measures current Russian religiosity.)
Maybe authoritarian family structure is one underlying reason?
Never have been ruled by the Roman Empire also seems important?
India is already trying a version of that with Hindu Nationalism, yes.
Is the ability to automate most of the scientific R&D process a necessary component of transformative AI that meaningfully accelerates economic growth? If not, what do these intermediate abilities look like?
The short- and also medium-run impact of AI will be to dramatically improve workflows for the five (?) percent or so of those who will know how to work with it.
A long time before aggregate productivity measures as much higher! Like both computers and the internet.
The more important thing is that we now see that the key breakthroughs are possible.
What’s your guess on which will end up increasing productivity more: the internet, or the latest AI models?
I think they are complements. The internet always can take credit for the AI models, if need be. I think they are both transformative in any case, though the AI models will take a long time to boost gdp in a measurable fashion. In the short run, AI models will make the most productive people, if they are willing to experiment with AI, much more productive.
I would think that computers being orders of magnitude better than humans would diminish interest in chess, but that does not seem to be the case.
Human chess seems to be more popular than ever. What’s driving that? Is it a fad?
In fact I think computers are the main reason why the game is so much more popular. It gives almost everyone access to what is going on in the board—that was previously unavailable. and you know exactly how your favorite player is doing. Imagine if we had to watch NBA games without knowing the score! That was pre-computer chess for most observers.
We love watching the commenting computers tell us where the human is going wrong. There is a lesson in that!
Super compelling application.. all the best!
You are well-known for your love of food, cuisine and dining, both as a diner and as a cook. Has your deep relationship with food informed or substantiated how you think about progress and progress studies?
STudying food markets shows that progress is possible!
It shows the importance of immigration.
The diversity of quarters from which innovation comes.
Not all sectors are like food markets, but it is one very good place to start. And food markets give you a very good chance to chat with very smart people who are not college-educated.
“While it is easy to be pessimistic if you compare today to utopia, a much better perspective is to look at yesterday and see how far we’ve come in our journey to lift everyone from poverty.”
It’s easy to be pessimistic if we do the rational thing, and look at where we’re going next.
There is exactly no chance that we can keep nuclear weapons around forever and never use them. We don’t have the slightest idea of how to get rid of these weapons. And so we’ve decided to stop thinking about it.
Consider the man who has a loaded gun in his mouth, and is so bored by the gun that he’s rarely interested in discussing it. Would you consider this man rational? Would you hand him another gun, or give him more power of any kind? Or would you dial 911 for an emergency intervention?
This is the species which Thiel and other 19th century thinkers want to give ever more power at an ever accelerating rate. They’re insane. Just like the rest of us.
I dunno. To me, Thiel sounds like just another “expert” stuck in the 19th century. That mindset made perfect sense in the long era of knowledge scarcity. But we no longer live in that old era, but in a new era characterized by knowledge exploding in every direction. People like Thiel don’t seem to grasp that we can’t just take a philosophy from one era and slap it down on a very different era, and expect everything to continue working.
Superabundance can be erased in literally 30 minutes. A well established fact that we know intellectually, but seem completely incapable of facing emotionally. And so we just ignore it, and cling blindly to the hero stories of the 19th century.
He describes his substack this way....
“Discovering, creating, and inventing a better world through technological innovation, economic growth, and pro-progress culture.”
As a first impression, doesn’t sound promising. More 19th century philosophy. But all I know is that one sentence so, will strive for an open mind.
You write, “Again, maybe it’s the pathological contrarian in me, but I have to call bullshit on all of this—moral progress does exist, man’s nature has changed and can change again”
It depends on what time frame we’re discussing. Certainly the human body and mind can continue to evolve as it always has. But neither have changed meaningfully for thousands of years, and are unlikely to do so for a long time to come.
Man’s nature is that we are made of thought psychologically. The content of thought changes all the time, but the nature of thought does not. The content of thought reflects the nature of thought, and so we see the same kinds of themes recur over and over. So long as the nature of thought, how it operates, remains static the human condition is unlikely to change in a fundamental manner.
Does moral progress exist? To know that we’d have to remove the scientific and resulting economic progress, and see how people act without such benefits. My guess is that the starving people of tomorrow will act pretty much like the starving people of the past.
Stimulating comment! Building upon it, perhaps it could add value if we separate human nature which we are born with and likely hasn’t changed much over the last few millennia, from human nature embedded within culture and institutions and various mindsets and frameworks.
In other words, what do we mean by “human morality”? If we restrict it to our innate human nature, then it probably hasn’t made any progress. But if we look at our abilities to form larger and more constructive and cooperative networks, then the increase in moral progress has been immense over the last century or two.
Hi Roger, I agree with comments. Yes, there has been important progress within the content of thought. But because that kind of morality is just ideas, it’s not permanent or durable. It can change quickly based on particular local circumstances. It is of course nonetheless an important project to keep working on.
Here’s an example which may add to what we’re exploring.
To my knowledge, every ideology ever invented has inevitably subdivided in to competing internal factions. The universality of this experience suggests the source of the division is something that all ideologies have in common. This can not be their content, for the content of ideologies varies widely. What all ideologies have in common is what they’re all made of, thought.
And so we see many very different ideologies all follow a similar path of internal division, due to the nature of the medium in which all the ideologies exist.
Yes, cultural mindsets and institutions are impermanent and dynamic. But that implies they can improve as well as deteriorate. Twelve thousand years ago most people were part of a band with a moral circle or network of three or four dozen people. Today we see networks of cooperation that involve billions in some cases. Part of this is from the creation of rules, institutions, norms, and behavioral mindsets which allow us to increasingly solve the problems of cooperation. We have become more moral or at least our morality has become more effective and broader in scope.
Yes, culture can improve, and has. Is our morality more effective? That’s a tricky one.
Consider that we have thousands of massive hydrogen bombs aimed down our own throats, and we generally find this ever present existential threat too boring to bother discussing. It seems we have a ways to go yet in achieving effective morality.
I think we’re basically agreeing that culture can both improve and deteriorate. The history of modern Germany perhaps offers one example of that. High culture, to primitive barbarism, and then back to high culture.
Wow, there’s a lot to chew on here.
rogersbacon wrote, ”...there is something grand, something beautiful and glorious, dare I say holy, in the act of passing knowledge on to the next generation”.
The problem for progress seems to be...
KNOWLEDGE: It’s easy to pass on knowledge and build upon it generation after generation.
WISDOM: It’s much harder to pass on wisdom. We try, and succeed to some limited degree, but given that wisdom is largely a function of life experience, it almost has to be rebuilt from the ground up in each individual.
Example: while one can learn physics from a book (easy transfer) one can not learn love from a book (hard transfer).
Thus, we see knowledge developing at one speed, and wisdom developing at a much slower speed. Over time the gap between knowledge and wisdom widens.
This phenomena might be compared to giving kids driver’s licenses. At first we’re giving driver’s licenses to 17 year olds. Then 16 year olds. Then 15. Then 14 etc. The cars keep getting bigger, while the drivers keep getting smaller. As this progression unfolds, sooner or later we arrive at crash.
Agreed, well put. Not exactly the same thing you are talking about, but the framing of the “wisdom race” comes to mind—https://www.edge.org/response-detail/26687
I liked this quote from the Edge article...
“With more powerful technologies such as nuclear weapons, synthetic biology and future strong artificial intelligence, however, learning from mistakes is not a desirable strategy: we want to develop our wisdom in advance so that we can get things right the first time, because that might be the only time we’ll have.”
It reassures me to find others writing on this subject, and making this point specifically. The issue of scale changes the progress equation in fundamental ways, erasing the room for error we’ve always counted on in the past.
We are required to defeat ALL existential threats, every one, because a single failure a single time with a single threat may be sufficient to bring the entire system crashing down, making other successes irrelevant. When we see existential threats in this holistic manner, it becomes clear that dealing with particular threats one by one by one is a loser’s game, and our focus should instead be on the process generating all the technological threats, the knowledge explosion. I would define that shift of focus to be an act of wisdom.
As example, if you get puddles all around your house every time it rains, the solution is not to focus on managing the pots you use to catch this and that drip. The wise solution is to go to the source of the problem, and get up on the roof and fix the leaks.
Yup that’s the challenge :)
I suppose I would start with philosophy, with questions like....
Progress towards what?
Consider the Amish. Generally speaking, the Amish have to one degree or another opted out of technological progress. And so..
They don’t have nuclear weapons. They aren’t contributing to climate change. They don’t experience all the negative aspects of modern society that we calmly accept as being completely normal.
I’m sure this is an overly simplified view of the Amish, but I think you get the point. The experience of the Amish demonstrates that technological advances, and progress, are not automatically the same thing. In spite of their technological backwardness, the Amish have achieved a form a progress that in some respects is quite superior to our own.
Philosophy is, in part, a study of the assumptions underlying our behavior. If some core assumption is unexamined, and to some degree false, then whatever we build on top of that assumption is likely to be in some way problematic. The most efficient method of proceeding may be to examine our fundamental assumptions very carefully first, before investing vast resources in to some unexamined definition of progress.
Here’s an example. One of our most fundamental assumptions is that life is better than death. Pretty much everyone takes this to be an obvious given. And yet, there is no proof at all that this assumption is true. And so, when we spend trillions on our medical system with the goal of saving lives, we actually don’t have the slightest clue whether we’re doing the patients a favor or not.
If science is slowing down, that sounds like exactly what should be happening, so I hear this as good news.
QUESTION: Do we believe that human beings can successfully manage ever more, ever greater powers, delivered at an ever accelerating rate, without limit?
If we answer no, then we can be happy that the “ever accelerating rate” factor may be subsiding.
What seems to be missing from so much discussion of science is the understanding that human beings are a limiting factor on what can be successfully accomplished in the way of progress. It’s not science which is the limitation, but human maturity. Here’s an example to illustrate:
We currently have thousands of massive hydrogen bombs aimed down our own throats, an ever present existential threat which we typically find too boring to discuss, even in presidential campaigns when we are selecting a single individual to have sole authority over the use of these weapons.
This is the species which science is giving ever more powers.
This is great. I’m all for it. To reveal my enthusiasm I am going to throw out some timelines, ideas, and numbers here to keep your creative juices flowing. Feel free to disagree and quibble.
Creating a core team of 3-6 people. Putting in place a methodology and data collection plan. 500 hours.
Visiting all 10 locations with team plus tech crew and equipment. 1 week of work at each location. Cost: $80,000 − 120,000
Editing and post-production: 500 hours.
additional costs: various salaries contracts. Total: $100,000???
Do it twice.
I think I’d definitely want enough data for a basic VR “take a walk in this area” product (for if such things ever become ‘a thing’). I’d also scan the area, assuming permission like an archaeological site to make 3-d reconstructions of it simple. Collecting information on professions and income would also be helpful in the ten year comparison.
Some random thoughts.
Hello, I’m Page Baldwin, historian and software designer, in that order. I studied history in undergraduate and graduate levels, but am now paid to design software for the contruction and manufacturing industries. I’m an amateur at most things, interested in all things, and look forward to learning from all of you.
Hi all, I’m Nathaniel. I’m a data scientist and health policy researcher in DC.
As I’ve published more in the academic literature, applied for research funding, and subjected myself to pre-publication peer review, I’ve seen just how suboptimal these mechanisms for doing science are. Reading about the surprisingly shallow history of scientific publication has helped me to feel like I have some agency in changing how it’s done. My main interests within progress studies are thus around meta-science and exploring new ways of prioritizing and rewarding research.
I enjoyed your piece, Tony.
I hadn’t heard of the “Ratchet, Hatchet, Pivot” before. I really like it for intra-ecosystem communication.
I also love these questions: “What has gone right and why, what is going wrong and why, and what can be done to overcome the problems facing humanity?”
You can swap humanity for “my life,” “my family,” “my community,” “my country,” etc for a universally useful exercise.
On a separate note, your piece resonated because something I’m trying to interrogate for myself is also what you seem to be thinking about: what is the role of media in advancing progress?
I have a sneaking suspicion that part of the reason why most optimistic media usually(?) doesn’t do well is because it’s not tied to a particular theory of change.
I imagine most people wondering: “Cool, I’m glad to know that this cool invention is being built. But what exactly does this have to do with me?”
I suspect that media that feels like media that supports the growth a movement with clear and exciting goals could get traction.
I’ve seen some progress-adjacent YouTube channels do really well roughly targeting a niche of people who want to electrify their house, so they like to be up to date on new energy / storage inventions.
And I predict that I would love to follow media covering the journey of a group trying to get some progress-related legislation passed.
Movement media.
I’m not sure there’s room for general purpose optimistic, progress-oriented media beyond the current players right now. But I could be wrong!
What do you think?
Brilliant.
Hey Kris!
Some other books I’ve been looking at in my reading that get at this even if they are not about running labs well.
Phage and the Origins of Molecular Biology
Watson’s Double Helix
Feynman’s CalTech Oral Histories that cover most of his career
Some of the Chapter’s in Philip Alexander’s book on MIT
I heard from Michael Nielsen that Barish’s oral history was supposed to be frank and good but have not read it yet
If those aren’t quite what you’re looking for just lmk why and I might have some others!
Just the person I was looking for—thanks Eric! I’ll try and get through these before we meet.
Very interesting topic. How widespread is the “pull” idea? When I first read about it in an essay from you a while ago, I thought it was kind of a niche view, but I’ve been reading Robert Allen’s The British Industrial Revolution in Global Perspective and he seems to have the same view, so maybe not so niche?
Wow I should really login more often. 9 months late, but here goes. Yes, it is definitely a position that already existed, as per Allen. But the push thesis is by far the most popularly known one, and one that I think a lot of historians are still very sympathetic to, having been brought up on the Marxist historians (who were often very good, but had some blindspots)
I’ve only read a little bit of it so far, but maybe “Pieces of the Action” by Vannevar Bush?
Thanks Erik!
Really interesting twitter thread on the thermodynamics of thermal energy sources(like coal and nuclear). The tldr is that at reasonably large scales (like 10x current energy) thermal energy sources would lead to ~0.3 deg C warming, which implies potential thermodynamic limits to energy growth (and the importance of renewable energy which is non-thermal e.g. solar, wind)
Interesting thread, but I draw a somewhat different conclusion: in the long run, we need a heat-management system for the Earth (and eventually, other planets). Managing CO2 is good but insufficient.
There are also some replies contesting the original claims, e.g.: https://twitter.com/EnergyJvd/status/1608898973313699840
I agree here that PS is more convincing, and that EA is more actionable. But EA is effective at creating institutions around action (giving time and money) such as 80000 hours/Givewell. I think EA also makes a stronger claim on individuals’ duties compared to PS because PS is focused on long term economic growth—a fluid goal we do not yet know how to achieve.
On the strength of EA.
On the fluid, uncertain nature of achieving economic growth:
I’m a relative newcomer to progress studies. My first impression is that Progress Studies is a research agenda aimed at academic researchers without much room for actions by non-wealthy (money), non-academic (time in the form of research). Perhaps knowledge production is an elite activity (with support by PS popularizers (time)).
On knowledge production as an elite activity:
I think the non-rival, zero marginal cost nature of ideas indicates that PS could do a lot of good without needing the social participation of a great many people outside of academia. It would be unfortunate if this is the extent of the ecosystem though. I’m still looking for ways to donate my time to PS so if anybody has any good ideas, I would love to hear it.
A lot of (most?) progress studies work is being done outside academia, or on the border of academia, not in proper journals and peer-reviewed publications. My own work is for a general audience. Anton Howes left academia to write for a general audience. Eli Dourado is at a think tank that is affiliated with a university, but he writes for a general audience. Brian Potter came from industry and writes for a general audience. Etc.
See this answer in my AMA about how people can contribute: https://progressforum.org/posts/ew6LJbcoLm8PjJLbX/ama-jason-crawford-the-roots-of-progress?commentId=ibns2uXfbyHXrdkay
It’s a great newsletter—always a quick, optimistic, and informative read! I’m a lawyer and have really enjoyed the posts on geothermal and nuclear energy (and all of the pending policy and regulatory issues).
Hi Jason, I would love a free subscription! My email is eth a t 2120insights.com.
Just received it, thank you!
This is a narrow nationalistic narrative. What about the rest of the planet?
Hi Michael, glad you asked. Here’s my response: https://garysheng.substack.com/p/manifesto/comment/11333722
Interesting thought about the market here. It seems though that the Atlantic and Vox have a pretty good bead on that. Between Derek Thompson etc. and Kelsey Piper etc. I think one thing we can do is augment their efforts and contribute to those already established and successful platforms, as well as Works in Progress.
I am not aware of the financial situation of any of these outlets, but I don’t see a market hole for another one. This might be good advice though for other current operations like Warp News.
Two of the other major requirements for the Modern Breakthrough (McCloskey’s term I believe) which I have seen in most profiles of the phenomenon (I have read dozens) have been:
The open nature of three plus new continents with very few people (after disease wiped them out). This not only provided 20X the room to grow in amazingly fertile areas, it also provided an influx of better staple crops (potatoes and corn), timber, and the dynamic ability to establish hundreds of new statelets. This was both a favorable condition leading up to the IR, it also helped it reduce Malthusian constraints. This was a one time only opportunity.
Constructive competition between states. With the advents of gunpowder and cannons, Europe entered into an arms race not just toward military strength, but toward superior organizational problem solving ability. The leaders (first the Dutch, then the Brits, then Americans) were those states that were able to foster creativity and cooperation with less sclerosis and rent seeking. This led to the ascendency of representational government, freed markets with finance and corporations, and so on. IOW, it was an arms race toward organizational effectiveness. Liberal democracies won, barely.
These two forces actually self reinforced each other as did the transition to fossil fuels, machines, science and markets.
If I was to try to oversimplify the Modern Breakthrough to one phrase, it was a phase transition to a higher level of network integration and coordinated problem solving. Consider this explanation a work in progress, so to speak.
“But if progress is a primarily matter of agency, then whether it continues is up to us.”
It isn’t so easy. The problem is it is not up to individual agency, but the cumulative dynamic equilibrium of 8 billion people along with a healthy dose of luck and contingency. I strongly agree that we saw unprecedented amounts of progress over the past two centuries, but there is no guarantee it will continue.
That said, there are things we can do to increase the likelihood of progress. These include better understanding how progress works, and by spreading out our bets so that all our eggs aren’t in one or two baskets.
Great points here, Jason.
Can easily apply your framework to why alternative meats that have been “invented” will still take years to change the world, because of cost, social acceptance, regulations, scaling issues, quality (taste), accessibility at restaurants, etc.
Also, this is too true...
I’m Karthik, a second year PhD in economics at Berkeley. My current work is at the intersection of development, climate change and international trade. I would like to work on growth/innovation, but I haven’t had any particular insights there yet :)
I wouldn’t say I’m totally sold on progress as my #1 priority; I have attachments that make me focus more on catch-up than expanding the frontier. But I’m certainly convinced that it’s important.
In keeping with that, my recommendation is Technology and Underdevelopment, by Frances Stewart. Even if you aren’t interested in development, it has a very lucid discussion of what technology is and what improving a production process really means. It challenged a lot of assumptions for me.
In 1991, economic historian John Nye published an article called “Lucky Fools,” which I wrote about in the wake of the dot-com bust (remember that?): https://vpostrel.com/articles/a-vital-economy-suffers-fools-gladly
The paper is hard to get online, so I’ll quote myself:
Suppose we think of “the entrepreneur as the valiant, but overoptimistic investor rather than the heroic seer,” he wrote. In this story, entrepreneurs miscalculate their odds of success. They start more businesses than they should, but those mistakes lead to social benefits....
If the few big wins cancel out the many losses, starting a business would be a risky, but rational, bet—the sort of investment a “cautious businessman” might make. But Professor Nye argued that the wins and the losses probably don’t cancel out. Even the biggest winners don’t make enough money personally to cover the losses of all the individuals who went into businesses that failed.
The big winners are usually people who, based on rational calculations, shouldn’t have bet their time, money and ideas. They overestimated their chances of striking it rich. But they were lucky and beat the odds.
Even more important, the lucky fools create huge spillover benefits for society: new sources of wealth, new jobs, new industries offering less-risky opportunities, new technologies that improve life. Entrepreneurship does generate net gains, but most of those gains don’t go to the risk-takers. The gains are spread out to the rest of us. Capitalism, in this view, works by exploiting the capitalists themselves.
“We depend upon people continuing to open up new businesses for the success of industry and of the economy and for our health and well-being,” Professor Nye said in an interview. “But on the whole it probably doesn’t make sense for the average person to open up a business. Hence, the lucky-fools phenomenon.”
Sebastian I am. An entrepreneur, pedagogue, and two-time poetaster. I started a hybrid school which meets in person three days per week. My original training was in liberal arts, specifically classical languages and philosophy, which give me a rich repository of historical examples and uses of the subjunctive should the need arise. I moved into education after college, going to Finland to study and compare educational systems. I discovered game theory and economics and the history of math and science in 2016. I became Cowen-pilled in 2018.
I have written on education, pedagogy, curriculum, AI, and deliberate practice. I have a keen interest in talent and fostering individual development, I am also passionate about the intersection of “our way of thinking” and aesthetics.
https://mobile.twitter.com/GrandBastion https://sebastiangarren.com/
I edit a lot of people’s work in my free time. Right now I am giving feedback and editing a colleague’s history textbook likely to be published in 2025.
My current big project is to get a website off the ground which offers a progress studies philosophy of education. I will share the beta version by February.
I have long been involved in the rationalist community under the name JohnBuridan—some of my essays are there.
Isn’t this already captured by the heuristic of executing ideas based on their expected value? If the potential impact of an idea is large enough, a sober accounting of all the barriers won’t actually stop EV-minded founders from working on them. “Workability” in general isn’t a clean concept; what matters is that an idea’s probability of success is enough to be worthwhile given its impact if it succeeds.
I appreciate this. Let me provide a thought on how to respond to a certain type of critique: the small market of young people who can get engaged in this. I think some people, especially young people, who are not naturally tech people have an aversion to thinking they can or should do anything tech related. Part of the issue is that what motivates them is not the underlying tech but aesthetically great consumer products. Art, music, shows, video games, sports, outdoors, religion, and most importantly friends and people. So how do we motivate these natural affections into innovation, which is far less a natural activity?
One way is provide not merely a vision of tech like this, which appeals to fixing problems, optimism, true patriotism, and analytic thinking, but also to have some vision of a personally meaningful life. Now that’s hard, since everyone has their own ideo of what a good life consists in. But in each context and subculture the “progress studies foundational tech” view will have to adapt a message to fit the terminal goals of the audience.
I’m working on such a framing for education that provides a broader view of how tech fits into a good life. (Website should be up next month). The tradeoff is that I commit to more value assumptions that others might not share. But to bring others into a view, you need to put some meat on the bones. The structure of the idea must be embodied in a culture… And culture is always somewhat particular.
What I like about your post is how particular you get. That packs a powerful punch.
Hi Sebastian. Yes—this is a great challenge. And I’d love to see your website when it’s up!
Thanks for the post. Definitely a nice compact mind-expander. The dimensions you mention are familiar as major themes writers repeatedly underscore. I always remember Carlota Perez’s framing of history as a series of revolutions/waves each of which is about the rise of 2 or 3 technologies in https://www.amazon.com/Technological-Revolutions-Financial-Capital-Dynamics/dp/1843763311, e.g. railroads and steel.
Thanks. Great links, including great to find Mathias Sudin.
Great post. I really like your section on what distinguishes unblocking from a blanket interest in deregulation! I’ve been searching for these paragraphs for years :-)
Another difference between the two approaches, I think, is that progress toward abundance gets made when a cost-benefit analysis finds an opportunity. There are a tiny number of deregulatory changes that have very strong cost-benefit analyses that we all talk about repeatedly (building more housing, more immigration, allowing geothermal to have the same carve-outs as oil and gas drilling, etc). In contrast, the blanket deregulator that you might find at the CATO institute or some such place often argues that deregulation is by default good.
“They are full of optimists who understand that their optimism is self-fulfilling only if tied to thoughtful collective action. A different kind of activism that prioritizes building over talking. An activism that can inspire and unite across differences.”
Yes! Thank you for sharing so passionately this vision of a humane, dynamic, flourishing America. I am joining my voice with yours!
Appreciate your kind words!
Strong piece. I love the art. It really enhances the message. It’s interesting that you make it America-centric. This kind of stuff tends to be very global. I think it makes sense as a way to make the project a little more tightly scoped.
I like that you present both a worst-case future and a best-case future. It’s more engaging than a simplistic techno-optimistic vision. It creates a narrative of a grand challenge that needs all the help it can get. Overall, I like how it’s a very grand vision, but it is grounded in an array of concrete actions and specific areas to focus on.
I really appreciate the kind words, Coleman. Means a lot.
Glad you got a lot out of the art. Very intentionally created + placed.
And yes, the problem with “techno-optimism” is that it loses people immediately by communicating a sense of naivety about how challenging building a better future really is.
Finally, yes, the America-centricity is mainly about tightening the scope. Here are some other reasons I share in the comments of the original posting.
I’m Alexander. I’m a software engineer who loves economics. I don’t have an official credential as my major was in computing, but I enjoy reading economics, and do it almost daily. It’s my favourite nonfiction genre. I’ve read and enjoyed Cowen, Stiglitz, Caplan, Hanson, Banerjee and Duflo, etc. I’ve taken one economics class under Borland, who’s done some work on economic progress, such as showing that learning-by-doing plays a role in the evolution of countries to greater specialisation in production (Yang and Borland 1991).
Some of my favourite economics books include Stubborn Attachments by Cowen, Creating a Learning Society by Stiglitz and Poor Economics by Banerjee and Duflo. I find myself more interested in cutting-edge growth than catch-up growth, and would like to understand how cutting-edge growth works, and how we can sustain it.
I’m interested in shaping my career to have marginally more impact on economic progress than I currently do. I plan to do that by working on building a new vertical rather than working in a competitive space with many slightly differentiated alternatives. More competitive markets, with many firms, are likely to be less innovative.
In many discussions about economic progress, concerns around safety and sustainability were raised.
I really liked how Tyler Cowen used the phrase “sustainable economic growth” in Stubborn Attachments to encompass concerns around safety and sustainability. My view is that progress which inevitably leads us off a cliff isn’t real progress because over some time interval it approaches zero.
I find that framing progress in terms of resource efficiency to be useful. A lot of people equate economic progress with an image of factories spewing smoke into the atmosphere. However, progress to me is about using our scarce resources more efficiently, and is thus inherently about sustainability.
Throughout the history of economic progress, we have become increasingly capable of creating more economic value using less scarce resources. E.g. today’s cars, stoves, computers, lightbulbs, generators, motors, etc. are more efficient than their predecessors. In my view, our goal here is to extend this trend into the future, e.g. by creating fusion reactors that produce one kilowatt hour for 5% the price it costs today, and by creating computer algorithms that increase the efficiency of our scarce labour force and so on.
Is it too parochial to equate economic progress with resource efficiency? Or does it make some sense?
Efficiency is a dimension of progress, but it is only one dimension. Sometimes we make progress by improving the power, speed, or throughput of our machines or processes. Not all improvements are efficiency improvements. But over time, higher efficiency is one of the big trends of industrial progress.
I agree that anything that leads us off a cliff, that is, leads us to some disaster for humanity, is not progress.
But the problem with the concept of “sustainability” is: what are you trying to sustain? Our goal should be sustained progress, sustained economic growth, sustained improvements in human well-being—not sustaining indefinitely the use of some particular technology, which is in fact stagnation, the opposite of progress.
We have sustainable progress not by using “sustainable” resources, but by switching to new, much more abundant resources when old ones are running out—as we switched from whale oil to petroleum, or from ivory to plastic, or from manure to synthetic fertilizer. More here: Unsustainable
See also: A dialogue on growth, progress, and “sustainability”; Reframing “sustainability”
Thank you Jason. That’s a very thoughtful response. I will check out those recommendations.
Fine article overall, but starting from what srikes me as a strawperson argument does not appeal to me:
I’m a very casual reader in this area but this strikes me as at best very outdated. To not get laughed at in coversation, or to be read even for popular audiences, one for a long time has had to acknowledge that the causes and dates of the IR are uncertain and many, and posit something complex and overlooked, certainly not steam and coal. Even the English Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution more or less reflects this. I’m probably missing something though, so curious what that is or why you took this approach?
I’d enjoy a pointer to that argument. Glancing at https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/people/sites/allen-research-pages/ I’m not sure which paper it would be. Skimming his powerpoint on the British Industrial Revolution which I’d assume would be somewhat of an overview I see that cheap coal is mentioned—as a factor in increasing British wages—and the conclusion about the causes of the IR does not mention steam or coal (though British wages creating incentive to invent are) and are about as diverse and complex as I’d expect (and note the presentation is from 2006, presumably reflecting research from several years prior).
p.s. So that my first comment here does not read soley as a gripe, I’m a fan of progress [studies] and am glad this forum exists, I applaud your intellectual entrepreneurialism.
I think the main statement of Allen’s argument is his book The British Industrial Revolution in Global Perspective. Here’s a summary article he wrote: “Why was the Industrial Revolution British?” You could also check out Scott Alexander’s review of his book Global Economic History: A Very Short Introduction.
In the first book mentioned above, Allen states: “I do not ignore supply-side developments like the growth of scientific knowledge or the spread of scientific culture. However, I emphasize other factors increasing the supply of technology that have not received their due…” But when his argument gets condensed, the factors other than the ones he focuses on (high wages and cheap energy) tend to get dropped.
As to your first point, I didn’t say “all discussion”, just “too much”…
Hi Gary, what’s your relationship to the “Foundational Tech Ecosystem”? I have a startup project that seems like it would fit into this bucket (making land use codes/zoning easier to navigate for developers & RE professionals) and would be interested in connecting with others in this ecosystem. Thanks!
Hey Erik—I’m mostly just trying to manifest it into existence at this point. Would love to connect. You can DM me on Twitter https://twitter.com/garysheng
One possible story is wider-spread literacy, (cheap paper, cheap printing) followed by obsessive note-taking, letter writing, and proto-bureaucratic thinking. I’m reading the history of the Jesuits right now, and it is clear that the entire endeavor is printing press + cheap paper = new social movement. Could we think of “science” and “practical tinkering” as two of these new social movements which yielded a lot of return?
I like this.
To speak more generally about what I think you’re pointing at, step function improvements in communication + coordination tech seems to be essential to breakthroughs in other kinds of tech.
A lot of people point at the existence of Four Industrial Revolutions so far:
First Industrial Revolution: Coal in 1765
Second Industrial Revolution: Gas in 1870
Third Industrial Revolution: Electronics and Nuclear in 1969
Fourth Industrial Revolution: Internet and Renewable Energy in 2000
I’m wondering if any of these would have taken off at a global scale without the invention of the...
Postal system in the 1700s
Electric telegraph + industrial printing presses
Radio, TV, and telephone
E-mail and all the different chat and collective intelligence tools that have emerged
To reference Anton Howe’s piece from earlier this year, innovation doesn’t seem to be human nature.
Perhaps the proliferation of tech that sufficiently spreads inspiring ideas—like “XYZ is possible!”—is what leads people to decide to innovate anyway, against their conservative nature.
Yes, any major improvement in a fundamental area—not only in communication, or more broadly in information technology, but also in energy, manufacturing, materials, or transportation—will have ripple effects throughout the entire economy.
I think that’s a little too reductionist. CACE: CHANGE ANYTHING CHANGE EVERYTHING. It is certainly true, but trivially true. The question is more like how much does a change in literacy result in a change in technology, rather than are the two related. Basically everything is related within the topics of science, innovation, and the intellectual life.
I take Gary’s point to be relative. Were communication advancements necessary, while obviously not sufficient, prerequisites for the energy revolutions which followed? Can we make a causal diagram which flows from advances in communication in the 17th century and 18th century to advances in technology?
Personally I’d be extremely surprised if it were the case even a diminished form, but it’s a very interesting hypothesis to try and disprove.
I asked a question via this forum’s Messages feature. I am hoping you saw it.
(It is an entirely within-bounds question)
Great post. Seems like things in New York are turning in the right direction, and I’m impressed by your optimism. Hochul quoting Hseih and Moretti is pretty great!
Do you have any recommendations for low investment, high impact ways of reducing NIMBY power that many people might not be aware of? Either in New York, or generally in American cities. In my experience with YIMBY groups, it’s difficult to get more than a a few people to show up for an event. If those people don’t feel like they’re accomplishing much, they tend to get bored and do something else—reducing the chance they show up for the next one. Our housing issues in Philly (where I’m located) are not so bad yet that people need to get involved, so there’s much more apathy than in high-cost places like NYC or SF. But if there’s something impactful that we can do with a just few people then I want to help to organize it!
I don’t really have any recommendations for low investment / high impact, just high investment / high impact. I think the nature of the problem “get people to do what is required in local government to reduce NIMBY power” inherently requires a lot of effort to do well. And the pre-requisite is educating people. That’s why one of the keystones of Maximum New York is my class, The Foundations of New York.
In general, I think it’s relatively easy to get people to show up to civic/government things if they really understand how the government works, the organizer keeps the environment chill/fun, and each individual can connect showing up to concrete longer term change. (This is part of what I call the “buddies and pals” theory of political change. It works!)
But the hard work that precedes this easy option is actually educating people to a pretty high level, at which point they possess the psychological capability of being intrinsically interested in government. You don’t really have to force them to do anything at that point, they’ll want to.
As far as organizing something in Philly: I don’t know the particulars of its governmental structure and relationship to Harrisburg as well as NYC/Albany. If I wanted to get a group together in Philly, I’d first find a cool story of relatively recent, impressive change that’s occurred in that system, and then write a post that says something like “let’s do this again, good change is possible!” That grounds the meetup with a concrete example of good change, and gives people something to grip as they ascend the education cliff, which I think is vital to civic motivation. (And political pedagogy is its own separate challenge for instructors and civic group leaders.)
In Superabundance, we try to explain the issue. Please let me know if you disagree:
In fact, most people don’t invent or innovate anything. In their 2018 paper “Did Humans Evolve to Innovate with a Social Rather Than Technical Orientation?,” University of Queensland psychologists William von Hippel and Thomas Suddendorf noted a British study showing that only 6 percent of people reported modifying or innovating a product in the past three years. The share of innovators was even lower in other countries (e.g., 5.4 percent in Finland, 5.2 percent in the United States, and 3.7 percent in Japan).
Those low numbers may seem strange, given that human achievement is largely measured by technological advancement. But, as we explained in Chapter 7, human evolution is defined by social, rather than technical, innovation. Figuring out how to throw a stone is a technical problem, but using stones to ward off predators requires a social solution (i.e., coordinated bombardment). Homo erectus invented tools that were superior to those produced by its ancestors, but the division of labor, which improved the manufacture of those tools and enabled our ancestors to hunt large animals, was entirely social. Finally, fire increased our capacity to extract calories from food, but without using the former for social gatherings, we would never have developed the rich and diverse cultures that made it possible to accumulate knowledge. Technology makes our lives easier, but the success of our species is contingent on our ability to cooperate and organize as a society.
Moreover, since the evolutionary fitness of individual humans is based primarily on their ability to cooperate, most people choose a social solution over a technical one when confronted with a problem. If you need to put sunscreen on your back, it’s easier to ask your friend to rub it in for you than to MacGyver your own lotion-rubbing apparatus. The only reason not to ask for help would be that you didn’t have any friends around or—and this is crucial—that you had a unique personality characteristic that made asking for help unappealing.
Less social individuals appear to be more likely to invent a technical solution rather than a social one, which makes intuitive sense. People who would prefer to solve a problem by themselves would be more likely to invent something. Besides intuition, lots of data suggest a negative correlation between sociality and technical innovation. “Engineers and physical scientists show higher levels of autistic traits (one of which is diminished social orientation) than people in the humanities and social sciences,” von Hippel and Suddendorf noted. “Unsurprisingly, engineers and physical scientists are also more likely than people in the humanities and social sciences to hold patents and are also more likely to innovate products for their own use. As a notable example, Silicon Valley is a hotbed of technical innovation and also features an unusual concentration of people on the autism spectrum.”
Hello everyone, I am a little late on this so this may go unread.
Anyway, my name is Zachary. I graduated university recently with a degree in mathematical economics, and I now work in data analytics for a luxury retail firm. My long-term career interests revolve around computational science, probably in a field related to economic development/urban science. I’m now working towards these goals by taking further courses in information science and mathematics—although I have a long way to go!
Last year, I was taking a course on historical economic growth, and learned about the core concepts that helped our kind escape the Malthusian trap and achieve accelerating economic growth. It quickly became apparent to me that we should aim as a species to continue achieving this rapid growth, while also remaining cognizant to growth that aligns well with liberal values. Through ourworldindata.com and other forums like EA/LW, I became aware of Jason and the wider movement focusing on Progress Studies, and instantly became interested. Now that I have (slightly) more free time in my life, I’m excited to learn and contribute as much as I can!
For other aspiring policy hobbyists:
A lot of changes at the legislative level are non-obvious, because stuff gets hidden away in huge bills ostensibly about something else. For example: The National Defense Authorization Act Contains AI Provisions
My understanding of the last 10 years or so of policy is wide agreement that this is both the easiest way to get small changes made when you want them, and the hardest to stop when you don’t, which is why the US government shuts down periodically.
Most of the executive details can actually be influenced by well informed private citizens with no special access whatsoever, because regulatory agencies have public comment periods in the US. There was one for AI standards by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, for example.
Naturally most of the public comments for this kind of thing are coordinated by lobbyists instead of actually being comments from the public, which makes a public comments a natural target for coordination effort from the Unblock.
Hi everyone. I’m Gary Sheng.
If I were to boil down who I am into one sentence, it’s that I am an US-based technologist and civic entrepreneur dedicated to building and evangelizing tools, systems, and movements that accelerate human and planetary flourishing.
I co-founded Civics Unplugged and Dream DAO, which train Gen Z civic innovators. I was honored as Forbes 30 Under 30 for this work.
I am currently focused on supporting Gitcoin DAO and various projects related to leveling up America with foundational technology.
I don’t know if there was one moment that got me into the “progress” space, but I’m obsessed with the idea of the US breaking free from the grips of doomerism and stagnation and achieving a new Golden Age. We have the most talent and resources in the world. If we can’t do it, that doesn’t bode well for humanity.
Connect with me on Twitter at https://twitter.com/garysheng.
Really wonderful piece, Sarah.
I appreciate you connecting dots and helping me see the coherence across emerging thought leadership.
I also appreciate you pointing out that there is a difference between libertarianism and unblocking supply. Important nuance that could be easy to miss.
I’m wondering: do you consider market concentration to be a meaningful blocker to supply, and anti-trust to be an unblocker?
Another framing is that X only works on easy-to-justify “lean ideas.” Which is entirely rational from a business perspective. So maybe it’s less / not just naïveté but simply an inability to legibly justify an idea. You could call that naive I suppose.
https://benjaminreinhardt.com/efficiency <— also inspired by talking to Astro 😂
In the chart “Trends in Nondefense R&D by Function”, I just can’t understand why we spend so little on energy research. We spend less on energy than on space. It just seems illogical to me.
Hello,
My name is Lap Gong Leong. Before discovering Progress Studies, I was an aimless student at Borough of Manhattan Community College. One day, I stumbled upon Jason Crawford’s blog through Eli Dourado’s Twitter feed. Jason’s alluring and descriptive writing style converted me to the Progress Studies creed. Unlike Effective Altruism, liberalism, and conservatism, Progress Studies is a distinctively optimistic and genuine belief system. It is compatible with different ideologies and focused on improving the present and the future. For what it’s worth, it also makes for great fiction.
I am currently working on a manuscript, but will hopefully write more stories about technological change and increasing productivity.
If anyone wants to collaborate, you can write to me at leonglapgong@gmail.com
Taleb writes the following for a hypothetical National Entrepreneur Day:
”Most of you will fail, disrespected, impoverished, but we are grateful for the risks you are taking and the sacrifices you are making for the sake of the economic growth of the planet and pulling others out of poverty. You are at the source of our antifragility. Our nation thanks you.”
Rewarding innovators with non-economic goods just for trying.
I think there’s a strong case that people exploring innovation in a startup way, including those who fail, should be driven in a semi-irrational way like war heroes or martyrs. Dedication is good for success, especially if the people in question are not dependent on zero-sum resources and society as a whole can afford to have multiple competing crazily driven people.
Yes, there are benefits to trying new hard things that are not captured by the entrepreneur, so we should want them to try even when the cost/benefit to them is marginal or even somewhat under water.
I agree with the gist of this but would formulate it differently. It’s not about naivete, foolishness, or emotion. It’s about vision.
Bezos once said he would keep funding a project as long as it had one high-judgment champion. Of course, that leaves open the meta-judgment of who is high-judgment, and then it allows them to be a champion without having a solid “rational” case for the project.
NYC Housing policy is at a turning point:
The American political system is far more functional than most people would guess, particularly when you zoom in to various states and cities. New York City and State are seemingly on the cusp of a housing policy revolution, and there’s no better time to get into politics here if you value housing abundance.
An NYC with lifted growth controls would be transformational, and I think most people are sleeping on it. I wrote the case for New York housing optimism here. The past month has been truly remarkable, and more people need to know about it.
Cross-post that essay here as a linkpost!
I’m Daniel Golliher, the founder of Maximum New York; my goal is to change New York City (and state) politics/law so that it can grow quickly and build things again—housing and transit chiefly, but not exclusively. Allowing NYC to grow again would have profound impacts around the country and world, and its growth drove immense progress in the past. We can have that again.
I also work to make sure people understand how functional our current governmental system actually is. One of the keystones to MNY is my class, The Foundations of New York. Most people are stuck in a cold-start trap with regard to learning about effective political work, and I fix that by providing a rigorous introduction to NYC government, law, and politics. My goal is to bring more minds online to work in the political arena. MNY is about a year old, but already has some great results.
You can find me on Twitter here—looking forward to meeting more of you.
What happened, to silence Patrick from this AMA?
I’m trying to devote approximately an hour a day as forecast, but the specific timing is a bit tough this week.
Ok, sorry. I worry.
I notice that there’s nothing at http://vaccinateca.com currently. Do you plan to point to your oral history? Maybe list the volunteers?
sigh DNS issues, I swear. (It is designed to redirect to vaccines.gov, which seems to be the best thing for patients and therefore what we should do.)
Have recent layoffs in tech at all affected your view on the future of the industry?
Not materially.
You seem talented at making statements that are both deniable and very clear to your target audience. Was this a skill that you deliberately practiced, were you naturally good at it, or did you pick it up some other way?
For example, while running VaccinateCA, I could easily intuit your opinion on public Health as a field, but I don’t recall you every saying anything explicitly negative during that time. I also vaguely remember some comment you made about a “certain monopsonistic firm in Nagoya” that you didn’t name because, because… it would be impolite(?), but that every salaryman would instantly recognize. I figured it out, but it seemed unusual to deliberately not name a company out of politeness, while also making it very clear.
I was a Japanese salaryman during my formative years. This is the way salarymen talk, and sometimes it is diagnosed by people who do not understand it as e.g. duplicity or unwillingness to say what we mean, when it is more often just a culturally-inflected execution on saying something which is absolutely unambiguous to its target audience but not socially ruinous.
No Japanese salaryman needs you to spell out the identity of a large automobile manufacturer near Nagoya; literal children know what that must mean. But salarymen understand, and are frequently not merely participants in but active proponents of, a values system in which one must not make trouble for firms with which one was previously affiliated.
Do I engage salaryman mode intentionally sometimes for tactical reasons? Absolutely. For example:
Yes, you recall correctly. I would be negatively surprised if there was a single public statement I made anywhere between Day 0 and Day 200 which could be quoted in a news article as a criticism of e.g. the government. Being quoted in the news article as being critical of the government was, I perceived, likely to cost lives at the margin. I bent my professional energies and skill to not accidentally letting that quote slip, and other people were helping achieve the same (from us as an organization and from me specifically).
In the not-to-distant past, I would have reflexively dismissed this sort of speech as “political BS”, yes. :sweat_smile: I suspect I was far from alone, among engineer-types, though.
I’m somewhat reminded of how would-be technical founders are cautioned that, while it is indeed bad to let the sales team run the company, sales is a very real skill that that deserves respect.
Thank you for your response and, of course, for the work you did running VaccinateCA.
I recall you writing at some point that you kept waiting for the “official” covid response team to take over for VaccinateCA, and were shocked at the realization that no such team existed.
This sentiment didn’t come through in the oral history. Did your feelings on this matter change?
I have the perception that this is a pretty major undercurrent of the oral history.
Apologies, I didn’t communicate what I meant very well (I read the whole piece, I promise!). But thinking it over, I’m not sure there’s a useful conversation to be had around the question as I meant it.
This is a fantastic writeup, thank you for putting in the effort!
I like this time-price comparison mechanism, because it looks like it will better for tracking human-level impact than money will. I am looking forward to the book!
Out of curiosity, what was the time price gain for the previous 40-50 year spans before the ones you mention? The stagnation claim isn’t that progress is literally zero, but that the last 50 years has shown us much less than the 50 years before that, and the 50 years before that. Thiel’s position is more specific to the United States, and I note that in the link you compare the Chinese, Indian and American cases:
The Indian case:
The American case:
7.7 hours and 6.5 hours are very different from 0.775 hours. This makes it look like the Chinese made just shy of 10x the progress America did, by time-price comparisons. Following on the roughly 50 year chunks, this means that China made 10x the progress America did over the last 50 years, by following the path America did the 50 years before that.
This seems consistent with the claims in The Rise and Fall of American Growth, which to oversimplify amount to most of the growth after WWII being due to fully capitalizing on all the inventions from the end of the 19th century, and that there are limits to that growth.
I don’t think it makes sense to compare America’s growth vs China or India’s growth over this period.
Yes, the countries were adopting similar technologies, but when America was adopting them, they were adopting those technologies at the technological frontier. When China and India were adopting them, they were not. It’s easier to grow by adopting already invented technologies than by inventing new ones. This is essentially the logic behind Solow-Swan convergence between rich and poor countries, which as an economic model has held up pretty well to what we observe in the real world.
As advocates of progress studies, we should be looking to see if it is possible to accelerate the rate of frontier growth. There are good reasons to think it might be. As others mentioned, J. Storrs Hall lays out some technologies that were not adopted for various reasons. AI could greatly accelerate technological and economic development. But also, we’ve also observed upshifts in economic growth in the past. Post-Industrial revolution, the economic growth rate, at the frontier and per capita, was about 1% a year, then about 1.5% a year after 1880, and about 2.5% a year after 1930 (I think—my memory is a little fuzzy on the exact numbers here). Thomas Philippon’s paper (summarized by the author in Tweet form here) offers some interesting insights into why this might be. We’ve seen the story of accelerating frontier growth before—the question is why haven’t seen it again in the past 50 years.
I agree that making direct comparisons don’t make sense on their own merits; I used them as stand-ins for the previous period of American growth (which may be in the book, but were not in the link). I don’t think the frontier-vs-catch-up distinction matters to the point argued in the post, though: I strongly expect the American technical frontier 1920-1970 period looks more like the China or India catch-up 1970-2020 period than it does the American technical frontier 1970-2020.
Phrased another way, the time-price method gives us the same stagnation story as the conventional methods do. This is a separate question than what is to be done to speed up frontier progress.
The tweet summary from Philippon is very interesting—I just pulled it from NBER, where the title appears to be Additive Growth.
How do you (Patrick) juxtapose “underpromise and overdeliver” against, when you’re asked, assessing what someone with your (Patrick’s) perceptions and skills could reasonably achieve going forward, given the opportunity?
This would depend markedly on who I was talking to and what I needed out of them. Certain audiences counsel being much more explicit about e.g. one’s level of ambition and where one believes oneself to be on a spectrum of ability/drive/horsepower/etc.
Then there is the comms strategy bit of it, where “I have many weird hobbies, like sometimes running the U.S.’s shadow vaccine location data information provider” is both a self-deprecating joke and also a brief and loaded statement about recent realized results suggestive of my efficacy in doing hard things.
Ideally problematic payments are caught immediately, but in the real world you end up with a bucket of “clearly shady in retrospect” payments that you have to work with.
In a situation where a fix is available (e.g. refund/cancellation), there’s an interesting timing question.
If you take action immediately, you have the satisfaction of knowing victims are made square, likely before they notice the problem.
If you delay a little, possibly till just before the benefits are reaped, you reduce the speed at which the attackers can learn about your systems.
How do you think about this balance? There’s also the question of if it’s worth investing in systems to fake out scammers by tweaking visibility (similar to shadow-banning).
Double dipping—I’m interested in if you’ve built principles around this, or if it’s something you think about per-incident based on the apparent sophistication of the attackers.
The amount of work given to these questions in industry is far, far higher a) than people model it as and b) that I can conveniently fit in a comment.
To the second question, the answer is Yes. Sometimes this question is answered by plans informed by written principles drawn up well in advance of need and enforced through systems implemented by people, where the actual decisioning substrate might be professionals or might be a computer system. Sometimes it is ad hoc decisionmaking in the moment.
Hi Patio11,
With regards to “nerdy writing on the internet”, there seems to be some sort of loose consensus that moving slowly is a policy choice and that there’s lots of relatively cheap ways we could improve the lives of many, many people.
There’s also been a parallel convergence within the policy space of the great power of cash benefits, culminating in the COVID relief bills and the fully refundable Child Tax Credit. This follows the same “we can do better” theme as the above consensus, but instead ends up talking about theories of politics. Mainly end up on the Nordic Social Welfare States—best example would probably be Matt Bruenig and his People’s Policy Project.
What is curious is that these two themes avoid intermingling. Can I ask you why you think that is? That more tech-optimists don’t also promote and campaign for greater social welfare?
Especially with Stripe, as it is so focused on building extremely robust, invisible, powerful infrastructure. In a way, that could also be seen as effective, egalitarian, statecraft. Obviously, your recent piece is on how the current state of affairs is anything but that.
So why is it that tech-optimists put their efforts into the private space, rather than in public office? Why do you? Is it because you’ve been so disappointed in the status quo? Do you think any efforts would be futile? Are you suspicious of states?
I think that there is a nuanced discourse to be made about tech and power, but a comment field is likely not the place to do it.
I will note that tech has no small amount of power, that traditional power centers are not uniformly thrilled about that, and that tech’s response to that has not been to stop doing the things that make tech powerful, like e.g. building things people find useful, getting them to use those things, and exercising responsible discretion as to decisions made about how those things should interface with broader society.
Speaking only for myself, for most of my life, I did not want power and (mostly) do not want power. There was a brief period during which the prevailing allocation of power between duly constituted authorities and myself was actively killing people, and during that period my duty was clear. My most preferred world vis the public sector for the rest of my life is I occasionally send them paperwork and money and they process that paperwork efficiently. There are other potential future worlds; I predict I would enjoy them much less.
Just finished this book by Kate Bingham, a venture capitalist who was head of the UK Vaccine Task Force which invested and got companies to build their supply chains in the country, then was crucified by the media for her efforts. Similar themes to you—gov naivety, lack of technical knowledge, obsession with process over outcome, the optics over the details. I recommend it https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/63124712-the-long-shot
Thank you!
“My most preferred world vis the public sector for the rest of my life is I occasionally send them paperwork and money and they process that paperwork efficiently”
This sounds very Stripe-y to me!
After reading your article on VaccinateCA, I walked away with a strong impression that “americans got the government they deserve”. What’s your thought on this?
I am extremely skeptical of desert narratives and feel they frequently blind us to actions which are in our locus of control and +EV in terms of impacts which are relevant to our moral calculi, like (as a not entirely random example) starting a crash effort to fix the government’s manifest failure to act effectively during a pandemic with the goal of saving lives.
I am also extremely skeptical of desert narratives generally, but the above seems like a sufficient reason to reprogram oneself to not weight them highly.
Tyler Cowen Question: What parts of the government, or processes/bureaucracy, rise and fall in status for you as a result of seeing it close up?
Ooh good questions.
“Staff” level operators in some state governments: up, in a way which was surprising to me.
American governors: down markedly, both with regards to specific identifiable examples but also as an institution.
Public health as a field: they don’t make numbers low enough to quantify my regard for it as a result of the pandemic.
FDA: Down markedly and continued going down with every additional decision.
CDC: Somewhere between FDA and public health as a field.
Pharmacies: down markedly.
Pharmacists: up markedly; I previously regarded this field as a charming historical anomaly and saw some genuinely heroic behavior (amid a lot of mediocrity) in service of patient health outcomes.
Doctors: down slightly as a class due to inconsistency on several subjects the field should have been markedly consistent in execution on.
The people in charge of complex public software projects for a nation other than the US: up markedly, in a way which was extremely surprising to me, because while operational hypercompetence for that nation is basically Tuesday I would not have predicted approximately mid private sector levels of competence in the field of software from the government under almost any circumstances.
AppAmaGooBookSoft: For reasons I cannot share, down on net with respect to my confidence in their ability to act correctly given their values, up slightly with regards to my perception of their realized ability to positively impact the world. (Note that I am near the extreme right of the curve with regards to my estimate of how good AppAmaGooBookSoft are for the world and I feel it depressing that the extreme right of the curve is not where everyone interest hangs out all the time because this should be extremely uncontroversial.)
What are plausible explanations for early “vaccination rollout” authorities’ communications having been so aggressively wrongheaded, to hinder the use of about-to-expire doses?
Extreme risk-aversion, poor incentives to be right, a true values function which does not actually reflect the one we expect them to have, and extreme undercompetence in areas that we expect competence.
(this question is just a rephrasing of the “existence of the other kind of oversight” one, so please don’t answer both.)
What’s your resin 3d printing setup like? Specifically on the chemical waste side of things, how does disposal work in Tokyo vs [insert generic stateside metro area]? I guess this is more of a question about Japanese infrastructure for disposal of small-scale hazardous waste and possible connections to “the will to have nice things”.
In exchange for this information, I offer 2 lesser known tips for resin printing 😁 (that I assume you may not be aware of yet):
Ultrasonic cleaners are way more efficient and effective than pickle containers and toothbrushes at cleaning (though more expensive).
Hot (near boiling/as hot as you’re comfortable touching briefly with a gloved hand) water makes most supports quickly and easily peel off in seconds (saving tons of time). Dunk models in the water for about 10 seconds at a time. Remove supports with (gloved) hands until it starts to cool. Repeat until they’re all gone. Naturally, there’s a burn risk here, so this tip comes with an obligatory “use at your own risk” disclaimer.
I use exclusively water soluble resins.
There exists a type of resin called Ekimate in Japan which is much less smelly/irritating than most resin formulations, costs ~3X as much, and which represents itself as being pourable down the drain in a matter which suggests to me that lawyers/etc have reviewed the claim and think it is within appropriate bounds for marketing material made by chemical manufacturing companies. I do not pour it down the drain. If I had a high tolerance for running wonderful small businesses with inventory, I would try to get their exclusive license to distribute in the US and make it a thing; it’s an obviously better (though premium) product than any other resin formulation I’ve seen.
My liquid waste gets cured outside in sun for several days while evaporating to reduce volume then wiped up with towels and discarded in standard (burnable) trash; my solid waste gets cured out of an abundance of caution then discarded in standard (burnable) trash. I have immaterial use of IPA which is not discardable in trash but which also evaporates easily, and simply let it evaporate outside after I am done with it (after cleaning/reuse cycles).
The percentage cost for card processing (US credit/debit cards in mind here) is set up in a way that would make sense if each individual transaction had a significant marginal cost. Is that the right way to think about the supply side cost of card processing? I don’t think it is, so to me it feels like low-cost-transaction merchants are being way overcharged compared to high-cost-transaction merchants. What am I missing? My mental model of the cost of card processing is a big upfront cost for the initial network and for new features, but very very low marginal cost for each transaction (even including the servers etc required to keep it running).
For example, 2.9%+$0.30 per transaction is 3.2% for a single $100 transaction, 5.9% for 10 $10 transactions and 32.9% for 100 $1 transactions.
I am slightly constrained with respect to talking about the economics of credit card processing in particular, but can I make the observation “A lot of people want financial services to be almost free in sticker cost (at least for people they care about), and all of society wants financial services to be very useful, and almost nothing which is useful in society rounds to free.”
And if I can make an analogy to software, many people wanted software to be basically free and we decided to make it basically free to consumers in return for locking them into fantastically lucrative ecosystems while keeping it very expensive for businesses. (And I think the model for software as “high fixed cost near zero marginal costs” would also need some very important asteriskes because it is factually not the case that Google can, on Tuesday, decide to simply let all the engineers go.)
There are various equilibria which could exist in regards to any particular set of financial services, and in fact we do see (different!) equilibria present in different places. In the place you live in, you see one particular equilibrium, and have a theory as to why you are there, which it is socially difficult for me to comment on.
Ok, thank you for the answer. Huge fan of your work and looking forward to seeing what you get up to next
Assuming you’re at liberty to comment, do you wish more companies adapted Elon’s “show your work from the last 2 weeks or get fired” approach to managing engineers?
I wouldn’t love the sort of culture this creates with regards to increasing perception of career risk from team constantly and making it almost impossible to construct longer-term plans or vision, as a general statement, but have some non-zero level of regard for the notion of “Sometimes one needs to radically change cultures in a hurry and the transition period for them may not resemble the new steady state.”
Either way, I think that if pulled off correctly the Twitter transition will be one of the most important experiments done in the history of scaled management. I perceive ‘smart money’ (both literally and metaphorically from the management class) as assigning very low likelihood to success here. I think some smart money has not updated sufficiently on the track record of people confidently predicting Elon Musk will fail.
I think I am slightly better calibrated than smart money in that regard, and find myself in agreement with smart money anyway.
Is it still possible to create and sell software as one person, or is a startup now the minimum viable size?
Clearly yes; more people do it today than at any time in history.
Would you do it that way again?
I think there is perhaps a 20% chance that my next major adventure is another software company but feel like I’ve “got the merit badge” for doing a solo operation there and would likely not do it again.
Why is it so rare to see politicians running on the promise of eliminating government inefficiency? Closest we’ve got was Trump promising to “drain the swamp” but I doubt anyone took it to mean “I’ll get the Department of State to issue passport in 72 hours instead of 6 weeks”. I’ve heard numerous complaints about the California DMV but haven’t heard of a major politician running on a promise to reduce the wait times there.
I do not perceive this as being particularly rare?
But the problem is systemic, the specific issues are individually generally low-salience or they would have long-since been fixed, and a lot of the things necessary for true change run up against entrenched concentrated interests like e.g. government employee unions, the contracting apparatus, etc.
Our polity does not consider “EINS will be issued within an hour because obviously we are a high-functioning society seriously what the actual #*(#(%#” to be a reason to vote for a candidate at the margin and so our political system does not prioritize making that happen by default.
What do the Japanese think/write internally about being the nation with the highest median age in the world? Are there any drastic fertility-improvement proposals in the works, such as paying a $1m bounty to families with 6+ kids?
It is difficult for me to comment on issues of grave concern to the Japanese polity and I feel your first question is adequately answered (including in English) by appropriate Google searches, so I’d encourage you to make those Google searches. Your suggestion with regards to policy is materially outside of the present Overton window and almost all of my models for the Overton window in 10 years.
Suggestions which are much more inside the Overton window include gradually making Japan more hospitable to immigrants, which a) has already happened to a degree far underappreciated ex-Japan b) is more palatable to power than people model it as and c) would still have many kilometers to go to address long-term demographic trends.
How many years are we still away from being able to make (nearly) instant payments between developed countries with fees under 0.1%? (including hidden exchange rate fees)
This is currently possible in the Eurozone but AFAIK not possible between any other countries.
I do not perceive we are within 10 years of that happening (defined as “instant ~free money movement between banked people in US, JP, Australia, UK, Canada, and all present members of EU”) and my estimate is increasing over time rather than decreasing, which is counterintuitive.
The reason here is that the first companies to do it would necessarily be tech companies with global reach, and not the traditionally-understood financial sector. There are many governments which, for reasons which sound excellent to them, would prefer a) clipping the wings of large tech companies doing business globally and b) increasing the height of the firewall between BigTech and the financial system.
I also think the salience of this particular measure is lower for institutions than it is for individual humans who are routinely exposed to exactly this need, because the types of life situations which expose you to exactly this need are anticorrelated with having power over institutions.
What have the best product managers you’ve worked with consistently done to make your life easier?
Especially curious if those characteristics change working on payments infrastructure vs. something more consumer-facing.
“Keep up a high velocity of shipping good product” seems like a vacuous answer to this question but it’s a really important answer to this question.
How do you think recurring revenue financing based on SaaS recurring revenue will evolve?
Singapore has a government entity that builds open source technologies (eg static site generator, form maker) for other government departments to use. Could you se this being replicated elsewhere?
I don’t particularly think OSS is a necessary component of that model, but we’ve seen similar things with some level of efficacy in both the UK and Japan, which suggests to me that a very similar thing would achieve some level of impact in the US. The US Digital Service and similar have a portfolio approach; it will be interesting to see if they move in the direction of producing self-serve tools. (I do not perceive that as being a large portion of their portfolio as of today but am not an expert w/r/t their portfolio.)
What’s something actionable US startups could do to help bring to the US the best parts of Japanese culture?
“Open Tokyo engineering offices and give them material responsibility for products that ship globally” might be one of them. There are many, many reasons that companies don’t do that, and the biggest one is that it is hard and exposes the company to an internal language barrier, but all are solvable issues. (Also the market price of engineering in Tokyo is far less than the market price of engineering in many countries that U.S. startups happily put engineering offices.)
Any thoughts or meta-level lessons after VaccinateCA about how to improve competence in our institutions, particularly in government? So many problems (not just in the US) come down to corruption in government, or institutionalized incompetence, or a cultural expectation of slowness and low productivity, etc. How do we get underneath these problems to structural issues of organization and incentives, and fix the root causes?
From seeing parts of the official effort that vastly outperformed the median entry in the official effort, some ideas:
Continued experimentation with approaches like the U.S. Digital Service which attempt to create pockets of high-functioning competence and make them available at-need to people in the rest of the system who desire to consume e.g. engineering competence but cannot avail themselves of it locally due to institutional constraints. Stop trying to boil the ocean; start embracing boiling a pot of drinking water and then creating a factory to do that at scale.
This would have been against my beliefs for most of my life, but I think I am in favor of less people in strategic decisionmaking and more accountability for them versus having strategic decision being delegated to hundreds of thousands of people across tens of thousands of orgs, none of them feeling responsible for the final outcome. It may be a true statement that no individual anywhere thinks that they were ultimately responsible for vaccine administration policy or accountable for vaccination rates or other metrics of interest. That… is an insane result.
I think people outside the government need to become radically more familiar with how it operates, not as described in civics class but how it actually functions in the real world. The details of e.g. org charts, reporting lines, incentives, etc matter an awful lot, and to the extent those details are unknown outside of local communities of practice, they are unlikely to reflect our true values. (Or, in some cases, any values at all.) I think many mechanisms for transparency in government (public records laws, FOIA, etc) are positive, but it seems like we have a great deal of low-hanging fruit.
Is there a compelling reason why the state doesn’t publish an org chart, for example? I can imagine many; for one, I doubt the state actually is capable of publishing an org chart. That seems like a capability that we should demand from it as a condition of giving it unique authority to do certain things.
Are there interests that would have wanted the U.S. pandemic response to be low-efficacy, or is that not a productive line of thinking?
See the VaccinateCA piece, but there are many institutions which were not optimizing for “The US should attempt to maximize the number of lives saved during the pandemic” and we should be scandalized by that.
What sort of oversight can prevent a headless (or “committee”) venture from being launched, and what explains the existence of the other kind of oversight, that lets it happen?
I’ve worked at some tech companies which had a very effective answer to that question. At those companies here’s a strong cultural expectation that anything you want to get done should have a known Directly Responsible Individual. As the name suggests, the DRI is exactly one person who is responsible for making sure the thing gets done, and has the authority to make relevant decisions as an individual. (This sometimes goes by other names, but the concept is more or less the same.) If this person is doing poorly they can be replaced with someone else, but there needs to be one person who is ultimately individually responsible and has the corresponding individual authority.
This was probably a formal rule, but the real enforcement was cultural. Everybody Knew that there had to be someone in charge of doing the thing; otherwise how could they possibly expect the thing to get done? Putting a committee in charge instead of a person would have just felt bizarre, as unexpected and transgressive as dropping one’s trousers in a meeting.
This kind of culture can perpetuate itself easily once it exists, but I don’t know how to change an existing organizational culture to be this way, short of having someone at the top with a lot of power and the willingness to use it on this.
I upvoted this but would also like to explicitly endorse it, as it saves me from redundantly typing a worse version of the same answer.
I feel like this answers my question quite well!
I’m largely sympathetic to this viewpoint, and the evidence seems clear-cut. Nevertheless, what I think people like Theil are alluding to, along with J. Storrs Hall in Where is my flying car, is that we could have had so much more progress (including flying cars, nuclear fusion, and supersonic transportation) if it weren’t for some combination of regulations, communism, wokeness and “ergophobia” or environmental romanticism, etc. I’m broadly sympathetic to this view too.
Seems to me that at some level, it’s true that we’ve had a lot of progress on a lot of important metrics, but also not as much progress as we really could have had in the world of atoms.
P.S, writing this from Sweden, where we’re now seeing record high electricity costs (as much of the rest of Europe). What if we had invested more aggressively in nuclear power during the last 20 years rather than having started to shut down our plants?
Hi Progress Team,
My name is Vito, i discovered Progress Studies through reading some articles online that linked to the movement and saw Jasons amazing blog and work and now forum on this crucial topic.
I come from a startup background having built 2 businesses & exited my recent. I’m now writing and rewriting my thoughts of the startup journey with elements relavant to progress studies which i hope are valuable to share.
If progress is not studied or understood, then i believe we will not know how to reach our full human potential.
I’m in Sydney, Australia, if your ever down under i’d be glad to give you a tour :)
Thankyou for having me!
Cheers
Dr. Newport, I enjoyed your video very much and the content is excellent and certainly worth a few minutes of my time sharing my thoughts on it. (I have some copy-editing/writing experience and am familiar with graphic design issues but not video.) I hope you find the comments below useful in some small way.
the essay is very well written, clear, concise, well-organized, has citations and interesting examples, well done
your voiceover is excellent, enunciation, tempo, evenness, and you have the added advantage of that authoritative British baritone so persuasive to Americans like me (I am only half kidding)
your video image is fine, you look young and informal, but earnest and obviously both passionate and well informed (i.e., the video does not seem slickly produced or professionally acted but rather seems like a polished, sincere effort by a trustworthy expert)
there’s not enough time in the video spent lingering on the maps and the quotes and anything that takes some time to process, it goes too fast from you to image back to you back to another image, etc.
some of the art images can be a second or two (someone falling, in a painting…is that Icarus?) but others need a lot more time because we’re taking in both your meaning (in the audio) and the meaning of the image on its own terms (in the video), and the connection between the two (in our heads, but then you keep talking and we have to integrate that too…), all at once, and that takes more time (at least for me) than you allow
solution? maybe less of you (no offense), or just fewer images in general, or different images that I’m not so inclined to pause and zoom in on to fully understand and read
also, if you’re only going to be speaking for say 10 seconds, there should not be a cut between takes, it should be all one take, and if you do include video of yourself talking you could spend slightly longer with the camera on you rather than continually cutting away. It’s a balance, and the balance is not quite right, but not being a video editor myself I am not sure how to articulate the problem.
the quotes obscure the faces, so I’d rather see the text below people’s photos (less of a problem for Edison and Beaumont, whose eyes you can at least see through the text) or do what you did with Arthur C. Clarke, put the quote after the photo, that will let us take more time reading his face and determining his character and then reading the quote, rather than trying to do both at once
and I especially DO NOT like the quote over your own face, put it below, on the bottom of the screen! I don’t want your face obscured or our eye contact with you obscured while you’re talking…here we had established this nice rapport and suddenly you’ve undermined it!
also on that note, your ending is wonderful but you aren’t looking at us (your video isn’t shown) when you say thank you (for watching and subscribing), which lessens the impact of your statement (almost like a liar, looking away! surely you mean it sincerely)—in general if you’re talking, we should either see you for the whole sentence, or at least the whole phrase. Some of the cuts throughout the video are mid-word and that is a problem, it’s jarring and distracts me from taking in the meaning of what I’m hearing.
on my mobile device (holding the phone vertically), most of the images are clear but the small ones all together around 6:45 are a bit unclear because too small, but I do like the impact of your graphical arrangement
I didn’t spend too much time analyzing your use of graphics and how they animate them, but I enjoyed the visual interest that provided, it mixed it up a bit. I’m not a big video-watcher or podcast listener, so normally a 11min video is not going to hold my full interest and this one did. (It’s partly your subject, partly your voice, but also the visually colorful and engaging graphics.)
around 8:30 you move on too quickly from Clarke’s wonderful 2nd law quote, I’d allow a pause here! (it’s building to the climax, too, which is a nice place for a little mental “breather”/silence for effect)
the blue light over your bookcase is very distracting and the background seems cluttered (I’m a book lover, too, but it reads “busy”)
the “valuable negative information” graphical text feels like 3 columns that are about to be filled in, which is probably not your intent. Maybe put it in normally spaced text, with quotes around it to show it’s a connected phrase, a euphemism (a good one).
I like your little laughs and smiles at the amusing bits, make sure those are with the camera on you, not an image, lest we miss out on your expression…that’s part of your emotional connection with your audience, which will motivate them to continue—you’re experiencing the same amusement together. Seeing that on your face as well as hearing it (in your breath) will reinforce that connection and bring them back for more videos.
I hope you do more! Or have you already? Very nice to make your acquaintance and I hope the above has been valuable. You should feel very proud of your work. Thanks for sharing it.
Molly Johnson
Thanks so much for these excellent comments. Really really appreciate all your thoughts on this, it’s incredibly helpful.
Timing is an absolute nightmare and so easy to get wrong when you spend so long around the same footage. My first video had comments I was taking too short a time on graphs and text and clearly that’s still something I have to be better on!
Re. time on screen, I’m very happy to reduce myself some more haha! One restriction there, that I realised with this video, was it’s actually something mostly dictated in the quality of images/footage I can use in the piece—I had a lot of extra “airplane” stuff footage but it got very boring. But a lot of stuff I watch doesn’t spend so long on individuals (bar some exceptions) so I agree!
Honestly really appreciate you taking the time to give such extensive thoughts—and to put together the bits you liked and thought worked well, as well as improvements. I have a document with all feedback I’ve received and I look through it and try to iteratively improve when editing my next one, so this makes a massive difference, thanks again!
Congratulations to both you and Heike! Sounds like a wonderful partnership.
When you ask questions like that, the name Vaclav is going to come up at least a few times, and Energy and Civilization was a titan of a book. The other book from Smil that I would have to recommend in line with your question would be “Grand Transitions How the Modern World Was Made”—Vaclav Smil, c2021
Another recent Smil book, slightly out of the scope of your question but still relevant, is “Numbers Don’t Lie: 71 Things You Need to Know About the World”—Smil c2021.
Note: Smil is a fellow Canadian, and I’ve had the opportunity to bounce emails around with him since 2018, when when I reached out to ask his take on some Tesla-related questions. While he’s a truly brilliant thinker, a genuine world expert on energy, many books, including Rhodes’s, took inspiration from his work — he is, from my perspective, become, or perhaps always was, glass-half-empty on the future of human civilization. I had the opportunity to interview him for an op-ed earlier in the year but didn’t push it as I was somewhat worried it would result in an unrestrained dump on future progress.
Thanks Tony. Currently reading his Energy: A Beginner’s Guide =)
Hi! CEO and Editor-in-Chief of Warp News and chairman of Warp Institute, with the mission to make the future come sooner, aka speed up progress.
We are a community of 50 000+ forward-looking, optimistic people worldwide. I’m based in Sweden, and my two co-founders in North Carolina.
Blog The Angry Optimist.
Twitter, Linkedin
Hi everyone. My name is Coleman. I’m a software engineer for a genetic testing company. I’m based in San Diego, California. I guess I could say my hobby is what Jason might call the philosophy of progress. I’ve been a big fan of Jason’s writing for a while now (my favorites are the review of Where’s My Flying Car and We Need a New Philosophy of Progress). I’m a big fan of Balaji Srinivasan’s thinking, too.
I have been kind of obsessed for a while now with the question of how we accelerate technological progress. I like trying to imagine a better future and how we would get there. I have been writing little posts on this kind of thing for the last year, about. I’m actually very interested in trying to do something like what Jason’s done in becoming an influential progress intellectual so am looking forward to learning more about the progress writer fellowship. Really excited to be here!
On metascience policy and writings: it’s really hard to judge impact! We do a lot of writing at the Good Science Project, and our newsletter is read throughout the White House, congressional staff, NIH leaders, etc. Sometimes people behind the scenes ask for ideas and input. But policy action is long, tortuous and unpredictable (e.g., ARPA-H took some 5 years to enact since the time that my board member Mike Stebbins and others started writing and talking about that idea).
In the context of federal government action, 5 years feels like a huge win! Out of curiosity, was there any kind of generic background on the kind of policy being worked on? For example, with ARPA-H, did the background include the founding of other ARPA-pattern agencies, the references about the relevant authority, or budgetary shenanigans?
It’s unrelated to the OP, but what I am driving at here is how much pre-work on behalf of the government is a valid optimization target. I want to make a comparison with the legislative case, where a successful strategy in lobbying is providing draft language for a bill; is there an equivalent in the executive case?
As of 2017, the Suzanne Wright Foundation, which has only two employees and makes only around $400k in grants a year, started publishing a series of articles on the idea of a DARPA for health (with amateurish graphics). It created a separate website (also with amateurish design and graphics), and a series of short videos (e.g., this, this, and this, each of which had fewer than 2,300 views by 2022).
All of that might seem like an inauspicious beginning, but the foundation also got the support of Geoff Ling (who had founded the DARPA Biological Technologies Office) and Mike Stebbins (who had just spent six years as Assistant Director for Biotechnology at the White House OSTP).
Eventually, the idea made its way into the Biden campaign’s hands, and Biden started promoting the idea on the campaign trail (see this clip from an August 8, 2019 speech). Ling and Stebbins then wrote up their proposal in more detail for the Day One Project, sponsored by the Federation of American Scientists.
Congratulations, Heike!
I’m Jason Crawford, author of The Roots of Progress, where I write about the history of technology and the philosophy of progress. I’ve written about everything from iron & steel to Haber-Bosch to smallpox to nuclear power to the bicycle. I’ve also written why progress studies is a moral imperative, why we need a new philosophy of progress, and why our society needs industrial literacy.
I’ve been interviewed as a spokesman for the progress movement in Vox and BBC, and I’ve done lots of podcast interviews as well.
I’m turning The Roots of Progress into a nonprofit that will support progress writers like myself. In 2023 we’ll be launching a “career accelerator” fellowship for progress writers.
You can subscribe to my email newsletter or follow @jasoncrawford on Twitter.
Hey all, I’m Seth. I am a developer and informatics researcher in biotech. I’m interested in the notions of Progress more abstractly, in thinking about how we define it in multiple dimensions, e.g. beyond economic metrics. I admit having a bit of a “fearful” mindset with Progress and growth, namely what happens if we don’t keep advancing, what if life is basically the same for decades or centuries, how we overcome productivity plateaus, and other more philosophical notions. I’m also interested in the more concrete forms of what the advancements are that constitute Progress, and how we get more of that.
I’m located near Boston and engage with other Progress-minded folks occasionally (although we meet up rather infrequently). Happy to be here!
Any comments on worker safety? Whenever the topic of building speed comes up, some people assume that faster construction must be less safe, and more workers were injured or died. Wondering what the data says
In general, worker safety has improved significantly in the 90 years since the Empire State Building was built, see here: Workplace Fatalities Fell 95% in the 20th Century. Who Deserves the Credit? - Foundation for Economic Education (fee.org)
It’s pretty common to interpret slower speed as the inevitable cost of increased safety, but looking at some notable projects the link is less than obvious to me:
-5 workers died during the construction of the Empire State Building, which was built in 11 months
-0(!) workers died during the construction of the Chrysler Building, which was built in 20 months.
-5 workers died during the construction of the Sears Tower, which was built in 4 years.
-2 workers died during the construction of One World Trade, which was built in 7 years
-60(!) workers died during the construction of the original World Trade Center, which was also built in 7 years.
It would be interesting to do a more thorough analysis, scaled to building size, but it’s not trivial to do (I did a quick check for number of deaths on some less notable buildings and they’re much harder to find if they exist at all). It’s a reasonable hypothesis, but most people suggesting I think are going off vibes rather than actual data. And it seems clear that it’s at least in-principle possible to build both quickly and safely (though you could make like, a stochastic argument against this).
Deaths per worker hour would be one way to normalize?
The difficulty isn’t normalizing (per square foot is probably the most reasonable), it’s getting death information for individual buildings. Outside of the most famous buildings it’s not easy to track down.
I enjoyed Richard Rhodes’s Energy: A Human History.
Vaclav Smil has written a couple books on energy; I haven’t read them yet but probably Energy and Civilization: A History is the most relevant?
Our World in Data has a lot of research on energy, see e.g. this chart of GDP per capita vs. energy use that shows a strong correlation (the relationship is reciprocal, IMO).
Eli Dourado and Austin Vernon have an article on energy superabundance—what could we do in the future with lots more energy?
See also the intro to this post of mine on nuclear.
Thanks!
I think that “Where is my Flying Car” makes this case persuasively, especially for the modern day.
There are a few interesting articles on Anton Howe’s substack if you are interested in a more historical perspective on energy use and technology. He writes on early modern economic history, 1550-1700 or so, and a lot of his writing relates to how the foundation for the Industrial Revolution was laid. Many of his posts are paywalled, however.
Hey folks, I’m Erik. I heard about Progress Studies through an interest in economic history. I’ve always been very interested in the Industrial Revolution, why development occurs or why it doesn’t, and what we could do to accelerate the rate of technological progress. Progress Studies appealed to me because it’s a group of people very interested in those same questions through a modern lens—what works and what doesn’t to increase industrial and technological advancement in the modern day?
As some might guess from my earlier comment, my background is in economics. My day job is in business intelligence, I also have a startup project related to zoning/real estate I’m working on the side. I’m based out of the Philly area, I encourage all other Philly area folks to join the community group! Once we have a few people, let’s find an evening we can do a happy hour or something. Looking forward to connecting with different people!
Sounds like a great addition! Congrats to both Roots of Progress and Heike =)
I have been thinking about this claim as of late: does medical school steal lock up too much top talent in the US? Your evidence for the case in Germany is interesting. One thing about the medical profession is that it is always clear what the next step to take is. While becoming a founder or even an electrical engineer the number of options remains open for a very long time. So it is possible that the medical field is also dulling our wits. I think your test score data is good. I wish you also had data about what fields A* students matriculate into. Is there any way to find that? We could compare it with the US data on A* students to see the size of the effect. Of course the two education systems are different enough that this may be difficult. I ran this by one of our friends who is in radiology and he seems to think it plausible.
I want to research this more and chat more!
Definitely agree with this; it seems very hard to leave when the next steps are so obvious.
Yeah, I’d love to have that data as well. What’s your background? Happy to chat more, though I will likely shift more of my focus on biosecurity things over the coming weeks.
I think there is a couple of ways perhaps to get at studying the size of medical school problem, supposing it exists.
We could measure the opportunity cost of careers with similar matriculating student profiles to med school students.
We could also study the careers of accepted students who don’t wind up going.
Using Germany vs US as comparison groups maybe a little bit tricky given the differences in education systems. But I’m sure there’s already some decent solutions to that problem worked out in other papers.
I work on secondary school startups, college and career counseling, and academic development. So day to day I’m trying to provide signals to help direct the flow of our students towards better things.
Great question, what form could this take? I can think of a few themes for funds, based on the three drivers of progress I laid out in this post:
Metascience: improving the way research is managed and funded, or just directly funding good research that can’t easily be funded through traditional channels. Orgs in this theme include PARPA, Convergent Research, New Science, Arcadia Science, and Arc Institute.
Policy: regulatory reform to remove roadblocks and improve incentives for progress. The Institute for Progress and the Center for Growth and Opportunity do good work here.
Culture: studying and communicating the idea that progress is possible and desirable. This is what The Roots of Progress is doing. Our World in Data plays a similar role, in a more neutral and fact-based way.
I could imagine a fund on any of these themes, making grants to orgs like the ones mentioned, or smaller grants directly to individual projects on these themes. I could also imagine a fund covering two or all three of them.
The Roots of Progress does take donations from the public, as does Our World in Data; I’m not sure about the others.
PS: One challenge is that there isn’t a single “QALYs/$” metric that you can quantify and stack-rank all opportunities on. So grant decisions need to rely on vision, strategy, and judgment. This probably means that it makes more sense for there to be multiple funding organizations, rather than just one. (Fitting with a general theme I have noticed that progress studies is more pluralistic, federated, and bottom-up; vs. EA which is more centralized, technocratic, and top-down.)
Not only you don’t have QALY, but you cannot RCT easily things in progress studies.
The most progress-adjacent idea that EA has debated is the against Randomista post and to have more focus on economic growth. But right now I think the consensus is that QALYs and RCTs will still dominate.
I’d say the donation legibility is a concern here. The best progress-related institutions aren’t set up in a way where low dollar denominated donations make obvious helpful marginally valuable improvements. When I donate five hundred dollars to vaccines acquisition and distribution in Angola, that’s believably a marginal difference that matters.
Under what models of progress does a marginal $500 provide a lot of value? I think in the context of microgrants to young people and young ideas, it is great! But I’m having trouble for something like New Science.
Maybe the marginal 500 dollars should be spent on youtube advertising for channels that are PS aligned? I can find that somewhat believable.… particularly because I have my eye on a certain Nigerian youtuber who is criminally undersubscribed.
On the Policy point, I often wonder what occurs after the research and writings done by e.g. Institute for Progress (and yes a QALYs/$ metric seems near impossible). How could one better discern the outcomes of the Policy work, and that the research and recommendations for Policy isn’t shouting into a void?
Another way of thinking about it is if one were to put money or time into Policy, what would those actions look like?
You mention the Manhattan Project (govt) and GE (industry), and I feel like there are still a lot of similar non-academic research groups that run on more like a Compton model. For instance I worked at the Boston Fed, the CFPB, and the World Bank (as well as in academia) and they all have that flavor of working on a team toward a common goal, with some direction from above. We were also given some time purely for our own independent research.
American Genesis: A Century of Invention and Technological Enthusiasm, 1870–1970, by Thomas P. Hughes.
A history of the creation of large technological systems of production and distribution, and the social response to those systems. It’s not only about the century of technological enthusiasm, but also about how that enthusiasm went wrong (in my opinion), and how it came to an end.
I reviewed it in two parts: 1) American invention from the “heroic age” to the system-building era, 2) From technocracy to the counterculture.
Louis Pasteur: Free Lance of Science, by René Dubos.
A biography of Louis Pasteur, covering his major achievements and placing them in the context of the origins of microbiology and the germ theory of disease.
I enjoyed this book very much. First, the career of Pasteur is an amazing one, well deserving of a biography. Pasteur demonstrated the role of microbes in fermentation processes, disproved contemporary claims of the spontaneous generation of life, played a major role (along with Robert Koch) in establishing the germ theory of disease, and invented the first vaccines after Edward Jenner, including the vaccine for rabies. Any of these accomplishments alone would probably have earned him a place in the history books; all of them together make him a rare hero in the history of progress.
Second, the book goes beyond biography, placing its subject in the full context of the scientific developments of the age. The first chapter paints a picture of the intellectual atmosphere of the 19th century; later chapters wax philosophical about the nature of scientific accomplishment and creative work.
I found enough great quotes to fill a long Twitter thread.
The Alchemy of Air: A Jewish Genius, a Doomed Tycoon, and the Scientific Discovery That Fed the World but Fueled the Rise of Hitler, by Thomas Hager.
The story of the Haber-Bosch process for creating synthetic ammonia, which is crucial for producing the fertilizer needed to feed the seven billion or so people on Earth today. In Hager’s phrase, it turns air into bread. It’s also the story of the lives of the men who created it, and its consequences for world agriculture and for Germany during the World Wars.
This was a very well-told story, and I’d recommend it to any history buff. Unlike many books on the history of technology and industry, it does a good job of explaining the science and engineering behind the invention (but it doesn’t get too technical for a general audience).
My book review.
The Knowledge: How to Rebuild Civilization in the Aftermath of a Cataclysm, by Lewis Dartnell.
A summary of the technologies that the modern industrial world depends on, the basic principles of their operation, and how one might re-establish them if the world were to suffer some global shock that led to the breakdown of civilization. A good survey of the key technologies of industrial civilization.
A Culture of Growth: The Origins of the Modern Economy, by Joel Mokyr.
This book was pivotal in the launch of The Roots of Progress. It is about how the Enlightenment, between about 1500 and 1700, set the stage for the Industrial Revolution. Special attention is given to Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton.
I had to skim many chapters of this book, especially in the beginning. However, I found its key ideas absolutely fascinating. For a summary, see Mokyr’s article in The Atlantic, “Progress Isn’t Natural”.
Where Is My Flying Car? A Memoir of Future Past, by J. Storrs Hall.
A work combining historical analysis and bold futurism, looking for the causes of the Great Stagnation (including and especially our lack of flying cars) and painting a picture of what a technological future could look like.
I enjoyed this book a lot, and learned a lot from it. Hall’s vision of the future includes not only flying cars, but nanotechnology-powered manufacturing, nuclear-powered everything, and artificial intelligence. My biggest single takeaway from the book is the potential for nanotech to give us atomically precise manufacturing, and the mind-blowing possibilities for this. I also appreciated his analysis of the root causes of our current (relative) technological stagnation, including the centralization and bureaucratization of research funding, the growing burden of regulation, and the rise of an anti-technology, anti-industry counterculture. See my full review for more.
The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations That Transform the World, by David Deutsch.
A work of philosophy, mostly epistemology, with a bit of quantum physics thrown in. The theme is that all problems are solvable—“anything not forbidden by the laws of nature is achievable, given the right knowledge”—but that there is no end of problems or solutions, just as there is no end to knowledge or to mistakes. In contrast to both skepticism and “inductionism”, Deutsch promotes “fallibilism”.
I found this book fascinating and agree with much of it, although I disagree with many formulations, especially around induction and the base of knowledge. That said, it was one of those books where, even though I felt that I knew many of the points before I read them, I have found that the formulations have stuck with me, such that I am continually referring to the book and suggesting it to others. I particularly liked his identification that solutions always create new problems, which we meet with new solutions. Often people complain that a given solution created new problems, as if that is an indictment of the solution; when I encounter that argument, I now point them to Deutsch and explain that that is the nature of solving problems.
Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress, by Steven Pinker.
The message of this book is that reason, science and humanism—which Pinker identifies as the key themes of the Enlightenment—have, historically, led to massive progress in almost every area of life, and that they are our best means of continuing this progress into the future. But these ideals are not consistently upheld, and are often under attack. Therefore, we need to fortify and defend them.
My book review.
Not a fully-worked-out model, but here are some thoughts.
On methods:
Progress studies is an integration of history, philosophy, and economics (and maybe other fields, but those are the big ones).
I think history is the empirical foundation—where we get the case studies and the data from. That’s why, when I wanted to understand progress, I started by studying how it has actually happened, and indeed before I even asked “how” I just tried to figure out what happened.
Quantifying is good if/when you can do it appropriately. But make sure the thing you are measuring can actually reasonably represent the concept you are trying to study.
In general, go deep on whatever you’re studying and really get into the details. Your ratio of case studies to grand theories should be like 3–5 to 1.
On understanding vs. rhetoric:
There are both factual questions and ideological ones (or perhaps a spectrum). The factual questions include: how does progress happen, what are the mechanisms and causes, how can we measure it? The ideological questions include: is progress actually good, and can humanity have any agency over progress in the future?
Both are necessary and important, and I think the answers reinforce each other. The motivation for studying the factual questions is the conviction that progress is good and we can make more of it if we try. Conversely, when you honestly study the history of progress I think you can’t help but conclude that it has been very good for humanity and that its legacy is worth defending.
However, there is a trap here: promoting any ideology can put you in “soldier mindset.” Rather than honestly consider counterarguments, you can start to shut your ears, dig in your heels, and fight.
So, I think we should hold ourselves to the highest epistemic standards. Keep an open mind, listen to criticism, steelman your opponents. Don’t let progress studies turn into a dogma.
Yes, and it’s the same in Australia.
Maybe talent sorting is also flawed in Australia, but isn’t it for a different reason? This post identifies lack of top universities in Germany as a reason, but as far as I know, Australia has clear top universities.
The general contours of the situation are the same. The programs that require the highest high-school exit grades are medical programs, so top students mostly self-select into medical programs at many different universities, rather than into subjects of interest to them at the top schools.
Knowledge and the Wealth of Nations by David Warsh is about the development of theories of economic growth, and in particular Paul Romer’s endogenous growth theory. Part a good overview of economic growth theories, part a history of economic thought, and part the specific story of how Romer developed and championed his model. A good popular introduction to endogenous growth and some of its competitors.
My book recommendation is Networks, Crowds, and Markets: Reasoning About a Highly Connected World by David Easley and Jon Kleinberg.
As the title implies, it’s a book about understanding the world using graph theory, network theory, and game theory.
What makes it exceptionally good is it being in the sweet spot between “popular science books” that don’t offer any interesting insights to someone who has any familiarity with these topics, and “advanced academic literature” where the insights are available only to those who have already studied the topic for many years.
Not only were the basic ideas fairly easy to understand, it also felt like each page had at least some insights that made me pause and think about their implications.
I also believe this to be of particular importance now, when networks are appearing as one of the leading candidates for the primary shape of society during this century. If networks were to become the primary shape, this book could help one better understand how to make the best out of it.
I first read this few years ago, but I am planning to read it again soon. After doing plenty of thinking and work on similar themes since then, I suspect I could gain even more out of it during the second read. So, even if you have read this before, you might also consider a second round with it.
You can read more about the book, including a highly informative table of contents, and even download for free (!) its pre-publication draft at https://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kleinber/networks-book/.
In what way are networks the leading candidate for the shape of society in the 21st century in ways they aren’t in other centuries? It seems to me that network dynamics have always been essential in shaping society. Why are they uniquely important in the 21st century?
Do you have any methods of analysis or threads of scholarship that you think are definitely wrong, or seriously misleading, and so should be avoided?
Not sure exactly, but there are some popular books I dislike. I read the first chapter of Dawn of Everything and was unimpressed. See Holden Karnofsky’s “book non-review”. Also, I tried to read Sapiens and I could not get through two chapters of it. C. R. Hallpike’s review captures my feelings about it.
Re methods of analysis, I am highly skeptical of cyclical theories of history (Turchin/cliodynamics).
But generally as long as you’re looking at data and other evidence, and applying logic, you should be able to discover some nugget of truth.
This is an interesting post, and the arguments make sense to me. Upvoted.
I did find one idea which is very popular in economics thinking that I want to push back on:
I claim none of the effort spent by the second group is wasted: all of the duplicative effort pays out as reduced time to understand (and therefore use) the discovery. In cases where two groups are very close, that amount of time is basically zero; in cases of multiple discovery it is actually zero. I strongly expect that having multiple groups with a good understanding of a discovery increases the likelihood of successfully getting to downstream discoveries, and I suspect it would disproportionately increase the likelihood of leapfrogging and branching into new areas as the multiple groups look to differentiate themselves.
Separately and not directly related to the post, I claim that situations of multiple discovery are the most valuable events for the study of progress, because they give us n>1 experiments in how much information is required to make the discovery in question. An example of what I mean here is that if the same thing was discovered three independent times, and we look at what each person or group knew when they made the discovery, then:
Stuff known by all groups tells us what is necessary
The group that knows the least stuff gives us an idea of what is sufficient
Stuff that one or more groups was wrong about can be either dismissed as irrelevant, or if another group had it right they could be compared to see what influence that part had on how far they got
The way the second point relates to the first is that I believe the analytical lens which looks at the efficiency of a single discovery—whence the duplicated effort is wasted idea—is fundamentally mistaken. A single discovery doesn’t make sense to me as a unit of analysis for this because they are not independent; they depend on the discoveries that came before them and are in turn depended on for later discoveries. If we shift from the abstract discovery level to concrete ones like steps in the chain of producing products, this becomes much more stark: what sense does it make to compare the efficiency of an automated truck in a Uranium mine to the efficiency of an additive in paint manufacturing? In order for the efficiency numbers to make sense we need the context of the process of which they are a part.
Turning at last back to the actual subject of the post—that the value of a discovery by a person or group should be considered in light of the duplicated effort—feels to me like carrying the the same frame of analysis one step farther and applying it to the groups in the research process. If we want to identify which groups we should look to for lessons on progress (which I realize was not identified in the post) then it feels like my intuitions about this point in the opposite direction of yours.
I think I’d agree that “most important century” is a twistier and more confused claim than first appears, but I think it’s ultimately dissatisfying because it’s a tautology, and we should not deny tautologies. They’re always true, and sometimes they’re even meaningful.
It is true for me that this is the most important century, in the sense that the most important thing is whatever thing I should be paying the most attention to and trying to affect.
Ask me again in 200 years and I will probably tell you that the 23rd century is the most important century at that time. It will be an honest report. That’s what will be important to me then.
I don’t think there is any use for an objective, timeless sense of what is “important”. It should depend on the reference frame. Different people should find different things important. The denial of that, the striving for a monocausal, monofocal global discourse, has been causing many discursive and interpersonal problems, and might just be an artifact of a smaller and less connected human umwelt that we departed from long ago.
The more I think about this, the more I think there should not really be a distinction between Differential Progress and progress studies in general. When we study anything, we should always be thinking about how we should take agency over it. Knowledge is supposed to be used to improve the world.
Or… would a good paraphrasing be “applied progress studies”?
This month total human population crossed 8 billion!
Do you think the world needs more people? (Context)
“Needs” might be too strong, but I think more people would be a good thing. More people means more ideas, more art, more science, more inventions, more innovations, more pushing the boundaries of knowledge and practice. If you define “genius” as 99.9999th percentile intelligence, then for every million people born, we get one new genius.
Indeed, there is an argument that we need continued population growth in order to keep up economic growth. The intuition for this, in brief, is that the more we advance, the broader and more challenging the technological frontier gets, and the more specialists we need working in R&D to push it forward. (See here for a take on this)
I have seen this kind of analysis before (e.g., this ACX post). There is something to it, but I think in most contexts, the absolute/total “impact” of an idea (using your terminology here) is more important/relevant than the counterfactual/incremental “value.”
There are a few contexts in which the counterfactual/incremental analysis is what you want, but I’m not sure what you learn from that beyond “it’s more valuable to work in neglected areas, rather than crowded ones, all else being equal.” That is a true and important lesson, but not one for which we need to redefine how we measure value.
Re “inventions which were not actually made for some time after they were technically possible” (aka “ideas behind their time”), see some of my recent commentary on this.
It would be interesting to break down R&D models into attributes, like:
Average team size?
How are problems selected?
How is funding allocated?
Average amount of funding controlled by a single manager?
How is talent selected?
How is talent developed?
Etc.
And then fill out a table of those attributes for all the major models (university lab, corporate lab, DARPA, etc.)
This is interesting. I guess I anecdotally have started doing this but my memory (like everyone’s) can be quite faulty/hazy. Maybe I’ll start keeping a running spreadsheet that I mark up as I read.
This is a cool project! I am going to spend some time poking around in there, and if I think of anything in the way of improvements I’ll let you know.
Very interesting.
Apparently “lunarpunk” is gaining traction in web3 circles but its meaning seems to be even more vague:
https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/2022/09/20/what-are-solarpunk-and-lunarpunk-anyway/
Because… to the moon?
What concrete steps would you recommend someone do, if they’re interested in Progress Studies in general terms, and would like to contribute in some way, but don’t necessarily know how or have a directly relevant background? Other than the obvious steps of writing blog posts and posting here :)
I think more people have a relevant background than may be obvious at first:
Scientists, inventors, and founders can directly make material progress
Historians, economists, and philosophers can study progress and incorporate it into their work
Educators and journalists can communicate about progress to their audiences
Writers and artists can inspire people with an ambitious vision of the future
Policy makers can remove obstructions and roadblocks to progress
Parents can educate their children about progress
What everyone can do: educate yourself, spread the world, donate to the cause.
Interesting essay. I think the idea of flexibility is good in general: for example, I know of a case where a scientific programmer position on an academic project cannot be properly filled because the salary is far below the market; this is well understood by the project leader but cannot be fixed due to strong regulations of fund allocation.
However, I’m wondering what would this model lead to for PhD students that want to stay in academia? Already in the current system, there are not enough tenure positions for everyone, in the Compton model it seems that there will be even fewer, which would discourage some amount of people from following an academic route.
So it’s unclear, to me at least, whether this would grow or shrink the number of academic jobs. The number of “budgetary shot callers” would shrink by a lot since far fewer professors would have a bank account/grant to direct. But many of these teams would still require PhDs to be doing real research.
To many, that sometimes sounds like a demotion. But I think that’s a knee-jerk way to look at it. You can liken many of the new roles to what it was like being one of the many many smart PhDs/professors who worked on something like the Manhattan Project or in the GE Lab. You had probably a sort of comparable amount of freedom since your mind was respected by your “bosses” and they let you explore how to find things out on your own, but you did your research while also productively working within a “team” rather than a loose collection of individuals with different goals entirely.
Of course there are certain jobs that PhDs currently do, such as writing software, that would probably be efficient to hand over to non-PhDs in many cases. But the whole operation would also work more efficiently with the unified budget and possibly have more money for PhD researchers as well. So I find it hard to tell whether jobs would be harder or easier to come by.
What is the role of geography and place in the future of progress?
There was the recent paper on “Why Britain? The Right Place (in the Technology Space) at the Right Time” looking at why Britain gained economic leadership during the Industrial Revolution. We have seen the agglomeration effects on innovation regions with Detroit in the 40′s and 50′s and Silicon Valley in the 1990s-2010s.
On the other hand we are seeing remote work and considerably high demand for it. Recent data on LinkedIn had 14% of jobs being listed as remote, but garnering 52% of the applications. IP commercialization is not limited to where it was developed.
There are some analysis about why democracy, modernity appeared in Europe, earlier in Greece, and there are two related analysis.
One is by David Cosandey, “Le secret de l’Occident. Vers une théorie générale du progrès
scientifique, ”
You can translate this related presentation to have a quick vision:
https://gerflint.fr/Base/MondeMed4/Demorgon_Secret.pdf
He proposes 2 concepts, one is “articulated thalassography”, a measurement I’ve seen in fractal theory, comparing the length of the coast with surface of the country that can be reasonably defended...
Another is “Mereuporia”, the capacity in a zone to have stable “realms” that compete strongly but can never win totally on the whole zone...
Both ideas push countries to stay stable, exchange much, innovate much, and prevent the creation of a sterile centralized empire.
The second author, cited David Cosande (and Isaac Asimov, and many others, including a post-Roman historian) : Philippe Fabry
https://www.amazon.com/s?i=digital-text&rh=p_27%3APhilippe+Fabry&s=relevancerank&text=Philippe+Fabry
In English there is only: “history of next century”, and “Rome from libertarianism to socialism: Ancient lessons for our time”
He has a more comprehensive theory of history (Historionomy), proposing that there have been 3 ages, with Mycenian empire, Roman Empire, and US Empire, evolving in spiraling cycles...
What he calls Civilization A was Greece, and now is Europe (before it was Cretan “palaces”), with dynamic states that from medieval period, move to a Renaissance, with each country making a national transition from medieval to monarchy then parliamentary democracy.
However, this transition is frozen during wars when the country is troubled… Britain with 100 years war, delayed French Revolution by 100 years, while it’s own process was not… it became the “thalassocracy” , having control over the commerce… WW1&WW2 (German national transition, which triggered Russian transition halted by Staline unexpected victory) propelled USA as the new Thalassocracy...
Being the Thalassocracy make you connected to many civilizations, attractive to innovators, demanding in innovation, and not afraid of innovations.
In Antiquity, Athens was the thalassocracy.
There is much more to say, but yes, geography, because of commerce and capacity to protect your land are key.
One of the reason of Russian psychology is that they were on the road of nomad warlords from Mongolia, regularly invaded… France on the opposite is a crossing but have good natural borders to hale. and England is an island. Ukraine was the door to Europe, where Polish empire installed Cossacks horsemen to block eastern invasions… guess what happened when someone attached them from the east ? (Note that the mass of fighter against nazis were Ukrainians and Belarussians)...
What is depressive with Fabry is that he predict the fate of US Empire is like Roman Empire, move from democracy to autoritarianism, then alone in his empire, with no competition, it will collapse like USSR, leading to a new middle age, allowing a new Renaissance, but with bigger-size civilization (guess à which scale)… risky colonization far from Civilization A… a new Thalassocracia...
The only things to do would be to store Alexandria Library in a very safe place, and promote a new Bysance
Interesting theory...
The more transportation and communication technology advance, the more we conquer time and space, and the less they matter. However, they still matter a lot, and will for the foreseeable future. We would need something faster than supersonic airplanes, or some kind of very high-fidelity VR/telepresence, for the effect of distance to be negligible.
Emphasis on “foreseeable”—maybe something will happen that makes distance obsolete.
On the other hand, it can only do so as long as we stay on one planet. Once we go beyond Earth, the speed of light makes distances matter again. Even between here and the Moon, a ~2.5-second round trip delay makes real-time conversations awkward. Between here and Mars, the delay is measured in minutes, making even basic web browsing basically impossible. Once we become interstellar, we’re basically forking human civilization. So probably “place” will always matter.
I know this is a minor point of yours, but I think straightforward extensions of existing web technology could solve the problem of communication between Earth and Moon or Mars, at least when interactivity with another human on earth is not required. CDNs already cache a large % of media your browser downloads. The number of round-trips needed is an optimization target in modern web engineering, and e.g. HTTP/2 introduced many new improvements for that. Compute also can move closer to the user; one can imagine AWS opening a new region “mars-1” with most or all of the same services they offer on earth.
The challenge here may actually be achieving the bandwidth needed to proactively push most data on the internet to Mars. High bandwidth (like fiber between major data centers) helps achieve impressive latency on Earth; I have no idea how difficult or expensive it would be to achieve such bandwidth between Earth and Mars.
Live collaboration is of course harder and the solutions to those seem to be more on the product and process side. Long-form writing, Loom video/screen recordings, and general written-first culture is something remote-first companies rely on today.
I think the Earth–Mars communication problem is definitely solvable, and it makes sense that the solution would be built on top of existing web standards. But I think new solutions and new standards/protocols would need to be developed, and it would be less than straightforward—it will require real engineering. And no matter what the solution, the overall user experience will be different.
Enjoyed this a lot. I think more artwork on terrapunk would be excellent. I first encountered Solarpunk through artistic representations—I think something similar could very easily spread the human maximalism of terrapunk.
This is great, I feel like I finally have a mental model for understanding why movies are all franchises and reboots now!
Adam Mastroianni’s original post—and my previous take on this phenomenon—were pretty pessimistic about the state of creativity in our culture. But, for me anyway, understanding what’s happening through the lens of this mental model restores a lot of optimism. The big takeaway for me is that looking at the creativity of the top performing works in a field isn’t a good way to assess the creativity of the whole field.
When we see yet another big franchise installment or reboot topping the charts, it isn’t because the producers have just run out of ideas or are too risk averse to make good original art. The good art is still being produced, and more people than ever are able to access it. It just gets eclipsed (somewhat mechanically) by the huge network effects driving people to also consume the familiar franchises.
I see this most clearly in TV shows. Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Game of Thrones, etc. may not beat out American Idol and NCIS in the ratings, but they’re still out there for tons of people to enjoy. And I would bet that a lot of people watch both the critically acclaimed original TV shows and the less creative franchises, for slightly different reasons. One more to enjoy the art itself and to talk about with a more close-knit community, the other for the wider communal experience (plus sometimes you just want to zone out and not pay as much attention to the TV anyway).
I think this argument may apply to science as well, though this is less clear to me. I could see, for example, scientists citing an older, fundamental paper just to acknowledge the intellectual landscape they’re operating in, while also citing newer, more creative work that is more relevant to their own work. This process would lead to the ossification of the top citations that you point out, without necessarily being a mark against the creativity of the field.
Thanks! I think there is also a pessimistic read, which is that these dynamics affect the direction of cultural creation; specifically, commercial creators will be pulled towards doing franchise-like work for anything expensive. Original and outlier work will have to happen on smaller budgets, where a smaller return can justify the investment. Whereas we used to get “expensive + original”, now we’ll probably have to content ourselves with “cheap + original.”
That’s a good point. It seems potentially relevant that TV seems to have been most exempt from this trend (with all the “Golden Age of TV” discourse over the last decade or so), and TV is probably the one medium where financial results are furthest downstream from the production itself. There’s a lot tighter feedback loop between a movie’s popularity and its profitability than there is with a TV show. Maybe there’s a lesson in there for how to promote creativity in other domains, but I’m not sure.
If the “growing burden of knowledge” is a major contributing factor, evaluating the efficacy of various teaching methods may prove fruitful. Perhaps academia is ignoring quicker ways to scale the mountain.
Excited for this, great idea to bring the discussion together in one place.
How would you allocate $10 million to create the most positive long-term progress?
Personally, I would put it towards the mission of The Roots of Progress, which is to to establish a new philosophy of progress for the 21st century. As I wrote in an announcement a few months ago:
I described this more in “What would a thriving progress movement look like?”
Other than that, I would be inclined to fund innovative new models for R&D, such as Ben Reinhardt’s Private ARPA or Convergent Research’s FROs.
Sounds awesome, agree!
Which research areas would you be most excited to support to accelerate progress (energy comes to mind, open to many more for funding via https://www.molecule.to/ and https://www.bio.xyz/), and which “applied metascience” seems most useful beyond new institutions for funding r&d such as PARPA, FROs?
Nanotech and longevity seem underrated. A few years ago I would have said fusion but now there seems to be a lot of investment there.
What are the big questions in progress studies (and why do they matter, if it’s not obvious)?
How can we define “progress”? How can we measure it?
What are the benefits of progress, and what are the costs and risks? How do they weigh out?
What are the root causes of progress? How can we drive it?
What should we as a society do about progress?
More here: What is a “philosophy of progress?”
Two Questions :
Have you read Ada Palmers Terra Ignota series? If so what do you think? If not then consider giving it a try, the setting and philosophy are relevant to this movement!
What do you think about the idea that declining construction of new housing (especially in cities), deurbanization during the late 20th century, and the general trend in the US toward sprawling and expensive car-centric suburbs are core parts explanation for the present stagnation of progress?
1. I started reading Too Like the Lightning but haven’t finished. Love the flying cars though!
2. I see declining housing construction as primarily a symptom rather than a cause of an economic slowdown, although there are reciprocal effects and housing shortages can exacerbate stagnation.
I am not against sprawling suburbs, I think they are actually where a lot of people want to be (especially families with young children). Similarly, I am not against cars. I do suspect that something went wrong with city design when it comes to cars. One example is how we mix up streets and roads.
I’m interested in the role of education in progress, particularly childhood education. I believe that accelerating education and promoting early graduation of students is key for progress in many different domains chiefly by counteracting the burden of knowledge (https://www.frbsf.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2_BurdenOfKnowledge.pdf). I also believe that many people discount how much more efficient education could be made.
What are your thoughts on childhood (birth to around age 18) education as it relates to progress and do you know people involved with progress studies that are working on education?
I’m hoping to publish more of my thoughts on education as it relates to progress in the future. Do you personally have questions or thoughts on the relation between progress and education that you would like to see people explore?
Great topic. A few thoughts on the relationship between progress and education.
Historically, the most notable thing about education is that children now get a lot more of it. Global literacy rates were 12% in 1800 and 86% in 2016. Average years of schooling was 3.7 in the US in 1870, and is 13.4 years in 2017. A lot of this was driven by rising incomes: when families get wealthier, children don’t have to work, and the family can afford to send them to school.
This directly represents progress: it is better for individual well-being to be literate and have at least a basic education. It also drove progress: a more educated workforce can be more productive, and has more human capital for R&D.
However, this trend is largely tapped out. Now that most people go to school, and most are literate, there isn’t more much more progress to made on those dimensions. (You could even argue that we’ve gone a bit too far: too many people going to college, and spending too much money / taking on too much debt for it.)
Further, another notable thing about education is that we haven’t made much progress in how we teach or (as far as I can tell) in the quality of outcomes. (If anything, my impression is that outcomes have slipped.) Except for teaching more math and science, today’s public education is not that far from the one-room schoolhouses of the 19th century. Many more radical and innovative ideas have been proposed (e.g., Montessori), and have gotten some traction, but are still niches.
I think there is a lot of room for innovation in pedagogy, but very few are focused on this. My friends at Higher Ground Education / Montessorium are working on this (their private high school, the Academy of Thought and Industry, commissioned me to create a progress course). I’ll invite them to comment!
I’d love to hear from Montessorium/ Higher Ground Education. I have been following some of what they post online with great interest. I’ve also talked to Simone Collins a bit about The Collins’ Institute a while back and saw that Malcolm Collins spoke at the most recent Great Rethink in Education conference that Montessorium and Joe Connor put on.
I’ll also add that probably more people are focused on innovation in pedagogy than you may believe. Some of them end up fighting for clear, systematic explicit instruction in phonics which doesn’t feel very innovative because it’s an old, effective idea that was crowded out by some newer bad ideas. There are similar battles in mathematics pedagogy, music pedagogy, and more.
That said, we seem to agree there is need for more focus. And perhaps we agree that there needs to be more radical innovation.
Given recent events, are you concerned about progress studies being too closely associated with the Bay Area-centric Rationalist and Effective Altruism communities (even down to using the LessWrong software for this forum)?
I think the progress community has its own identity that is distinct from (if partially overlapping with) adjacent communities such as rationalism. For instance, I got interested in progress when I knew very little about rationalism and nothing about EA. The article that coined the term “progress studies” was published in The Atlantic, not on LessWrong.
Along the way, the communities discovered each other and found we had a lot of interesting things to talk about. But there is a set of motivations animating the progress effort that is original and not derivative of any contemporaneous movement.
I think the most important thing for us to do here is to focus first and foremost on the facts of reality that we think are most interesting, the goals and values that we think are most important, and the premises or principles that we think are most deeply true, and follow all that where it leads—with our relationship to any other intellectual communities or movements being a distant second.
Note that “smart, rich, and free” roughly tracks David Pearce’s three supers: superintelligence, superlongevity, and superhappiness.
How do you (and, separately, the Progress Studies community broadly) relate to hard takeoff risk from AI?
I can only speak for myself.
I think that AI safety is a real issue. Many (most?) new technologies create serious safety issues, and it’s important to take them seriously so that we can mitigate risk. I think this is mostly a job for the technologists and founders who are actually developing and deploying the technology.
I think that “hard takeoff” scenarios are (almost by definition?) extremely difficult to reason about, and thus necessarily involve a large degree of speculation. I can’t prove that it won’t happen, but any such scenario seems well outside our ability to predict or control.
A more likely AI global catastrophe scenario, to my mind, is: Over the coming years or decades, we gradually deploy AI more and more as the control system for every major part of the economy. AI traders dominate financial markets; AI control systems run factories and power plants; all our vehicles are autonomous, for both passengers and cargo; etc. And then at some point we hit an OOD edge case that causes some kind of crash that ripples through the entire economy, causing trillions of dollars worth of damage. A complex system failure that makes the Great Depression look like a picnic.
In any case, I’m glad some smart people are thinking about AI safety up front and working on it now.
Without referring to other people’s views or research, do you have a personal intuitive point estimate or spread on when we will have AIs that can do all economically important tasks?
I dunno… years is too short and centuries maybe too long, so I guess I’d say decades? That is a very wide spread though.
And if you really mean all, I place non-zero probability on “never” or “not for a very long time.” After all, we don’t even do all economically important manual tasks using machines yet, and we’ve had powered machinery for 300 years.
I have a very technical question about the history of semiconductors.
I’ve read long ago, that in the 20s Germanium conductance was a mystery, because of parasitic PN junctions caused by contamination and various metallurgical uncontrolled differences...
It seems that some researchers had observed PN diode effects, but also, unable to explain it, have kept the measurement in their drawer… Is there any serious report about that dark age of germanium PN junction ?
More generally, I would like to understand the really underground story of early semiconductors research, when it was an anomaly, impossible to repeat reliably because of missing theory and technology, not the final phase when theory and experiments had connected in the 40s.
Best regards.
I don’t know! But I’m trying to recruit help on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jasoncrawford/status/1595168485004279808
Many Thanks !
Let’s hope it works.
Here’s one reply:
https://twitter.com/carmichaeljr/status/1595177270959800322
Where is anti-aging (to the point of indefinite lifespans) land on your list of priorities and why is it not priority #1?
It is high up there! In fact, sometimes in interviews I’m asked whether there is an R&D priority that stands out, and multiple times I’ve named longevity. If you solve that, it gives you more time to solve all other problems.
The main reason I wouldn’t want to call it “#1” is because that implies some universal total ordering over all possible R&D avenues, and I don’t believe in that. Some things are more important than others, but, absent an imminent global catastrophe, I’m a pluralist about R&D priorities. People should work on whatever they have a unique vision for or are most passionate about, and far be it from me to discourage people who are working on nanotech, nuclear energy, space, AI, etc.
What do you think of sustainable progress?
What exactly do you want to sustain?
I want progress itself to be sustained, including sustained economic growth. Ultimately I want sustained, continuous increases in human well-being.
Typically today, the term “sustainable” means something else. It can mean sustaining the use of a particular technology or a particular infrastructure base, even if that means limiting growth. In this sense, usually, “sustainability” is the opposite of progress: to sustain is to stagnate.
More here:
Unsustainable
A dialogue on growth, progress, and “sustainability”
Reframing “sustainability”
Ultimately, as David Deutsch writes, “only progress is sustainable”.
What does progress mean to you; what does your ideal progress-driven future look like? What are our daily lives like in that future?
No one can predict the future, but here are a few lines I wrote in a recent article:
Elaborating on that a bit, and extrapolating from some of the trends of the past, here are some thing I envision in a technologically and industrially advanced future:
Much higher labor productivity, so that we all earn more rewards for a given effort.
As a consequence, much higher levels of average wealth, to the point where the average person can afford what today are considered luxuries: a large home with high-quality furnishings, a private jet (or flying car), a butler and a nanny (robotic of course), meals without cooking (maybe through nanotech synthesizers), tailored clothing (ditto), etc.
Further, there will be benefits to the average person that are unavailable today even to the super-wealthy: the elimination of cancer and heart disease, vacations to the Moon and Mars, personalized entertainment on demand via AI, etc.
As another consequence, leisure time will increase. The work week will shorten, vacations and holidays will increase, retirement will begin earlier, more people will take a gap year between school and work, more people will take “funemployment” time off in between jobs, etc.
There will be more opportunities for people to find meaningful, engaging, fulfilling work, rather than manual or routine jobs. Or, if we don’t really need to work anymore, people will find engaging and fulfilling hobby projects to occupy their time.
As population grows and people become more and more connected, there will be more opportunities for people to self-organize into niche communities. There will be more opportunities to find friends, colleagues, and romantic partners who share your values and worldview. More generally, there will be more opportunities for individuality and self-expression.
This is a fantastic write-up, and I would like to see more like it.
I always enjoy seeing love lavished on important intermediate artifacts, like a particular paper, or particular tool, or particular storytelling technique. For papers in particular I would love to see piles and piles more highlights, walkthroughs, and appreciation of great papers across all fields.
This is a really good point re: the historical contingency of the environmental movement. It could have gone differently.
Jim, thanks for tuning me on to this book, American Genesis—I read it and found it fascinating. I wrote up some notes and excerpts from it on technocracy and the counterculture here: https://rootsofprogress.org/american-genesis-part-2-technocracy-to-counterculture
Expanding on the “Youth and freedom” idea a bit: My dad was a musician, and always said that most bands’ best albums were their first ones. He figured the bands had been thinking about, refining, and practicing those songs for years and years before even having an opportunity to make an album. Then their first album looks like this singular piece of great work, but it was really the culmination of all the years of toiling in obscurity.
I think there could be something similar going on with at least some of these scientists and their miracle years. They spend all their early years thinking deeply about the problems that interest them, without knowing how to put the pieces together into a solution. Then maybe a new insight or mental model allows them to put everything together and unlock the ideas all at once. So the miracle year is like a band with a great first album: years worth of work coming together once the conditions were right to finally make it happen.
(I guess this is maybe a combination of the “Youth and freedom” and “Right problem at right time” ideas?)
Yeah, I came here to make the same comment. It seems like the main possible dimension Dwarkesh doesn’t cover. With bands there are lots of examples of great first albums that contain all or much of the bands’ best work, and lots of stories about those people writing those songs starting 5 or sometimes even 10 years before the band’s first album was recorded.
I’ll wager that the same thing applies with scientists, even though the tasks are different. When Newton or Einstein or Darwin was younger, each perhaps had versions of many of their famous ideas already in their heads. At age 5, primitive versions, perhaps, but look, Darwin was clearly a guy who was obsessed all his adult life with the endless forms of living beings, so my best guess is he was asking the adults Why Why Why about those same subjects even when he was a small boy.
You spend your childhood thinking about these things, and also slowly picking up the mathematical and investigational tools you’ll need.
Importantly, when you get to be about 20, you also get to the point where people start taking you seriously. And then you publish and have a great year.
Another thing that happens all of a sudden when you get to be about 20: You go to Cambridge for the first time, and there are other people there, both professors and colleagues, who can tell you a lot of new stuff you didn’t know—fresh ideas. Perhaps your ideas in response to it are rapid. Perhaps they have a strong and immediate positive influence.
The careers of Nietzsche and Mozart are counter examples to what you guys are saying. Both of them were prodigies and had very productive careers. They produced their most excellent works at a very rapid frequency just before they tragically went crazy/died.
Agreed that there are plenty of people with long, productive careers!
YAY! SO happy to see this.
Interesting idea, good luck with the project!
Glad to be here!
My own sense is that, yeah the Success brings obligations section is most of it. To add to that: It takes about 10 times as long to realize a design or to propagate or empirically validate a theory, than it does to conceive it, and the one who conceived it is often best positioned to do that work.
Founders usually become maintainers.
Relevant Scott Alexander blogposts: Is Science Slowing Down? (miscellaneous data and discussion) and The Low-Hanging Fruit Argument (suggesting that a low-hanging fruit model can largely explain science getting harder, and giving empirical cruxes for this model).
I’m sure there are many changes to publishing/conferences that have been positive over the last 50 or so years. And I’d love to hear about those, too? But I’m primarily curious in what things we used to do pretty well that you think we’ve lost. If we come upon anything interesting I’d be happy to do a fleshed out research piece on it at some point.
Welcome Christophe!
Excellent post.
Yes, I think policy efforts like this have to have a minimum 10-year time horizon. YIMBY movement has been building for about that long: https://www.slowboring.com/p/ten-years-of-yimbyism-have-accomplished
Many other examples. Silent Spring → NEPA was about 10 years. Mont Pelerin → deregulation of the ’70s was more like 25 years.
BTW, American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) is an org that does draft model legislation, and they are sympathetic to the abundance agenda.
(Copied from Substack)
(Your link to Public education as share of GDP seems to be recursive to this post.)
Really good questions. I also wish there was better historical data, including for the many centuries of history where the one-room-schoolhouse/tutorial method dominated. Very hard to say how many people attended school in Ancient Greece, the proportion of those people relative to various demographics, or even just how big schools were.
Quick and very incomplete tidbits off the top of my head, from a combination of pitch decks and my history of education class:
something like 70% of children > 5 and < 18 in the US were in public primary schools as early as 1880
the delta between that and present numbers is largely about the expansion of high school attendance
pre-20th c. US public education spending was something on the order of a thousandth of a percent of today’s spending (after adjusting for today’s dollars)
today there are about 100k public schools and 30k private schools in the US, and those numbers have been steady for a couple of decades
today roughly 1 in every 1000 adults in the US is a professional teacher in primary or secondary education
Early adopter influence is one in some cases, I think when the tech plays a part in providing infrastructure, perhaps also elsewhere.
Kelly talks about crypto, and this is my motivating example here:
Today, though decentralised in name, most of the biggest organisations in crypto are controlled by tiny groups of people, typically single digits (for the orgs where voting takes place on the blockchain, you can verify this yourself).
Such concentration isn’t really a problem when a space is small, like crypto is today (relatively: <1 million active users by far; etc). But it becomes significant when the tech becomes widely adopted. For example, Ethereum, the most important blockchain right now, is de facto (could argue de jure) controlled by Vitalik Buterin. If trillions of dollars of industries are moved onto Ethereum (like, perhaps the $14tr securities mkt), then that becomes problematic (specially if people less socially-minded then Vitalik are influential!)
New infrastructure technology creates new elites from the people who were there first. I suppose trains are a historic example. That concentration of power only comes when blockchain works really well, but it can be problematic
I suspect the problem comes when these new elites attempt to reframe society. This necessarily causes instability and can block better improvements, even if this reframing is an improvement on the status quo
That’s a good point.
I wouldn’t say that “inequality” alone would be a risk category, but more specifically inequality that leads to future brittleness or fragility, as in your example.
Basically in this case it’s path dependant and certain starting conditions could lead to a worse outcome. This obviously could be the case for AI as well.
The existence of most of the ones you listed sounds questionable.
How about economic risk exposure (for a given person/city/state)? I think there is already a ton of research on this.
E.g. funding some new nuclear power research could provide a 10000x ROI but .0000X% danger of destroying the city/area of the research facility.
As I was writing that post, I was thinking in the back of my mind about this distinction:
Operational safety: safety from things that are already happening, where we can learn from experience, iterate on solutions, and improve safety metrics over time
Development safety: safety from new technology that hasn’t been developed yet, where we try to mitigate the harms ahead of time, by theoretical models of risk/harm, or by early small-scale testing ahead of deployment, etc.
This is now revised and published, thanks all for your comments! Some key revisions:
Calling safety a *dimension* of progress instead of a “part”
Discussion of tradeoffs between the dimensions
Discussion of sequencing in general and DTD in particular
Looking forward to meeting everyone!
What do you imagine the long-term benefits of WFH will be? There’s obviously personal pros and cons, but beyond those, it really only seems like Real Estate entities have much to benefit from permanent office-employment, and people in that space don’t seem to be happy with the way things are headed. Even the WSJ has been very subtly pushing a return-to-office campaign in the last several months (Most Recently: https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/your-money-matters/bosses-want-workers-back-in-the-office-can-they-force-you-to-return/042c8fdc-90bb-4fc1-b596-a205c1f8ddff?mod=Searchresults_pos1&page=1).
Most recently, I’ve seen speculation of notable improvements for the Future of Cities in regards to WFH trends. 1.) In-person jobs move to center of cities and residents expand to the edges 2.) traffic congestion significantly drops and 3.) Real Estate prices substantially fall in core areas. (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jue.2021.103331)
It seems to me that that pushing WFH and the technology that enables it should be high on the list of priorities for the Future of Cities, especially with #3; falling real estate prices in urban areas may somewhat ease housing crises for the workers that have no choice but to remain working in-person in core urban areas (service, manufacturing, healthcare, etc).
I think the biggest benefit is globalizing the talent market. The more remote work we have, the more companies can hire from the entire global talent pool, and workers can choose from the entire global set of employers. That is a vast labor market expansion.
Great essay! And clearly you put your elbow grease in to make it flow and feel right rhetorically. Mwah. That catalogue of hurdles was very well thought out.
I have one comment on the following:
“If it were, say, a millwright, he would have to learn enough about machines to go beyond the kinds that he had been taught to make through apprenticeship, and invent something entirely new. Where would this knowledge have come from?”
I was just listening to Esther Duflo talk about mathematics ability and difference between street kids who sell produce and students in school. The 10 year old math practitioner in the streets can solve very complex practical problems involving two divisions, an additions, and a subtraction quickly with a high degree of accuracy. But in the study which ratcheted up the abstraction layers of the question to the practitioners, they quickly fell off as the questions became more abstracted out (even when given monetary incentive to solve the problem!).
Similarly students in school weren’t able to climb down the ladder from abstraction to application. And when they tried, they needed pen and paper and took 10 minutes to figure it out.
This study once again indicates the difficulty of transfer. What is learned in one area only with conscious and deliberate practice can be applied to another.
But another more subtle takeaway is possible, namely that the vast majority of millwrights don’t engage in philosophical abstraction of the art of millwrighting, hunting for foundational and transferable principles to other fields. You present it as a ‘knowledge problem’. Perhaps we can get even more precise. It’s that millwrights don’t teach their apprentices general principles, because they themselves never did formulate explicit general principles about machines. Until there are general principles, there are few inventors. It’s a science problem. Technique without science is sterile.
The Hamming Principle: Archimedes requires Euclids, not Euclids Archimedes.
Very well written.
An exception to the theory that “Safety is properly a goal of progress” is the research and development for the military. One could argue that guns, tanks, and drones are begin developed to protect the citizens of the country but by causing harm to the opposing faction. I guess it could be rephrased as ” Safety of the consumer/user/beneficiary is a goal of progress”. It is pedantic at best. The development of nuclear weapons opens a whole new can of worms, where one can argue that each country must develop the weapons for its own security. In either case, as you mentioned risks of these technologies must be determined and mutually agreed upon as policy in a democratic setup (which includes technocrats, politicians, and civil society) before proceeding with development.
I think this flows directly into why it seems intuitive that new ideas are getting harder to find. For example, all the obvious ideas in mobile apps were explored as businesses from 2005~2015, and it’s hard to think of a genuinely new mobile app concept that isn’t just a variation on an established business.
If you were trying to, say, disrupt the taxi industry using computer technology in 1998, you would run into a big lack of infrastructure. Would people request a taxi from a website? Then people couldn’t request a taxi without visiting a place such as a PC cafe. There would be no way to process payments. There would be no way to track drivers using GPS—which did exist, but there were no internet-connected wireless GPS devices. In fact, how would you communicate with the drivers? By cell phone? Would you hire human dispatchers? What’s the value add on top of phone-dispatched taxis then?
Clearly, there was a right time to start a computer-enhanced taxi service, and that time was 2005~2015. By 2015, the idea had been had.
Yes, I agree. But note that new breakthrough technologies open up whole new fields of ideas that are suddenly “easy to find”—as per your very example. So another way to look at the question is what affects the rate of growth in new fields.
More evidence that, until quite recently, it paid to make a good movie to get a big audience, but that’s no longer the case. For several years, critics ratings for the top ten movies have steadily diverged from audience ratings. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-08-28/critics-and-fans-have-never-disagreed-more-about-movies
I think the counterexample of nuclear engineering is instructive. It was not halted, but remains heavily regulated internationally, and for that reason, progress in nuclear power has been greatly slowed—but so has proliferation.
It was halted de facto if not de jure, at least in the US.
I think if it had not been stunted, we’d have lots of cheap, reliable, clean nuclear power, and I doubt that nuclear proliferation would have been significantly accelerated—do you think it would have been?
There’s a reasonable argument that we all lose out by calling programmers software engineers, given they lack the training in forensic analysis, risk assessment, safety factors engineering, and identifying failure modes that other engineering disciplines (i.e. civil, mechanical, materials, electrical) have to train in.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/programmers-should-not-call-themselves-engineers/414271/
A lot of energy in the AI safety conversation goes into philosophizing and trying to reinvent from scratch systems of safety engineering that have been built and refined for centuries around everything from bridges to rockets to industrial processes and nuclear reactors, and we are worse off for it.
This is good. I would like (and was expecting to read) some more explicit discussion of exaggerated safety demands, which is sometimes called “safetyism.” Clearly the idea that demands for safety shouldn’t hamper progress and quality of life too much is present in this essay (and in much of progress studies in general), but it feels weirdly unacknowledged right now.
This (and part 2, which maybe isn’t on the forum yet?) were really interesting, thanks. Pairs well with American Genesis, which I am in the middle of.
Do you think engineering programs today are turning out students who aren’t suited to the needs of industry? My only first-hand experience here is with computer science graduates and professional software engineering. It’s true that software development in industry involves a bunch of learning and wisdom that you don’t get in school and only develop on the job—for instance, how to write code to deal with errors, how to monitor a web site/app for high availability, etc. It’s further true that the professors don’t teach the practical industry stuff because they don’t know it themselves, never having done it. I could see improvement in those areas. On the other hand, I’ve always felt that the formal education did provide something valuable and that learning the rest on the job worked fairly well.
Jason:
If you haven’t already read the work of the late Aaron Wildavsky, I would highly recommend it because he devoted much of his life’s work to the exact issue you tee up here. I’d recommend two of his books to start. The first is Risk and Culture co-authored with Mary Douglas, and the second is his absolutely remarkable Searching for Safety, which served as the inspiration for my book on Permissionless Innovation.
Here are a few choice quotes from Risk and Culture:
“Relative safety is not a static but rather a dynamic product of learning from error over time. . . . The fewer the trails and the fewer the mistakes to learn from, the more error remains uncorrected.” (p. 195)
“The ability to learn from errors and gain experience in coping with a wide variety of difficulties, has proved a greater aid to preservation of the species than efforts to create a narrow band of controlled conditions within which they would flourish for a time… “ (p. 196)
“If some degree of risk is inevitable, suppressing it in one place often merely moves it to another. Shifting risks may be more dangerous than tolerating them, both because those who face new risks may be unaccustomed to them and because those who no longer face old ones may be more vulnerable when conditions change.” (p. 197)
And then in Searching for Safety, Wildavsky went on to build on that logic as he warned of the dangers of “trial without error” reasoning, and contrasted it with the trial-and-error method of evaluating risk and seeking wise solutions to it. Wildavsky argued that wisdom and safety are born of experience and that we can learn how to be wealthier and healthier as individuals and a society only by first being willing to embrace uncertainty and even occasional failure. I’ve probably quoted this passage from that book in more of my work than anything else I can think of:
“The direct implication of trial without error is obvious: If you can do nothing without knowing first how it will turn out, you cannot do anything at all. An indirect implication of trial without error is that if trying new things is made more costly, there will be fewer departures from past practice; this very lack of change may itself be dangerous in forgoing chances to reduce existing hazards. . . . . Existing hazards will continue to cause harm if we fail to reduce them by taking advantage of the opportunity to benefit from repeated trials.”
In my next book on AI governance, I extend this framework to AI risk.
Ah, thanks, I have read a little bit of Searching for Safety in the past, but had forgotten about this.
I largely agree with this approach. The one problem is when dealing with catastrophic risks, you can’t afford to have an error. In the case of existential risk, there is literally no way to learn or recover from mistakes. In general the worse the risk, the more you need careful analysis and planning up front.
Agreed, Jason. I’ll add that it’s trendy among the longtermists to speak of biosecurity, but it seems obvious to me that the FDA, not the legality of admittedly dangerous research, is the biggest obstacle to genuine biosecurity. We could have had vaccines for Covid by spring 2020, and without Eroom’s Law we might have had them by January 2020. And we could have had strain updates in real time. So an agency that was designed to make us safe made us less safe, and many people focused on safety in this domain continue to miss the forest for the trees. Often arguments about safety are problematic because of these kinds of failures, not because safety isn’t a valuable form of progress (it is).
I found myself nodding along to most of this and really appreciate the positive vision and integration of safety and progress. Two critical comments:
In the last section you basically assert an alternative to the supposed progress/safety tradeoff, one which I prefer. But it left unanswered (and even unasked) a lot of the live questions I have about this topic. It seems like there are broader cultural patterns of (a) overblowing or even completely manufacturing risks, and (b) decreasing our tolerance for risk in a way that is less than intentional. And these often seem like the major source of objections to a pro-progress approach!
Second: there’s also a moral dimension to safety. I doubt if there’s are processes that completely safeguard us from nuclear war, absent enough good people to maintain and man those processes. Our moral excellence in ongoing mastery of the natural world just does demand that we stop lagging in our mastery of ourselves; insofar as that lag is getting worse, that’s a risk that’s probably irreducible.
Hi Jason,
A few comments. I like the basic idea, but he article seems too fawning and just does not provide enough of a Scylla and Charybdis of where “safety” goes right and where it can go wrong. The hidden context, I believe, is the high-profile catalyzing exposure of x-risk and longtermist ideas to the broader public.
Here are less than a few thoughts on some of your statements.
“Safety is properly a goal of progress.”
Certainly safety is not properly a goal of progress, any more than seatbelt is a goal of fast transportation. Safety is one method of achieving progress by reducing risks, costs, or “the error rate.”
“We’ve made a lot of progress on these already, but there’s no reason to stop improving as long as the risk is greater than zero.”
The law of diminishing returns applies to safety as to everything else. It’s precisely when people talk about the safety as though “every little bit helps” that we get nonsensical regulation, unnecessarily high costs, disastrous environmental review, IRBs which kill social science. There must be reasonable way of deciding which risks must continually be decreased and which we can and should live with. Safety can be cudgel against progress, even though it can also be a helpmate of it.
“Being proactive about safety means identifying risks via theory, ahead of experience, and there are inherent epistemic limits to this.”
This point is good and could use expansion. What are the limits? When are they greater and when are there lesser epistemic limitations?
“This should be the job of professional “ethics” fields: instead of problematizing research or technology, applied ethics should teach technologists how to respond constructively to risk and how to maximize safety while still moving forward with their careers.”
I don’t know what it means to “problematize research”, research seems problem-ridden already. But also this comment seems to contradict an earlier point where you stated that engineers are best situated to work on the safety of the systems they build. Which is it? The engineers or the ethicists?
I have a bioethicist on my team, and I think he’s invaluable because he offers a coherent method for thinking through ethical problems (especially end of life issues and informed consent issues). But it’s important to recognize that his particular method is dependent, as all ethical systems are, upon a particular metaphysics, to use a dirty term loathed by most ethicists. Not that we have to wait for everyone to have the same metaphysics to work on big safety or big progress—we could never do anything in that case. For in that case, we’d be stuck like Russ Roberts, in his articles against utilitarianism, unable to judge whether free trade is worth the cost of one person’s workforce participation. But metaphysics does offer some guidance about tradeoffs we should and shouldn’t make by providing useful if, sometimes vague, definitions of human life, human flourishing, human moral responsibility. There are real differences between people on these definitions, which lead to very different ethical conclusions about which tradeoffs we should and should not make. Indeed, how much safety we should invest in is informed by our metaphysical and meta-ethical assumptions.
I think trained ethicists with an engineering or medical degree are extremely helpful. In our space that’s a minority opinion. But, like having a lawyer well-versed in case law, the excellent ethicist can quickly see different implications and applications of a process, and be able to provide advice on potential pitfalls, low-cost safety features, and mis-applications that were not immediately obvious consequences.
I am curious how we can use the theory of AI Safety (although it is still in its formative stages) to address safety and progress. Progress safety seems very important, it could be approached from policy level or exploratory engineering. Perhaps there is an overlap between AI safety and Progress safety. Overall, very intriguing idea to think about , looking forward to the full comment.
It seems to be related with moral uncertainty, that is, when trying to understand whether to pursue a technology that has a possibility of existential risk but has positive externalities that outweigh the hazards, do you choose to pursue it or not.
This was interesting, thanks. Totally agree that plastic is underrated, and that materials in general are underappreciated.
I would love to hear more of the history of how plastic was developed, and to understand better what all the different types of plastic are and how they relate to each other.
Synbio is a likely source of new materials; also nanotech?
I do see synbio as the most promising source of new materials with a huge range of properties, scalable manufacturing, and ability to come down cost curves amongst other tailwinds. Graphene, as an example of perhaps a nanotech material, is also scaling well in an array of uses after surviving a hype cycle. Metamaterials are talked about a lot, but seems like we’re still earlier in their commercialization from my limited understanding of them.
On the history of the development of plastics, this is thorough and one of the better resources I’ve found. It’s a 20 part series of articles (and counting since last I checked). I’ve linked all of them here as the url path naming convention is inconsistent.
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 1
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials—Part 2
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials, Part 3
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials, Part 4
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 5
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 6
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 7
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 8
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 9
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 10
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 11
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 12
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials, Part 13
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 14
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 15
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 16
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 17
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 18
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 19
Tracing the History of Polymeric Materials: Part 20
Another future potential to consider is atomically precise manufacturing—true “nanotech”, rather than simply nanomaterials—which could allow some really incredible possibilities such as manufacturing or construction with diamond. See Where Is My Flying Car?
That blog series looks great, thank you!
Sure thing, thanks for the link!
True atomic scale manufacturing is definitely an exciting future tech! One angle from some proponents of cell-free catalysis is that enzymes is a path to atomic scale manufacturing and assembly. For example, Aether Bio has nano-manufacturing in the spirit of what you are saying as their vision.
Suggested by this comment:
Survey question for researchers who apply for and use grant funding in their research:
If your existing funding could be spent in an unconstrained fashion, what fraction of grant dollars would you spend significantly differently?
The Fast Grants granters surveyed their grantees on an analogous query:
Thanks! I like this answer a lot since it suggests a nice/easy quantitative version of the question:
If your existing funding could be spent in an unconstrained fashion, what fraction of grant dollars would you spend significantly differently?
I think this scales between 0% (== fully aligned) and 100% (==totally different) research in a pretty straightforward way.
It only captures the “grant dollars” part of the original question (and not, e.g., deciding on a specialization in order to get a better chance at a tenure track position, or changing research in order to get a higher chance of getting past journal reviewers), but that’s still pretty valuable.
Economic goods (things of which more is preferred to less) don’t have to be tangible things made of atoms and we’re still confused on how to think about growth and utility, or at least I am. So I agree that the value-per-atom intuition isn’t reliable.
I think the term “standard of living” is not defined very rigorously, but is generally understood to mean the overall material conditions of life possible in a given time and place. There are reasonable definitions at Wikipedia, the Encyclopedia Britannica, and Investopedia. (I checked Our World in Data’s entry on “Economic growth” and their essay “The short history of global living conditions and why it matters that we know it,” but these articles don’t seem to define the term.)
I would consider it to include:
the size and comfort of homes and their amenities (heating and A/C, water and sewage, electricity, gas)
the availability and variety of fresh, nutritious food
the quantity and quality of possessions that the average person has (clothes, electronics, tools, jewelry, sporting equipment, etc.)
the opportunity to work a good job and to avoid excessive or harsh manual labor or other working conditions, and to have leisure time (including leisure for children in school, and the elderly in retirement)
the ability to travel with speed, convenience, and comfort
the ability to communicate for business or socializing
access to knowledge, entertainment, art and culture
overall health and protection from disease
safety from accidents and disasters
Hans Rosling has a simplified way to think about income levels that I find helpful, where he looks at drinking water, transportation, cooking, eating, and sleeping.
If (all else being equal) there is an improvement in any of those factors or similar factors, then living standards have been raised.
The typical metric used to measure living standards is GDP per capita. GDP doesn’t exactly correspond to or capture quality of life, but it’s the best metric we have, and it tends to be highly correlated with other quality-of-life metrics such as life expectancy or literacy rates.
I notice that Marginal Revolution University has a relevant video: Real GDP Per Capita and the Standard of Living
Thank you for this thoughtful comment, and many apologies for the delayed reply.
I’ve worked through some thoughts, and I’m very eager to hear (from you or anyone else) whether I’m “onto something.”
From my reading, progress studies defines progress as advancement that raises standards of living.
My ‘challenge’ (that is, a complicating notion that I think gets us somewhere helpful): notions of progress are intrinsically normative; they describe what types of lives people ought to live. Consider:
Who cares about electronics? Only a highly electronically-minded society, and a community that views access to electronics as a pre-requisite for a meaningful life. Those assumptions in turn assume shared values: that global connectivity or access to labor are intrinsically enriching. (More likely, they are conducive to continuing or accelerating progress as we view it).
The best work I’ve found on these questions is the theory of capabilities Amartya Sen and Martha Nussbaum developed over many years of collaboration. Capabilities describe “things you can do.” In understanding ‘development’ (in the sense of ‘developing country’, (an area of concern with many tendrils in progress theory), Sen and Nussbaum ask first: what do people want to do? What kinds of lives do they want to live? As they phrase it, a capability approach to development focuses on enhancing individuals’ capability of achieving the kind of lives they have reason to value.
So: what is the good life? Progress Studies has not examined this question as rigorously as it might. Notions of progress work relative to the capabilities that progress aims to (or is imagined to) create. Here’s a worked example. I often hear, “the Apollo mission was kind of a waste.” But progress, at the Apollo mission’s time, meant allowing people progress toward some future in which the moon is an American suburb (see: any media of the time). I imagine space colonies seemed more important when nuclear war might have rendered the earth uninhabitable. The Apollo mission looked exactly like progress at its time, seemed perfectly reasonable to pursue. Now, what we mean by progress has changed, but we have yet to notice, in part because we have not yet defined the specific capabilities we have aimed progress toward.
I have reason to believe there is contestation here. From my highly informal sample of well-educated people in the Bay Area, for some, space colonies seem to represent progress; for others, an inhabitable and less technological earth seem to represent progress. These two, highly local cultural communities have different views of what progress is. My theoretical challenge is: Progress Studies ought to be able to explain why two communities can view progress differently, and do so in its own terms; that is, in a theory that adequately defines what progress is.
To make progress toward this theoretical challenge, my general research question would be: What can we learn about progress by discussing the capabilities progress imagines itself to create?
Some methods I’ve pondered:
- We might begin by making implicit discussions within Progress Studies explicit (e.g., discourse analysis).
- We might discuss how communities decide what capabilities they want to create.
- We might do historical analysis to see how progress has been understood historically in the recent (50 year) to ancient (1,000+ year) past.
What do you (and the rest of the forum) think?
EDIT: If I’ve missed germane literature/posts in my characterizations here, please point me toward them.
This is an excellent subject area with a ton of material—especially because so many 19th and 20th century social movements were so deeply tied with notions of social, economic, and technological progress, and often sought to use novel technologies to drive revolutionary change. In many cases, solidarity and freedom from hardship were seen as going hand-in-hand with modernity and industrialization.
Thanks for sharing your story. Although there are a lot of disability advocacy groups, progress studies is in a unique position in that it can detail technologies that enable people to live rich lives who otherwise would not be able to.
I would love a follow up article on the technologies that are most essential for your wife’s life and how they work both in the technical and socio-cultural sense.
Thanks very much! Yes, I’d be glad to write a follow up piece like that. Appreciate the suggestion!
Looking forward to meeting some Boston folks!
Thanks for the thoughtful comments.
This fascinating thread on the EA forum provides some really interesting data on the relationship between GDP growth and happiness.
I think certain types of innovation clearly cause an immediate increase in human welfare (ie medical advances, longevity increases, ways to decrease various forms of risk that lead to more safety), but other than these particular categories of goods, I think we reached a point of saturation where better material goods are of negligible marginal welfare value. Despite this, changes to social dynamics (ie things that cause less socialization, increase greater inequality, increase status desires like instagram) can cause a loss of welfare. My model is that pursuing progress in material goods may lead to social costs. Specifically, if the increase in material innovation/decrease in costs provides negligible welfare value but the social impact provides real costs, people will feel worse off (and be right!).
I want people to aspire to be wealthier so we can have more demand for progress and subsequently, more progress. It’s very tricky to think of ways to increase one’s wealth that isn’t then lost to relative status games. IE if you provide everyone with an extra $20,000 per year, I suspect it will increase aggregate costs (lost to cost disease) by $20,000 per capita and leave the overwhelming majority of people in very similar positions.
I think its very challenging to think of subsidies to welfare that aren’t immediately then lost through status competitions (and are actually feasible to implement).
I love Stubborn Attachments and think its point about Wealth Plus is true. Unfortunately, Stubborn Attachments does not attempt to grapple with what is included in Wealth Plus and what policies we should pursue to increase it. There is a lot of evidence in support of what actions people can take to improve their quality of life; unfortunately, for various reasons, it is very challenging for governments to come up with policies that improve human welfare.
I think it would be worthwhile for more people in this community to brainstorm possible ways to connect progress with perceptible benefits in welfare. The only one I can think of is connecting wealth/gdp to hours worked. I think in a future where these cycles are reinforcing, there will be much more demand for progress.
I would like to understand what the biggest advantages of the h-index are. It seems to me the advantages are that it balances quantity and quality. Let’s try the opposite for a decade or two. A measurement strategy that gives high weight to quantity or quality.
Here are some ideas, likely bizarre for reasons others will eagerly point out.
S-index = |N-log(C)|^log(C)
N = number of topics written on as measured by Milojević 2015 or more simply the unique keywords used by the journals to describe the article. C = total citations.
That formula is a response to Matt Clancy’s paper on innovation getting harder. He points out that the number of topics is slowing down. So the incentive under this paradigm to work either on unique topics or on a few topics intently.
Another idea is to think that as science slows down groups and coalitions are becoming more important.
So here is a second idea, almost certainly terrible.
Average h-index of self and all co-authors. This would be something like a measure of the h-strength of one’s network but gives no reward for the size of the network. One effect might be that it encourages strong research networks, which would have pros and cons, granting more freedom to the more productive clusters but making social life more important.
As should be obvious by my initial post I am in complete agreement that the demand side of the equation is underrated (the supply side of progress may be more important, but most of existing discussion seems to focus solely on that).
I appreciate your 2nd point on shifting focus more to how people will directly benefit.
Another question this made me think of is what are the main reasons people don’t already see the benefits? Lack of imagination? Incremental innovation over long periods going unnoticed?
This is largely a response to footnote 2.
In The Moral Consequences of Economic Growth Benjamin Friedman deploys a lot of case studies of social progress and economic growth going hand in hand. Similarly, in Stubborn Attachments, Tyler makes a compelling case the GDP is greatly linked with human-wellbeing, but he also allows that there is more to well-being than the basket of goods that can be currently be purchased. He calls the total basket of goods Wealth Plus. So far so good.
I appreciate that what you do here is look for a way for economic growth to correlate with some level of social change, i.e. more vacation. As a first look, I think this style of thinking hold some promise. It is impossible to detail all the goods that humans choose to purchase or tradeoff against and create public policy around them. But perhaps we can formulate an account of Wealth Plus/ Human Flourishing that takes advantage of the correlation between wealth and wellbeing.
Well-being is likely multiplicative of several species of goods which tradeoff against each other, but are hard to exchange. I want to do more theorizing on this. The example of vacation days vs. productive work is interesting. Can you share more about your model of rival species of goods?
I agree with this. I am just getting into the ‘progress’ literature, and I find a lot of ideas with great practical value to me. That said, most seem to come from a very macro perspective. I’ve been working in the area of funding for 10 years and have made a lot of my own observations, almost all on the personal/relationship level. Things like shared culture/values are important because that can be what empowers people to take a leap together, and it’s especially magical when that culture (say of science) is shared among people who, in other aspects of their lives, do not share culture. Not sure there is a metric for that.
We need to talk more about pure, unadulterated human curiosity, generally summed up as the drive many (but not all) feel to ask and try to answer ‘how does our world work?’ There’s evidence that great scientists are low in the personality trait Agreeableness. So for those who promote the progress movement because of ‘advancing humanity’ (certainly a noble cause), how does that motivation empower a great scientist who ‘just’ wants to understand a physical process? Is it wrong that a person is not motivated by a social cause? If not, is it required that whoever is holding the purse strings assign an intended social benefit to the work?
How many progress studies involve speaking to researchers in longform interviews to hear what they need to do more/better and if the models being put forward jibe with their experiences? I welcome anyone pointing me towards work in this area, and I don’t mean this as a criticism of what’s been done. I think we need to build up other approaches at the same time this econ-based approach is developing. I’m willing to be part of doing that. I’m only about a week into reading so it will take some time to catch up before I can make any significant contribution, though I am also remembering to back grad school where the people studying the philosophy of science were some of the most intellectually intimidating people I ever met.
“Things like shared culture/values are important because that can be what empowers people to take a leap together, and it’s especially magical when that culture (say of science) is shared among people who, in other aspects of their lives, do not share culture.”
I’ve been thinking a lot about this recently. See for example the recent discussion on creating demand for innovation. https://progressforum.org/posts/RhYhhfQ3KTvKhEKF3/to-increase-progress-increase-desire
One dichotomy that might be useful is the distinction between invention and innovation.
Invention, as in the invention of the periodic table, the flying shuttle, and Euclidean geometry requires a set of conditions that foster freedom, unbridled curiosity, debate and play. Here taking a leap together to learn something new.
Innovation, as in taking an idea or invention and investing in it to make something real, profitable, or socially beneficial. Taking a leap together to get something done.
Not all progress comes from innovation, much of progress, perhaps even the most important types, come from invention and discovery. These are two sides of the same system, both necessary, like upper and lower teeth.
In the progress studies community, you can see this divide too. Some people are more purely interested in investigating how progress happens, others in making it happen. Two rows of teeth!
Good review. I was in the middle of reading the book itself when it came out, so I finished that first and just circled back to read your comments.
I appreciated the discussion of culture but thought it could have gone a bit deeper. They discuss the Republic of Letters, but the name Bacon does not appear anywhere in the book. And there are citations to Mokyr but not to Margaret Jacob (I guess because she’s a historian and not an economic historian).
On the question of human capital in the 2nd IR, you say “most people weren’t doing jobs that required more than rudimentary literacy and numeracy.” That’s true, but couldn’t the crucial difference have been made by a small minority of jobs that required advanced education? IR2 depended on electromagnetism (for both electrical power/lighting and electronic communications) and applied chemistry (Bessemer, Haber-Bosch, Bakelite, oil refining, synthetic dyes, pharmaceuticals, etc.) In fact, if you consider the public health improvements that were going on at the same time to be part of it (they were certainly a part of the overall increase in living standards), then it also depended on microbiology. So it seems hard to imagine how it could have happened without a number of researchers/engineers in all of these fields.
Historian’s perspective: the Industrial Revolution was primarily a supply-side phenomenon. Demand may have helped to geographically focus the concentration of new sectors, but technological change occurred because of the desire of producers to make things better and at lower cost, not because idiot peasants realized that cotton clothes were comfortable. Other factors—science, bourgeois/Protestant ethic, coal/raw materials, skills—are also supply side.
Neither necessity nor desire is the mother of invention!
Completely agree, and thank you for that perspective. It’s a bit of a “chicken vs. egg” problem in that sense, and it’s hard to think of anything that is completely supply or demand driven. It does seem like it’s more supply driven in general, although I’m happy to put attention on the demand side because I think it’s being neglected.
Agree with that last point. Both necessity and desire were around since the dawn of humanity. They didn’t create an Industrial Revolution by themselves.
(But you could argue that by the same token, producers also always had the desire to lower their costs / increase quality. It’s not just desire, but opportunity.)
Also, wasn’t there some significant demand-side stuff going on? Wasn’t there a general increase in wealth and consumption levels just before the IR, that was maybe significant in helping to create markets for more/better goods produced by the new manufacturing technology?
Yes, producers have always had the incentive to innovate, and yes, they have always tried to do so (even slave economies were “capitalist”). Only in certain institutional, cultural, and geographical contexts can they be successful. I also think base levels of scientific knowledge are critical (but Anton may disagree in some cases).
As for demand, I refer you to Mokyr’s classic piece: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2119351.
So, sort of. Everything is endogenous. Desmet and Parente argue that market expansion leads to longer firm production runs in differentiated goods and lower per unit fixed costs (thus process innovation). But why was there market expansion in the first place? Population growth and foreign trade? In the latter case, I’m going to be working on this for a long time yet. But it’s important to note that the UK TOT fell during the IR. Supply was outpacing demand in textiles.
Thanks for the Mokyr ref, had not read that one yet. You are truly an encyclopedia of the econ history literature!
Yes, I’m wondering about the market expansion too. Foreign trade does seem to be a part of it?
Related, see this from Anton Howes which I thought was very interesting (emphasis added):
https://antonhowes.substack.com/p/age-of-invention-capital-grains
General note: I find it remarkable how many major developments seem to ultimately trace back to either (1) the Age of Discovery or (2) the printing press. And I find it a remarkable coincidence how those basically happened at the same time.
Ha, I wish. Maybe a children’s illustrated encyclopedia.
Market expansion is definitely an interesting area for research here. Foreign trade shares in the economy were small, but in certain key sectors (i.e. textiles) it was pretty significant. But again, it’s important to unravel whether these markets can be considered A) additional demand or B) won by higher-quality / lower-cost production. That’s the story of the “New Draperies” in the 17th c. and cottons from the 18th.
Anton and I have chatted about this a lot, and I agree with most of this. “Labor push” is a thing, but more for 20th-century developing economies than for first-wave industrializers. See Alvarez-Cuadrado, Francisco, and Markus Poschke. 2011. “Structural Change Out of Agriculture: Labor Push versus Labor Pull.” American Economic Journal: Macroeconomics, 3 (3): 127-58.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head—the fifteenth century is critical in the formation of (early) modernity. David Wootton argues that the Age of Discovery invented the idea of discovery/novelty/invention, and I would love to investigate this idea further. Even beyond the technical challenges of navigation, the notion—which anyone can understand—that there are new things in the world outside the current bounds of human knowledge is critical for getting people to seek out and trust new technologies.
I believe the crucial importance of skilled mechanics, in part because of what I found when researching the threshing machine:
https://rootsofprogress.org/why-did-we-wait-so-long-for-the-threshing-machine
Hey Sahaj. My immediate feedback is that as soon as I start to read this (or your other posts), what strikes me is that it is written in a belligerent and inflammatory style. (In the first sentence, we have “plunder,” “racket,” and “stolen”).
While I think there are many criticisms to be made of universities, I tend not to believe that they are plain evil. So, right off this analysis strikes me as either shallow, or written deliberately to provoke and aggregate the reader. Either way, I’m not interested in reading further.
Sorry if that is harsh feedback, wanted to be blunt and candid.
Seems entirely plausible to me that someone alive today could life an indefinite lifespan. Most people born in the last few years will almost certainly live 50+ years, and that is a lot of time for progress to happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity_escape_velocity
I agree that the article is kind of hard to follow because the concept of state capacity doesn’t feel natural in the article, (this is more a stylistic issue than a conceptual one) when what is meant is something more like regulatory cost-multipliers.
If your audience is a little more left-coded, then ‘state capacity’ is a term more likely to generate agreement than talking about regulatory costs to efficiency, which sounds more libertarian.
I think I would have started the article with an arresting breakdown of how much of a project’s cost were caused by financing, and then used that to show that even low interest rates can’t help the impossibility of building even modest sized projects in the US at decent cost. The cost of financing is a big deal in multi-year projects, so creating policies on how to get things done when interest rates are higher is a big deal.
Now I’m wondering if there is a correlation between low interest rates and regulation. Do low interest rates crowd out low-cost construction, by decreasing the cost of regulation?
Interesting theory here. I hadn’t really thought about how to increase the demand side of the equation. I certainly think it’s generally important to have a population that’s hopeful about the future, open to try new products, and supportive of new, whacky ideas.
That being said, I’d encourage you to consider the supply side (new products/ideas) more deeply. What business factors contribute to a dearth of creative ideas? One might argue that the ad revenue model, which requires enormous amounts of attention, creates a certain kind of incentive structure, creating a very particular opportunity space. If that’s the case, how to invent new business models?
Also, I might look at capital that goes towards innovation. VC and other kinds of early stage capital typically steers clear of scary science projects, where I believe there’s a ton of opportunity. They tend to look for established business models like SaaS and advertising.
Finally, it’s worth noting that there’s still a ton of innovation out there. Uber, AirBnB, Tesla, Apple, Netflix, and many smaller companies are pushing the boundaries of what can be done with our current web and mobile infrastructure; and I see many opportunities now that Web3 is unlocking new ways of organizing human beings.
I think it worthwhile to take a moment to theorize about demand. I think we are all supply-siders in some way.
Aren’t you trying to manufacture demand to consider the supply side? What’s the theory of demand that increases the supply-side?
The selfishness motive for increasing demand is actually weaker than you might think. In the three examples you chose, climate change, Tesla, and Apple, I’d make the case that all three, even Apple(?) pulled demand because they are socially desirable at the same time as personally beneficial.
Having thought it about this some more, I think my point actually buttresses your thesis.
Lets imagine that humans are adaptable to the living standards of current circumstances and have finite competition points. Along the dimension of current circumstances there is zero-sum competition for status and relative power. Demand for status, relative power, and group belonging can swamp demand for a brighter, more efficient future.
So under this theory climate change action is an example where demand moved from the scientific community who identified a negative externality from carbon emissions to a marker of group solidarity and desirability. In this case, the competition to do something about it is probably net-good (although the anti-natal doomerism is a pretty high cost already, if that birth-rate effect is real), since many climate actions are productive.
So a model for boosting demand would be something like:
Identify goods where when demand increases there are long term positive effects. Thinkers and prophets.
Produce media content and communities around those effects. Enthusiasts and fandoms.
Create institutions that actually facilitate those effects. Innovators and political possiblity.
Each of these points requires a population that is not stuck trying to find ways to conform to their dis-innovative peers full time. “Freedom for alternative demand,” you might call it.
(This reminds me of Tyler’s comment on dentists. The marginal dentist doesn’t create much in the way of public goods. But the marginal innovative firm changes the equilibrium of society.)
Thanks Sebastian. I think this is a good way to think about it. “Nudging” demand away from the more zero-sum endeavors and toward productive ones.
Awareness and action on climate change is an especially good case study. Of course as other things, climate-related tech is both demand and supply driven, but there’s no doubt that overall climate awareness has pushed sales of things like solar, EVs, plant-based meats, etc. “goods where when demand increases there are long term positive effects” is a good way to put it.
Your steps 2 and 3 are obviously less clear how implement in practice. Especially finding ways to measure these effects. I mean, it’s pretty hard to measure how much good sci-fi has affected tech progress but long-term I think it’s clear it has.
Regarding the ‘demand cycle’, I thinkTechnological Revolutions and Financial Capital by Carlota Perez is relevant here. Basically technological progress goes through two broad phases of installation and deployment, each with two parts. Installation seems to relate to your 1 and 2 above, while deployment is #3, and it seems to me where progress has stalled. When the progress we have made and the demand we’ve created for that progress is deployed in a way that seems arbitrary or lackluster, the problem goes from stagnation (agent-less) to strangulation (agent-driven).
Perez frames the deployment period as a golden age of synergy that leads to maturity, where the cycle starts over. If that golden age is poorly distributed, then maturity looks less like well-earned growth and more like ossification. Related is the literature on the psychological effects of unfulfilled desire, including being unable to complete things, the inability to acquire, realize gains, pull things in and compose with them.
To take two examples from above, Apple and climate change have both successfully injected demand across the cycle, rather than just frontloading it and letting the chips fall. Apple’s deployment as a firm is much more ‘orderly’ than climate change (a broad movement), whose deployment ranges from dematerialization to anti-natalism to summits with world leaders. Satisfying our desire for Apple products is pretty straightforward, while satisfying our desire to prevent the worst of climate change is much more complicated.
Thank you , very useful …I thought the article gave an understanding to those new to your views and who wish to see the progress movement be considered real...yes GDP is important some governments do not not want to be measured when GDP falls that is why key...I did not understand your neutrality argument...may be I missed that in the article...every continued success in change and progress
I agree that we could use more inspiration, futurism, etc.!
I disagree with your comments on business/economics (which maybe weren’t the real point though?) I don’t think anything about demand explains stagnation.
For travel in particular, it’s wrong to analyze it in terms of the trips people currently take becoming shorter. You should look at the trips people are not taking now because they’re too long, and consider how much more such trips would happen. E.g., think of SF <> Tokyo as a day or weekend trip.
People don’t clamor explicitly for new products and services, but when a business creates something that actually provides much more utility, they flock to it pretty quickly.
Thanks for the thoughts Jason — helped me think a bit more about the idea.
See my response to @daviskedrosky, but I totally agree that in general it is supply-driven. It’s more that I wanted to give more attention to the demand side because it’s not talked about as much. It is a chicken-and-egg problem in the end (and my post doesn’t really discuss the balance).
In regard to “People don’t clamor explicitly for new products and services” I don’t think this is totally true, and it is a mix. And I do think that demand is much more important than many believe in driving what gets built (and regulated, etc).
Your comment did lead me to think more about what kinds of innovation are more demand or supply driven though, and given all of your research I’m curious to hear your thoughts on it.
It seems to me many more incremental innovations are demand driven, while breakthrough innovations are typically supply driven. The only breakthrough innovations I can think of that were more demand driven are the result of large-scale forcing functions, like war or pandemics that radically change the demand for what is wanted and the urgency it’s needed.
Read the Silmarillion and study the elves. In Tolkien’s world the immortality of elves makes them discount local pains immensely, they don’t care about making happy people, and their mistakes are very hard to correct and consequently they are especially risk adverse compared to mankind.
But the elves are musical, rarefied, intelligent, and take the arts seriously, including the art of crafting. They make things which a from a human perspective are magical.
I thought the feature was pretty solid on research. And certainly was deep and explanatory! I wish, however, you were able to pull off a bit more gesturing at the breadth of voices in this space.
Matt Clancy, Brian Potter, who both run top quality substacks in addition to working for the Institute for Progress. Alexey Guzey at New Science. These are good examplars of the kind of gritty in the weeds work we are interested in. Such work reveals why it’s hard to extrapolate out a crisp ‘ideology.’
Towards the end I felt like Jason was given “philosopher of the movement” status, but I’d say it’s more that Tyler Cowen is Darwin and Jason is the Thomas Huxley. :)
Great stuff as usual, Anton! A few thoughts.
One thing I’d like to know about these various machines is the force or torque they were able to produce. I suspect there is a threshold crossed at some point that makes them actually useful for a wide variety of important industrial applications. Sometimes these quantitative performance details are glossed over in the histories (especially since we often don’t have the data), but they can make all the difference. In this essay, I mentioned:
Another example I gave in that essay is computers and processing speed. A slow computer is technically a computer but isn’t actually useful.
Second, I think it’s important that Newcomen’s engine produced motion, rather than sucking/pumping water around, because motion can be applied to many industrial uses—pumping water, but also saw mills, bellows, machine tools, locomotives, steamboats, etc.
This is what David Deutsch calls the “jump to universality.” For an analogy, consider writing systems. The notation system developed 5,000 years ago in Sumer was for tracking inventory of goods and transactions. But it became a system that could represent any idea or concept. Similarly, Newcomen’s engine was developed to pump water out of mines, but it became an engine that could supply any industrial power needs.
Looking forward to Part 2. I am curious about this idea that the steam engine could have been created without any real input from science. Slightly skeptical but very curious!
Thanks Jason,
Great comments.
The torque estimate you shared is, as I understand it, only for one version of the aeolipile—the famous one with the spinning hollow ball with nozzles. That version is often referred to as the aeolipile, which it is not. It is simply one variant of it, and certainly not the one that people used most commonly, which was the much simpler “philosophical bellows” or blowing face form that I illustrated. I think we’d need a different estimate of the torque from a more ordinary aeolipile, e.g. the one portrayed by Branca directed at vanes. I suspect this is also very low, but it’s worth clearing up this very common confusion.
I don’t think it’s correct to say that the Newcomen engine’s breakthrough was that it provided motion. It was still essentially applied to exactly the same things that the Savery engine was—pumping, occasionally with additional pumping-derived mechanical uses like using the pumped water to drive a waterwheel. It is the Watt engine, not the Newcomen engine, that made the breakthrough in directly supplying essentially any any industrial power need (although arguably the Watt engine is an improvement on the Newcomen one, it took over a half a century for it to be developed from it).
In terms of the jump to universality, I certainly had our conversations on this at the back of my mind when writing! One thing I really wanted to show is how people had already been experimenting with or at least considering using thermal energy (steam, and flue effects above fires) for a very wide range of mechanical uses already, and in Part II I will do something similar for applications of atmospheric pressure (though this is still under investigation). At the very least, from this post, I think I’ve demonstrated that the idea of universality from such power sources was nothing new.
An additional note: I’m not sure that torque estimates are necessarily the correct measure to compare the different engines, especially considering their various applications. Comparing the spinning hollow ball with nozzles with Watt’s engine seems completely nonsensical to me—it’s projecting back onto something that was not intended to be used that way at all. It’s presentist bias (something that we need to be especially wary of when studying technological pathways). One of the best theories about what Hero’s device was actually used for is not that it was some toy, but a scientific demonstration in the big debate on the source of the wind (a major debate well into the 17thC). So it’s not comparing like with like. As for comparing Savery and Newcomen, neither of them were used for torque (other than when they pumped for waterwheels, which should make no difference between them). Instead, we need to look at volume of water raised. But even this measure is complicated by all sorts of other factors like very different capital costs (Savery engines were much much cheaper), fuel consumption, and the space required for the engines. This requires further research, however. The Savery engine is in my opinion still very under-researched.
I look forward to debating the next one!
Thanks Anton! Let me step back a bit and clarify where I’m coming from.
I don’t know where you’re going with this, but there are a few kinds of conclusions you might end up on:
Which invention was the most important one, the one that deserves to be called out on our historiographic timelines (did Newcomen “really” invent the steam engine, or was it Savery, or was it de Caus, etc.)
Whether the steam engine “could have been” invented earlier (maybe even in ancient Rome)
Whether science was “needed” to invent the steam engine
And what I’m saying is that in considering those topics, it’s crucial to consider (1) the universality of the mechanism and (2) the amount of force that can be generated (not to mention other factors such as the fuel efficiency and therefore the cost of operation).
It could be that many types of machines operated by steam and/or air pressure for a long time, but if for practical reasons they couldn’t be applied to a wide range of industrial purposes, and if some later design change was needed to achieve that, then I think said design change is what deserves to be called out as the key invention.
I’m sure I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know, just harping on a pet issue of mine.
Step back a bit?! But I like it down here in the weeds!
That’s a very useful way to separate out two issues here, and helps me to clarify what I’m up to.
My main focus is on whether atmospheric pressure exploitation is older than the standard historiography suggests. Hence the choice of title, about whether the steam engine could have been invented earlier.
Part I is really about setting up 1) the pretty uncontroversial claim that it is atmospheric pressure and not steam itself that is the key issue of debate here, because of how human energy exploitation actually developed, and 2) making the slightly more controversial claim that we need to look at industrial atmospheric pressure exploitation in general, and not to focus solely on the Newcomen variant of it.
This is not really to make an argument about what the “real, first” steam engine is, but only to point out that Newcomen’s and Savery’s models were effectively parallel technologies, both in use c.1700-70, and exploiting the same natural phenomenon in very similar ways—both of them, according to the standard historiography, stemming from the discovery of atmospheric pressure. The reason I play up the Savery engine is also because the Newcomen engine has been overemphasised in people’s minds because of its later development by Watt, and not because of what the Newcomen engine itself actually achieved prior to Watt.
Now, I do briefly raise the possibility of a Newcomen engine, and thus a Watt engine, being eventually derived from a Savery engine. I do believe this to be true, and will probably write a sort of Part III arguing this case more fully, but for now I just wanted to narrow the focus of my “why not earlier” question, as I’m looking at it, on how early someone could have successfully exploited atmospheric pressure for industrial use.
Lastly, on science, I see this as a sort of sub-question, though I ought to clarify it in Part II. I’m not at all arguing that “science” was unimportant, as scientia just means knowledge after all. It’s about precisely which knowledge—in this case, whether successful industrial-scale exploitation of atmospheric pressure needed to have stemmed from the discoveries of Torricelli, von Guericke, Huygens, Boyle, and Papin specifically.
Very interesting, thanks! I covered some similar ground in my essay “Draining the swamp;” I think you would enjoy the references in that one. Some thoughts:
Did “medicine” cause the mortality decline?
There is a lot of truth in the McKinlay paper. In particular, it’s true that sanitation efforts probably did more than anything else to improve mortality in the 20th century. I think this is for two reasons: (1) Those techniques are less technologically advanced, and so they arrived first; vaccines and antibiotics that arrived later only get credit for mopping up what was left. (2) Prevention is more effective than cure.
But I think you have to be careful with how you interpret the data. It would be a little too easy to conclude that only certain techniques really mattered and others were not so important, and I think this is the wrong way to look at it.
One key thing to understand is that each disease spreads in its own way. Some are water-borne, some spread via insects or food, etc. This means that a given technique for prevention will work against some diseases and not others. No one technique works against all diseases; we need a collection of techniques.
For instance, you point to the amazing effectiveness of water sanitation. This is correct—against water-borne diseases such as typhoid fever or cholera. But water sanitation doesn’t help with malaria, or for that matter with covid.
Were vaccines relevant to mortality improvements?
This is tricky. First, there is the point I made above that vaccines often came after some simpler technique. But also, two of the biggest successes of vaccines are smallpox and polio.
Looking only at the 20th century (as the McKinlays do, and as is pretty common, especially since this is the period that has the best data) excludes the contributions of the smallpox vaccine, and even earlier the technique of inoculation, both of which date from the 1700s! These were big contributors to mortality declines in the 18th & 19th century.
Polio only had about a 10% fatality rate, but the rest of its victims were paralyzed for life. Looking only at mortality underweights the DALYs lost to polio.
More here.
Comments on specific charts from McKinlay
Measles: this is an odd case. Mortality declined a lot in the early 20th century before the vaccine, but case load did not. That is, just as many people were getting measles, but the fatality rate was declining (unclear why, maybe Vitamin A or some other nutrition issue). The case rate only declined after the vaccine. So again there is a lot of relief-of-suffering that is not being counted here.
Typhoid: yeah, this is water sanitation
Influenza/pneumonia: they appear to have attributed the 1918 epidemic deaths to influenza. However, a lot of these deaths were actually caused by secondary pneumonia, which an antibiotic would have been very helpful against. Also the influenza chart here is hard to find a trend on, because of the epidemic.
Diphtheria: I don’t know why they label “toxoid” on the chart, because the first effective treatment for diphtheria was blood serum, and that was available from the 1890s.
Polio: that high number in 1910 seems to be from a particularly bad epidemic in 1916. If you look at this chart from OWID, it looks like cases were climbing, and deaths were at least not decreasing, until the vaccine came along in 1955. And again, the cases that did not die were generally paralyzed for life in one or more limbs.
Did we need the germ theory?
My reading of the history is that the germ theory was somewhat more important than you make it out to be in this piece.
On water sanitation, it’s true that these efforts began pre-germ theory, based on aesthetics and vague associations between filth/smell and disease. However, these efforts could only go so far unguided by theory. And sometimes they backfired: guided by the miasma theory, Chadwick built sewers that dumped tons of filthy water into the Thames, actually polluting the drinking water (see The Ghost Map). The germ theory helped set targets for water sanitation: they could actually count bacteria in water samples under the microscope. And I don’t think chlorination would have been introduced without germ theory. (Not checking references on this paragraph so I might be getting a few things wrong though)
Pest control is a similar example. Many efforts were begun as early as 18th or even 17th c., but, for instance, malaria and yellow fever were not eliminated until after the exact species of mosquito was discovered for each and its lifecycle and breeding habits carefully studied. Needed science for that one.
Food sanitation also was motivated by an understanding of germ theory. That’s part of how we got the FDA, etc.
Overall, some important progress on mortality was made pre–germ theory, but a lot (I think most) was made after, and I think there’s a reason for that.
I think the war on cancer will be the same. There is some progress we can make, and have already made, without a fundamental understanding of the disease, and of course we should go ahead and do that. But that will plateau at some point without a breakthrough in basic research. After such a breakthrough I would expect progress to accelerate dramatically.
Your point on the proper, theory-led goals of water sanitation is interesting. I think there’s maybe a decent way for us to figure this out.
The copy of Turneaure and Russel’s water sanitation textbook I used was from around 1940. But the first edition of that was from 1901. If we could find some analogous top-tier sources utilized just before some insights from germ theory we could probably figure out how much of the best-practices in planning changed from before/after the pervasion of the theory.
Do you think that would be fair or did I miss something? Because I’d believe you very well might be right. What I wrote was a fair representation of my sources but this is an area where I am very aware that my sources are few. So I don’t hold these beliefs nearly as confidently as my views related to something like physics in the early 1900s where my reading has been far more exhaustive.
That would be an interesting mini-research project. Also one of us could check my references here and see what I was relying on when I made those statements…
Agree: “Good governance matters more than interest rates.”
Pairs well with a point I think you made elsewhere, that we spend trillions on infrastructure (e.g., in the recent infrastructure bill) without focusing on how to get more out of those dollars.
Related, the Transit Costs Project (which Alon Levy works on) just released some case studies.
Side note: I dislike the term “state capacity,” because it conflates the scope of government and its effectiveness. In a context like this, I’d be inclined to use a term like “efficiency” or “cost-effectiveness” (which will be understood by more people anyway).
+1 to the term “state capacity,” I ultimately understood what you meant, but it took a close reading.
Also, great article.
Thanks Garrison! I thought this was well-researched and pretty fair. I responded to some of the critiques.
(Minor correction to your timeline: The Roots of Progress didn’t become its own nonprofit organization until 2021; from 2019 to 2021 I was an independent researcher funded by grants from other organizations.)
From Allison Duettmann:
I’ve considered putting bounties out to create content related to this this. DM me if you want to jam on this!
Fascinating! The more I study medicine and medical history the more disappointed I am with the field. Do you know of any good critiques of the McKinlays’ paper?
I think the general thesis here, that most of the mortality improvements were from sanitation/hygiene rather than from pharma or even vaccines, is fairly well-accepted. But see my comments above for how to interpret this—I don’t think there’s any reason to be disappointed with the medical field.
I don’t but I’m sure they could exist. My expertise with sources in this area is not as in depth as economics or physics history. The reason I was happy to go about publishing is because Grant Miller is known in econ world to be quite expert/careful and good at what he does. So I did have a certain faith that if in the three decades between Mckinlays writing and their papers he’d have rooted out and addressed the primary counterarguments in their two part research.
And of course I’m always open-minded to update my views as things come out now as well
Potentially interesting paper: How predictable is technological progress?
Abstract:
Hey everyone! I was really excited to share this piece and get everyone’s thoughts on the general area, possible extensions, caveats I didn’t think of, etc.
Life sciences is not my particular area of expertise, so I was particularly excited to see what everyone thinks about all of this/if you know interesting books and work I can look in to to learn more.
What the post left me with, in some ways despite itself, was a sense of hope in the possible. Like, I want to go to the idea machine fair… Even more than the new world’s fair.
The internet doesn’t quite hit that visceral sense of the happeningness of it all that a fair does.
Indeed, the internet is great at many things but doesn’t really replace events and salons and conferences and so on.
I enjoy these posts! Two suggestions:
Open links in a new tab
Just paste screenshots of standalone tweets, or the full text. (Reduces friction vs having to load a new page.)
Doesn’t seem to be a way to have links open in a new tab, but if you click through to the original post, the links on that page will open in new tabs.
I have experimented with embedding, screenshotting, or quoting full tweets but I haven’t liked how it has turned out in practice, so I keep reverting to simple links.
Thanks for the suggestions!
A new study out today finds that keeping Diablo Canyon open would:
help avoid blackouts
significantly reduce electric power costs
significantly reduce emissions and natural gas use
accelerate progress toward the state’s clean energy goals
Full report from the Brattle Group (PDF)
Twitter thread from me with highlights
It’s remarkable that someone used the word ‘synergy’ to describe his relationship with Claude Shannon. Clearly the word choice indicates someone obsessed with his work. The main contributor to that page is a “Dr. K.” I have only figured out that he is a retired professor living on or near Corfu. I sent him a message.
One interesting thing: when you look at the “best” colleges for specific subjects say 80 years ago it seems like there was more heterogeneity and small colleges with some specialty. Today the best colleges are all “the best” at every subject.
Yes, I’ve been thinking about this often.
I do think it’s important to work on AI safety. I would like to learn more about it. I have been following the debate on this to at least some extent.
If we can make safe AI, then I think it has enormous potential, possibly even at the PASTA level. There’s a paper from Robin Hanson where he models the log history of economic growth as a series of three exponential modes (very roughly, “hunting,” “farming,” and “industry”) and speculates that if there is a fourth mode, we are due for it soon—and that it could create growth levels ~2 orders of magnitude greater than we’ve seen in the Industrial Age. PASTA is certainly a candidate for such a fourth mode.
But I think that progress studies is still relevant, even in such a world—perhaps far more relevant. If we retain control over the future, then we will need to make choices that shape the future, and progress studies should guide us.
And of course, there are so many unknown unknowns here that we can’t be sure that AGI will happen, or on what timescale. So it’s also important to keep working other angles (nanotech, longevity, etc.) For that reason, although I understand the sentiment, I don’t think it would literally be “silly if we were working on NSF spending when the takeoff began.” We should be working on many things at once.
I’m curious, what’s your main doubt about AGI happening eventually (excluding existential risks or scenarios where we end up back at the stone age)? The existence of humans, created by dumb evolution nonetheless, seems to constitute a strong evidence of physical possibility. And our ability to produce computer chips with astonishingly tiny components seems to suggest that we can actually do the physical manipulations required. So I think it’s one of those things that sounds more speculative than it actually is.
I mean, I guess it’s true that there is some doubt about AGI happening, but when you really get down to it, you can doubt anything. So I guess I’d be curious to have a better idea of what you mean by some doubt—maybe even a rough percent chance? I have a very low percent chance of AGI not happening (barring catastrophic risks as stated above) from within my model of the world, but I have a higher, but still low chance of my model being wrong.
I don’t think it is fair to act like Jason is doubting something so knockdown clear. Yes, to you and I AGI seems obviously possible and within this century seems even seems likely, but Jason said he doesn’t know much about the AI stuff. And his default view is agnosticism, not deference to the LW community. Don’t forget that not everyone has spent the past decade reading about AGI! ;)
I have read enough (e.g., Holden Karnofsky’s essays) to understand the case for it. It is a compelling case. What I’m arguing against is a line of thinking like: “AGI will be here soon and it will either kill us or solve all our problems, so there’s no point in working on curing cancer, longevity, nanotech, fusion, or progress studies.” There are just too many unknown unknowns.
On top of which I would add that machine intelligence, however it evolves, is something very different from human intelligence, just as a washing machine is different from a housekeeper and a submarine is different from a whale. Machines “think” in the way that a submarine “swims.” So there are limits on how much we can extrapolate from human intelligence.
The aspect as was arguing for as almost certain on the inside view is that we would be able to develop AGI eventually barring catastrophe. I wasn’t extending that to “AGI will be here soon”.
Regarding “AGI kill us or solve all our problems”; I think there are some possible scenarios where we end up with a totalitarian government or an oligarchy controlling AI or the AI keeps us alive for some reason (incl. s-risk scenarios) or being disempowered by AI/”going out with a whimper” as per What failure looks like. But I assign almost no weight on the internal view of AGI just not being that good. (What I mean by that, is I exclude the scenarios that are common in sci-fi where we have AGI and we still have humans doing most things and being better or as good, but not scenarios where humans do things b/c we don’t trust the AI or b/c we need “fake jobs” for the humans to feel important).
Re “we would be able to develop AGI eventually” as “almost certain”: At least up until a year ago I would have said no, definitely not certain, because a computer is very different from a brain and we don’t know yet what it can do. However, as AI advances, I put more probability on it.
What’s your doubt?
Given enough computing power, we should be able to more or less simulate a brain. What is or was your worry? Ability to parallelise? Maybe that even though it may eventually become technically possible, it’ll always be cost-prohibitive? Or maybe that small errors in the simulation would magnify over time?
Well, I’m not a materialist, so it’s not obvious to me that we can successfully simulate a brain, in the ways that matter, on purely material hardware. We just really don’t understand consciousness or how it arises at all. That to my mind is a huge unknown.
I don’t identify as a materialist either (I’m still figuring out my views here), but the question of qualia seems orthogonal to the question of capabilities. A philosophical zombie has the same capability to act in the world as someone who isn’t a zombie.
(I should add, this conversation has been useful to me as it’s helped me understand why certain things I take for granted may not be obvious to other people).
Well, I’m also not sure if p-zombies can exist!
(Although if an AI passed the Turing Test I would be more likely to think it is a p-zombie than to think that it is conscious.)
Actually, I can imagine a world where physical brains operated by interacting with some unknown realm that provided some kind of computation capability that the brain lacked itself, although as neuroscience advances, there seems less and less scope for anything like this (not that I know very much about neuroscience at all).
Re the first point, I agree. I would tentatively suggest doing something like OpenPhil’s worldview diversification, where research, labor, and capital are divided among a few distinct futures scenarios and each is optimized independently. My point in the piece is that I think the current program is a bit under-diversified.
What “current program” are you referring to exactly? (The progress studies community? The world? Or what?)
Thanks for posting this! I would lean towards saying that it would be more tractable for Progress Studies to make progress on these issues than it might appear from first glance. One major advantage that progress studies has is that it is a big tent movement. Lots of people are affected by the unaffordability of housing and would love to see it cheaper, but very few people care enough about housing policy to show up to meetings about it every month. The topic just isn’t that interesting to most people, myself included, and the conversations would probably get old fast. In contrast, Progress Studies promises to bundle enough ideas together that it has real growth potential.
Sounds reasonable. However, a better long-term strategy seems to be complete privatization. I.e. to remove the subsidies and tax breaks. I think Brian Caplan would support this strategy (see his book on the education system).
Usually the full references are in the bibliography, check there first?
There are really two questions, I think. One is whether or not tutoring is a good way forward. The other is about the classical curriculum and methods that the tutors used, but that were also used in non-tutoring contexts (Roman primary schools, Medieval universities, etc.).
I think your info is mostly about the second thing.
Re: what changed in the Renaissance and Enlightenment: Enlightenment tutors tended to do much more geography and be more on the more aggressive side about teaching Euclid. There was also probably on average some easing up on the later elements of the trivium, with someone like Locke (qua tutoring) easing up a lot and traditionalists much less so. (You can also see some easing in De Ingenuis Moribus.)
To your point, I don’t think the Renaissance works really change much about the classical approach to education. What most of your post illustrates is the extreme, multi-century stability of the Trivium approach, which was true in both tutoring and non-tutoring contexts. What’s shocking about the Enlightenment is that education doesn’t really look much different, except in the very upper edge of the research university context.
Part of the reason for the extreme stability of the ancient curriculum is that rhetoric was stable as the one and only master-skill of the elite, the power tool for gaining wealth and influence. That’s not true anymore, which is one of many reasons to be skeptical of any sort of simple applicability of the ancient approach to today.
Confidence level: 30%
Strongly agree this info is mostly about what tutoring was, but I have been struck recently by how far-reaching this idea of ‘rhetoric’ is. I have found it very easy throughout my life to think about this classic notion of rhetoric as mere speaking well and persuading. But the way it is talked about and the way the curricula of Cicero, Quintilian and Renaissance thinkers seem to think of it, as you say, as the master skill of the elite. Is it not true anymore?
It depends on how we define this master skill. What exactly was this skill, if it is broader than mere persuasion? Rhetoric has its roots in law, political, persuasion, and the courts so we might call it ‘public advocacy.’ But it concerns not so much what to advocate so much as how to advocate. So at minimum it requires a knowledge of law, persuasion, and politics.
What might rhetoric have to do with progress studies?
Today, the good public advocate needs also knowledge of technology, economics, and maybe something else, and an eye to how more good can be done. But the key factor of a modern rhetoric would be the study and practice of mechanisms and method for getting stuff done: soft networks, legal process, fundraising, think tanks, legislative interventions, startup pitches, nonprofit organization, policy drafting and implementation, management science.
Since I believe that organizational and structural barriers are currently a bigger limiting variable on progress than invention and technology, a new version of rhetoric might be called for.
One alternative view is that I am just abusing the term and rhetoric is as obsolete as wooden wheels.
Big fan of this idea! My team (Nonlinear.org) created The Nonlinear Library so people can use their podcast app (Spotify, Apple, etc) to listen to top posts from the EA Forum, Alignment Forum, and LessWrong.
If there’s enough interest, we could make a Progress Forum podcast feed as well!
Very cool! Would love a Progress Forum channel at some point
Related, an interview with David Ellison, producer of Top Gun: Maverick:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-05-30/-top-gun-maverick-producer-on-tom-cruise-netflix-and-the-future-of-movies
Posted directly via link. Would love any feedback.
One thing to keep in mind is the potential for technologies to be hacked. I think widespread self-driving cars would be amazingly convenient, but also terrifying as companies allow them to be updated over the air. Even though the chance of a hacking attack at any particular instance of time is low, given a long enough time span and enough companies it’s practically inevitable. When it comes to these kind of widescale risks, a precautionary approach seems viable, when it comes to smaller and more management risks a more proactionary approach makes sense.
This is interesting, but I really do want to see what ideas you have for mechanism.
The problem with law—that doesn’t apply to, say, Wikipedia pages—is that if you create a bad one you can do a lot of damage to a lot of people. So our mechanisms for making law are deliberately inefficient. They are the opposite of permissionless innovation.
If we want to enable anyone to make law, and have it be really fast and efficient and low-friction, it can’t be the kind of law that constrains the freedom of an entire population. It has to be something else.
You have a good point that, historically, speed has had some correlation with legislation quality. But that’s just a failure of the mechanisms.
It’s like saying that communism works better than capitalism because if you create a bad economy you can damage a lot of people, so our mechanisms for organizing the economy should be deliberately inefficient. Capitalism achieved an economy that is really fast and efficient and low-friction.
But I agree this is a moot debate until the mechanisms are discussed. I’ll do that in the future.
I’m not even sure that I would say that speed has a correlation with quality in legislation. It’s more that adding process, and especially requiring review and broad agreement, helps avoid some of the worst outcomes.
The analogy to an economy doesn’t hold: if someone creates a bad business, you can choose not to patronize it; if someone creates a bad law, you can’t choose not to follow it.
… Unless you are in a choice-of-law regime, e.g., the way a new business can choose what state to incorporate in, and is governed by the corporate law of that state; or the way a merchant ship can choose what flag to fly under.
Maybe you are going to propose that kind of system? Looking forward to future posts that get into the mechanisms!
Misha Chellam on YIMBYism broadly construed:
https://modernpower.substack.com/p/building-the-yimby-faction
Thread by me on the history of wheels and steering: https://twitter.com/jasoncrawford/status/1530698408566005760
I’ve heard good things about this book that came out recently (maybe today?)
How the World Became Rich: The Historical Origins of Economic Growth, by Mark Koyama and Jared Rubin
The particle accelerator chart is really interesting, would love to find more charts like that showing basically stacked S-curves creating exponential growth.
Right?! I was so fascinated by that. I’d never realized what so many of the Moore’s Law type charts weren’t showing until I saw this one. I think it could be a really great project to try to crowdsource more of these charts as a community. For old and new tech. It would really give us a great peak into where we’re at and how things have changed over time.
I’m not really sure how to go about it because I’m not yet well-connected/don’t have a big following, but there are surely people on the forum more plugged in than me who would know the right people who could contribute some of these charts.
Yeah, I’m sure more charts like this have already been made.
If you tweet about it or something I will amplify!
Funny, growing up in the US we’re taught a version of human history that centralizes technology. We’re taught that what makes Australopithecus special was walking and inventing stone tools, homo erectus is inventing fire, and so on. Invention is almost framed as what makes us human!
I wonder if another way to think about a piece of this problem is “how do we expand one’s scientific/creative productivity peak.” Now, don’t get me wrong, I want to live 200 years as much as anybody here. So I want us to push for that also!
But it also does seem like a majority of our most progress-inducing ideas are not just coming from a severe minority of people, but happening in a severely limited age range of those people’s lives. Mathematicians, physicists, chemists, etc. all have been known to be susceptible to this problem.
So, I could imagine a world where we extend lifespans without really expanding this productivity peak at all. And, there could be some good in that. But I’d also be quite interested if a piece of longevity focused on expanding our productivity peak. Under certain assumptions, I could see that doing just as much or more good for progress even if our life expectancy stayed fixed.
Thoughts?
Yeah, definitely. Some people suggested that part of curing aging is extending neuroplasticity, which could help you stay open and nimble-minded even when you’re older. But I suspect that closed-mindedness is a function of both social and physiological causes, and I don’t know what weight to give each.
Interesting topic! Holden Karnofsky writes here that economic growth likely cannot continue forever, but he’s talking about the next 5,000 years or so rather than the next 100. Assuming exponential growth continues, we’d eventually be squeezing billions of dollars of economic value out of every atom in the galaxy, which seems difficult, to say the least.
Yeah, I agree with those estimates. Basically if growth does continue, then in less than 10k years we hit some unimaginable utopia. At that point things might have to level off based on the laws of physics. But if we get there I don’t think anyone will complain!
My basic thesis on why IV failed is that the property rights are terribly defined in intellectual property in general, since pretty much every single case has to be adjudicated by the judicial system, which means that markets fail for standard ‘tragedy of the commons’ reasons (in the strict economic model sense, not just the commonly applied metaphor). It’s as if land rights to houses were defined with the specificity of “the 3rd house after you turn the street corner, from about where the road bends for about twenty paces”. The entire system begs for expensive lawsuits at every turn the moment disputes about borders come into play.
The only way to deal with this scenario is exactly what economic models predict when dealing with commons - you have to internalize the externalities and manage the commons under a single ownership that cares for the stewardship of the ecosystem in totality. So most IP ownership is internalized inside firms.
The only way to make liquid IP markets is to bring down the transaction costs so that, in the Coasean sense, it makes sense for IP owners to trade it at arms length. There are definitely standard contracts that could work, if the ownership boundaries were cleanly defined. The trillion dollar question is: can the ownership boundaries ever be cleanly defined? IV simply assumed the system worked, and what you needed was to increase trading volumes to bootstrap a market. They never succeeded, and I think it’s because that question still needs answering.
It’s also worth studying the one situation where IP rules do result in working markets: pharmaceutical drugs. Here, there is something that can be defined pretty clearly: a specifically enumerated molecule, sometimes with a specific endpoint. It’s also interesting that the approach usually taken is to wrap that molecule in a firm, apply VC funding to it, and IPO it!
This is a nice post. I have a similar feeling about 18th century Britain—they are just discovering that you should innovate, and do so in every possible direction.
The argument is also consequential. Suppose people avoided innovation even though it was easy and profitable.
Where does that leave progress studies/economics?
On a basic level, easy: materialism is out, and culturalism is in.
However, then you realize that material incentives and rational choice provide the intellectual scaffolding for a vast share of all research in economic history. Cultural explanations are on the rise with Jacobs, Mokyr, and McCloskey, but while they are stimulating (and important!) conjectures, they’re far from rational choice in terms of coherence and sharpness.
So on one level, the post is a fun observation about innovation, but on a deeper level, it asks us to reconceptualize vast swaths of social science!
Fascinating reframing! I hadn’t thought about it like that at all…
I’m glad Hannes should notice this deeper implication, as it is certainly one thing I had intended when I originally wrote this piece! When I give seminars to economists, convincing them that innovation might be outside of one’s choice-set is one of the first and most difficult things I try to do.
Important idea, easy to lose sight of—thanks for the reminder!
The classic old guard problem is compelling, but seems rather hypothetical. I wonder if there have been case studies of fields that have moved fast/slow due to the longevity (or lack thereof) of their practitioners? For example, if a scientific field has been led by someone who lived into their 90s or 100s, did that field move more slowly? Can we analyze that?
There was a study that looked at what happens in a subfield when a dominant researcher dies in the middle of their career. Matt Clancy covers it here: Conservatism in Science
Hey there! I’m a startup founder and software engineer who is also one of the folks from the anthropology community who was initially skeptical of Progress Studies, so I can speak to their concerns—which, to your point, largely came across as snide grumbling amongst academics. Unfortunately, as is often the case with tight-knit communities, their real concerns were understood implicitly and therefore not deemed necessary to communicate openly.
tl;dr, there’s a pattern of (some) SV tech types only respecting two areas of knowledge: STEM, and economics (but only some economics—i.e. not political economy, economic history, labour economics...), and thinking all other areas of knowledge can be dismissed, ignored, and rebuilt from “first principles” by STEM folks.
To a group of people already concerned about this trend who spent their careers studying how different forms of knowledge emerge and are transmitted across communities, they read the initial PS piece and (wrongly) assumed this was about to happen again. And as people who, for the most part, genuinely share many of the impulses and desires of PS folks, they were dismayed at the thought that all their painstaking research and advocacy for better innovation systems and policy would not only continue to be ignored, but dismissed outright.
There’s a broad understanding that PS is meant to be an applied discipline—but 90% of the concern was that it would be an applied discipline that would only draw on the same set of economic theories that have already motivated innovation policy for the past few decades, and nothing would change as a result.
Thankfully, the community is thoughtful enough to not let that happen.
This is fun to think about. Two thoughts popped up:
1. I wonder if it also changes researchers’ appetite for risk knowing they may have time to recover in the future if their riskier projects fail.
2. Perhaps there’s also a mechanism forcing science to be more robust/credible. If my career is now 100 years long rather than 30 years, there may be a longer-term penalty for engaging in shoddy science. (This probably sits under your long-term thinking bracket).
I think both points are very important. I also think they reduce the old guard risk. ,
Consider an example where a researcher is powerful in a paradigm that either is wrong or stagnant.
Currently, cognitive decline and a short horizon make it unattractive admit failure and start from scratch. Instead, you fight a rearguard action until retirement.
With longevity and 100 years to go, you would realize that defending the old paradigm is a losing battle, and you also have lots of time and cognitive ability to get back in learning mode and come back stronger.
Yes, incredibly interesting.
Also, good seeing you here—I’m a big fan of your work!
Loved this! Possibly my favorite innovation hack is just assuming innovation-related distributions are power laws.
Starting prior: assume it’s a power law.
Secondary prior: assume it’s quadratic or pareto-ish.
I have always liked this post a lot. Similarly, I have always liked Matt Clancy’s post on this who takes a slightly different approach but I think complements it well https://mattsclancy.substack.com/p/the-idea-of-being-an-entrepreneur?s=r#details
According to CEA guidelines, “effective altruism” isn’t capitalized. I’ll change it back if no one minds.
I’ve found this interview fun and enlightening to listen to. Coming from the EA movement, I was initially skeptical of the progress studies movement because I thought it was pretty much only about human prosperity or economic growth. But it’s more general: it’s the belief that for any problem we face, we can use our minds to come up with solutions, and that we need to preserve and improve the institutions that drive innovation so that we can solve these problems. As you said in the interview, advancements in safety (whether in AI, biotechnology, etc.) are a form of progress.
One concern I’ve had is that progress so far has only benefited humans, and come at the expense of other sentient beings and the natural environment. As the human population has grown, so has the population of farmed animals, the vast majority of which live in cruel conditions. (And we’re just beginning to address wild animal suffering.) But animal suffering on factory farms is another problem that humanity can solve, whether it be through new technologies (e.g. meat and dairy substitutes) or new institutions and laws to protect farmed animals. And moral progress is part of progress too. 🙂
P.S. It would be nice if we could embed Our World In Data charts, as on the EA Forum 🙂📈
Thanks!
It would be interesting to have a discussion about animal welfare on this forum. Might be worth a short post to frame the issue and invite people to share thoughts in the comments.
Re charts, we are using the same forum platform as EA and LessWrong, so we should have all the same features? Let me know if there’s something you’re seeing in the EA Forum editor that’s not here.
Very interesting.
The way I imagine this working is that you write these principles into the Constitution of Interland. (There should also be an initial list of reference countries, with a process to add or remove from the list.)
Then, you write your best-effort attempt at a starting legal code conforming to those principles. If you get it wrong, or if things change in other countries, then anyone can challenge the law in the Interland court system, campaigning to get something approved or prohibited on the grounds of how the reference countries do it.
In other words, the most important thing is to have an error-correction mechanism (cf. David Deutsch).
I really like this. I really like Solarpunk personally but I think one of its core problems is how tied to degrowth it can be. This plus it’s aversions to markets make it a mixed bag. I love the idea of creating an aesthetic and idea for the future around us conquering our surroundings and even improving on them.
There are portions of Solarpunk I think we should seek to incorporate. I often get the sense from Solarpunk types that they have a vision of the future that is collaborative and kind. I think ideally these elements are also incorporated into Terrapunk. There’s a certain warmth and peace to Solarpunk imagery I often see and I think we can both embrace this as well as the more dynamic imagery. While we should certainly celebrate the geniuses that push humanity forward we should also envision a more collaborative, fair society. How are the average people empowered in this society to do more than they could otherwise? How are their lives improved? At it’s best this should be what Solarpunk shows us though like you mentioned it rarely shows people going about their lives.
Capitalism and innovation have been the pivotal things that have increased the standard of living for people for the past several hundred years and it will be interesting to depict and imagine how that will continue. It will also be interesting to imagine what comes afterwards. In a post scarcity world I can only imagine the economic systems will look very different from our own.
Gena, just saw you published this. I enjoyed it, would be worth cross-posting the full/final text!
Thanks, Jason! Would you suggest cross-posting as a reply to this thread or as a new post?
It should be a new post, so people can link to it directly. Eventually it could get nominated to be a “curated” post or go in our library of readings, etc.
Do more with more indeed! To that end, I really like Aurelia Institute’s vision for human habits in LEO and beyond.
I really like this framing of research-y ideas. Matches what I was thinking in a conversation with an angel investor on the difficulties of investing in frontier-tech startups.
It seems like the key for startup funding is finding profitable intermediate goals. Optimizable projects within the bigger, non-global-critical-path effort.
This is basically what SpaceX did to me. Building a colony on mars is a clear goal but has no global critical path. However “drastically lower cost of payload to orbit” does (albeit with some “fatness” in it for sure). And more obviously monitizable despite the capital/time requirements. Add to that the creativity of exploiting other monetizable businesses that are enabled in pursuit of the goal (Starlink) and it makes further financial sense.
Thinking about it like this reminds me of the means-ends heuristic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means–ends_analysis You may not know what to optimize for the final goal but there can be profitable intermediate ones that get you closer to the final goal.
Of course, there are some areas where there still won’t be any intermediate + profitable goals. These are the real research-y ideas.
I enjoyed this interview. I found it particularly interesting to hear how you were originally skeptical of the stagnation view and only came around to it later.
Thanks! I elaborated on that here: “Technological stagnation: Why I came around”
This resonates with me a lot—thanks, Jack. I particularly appreciate the idea that we could not only “stop climate change” but even improve the climate.
A while ago I articulated what I call the Principle of Control: “Anything that matters to human life should be under our control.” (thread)
The climate matters to us; therefore, the climate should be under our control. In the future, we should be able to control the outdoor climate just as easily as, today, we control the indoor climate. We should have a thermostat for the Earth and set the temperature to whatever we want. We should be able to control the composition of the atmosphere with the same precision that, today, we control the composition of metal alloys in a foundry.
Good review and good rec—just bought the book and am enjoying it so far. Thanks!
Re: other examples—true interchangeable parts, which was a major manufacturing advance, required a lot of advances in precision manufacturing. It had been attempted as early as the early 1700s, and was made much more feasible/cost effective by the invention of high-speed tool steel in the late 1800s, which made it possible to machine heat-treated parts. Interchangeable parts was, among other things, one of the technologies that made Ford’s assembly line possible (iirc, Ford was the very first car manufacturer to use interchangeable parts.) But as late as the 1940s, it was still expensive to get true interchangeability, and wasn’t always used.
I think you’re right about “dark matter,” and precision machining is exactly the first example of it that leapt to mind. E.g., Watt was having a hard time getting his improved steam engine to work reliably, because without a very good fit between the piston and cylinder, steam pressure would be lost. The problem was solved by Wilkinson, who had developed a special technique for boring canons that could be applied to cylinders for engines. This story is told toward the beginning of Simon Winchester’s book The Perfectionists (sold in the UK under the title Exactly, I think).
I gave a related example about the non-obvious importance of precision manufacturing in my essay “Why did we wait so long for the threshing machine?”
Another one that comes to mind is chemical synthesis. Think about how much in the chemical and pharmaceutical industries relies on our ability to synthesize chemicals. And yet, this is rarely discussed even in books on the history of technology. Every once in a while I marvel that we can just synthesize molecules. How do we do that? And how did we learn to do that?!
Or, consider the semiconductor industry. To even invent, say, the transistor, we needed the ability to make n-type and p-type silicon. I haven’t dug into it yet, but it must have required sophisticated materials processes to perform the appropriate doping of boron and phosphorus, which are present in the silicon in minute quantities.
One more: When I looked into the history of smallpox vaccines, I found that there was a lot of iteration after the initial vaccine to improve safety, storability, and transportability:
Think about all of the underlying technologies that are required to invent and scale up something like freeze drying. Progress is highly interconnected; it compounds.
Eli Dourado:
https://twitter.com/elidourado/status/1526642524231634945
For some reason, the media really doesn’t want to spread the message “we need to build more housing”. One theory is that many of the older journalists own property and don’t want more construction in their neighborhoods. This doesn’t seem like a very good explanation as then we might predict the younger journalists who don’t own property would push to build more.
A second theory is that the media is currently pushing the narrative of rich oppressing the poor and this explanation doesn’t fit with this narrative. This seems more likely. Many journalists are struggling financially due to the shift to online, so even if the housing market were fixed it likely wouldn’t fix their issues. Hence they are incentivised to push for a more extensive restructuring of society.
“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up people to collect wood and don’t assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea”—Antoine de Saint Exupéry
I know it might be a heretical question on this forum, but do we really need to accelerate AI? Isn’t there some point at which we can say “fast enough”? Like if we could press a button a make AGI appear today, would be wise to press that button? Are we truly ready for the consequences of what would arguably be the most important moment in our entire history? Aren’t there enough other things in society that we could fix instead?
Really excited about the potential of this forum!
Question: when I strong upvote the vote count only ticks up by one. Is this intentional? I’m a big fan of casting two votes at a time for stellar contributions!
The magnitude of a strong upvote is a function of the user’s total karma and a multiplier range, see the code here.
Ahh, didn’t know it was linked to karma. Thanks!
Hmm, I think it is supposed to tick up by 2. Are you sure you’re getting a strong vote in? You have to click and hold for a while until it takes.
I’ve looked mostly at progress from an energy lens, and I think the upper bound constraint for progress is relevant there too.
Coal was restricted largely to space heating until the steam engine, which itself was restricted to stationary applications until the steam locomotive. Oil’s first beachhead was kerosene lamps, decades before internal combustion engines were commercialized. Electricity needed the build out of vast, centralized grids and large coal and hydro power stations. I wrote more about this in this section of a recent long read.
I’m also very interested in the question of how to best accelerate the “dark matter” ecosystem and fast track the next AlexNet in whatever domain it happens to be. I too would be interested to see examples of domains that require minimal infrastructure and dark matter.
Silicon Valley was originally highly suspicious of the business establishment with its focus on disrupting it, although this seems to have softened somewhat as it has formed its own establishment.
As an example, look at the 1984 Macintosh Commercial.
I suppose TED talks are the closest thing that exists to this. It seems that the popularity of TED seems to have peaked a while ago.
A few thoughts:
I really like the idea of an idea machine. I think more people within EA should consider EA as a system.
I’m surprised to hear “It’s time to build” is different Progress Studies as they seem pretty aligned. Then again, I’ve only really seen that essay by itself. Is there a broader community around it and where can I find out about it?
“We seem to understand that entrepreneurship operates in a free market of ideas, so I’m not sure where the idea comes from that there is, or could be, One True Approach to philanthropy”—Agreed. In particular, I think that a lot of efforts to improve the world through politics shouldn’t occur through EA. I also appreciate that the rationality community is somewhat distinct from EA as that allows it to focus more on epistemics.
Own Cotton-Barratt’s talk Prospecting for Gold has been pretty influential in Effective Altruism in shifting more effort towards lots of small experiments with high-upside and limited downside (but that said a lot of money is still just redirected to the Against Malaria Foundation and other top charities)
Regarding expressive value, I’d suggest Eliezer’s essay—Purchase Fuzzies and Utilions Separately. In order to be an EA you don’t have to choose all your donations or actions according to EA principles. I think of it like being an artist—in order to be an artist you have to produce at least some art, but you can do other things with your time as well.
“EA will continue to grow, but it will never become the dominant narrative because it’s so morally opinionated”—There’s some intentionality here. Lots of people don’t want EA to grow too fast as they are worried that communities that grow too fast can fail to pass on their culture. In contrast, this is probably an accurate statement for Giving What We Can, which is aims to grow as fast as it can, but which is rigorous enough that I expect it will only ever find a niche audience.
“Why aren’t there more effective altruisms?”—Perhaps it’s because being part of EA is appealing enough[1] that many people or groups that could have formed their own movement end up becoming part of EA (take for example AI Safety, although from what I heard at EAG London, AI Safety specific movement building is starting to take off).
One interesting question to ask is why is EA an idea engine and not LW. Again, part of this is some people within LW don’t want it to become more of a movement because they are worried about this distorting its epistemics.
I think it is possible to turn ideas into action without major funders, but unfortunately, EA had limited success here.
Access to talent and money
Re “It’s Time to Build”; I was also a bit surprised to see that here as a separate item, for the same reason. But, I was also surprised to see Schmidt Futures as a separate item—it’s a bit hard for me to understand how a single entity can be an idea machine unto itself? Nadia is coming at these things at a very granular level, and I find that interesting in itself.
Fascinating article. I’m surprised that I had never heard of the Bonfire of the Vanities and how it disrupted the Renaissance. I wonder how history would have turned out if it hadn’t been disrupted.
I also found it interesting how those short disruptions were sufficient to end those society’s golden ages, particularly since I would be tempted to argue that our own society has recently been suffering through such a disruption.
For the flip side of the coin, I would like to nominate the invention of the nuclear bomb as one of the most tragic moments in history.
Thanks! The nuclear bombings were obviously very tragic, though if we take the view that a progress-positive culture is the main criterion for tragicness, the development of the bomb may have been a pretty good period, since it led to nuclear energy and other innovations.
Assuming the Great Stagnation hypothesis is true, whatever happened in the 1970s to slow down science could be said to be our 3rd most tragic moment. But it looks like our civilization is self-aware enough to avoid a full return to stasis, so fortunately we’re not quite there yet.
I agree that we’re probably ahead at this point, but, I don’t know, seems like a pretty risky bet to take that it’ll remain net-positive over the long-term. Like, sure it’s nice nuclear power is an option, even if we don’t make much use of it, and that we have isotopes for medical use, but that doesn’t really feel worth having a nuclear apocalypse hanging over our heads?
Einstein said: ““I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.” And from what I’ve heard there’s truth in that. There’s a pretty good chance at least some humans will survive any nuclear conflict, but I’d be quite surprised if we didn’t fall way down the tech tree. So this kind of situation seems like the exact opposite of what we want if we’re in favour of progress.
This is essentially the debate on whether a specific technology should have been developed. Many possible answers: it was likely inevitable anyway that at least one country would develop the bomb; suppressing atomic research to avoid it would have led to a poorer world; etc.
In any case we have somehow managed not to have a nuclear war, so even though there’s a potential of tragicness, the bomb’s invention itself hasn’t been so bad in real terms (except for the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, of course).
I’d suggest separating the question of whether a certain technology should have been developed from whether it was possible. For example, let’s suppose someone is dying of cancer and we have no way of saving them.
Do we want to save them? Yes
Can we save them? No
I would be very disappointed if people ended up concluding from our inability to save them that we didn’t actually want to save them anyway.
Similarly for nuclear weapons, the table may very well be:
Do we want to avoid them: Yes
Can we avoid them: No
Which is what I would suggest. Or if suppressing this research would have led to a poorer world it may be:
Do we want to avoid them: No
Can we avoid them: No
But I think it’s best to avoid conflating these two questions. Even if we think there’s nothing we can do, if we conflate that with “We wouldn’t want to stop or slow its development anyway” then we would likely refuse an opportunity to make a difference even if we were handed it on a silver platter.
I suppose it would be possible to argue that atomic research led to a richer world, but would question how big this impact really has been? Is it more than a couple of percent? And if not, is this really worth having nuclear apocalypse hanging over our heads? One potentially useful thought experiment: how much would someone have to pay you to convince you to play a game of Russian roulette[1]?
I only realised after writing this, that the existence of nukes is literally a game of Russian Roulette.
Sure, I didn’t mean to provide a full treatment of the “should it have been invented?” question. I just wanted to point out that there are many possible lines of reasoning:
It was impossible to suppress research on the bomb at all, e.g. someone in some private lab would eventually have invented it
It was possible to suppress research in one country, but impossible to coordinate all countries (especially in wartime); eventually some country would invent the bomb and gain a massive military and economic advantage over the others
It was possible to suppress research globally, but doing so would have dire moral consequences (e.g. require an authoritarian world government)
It was possible to suppress research globally in morally acceptable ways, but doing so would have prevented other useful innovations that were worth the risk (e.g. nuclear energy)
It was possible to suppress research and the specific outcomes of nuclear research weren’t worth it, but it would have created a progress-negative culture that would have destroyed much of humanity’s future potential
We could have suppressed research without dire consequences and simply failed to do so
Inventing the nuclear bomb was Good, Actually
These are not necessarily exhaustive. To me the most compelling is number 2, although nuclear non-proliferation since the cold war has shown that we can coordinate to a large extent, so maybe 6 is true or would have been if there had been no WWII.
I expect that 2 is true as well and so it made sense to invent the bomb before another less responsible country, but if we could have waved a wand prevented the invention of nukes then I think it would have been worthwhile even if it cost us nuclear energy or slowed global progress.
I mean, a lot of people oppose progress for pretty silly and not really thought out reasons, but as far as reasons go, “We invented/almost invented something that could potentially have killed everyone on earth” seems like not a bad reason to slow things down for a bit and reflect.
I think there’s likely to be a bit more tension between EA of today and Progress Studies vs. EA of the past.
The EA of the past was much more focused on global development (progress = good), whilst EA is currently undergoing a hard pivot towards long-termism, most notably bio-risk and ai-risk (progress = bad). Actually, the way I’d frame it is more about the importance of ensuring differential progress rather than progress in general. And I don’t know how optimistic I am about Progress Studies heading that direction because thinking about progress itself is hard enough and differential progress would be even harder.
I’m quite involved in EA, so I’m probably biased towards thinking EA will be more influential than it may very well turn out to be. EA has built up a lot of infrastructure, including 80,000 Hours, EA Globals and student groups at top universities; and a huge number of new projects launched this year. Progress Studies may be able to replicate that, but it remains to be seen.
I’ve done something similar where I’ve asked for backstop funding for a project in case I wasn’t able to get it funded elsewhere.
Consider Cesar Hidalgo’s work in this analysis: Why Information Grows and his new paper Knowledge is non-fungible.
Thanks Gale! In a nutshell, what are the most important takeaways from those pieces?
Good piece.
One of the main issues I have with economic approaches to knowledge production like Romer’s is that they approach Knowledge as a singular entity that produces an aggregate economic output, as opposed to a set of n knowledges that each have their own output curves. In practice (and in the technological forecasting lit), there’s a recognition of this fact in the modelling of new technologies as overlapping S-curves:
The S-curve approach recognizes that there is a point where the ROI for continued investment in a particular technology tapers off. So this means that we don’t run out of Ideas, we just overinvest in exploitation of existing ideas until the cost-to-ROI ratio becomes ridiculous. Unfortunately, the structure of many of our management approaches and institutions are built on extraction and exploitation of singular ideas, and we are Very Bad at recognizing when it’s necessary to pivot from exploit to explore.
Even worse, this is not only true for the structure of our industrial-commercial research, but for our basic research apparatus as well. Grants are provided on the basis of previous positive results, as opposed to exploration of net-new areas—resulting in overexploitation of existing ideas and incentivized research stagnation.
In practice, you can think of it like this comic...
except instead of a circle, our knowledge distribution looks like this
Thanks. I generally agree with all these points, but do they change any of the conclusions? These complexities aren’t represented in the models because, well, they would make the models more complex, and it’s not clear we need them. But if it made a crucial difference, then I’m sure this would get worked into the models. (It’s actually not uncommon to see models that break out different variables for each invention or product, it’s just that those details don’t end up being important for high-level summaries like this.)
As with any metric, it comes down to what you’re looking to diagnose—and whether averages across the total system are a useful measure for determining overall health. If someone had a single atrophied leg and really buff arms, the average would tell you they have above-average muscle strength, but that’s obviously not the whole story.
Same goes for innovation: if idea production is booming in a single area and dead everywhere else, it might look like the net knowledge production ecosystem is healthy when it is not. And that’s the problem here, especially when you factor in that new idea production is accelerated by cross-pollination between fields. By taking the average, we miss out on determining which areas of knowledge production need nurturing, which are ripe for cross-pollination, and which are at risk of being tapped out in the near future. And so any diagnostic metric we hope to create to more effectively manage knowledge ecosystems has to be able to take this into account.
I agree that if you want to understand where there might be problems/opportunities, you can’t just look at averages.
The most exciting prospect here, imo, is building capacity to identify underresearched and underinvested foundational knowledge areas, filling those gaps, and then building scaffolding between them so they can cross-pollinate. And doing this recursively, so we can accelerate the pace of knowledge production and translation.
Also strongly recommend the adjacent possible work if you haven’t seen it yet.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2017/01/13/154580/mathematical-model-reveals-the-patterns-of-how-innovations-arise/#:~:text=The%20adjacent%20possible%20is%20all,the%20space%20of%20unexplored%20possibilities.
Thinking out loud here...
Would want to keep any agenda specific enough to drive outcomes, but not too specific as to turn people off from petty disagreements. Balance it at some middle level of abstraction, and make it very straightforward/logical that the agenda leads to progress. What are the different areas an agenda could cover?
Specific technologies—as you mentioned, something like “progress is good. energy allows more progress. cheaper energy allows more energy. nuclear is cheaper energy. nuclear is good ⇒ promote nuclear”
Media—definitive stance on pro-progress media (books, videos, podcasts, memes, movies, etc.) and what makes something “pro-progress”
Regulation—hypotheses with lots of data on specific regulations that, if removed or revisited, would increase progress
“Would want to keep any agenda specific enough to drive outcomes, but not too specific as to turn people off from petty disagreements.”
I think unfortunately, this is the equivalent of eating your cake and having it too. Progress studies, if it’s actionable, largely is going to impact into the political world (because we want to do xyz things, which government has some presence in, to accelerate the pace of progress), so disagreement is going to exist.
For instance, you mention regulations that “if removed or revisited” would increase progress. Two areas that come to mind for me are housing construction and nuclear regulation—but these are contentious, political topics. If we actually want to achieve real-world things here, I think specificity is unfortunately required.
Do you think that you could significantly improve the prospects of nuclear power if you were commissioner of the NRC? or would you be too constrained by politics and other rules?
If you think it would be impactful to have a progress-minded person running the NRC, then convincing the current commissioner or getting the right person appointed seems like an important and even tractable agenda item.
A single commissioner would be too constrained I think. It’s not just the NRC holding back nuclear: it’s also state-level restrictions, the Yucca Mountain problem, environmental review, community opposition, etc.
Kwasi Kwarteng, UK Business & Energy Secretary and MP for Spelthorne:
https://twitter.com/KwasiKwarteng/status/1524993089861033986
I think TFP is not really ideas. It is deployment of production methods. New ideas give us new production methods, but they don’t really help us deploy them. For deployment, we need a lot of effort (1% inspiration, 99% perspiration) and also high-quality institutions.
How do you explain the TFP drop in Venezuela? Did they suddenly lose a bunch of ideas? No, their institutions deteriorated and their deployed production methods declined in quality.
Same in the US. The creation of the NRC reduced the quality of the production methods we could deploy. NEPA too. Lots of other things one could cite. Simply letting us use the ideas we already have as effectively as possible would increase TFP significantly.
So explaining your three data points:
Institutions really improved pretty significantly over the last 1000 years (Magna Carta, reductions in violence), leading to superexponential growth.
At a very crude level, the basic framework of economic institutions have been mostly static over your second period, leading to plain exponential growth. (NB: to make this fit, I would start counting after the end of slavery, and still would not wish to deny the importance of improvements in social institutions leading to greater racial and gender equality).
Since 1970, our legal and economic institutions have declined in quality somewhat, leading to slower TFP growth. Mystery solved.
Another way to put it is: are ideas getting harder to use? We know that if we put the magic rocks together, they get hot and can be used to generate steam and electricity. But if we’re not allowed to make effective use of that information, it screws us almost as much as if we didn’t have it in the first place.
I think that story fits, too. And Romer/Jones would seem to be sympathetic as well. From the “New Kaldor Facts” paper mentioned above (emphasis added):
I am curious to hear from people who are skeptical of the crucial role of institutions, or who ignore it, and I’m curious what evidence would resolve the disagreement.
Not to be a double contrarian, but I am also skeptical of a lot of econ research on institutions. Ha!
That would make a good topic for a separate post/debate somewhere! In any case, the models discussed here don’t have terms for institutions, so clearly there is something important they’re not yet capturing…
Steve Hsu:
https://twitter.com/hsu_steve/status/1524857225734504454
Hypothesis Fund launches today:
Also: https://twitter.com/Hypothesisfund/status/1524434163465547776
I was once asked, if I could take a time machine and make one change to the course of history, what would I do? And my immediate response was: I would go back to ancient Greece and try to stop the Peloponnesian Wars.
Basically the exact same thing I said a few days ago! Possibly the thing to do would have been to convince the Athenians to listen to Alcibiades just before the battle of Aegospotami, when Athens lost most of its fleet.
One thing I’d like to see is a discussion of the potential for measurement error. For example, software is notably deflationary yet we don’t see that in the statistics due to how we count. (We still don’t really know how to value the contribution of software to GDP.) Bloom (2020) may just be measuring the wrong outputs for the current type of progress. For example, if publications or patents are a weaker signal for ideas than in the past, the methodology breaks down.
I agree in general about the measurement challenge. However, one strength of Bloom (2020) is that they look at a variety of areas using different metrics: Moore’s law, agricultural productivity, etc. (They don’t really look at patents, in part because it’s hard to know what patents mean/represent.) In any case, it’s not just GDP. The fact that there are similar patterns across different metrics is evidence that there’s something real going on.
Holden Karnofsky and Scott Alexander go further, albeit with less solid quantitative support, and extend the pattern to art and general human accomplishment. E.g., here’s Scott (this comes right after the block quote above):
Good point, though I don’t find looking at a selection of areas as too convincing. I could just as easily choose areas with consistent exponential growth that I would guess don’t look like this, like solar panels or genome sequencing. Even if things were getting better on average you would expect some things to get less efficient over time too. (for example, think about that inflation components chart people share all the time)
One last thing: we would probably want to look at output and not inputs. Robert Gordon’s sort-of nemesis, Chad Syverson, has done work on how some big super-trends take a long time to develop and even have an impact on the world, like steam rail and electricity. Might be worth looking into as a counterpoint to the Gordon thesis.
Well, the point of a lot of this is to look at outputs as a function of inputs. That is what Bloom 2020 is looking at. You need some measure of inputs (they basically use R&D spending, deflated by the wage rate) and some measure of output (GDP, transistor density, crop yields, etc.) and then you figure out the quantitative relationship.
If solar panels or genome sequencing don’t look like this, that would be very interesting! My guess would be that they do.
Revision history:
2022-05-12: Initial draft published
I’ve followed your work on Construction Physics, Brian, and I’ve enjoyed it immensely and learned a ton!
Some thoughts:
One of the recurring points you bring up is that construction is limited in cost savings due to the transportation costs—building materials are generally heavy and have low value-to-weight ratios, so centralized manufacturing doesn’t help nearly as much as it does in other industries. That being said, do you see a solution space where the brick-making machine (including kiln if necessary) can itself be brought to the jobsite, with the material being sourced from super-local dirt/clay? I’m picturing almost a portable manufacturing pipeline, where a digging machine feeds dirt into a mixer, which deposits material into a brick mold which is then fired. The resulting bricks are assembled via robots.
Do you think an alternative to mortar could be found? Perhaps a solid resin of some sort that is laid between bricks during placement, and then heated into a liquid and cooled back solid to bond with the bricks?
Do you think the market for automated bricklaying is going to disappear as 3D printing buildings becomes more common/economical?
Looking forward to your continued work!
Thanks!
Re: portable brick machine, I think automation would have to advance a lot before something like this ended up being cost effective (and the resulting automation could probably do a lot of other, more interesting things than just “assemble bricks”)
Re: mortar, folks are already doing this (this is what fastbrick robotics uses, basically)
Re: 3D printing, I don’t think this is especially likely, mostly because people want brick specifically because of how it looks—it’s already a sort of cost-inefficient system that people choose for the aesthetics. Adding another system to the mix doesn’t seem like it would change this calculus, even in the event it becomes super efficient (which seems unlikely to me).
The first time I heard about IPAT my reaction was, “well, population, affluence and technology are all good things, so… if impact is the product of them, it seems pretty great?” (Tongue in cheek.)
More seriously, I think humanism is the fundamental issue here. Are we trying to save the Earth for humans or from them?
If you haven’t read it already, ‘Where’s my Flying Car’ is basically a direct answer to the question you pose here. Hall has scientific, technological, political, and cultural analyses of several possibly impactful technologies like flying cars, nuclear energy, nanotech, etc.
I know it but it’s still pretty specific to the technologies and products the author is interested in. I’m more interested in a general question of: there are a number of technologies where the implementation barriers seem nontechnical, and it seems like it’s getting worse. Curious why.
He uses specific case studies but the book definitely synthesizes general principles which can explain the nontechnical barriers in many technologies. Things like ‘failures of nerve’ and imagination and ‘the Machiavelli effect’ are illustrated with cases but are applicable to a wide range of technologies. Jason’s summary is great but I really think you would enjoy the book. It’s fun to read, not too long, and I think it is the most comprehensive answer to your question out there right now.
My summary/review: https://rootsofprogress.org/where-is-my-flying-car
Chad Jones, “Time Series Tests of Endogenous Growth Models” (1995):
The premise isn’t exactly right here. There are venture backed companies that primarily develop and license IP, like Qualcomm, ARM, and RAMBUS. Plus, like, the entire biopharma industry. Sometimes companies make spinoffs that just hold IP for joint ventures with other companies. So this does happen; there just needs to be infrastructure to use the IP, like people to manage the licensing process and a corporation to actually hold the IP, since it always needs to be assigned to someone (IP cannot legally exist in the ether). Investors do also sometimes take royalties in exchange for funding, which is like taking a stake in a patent.
What is true is that this isn’t quite institutionalized in the sense that there aren’t patent funds that just invest in patents. The closest is companies that acquire patents, like Intellectual Ventures. Note that in all of these instances there is a lot of diversification; you probably will attract investment in an ongoing R&D effort that monetizes through patents more so than just a patent itself, even in the above examples.
I think the reason for this is that the risk/reward profile isn’t there. Inventions have the same risk regardless of monetization method, but you have less control in the outcome if you just get an interest in a patent since so much of the commercial success has to do with other things which require people. Plus your margins will be higher but your revenue will be lower.
The exclusivity rights conferred by intellectual property are exceptionally important in areas where the innovator’s CAPEX requirements are high, but the cost to copycats is low—like biopharma, energy, or even mining. The creation of a temporary monopoly engineers sufficient market value to make initial investment of high-risk capital on the order of hundreds of millions (if not billions) of dollars worthwhile and palatable (e.g. see https://dukespace.lib.duke.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/10161/6707/Record5.pdf; https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1019&context=facpubs).
The rules were never supposed to apply to extremely low CAPEX industries like software, however—hence why “abstract ideas” were excluded from intellectual property law and are often negotiated and renegotiated in the courts as incumbent monopolies and patent trolls try to use regulatory capture to maintain their status.
I definitely agree that a bigger difference between original investment costs and copying costs makes patents more beneficial, but all of the criticisms I pointed out still apply. The Pharma industry spends billions on patent courts and lobbying. This has to be subtracted from the benefits that they provide, in addition to all the welfare losses from super expensive name-brand drugs.
What do you think about using prizes or direct subsidies for high CAPEX projects instead of IP?
In a more meta sense, I wonder if it is possible to have patents only for high CAPEX industries. It may be that the lobbying forces will inevitably push to expand the reach of patents, and one cannot separate the benefits of high CAPEX patents from the costs of low CAPEX ones.
There are a few issues to parse here --
Patents are a necessary part of motivation to commercialize in high-CAPEX industries
Pharma companies take advantage of regulatory capture and abuse the IP system to eke out longer exclusivity periods than are typically allowed by law (e.g. making negligible changes and repatenting a drug); this has been a net drain on innovation
No cap, benchmark, or standard on biotech pricing has allowed companies to slowly ramp up pricing far beyond what is considered reasonable (e.g. the gradual ramp-up to a Million Dollar Pill)
Prizes and direct subsidies already exist for high-CAPEX projects and are also a crucial part of the system as it exists today. Almost all biopharma research starts out as state-funded work out of universities or NIH, until it reaches a point where it’s ready for trials and gets spun out into a business. The trials themselves are then often further subsidized. There’s a lot of work and money that has to go into making biotech viable just because of how little we understand about fundamental biology.
Patents are much more useful in high-CAPEX industries, but I wouldn’t call them necessary. There have been expensive capital investments without patent protection, even if they are not common.
Agree here.
’Reasonable” does a lot of work here. Economists usually define reasonable as price = marginal cost and the whole goal here is to raise price high above that level. But the point is well taken that there is more consternation over pharma pricing than is justified.
This is sort of an orthogonal point but I think the reliance of pharma on patents is an example of the “break your leg and give you a crutch” strategy that the government often takes. A huge part of the CAPEX that goes into pharma development is going through FDA approval. So if that process is not going to change, patents are essential for further pharma development. But in some lassiez-faire counterfactuals I think we could get more pharma development even without IP protection.
I think that prizes could replace the incentives of patents without most of the negative second order effects that I pointed out. Theoretically you could just match the monopoly profit with a subsidy, get the efficient quantity produced, and there are some mechanisms for dispersing the cash which avoid the rent dissipation.
Virginia Postrel:
https://twitter.com/vpostrel/status/1524442490052374529
Elon Musk:
https://twitter.com/sokane1/status/1524089525424824320
For folks interested in this topic, I found “Air Conditioning America” a good complement to this book. It covers a narrower period of time (from 1900 to 1960), and it’s more academic, but it goes into quite a bit more depth than “Cool” does.
Great to see a dedicated forum for this. I always enjoyed posts related to progress studies on the EA Forum and I’m looking forward to the content!
Small side-note: You use a really nice font the the forum; works better than the serif one at the EA Forum. Which one is it?
It’s really refreshing to finally see a website that’s not all blue and white 😅
According to the CSS, it’s “Mukta”? David Smehlik is our designer, he did a great job!
It’s called getting a job.
The returns to patents follows a power law distribution (PLD), just as VC-backed companies do, but it is even more extreme. The exponent for VC-backed startups is close to but just under 2*, it seems, while Nordhaus writes that the exponent for the return to patents is between 1.3 and 1.7**.
I don’t have an answer to your question! But it has always struck me that venture capital returns should cluster just below the PLD alpha of 2. This value is important because when you calculate the mean of the PLD, it goes to infinity as alpha goes to 2. (This means that if venture capital follows a PLD, and if the alpha is less than 2, and if there is no tail-off, that the mean return on a company would approach infinity. Each single return is finite, of course, but the more companies you invest in, the higher the mean return you will get.)
There is also some evidence (Neumann, op cit) that VCs can choose their alpha. That early-stage investors choose a slightly lower alpha than later-stage investors and that private equity investors choose an alpha greater than 2.
Alpha, besides determining the average of the PLD, also determines its variance. The lower the alpha, the higher the variance. The variance, in turn, is a useful measure of investment risk.
So, a hunch: as you lower the alpha of the PLD you choose to invest in, you increase both risk and mean return. But when the alpha goes below 2, mean return goes to infinity. There’s no point in going any lower.
Of course, a portfolio of patents should approach infinity faster than a portfolio of startups (meaning you would need fewer patents in the portfolio to expect a desired return than you would need startups) but this is misleading: the lower alpha PLD has a longer tail, offset by a bigger base...any single pick from that distribution is likely to be worse, while that one single homerun is likely to be much better. So, in theory, you should expect a better return with a smaller portfolio than you would with startups, if you are optimizing to a specific overall return (say, 3x) then you would have to have a larger portfolio. (That is, you have fewer hits, though the hits are bigger.)
You can see this if you look at press releases of university tech-transfer offices. They often brag about that one patent that has been 90% of their return over their history.
If you are managing someone else’s money, you want to maximize your return, but you are also motivated to minimize your minimum return, so you can keep your job. In this case, you would need to build a really, really big portfolio of patents, much larger than the portfolio of startups you would need. You would also need more time for the patents to come to fruition. It’s not a stretch to see why, under these conditions, patents would primarily be funded by entities investing their own money (universities, large corporates, individuals, etc.)
* Neumann, Power Laws in Venture, https://reactionwheel.net/2015/06/power-laws-in-venture.html
** Several papers: Nordhaus, W.D., (1989). “Comment on Zvi Griliches’ ‘Patents: Recent Trends and Puzzles’”, Brookings Papers on Economic Activity: Microeconomics, pp.320-325; Scherer, F.M., Harhoff, D. & Kukies, J., “Uncertainty and the size distribution of rewards from innovation”, Journal of Evolutionary Economics 10, 175-200 (2000); Scherer, F.M., “The Size Distribution of Profits from Innovation”, Annales d’Economie et de Statistique, No. 49⁄50, (Jan-Jun 1998), pp. 496-516.
I think you are definitely on to something here. It’s definitely interesting how many different camps point to the mid seventies as the period where things started to go wrong. The term often used to describe the political ideology emerging in this period and coming to fruit fully with the election of Reagan would be “neoliberalism”. Often characterized as a distrust of centralized control, a laissez faire approach to governing, a dismantling of welfare and labor protections, and a defunding of things like research initiatives, It definitely seems like it was a turning point in our political mindset. The term is usually used to refer to both Republican leaders like Reagan and Bush and the Democrats of the era including Clinton and potentially even Obama. It also is closely tied to economic thinkers such as F. A. Hayek and Milton Friedman.
That said the term has a lot of baggage attached to it to the point where it may be less helpful than I would like it to be. I say this mostly due to how the term has been colored by the Marxists that often have used it. Obviously these Marxists have their own narrative drum to beat and this means finding unbiased resources on the era using this term might be difficult. I think validating that this era is indeed characterized by the traits often ascribed to neoliberalism is a worthwhile endeavor.
In recent years a new group of liberals have adopted the term for their movement and have said specifically that one thing that separates them from the original neoliberals is that the modern version is much more comfortable with technocracy (I can dig up the source for this if anyone is interested). So even the people who have adopted the term neoliberal seem to suggest that this era is characterized by a distrust of technocracy which seems like a solid sign for your overall theory.
“The modern version is much more comfortable with technocracy”—I wasn’t aware of that. I would love to see a source on this.
I’m still trying to find a good source on this in text format. One good resource would be this recent podcast from the neoliberal project on what they believe.
VC works because making a startup can be extremely profitable. Making patents used to be quite profitable, but is that still the case? I can’t recall seeing someone make lots of money from their patent in recent years. (The exception is the pharmaceutical industry, where patents seem to de facto work differently than the rest of the economy. This industry does have financial mechanisms for incubating patentable innovations, which is fortunate because developing the patented products is ridiculously expensive.) When I hear about patents being used these days, it’s mostly as passive deterrence weapons in lawfare between giant corporations, or bad-faith patent trolls, and not as the basis of profitable production like you’d hear about in earlier times (again, except for pharmaceuticals).
So my guess is that something in the legal system changed to make patents not lucrative for most people, and the apparent lack of funding for patents is a rational response to that.
It’s probably worth noting that this could also just be because this pipeline doesn’t seem to exist. Like I know Peter Thiel comments that today a letter from Einstein would get lost in the mailroom of the white house.
Today, I could probably email HP the specs and proof of concept of a brand new kind of printer that printed an order of magnitude cheaper, was way easier to connect to, etc. And there’s little chance they’d see it or respond. I think discounting the possibility that this just doesn’t happen often because corporate bureaucracies aren’t set up to handle it probably shouldn’t be taken off the table.
And if the argument is more along the lines of “why have we not heard of a single person because surely it would have happened once?” The answer could likely be that once in a blue moon someone like IBM or NASA does take an idea from an absolute rando who they don’t hire to implement it, but then they NDA that rando and we don’t hear about him.
epistemic confidence: low—just an idea
As I’ve thought about these shifts, one idea that keeps coming up for me is the idea of “the enemy / crisis”—there was a very clear enemy during technocrats birth (World Wars, Economic Crisis). The death happened essentially as the first generation without an “enemy / crisis” as their foundational story—and, as they weren’t driven by fear or the purpose of defeating the enemy, they are less likely to be willing to give power or listen to authority. Even Vietnam was a war that lacked a threat or enemy that resonated with the generation. If it was a real war with the Soviet Union (versus a proxy war), I imagine it would have looked quite different.
We can see this dynamic play out at a smaller scale after 9/11 -- support for the president surged and the government was given significantly more leeway than before.
In short, an idea is that technocracy was possible because multiple generations were raised with constant threats and enemies and thus had a larger willingness to cede power and stand behind a leader or elite. And, in the face of great victory, the leaders looked to build on the successes that brought victory—technological superiority—but were unable to keep focus & power without an enemy or crisis to crystalize a largely singular vision and purpose.
Hey Gena! Thanks for sharing.
Here’s a thought for ya—it seems to me like you’re trying to make an inspirational kick in the pants for people to take action—fight entropy—and go through a handful of challenges that prevent people from acting (I picked out “hoplessness” and “safer to do nothing”). I think another challenge that might be good to address from a psych perspective is “Why me? Or “I don’t know the answer”—which is partially addressed in your piece with the idea that building is iterative and process driven (and you certainly don’t have all the answers on day one).
I’d also try to identify a single story for each of those, rather than having lots of examples that are touched on, but not really built out (Agriculture! Education! Ukraine! Healthcare! -- take the same space and build out one of those per idea).
Thank you for the excellent feedback, Rebecca!!
Would love your or others’ thoughts on the revised draft linked above, and also copied below:
Death is the default
Subtitle: Why building is our safest way forward
In the early stages of starting a company, founders stare in the face of one of the stark realities of human existence: the fact that death is the default. Their product or service did not exist in the world before they started building it, and it will quickly fizzle back out of existence if they step away from it. It’s like those horrible, murderous villains in Dr. Who, the “Weeping Angles,” who stand still as long as you’re watching them, but rapidly close in on you the moment you so much as blink.
Or so it often feels, anyway. In fact, there are no murderous villains waiting to close in on you in the startup case; there are just the blind, indifferent forces of inertia and entropy. Most startups don’t die because someone is actively trying to kill them, but simply because the founders stop trying to keep them alive.
This state of affairs is by no means unique to founders. It is a literal law of nature that every living being must grapple with. As Steven Pinker reminds us in Enlightenment Now, the “first keystone in understanding the human condition is the concept of entropy”: the inexorable fact, captured by the Second Law of Thermodynamics, that left to its own devices, a system always moves toward stillness, randomness, and disorder. “Life and happiness depend,” he continues, “on an infinitesimal sliver of orderly arrangements of matter amid the astronomical number of possibilities… Far more of the arrangements of matter found on Earth are of no worldly use to us, so when things change without a human agent directing the change, they are likely to change for the worse.”
How the Enlightenment has numbed us to entropy
This is a difficult truth to keep hold of in our post-Enlightenment world. Thanks to the intrepid founders, scientists, and other innovators who have fought on the frontlines of the human fight against death and entropy for the past several centuries, many of us have been born into a world where living in relative health and comfort into our old age is the path of least resistance.
The accumulated fruits of human agency and creative problem-solving are so ubiquitous today—in the form of agriculture and modern medicine, electricity and air conditioning, Uber and Amazon, Google and iPhones, widespread literacy and constitutional government, bank loans and credit cards, Zoom and Facebook—that we tend to assume them as the natural default, or worse, blame them for any remaining problems they haven’t been able to solve.
Living with chronic or unexplained illness is enough of an anomaly today that a seemingly unremarkable Tweet reminding us “how big of a blessing it is to not have any health problems” drew 1.4 million likes overnight, with most of the replies expressing appreciation that someone put words to such a rarely stated sentiment. As we start to emerge from a global pandemic only to witness a bloody, unjust war in Ukraine, we feel we are living through what a recent Atlantic article called “the dreadful days”—forgetting, perhaps, that plagues and wars used to be the rule, not the exception, of human existence.
We build or we die
None of this is to say we shouldn’t regard pandemics or unjust wars as the disasters that they are, nor that we shouldn’t fight them with everything we’ve got. On the contrary, remembering that “death is the default” should mobilize us to fight them with everything we’ve got—recognizing that the one thing we’ve got, in the fight against entropy, inertia, and death, is our power of agency.
The power of agency is, in its essence, the power to build: to direct our intelligence toward the work of understanding the world and adapting it to our needs. It’s how we impose a purposeful order on nature’s chaos.
This is the power exemplified by the vaccine developers and other medical innovators who, quoting Pinker again (this time from Rationality), “identified the cause [of the COVID-19 virus] within days, sequenced its genome within weeks, and administered vaccines within a year, keeping its death toll to a fraction of those of historic pandemics.”
It’s the power that’s been so magnificently on display among the Ukrainians fighting for their home and freedom today.
It’s also the power that’s on display in all the more local, mundane ways we apply our intelligence to the work of understanding and shaping our world every day: whenever we consciously select and prepare a meal for ourselves; whenever we arrange our living space in a thoughtful way; whenever we act upon our considered judgment, reached in consultation with trusted experts, about what will best serve the medical or educational or nutritional needs of our children; whenever we put in a solid day’s work at a job that helps us afford the time and materials required for these former.
And it’s the power we forfeit when we squander our mental and physical energy on lamenting how hopelessly broken the world is, or how hopelessly broken we are, because we’ve made wrong turns or haven’t found solutions to all of our problems yet.
An optimistic outlook
Counterintuitively, internalizing the perspective that “death is the default” leads to a more fundamentally optimistic and forgiving outlook on ourselves and our fellow human beings.
Whenever we find ourselves raging against the fact that there is still pain and suffering and hunger and sickness and injustice in the world, the underlying assumption is that these problems wouldn’t exist but for some human folly or malice; if only we’d stop being so greedy or so racist or so materialistic, we could all live in peace and harmony and never run out of food or shelter or high-quality healthcare again.
But if we actually take seriously the creative challenge of effecting any one of these outcomes, we quickly come to see that the failure to do so is not fundamentally a problem of malice or ill will; it’s a problem of not knowing how to effect them in the first place.
What we often take for granted is just how much human ingenuity, iterative experimentation, and messy trial-and-error has gone into generating whatever solutions we now take as “given.”
The way we’ve come this far toward reducing world hunger was not predominantly by curbing our voracious appetites; it was by developing the science and practice of agriculture. The way we’ve come this far in reducing the death toll of global pandemics was not predominantly by sheltering in place or social distancing; it was by developing the science and practice of immunology. And the way we’ve come this far in reducing the global impact of discrimination and violence is not predominantly by desisting from hatred; it was by devising complex social, political, and legal institutions that allow for peaceful cooperation among large and diverse groups of people.
As every founder and independent problem-solver knows, the work of building new solutions to heretofore-unsolved problems is messy, fallible, continuously iterative work. Sometimes we’re not even clear on the nature of the problem until we’ve already gone a ways toward solving it. When it comes to normative fields like education or psychology, simply agreeing on the problem—that is, on the ends we are trying to effect—is itself a Herculean challenge of philosophy and social science.
Meanwhile even a crappy education or middling mental health treatment is better, and sometimes literally more life-saving, than none; and the default, through most of human history, was none.
Entropy isn’t evil; it just is
Understanding that death, disorder, and chaos are the natural default can be paradoxically liberating. Many problems become more tractable, or at least less frustrating, if we approach them less as casualties of human folly and more as challenges of creative engineering.
For instance, it spares us from feeling aggrieved by the toxic, dysfunctional relationships in our lives, once we realize that the fundamental problem is rarely one of malicious intent; it’s that no one in the relationship has figured out how to make it work. This is why practical, skills-based communication technologies like Marshall Rosenberg’s Nonviolent Communication (NVC) or the Interpersonal Effectiveness skills from Marsha Linehan’s Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) are so game-changing for those who implement them: not because people never have ill intentions (this is something on which I disagree with both Linehan and Rosenberg), but because an effective system for building “win-win” relationships makes it far less tempting to resort to ill-intentioned “win-lose” tactics. Whatever their flaws, methodologies like NVC and DBT-IE offer ingeniously creative solutions to the complex problem of how to get everyone’s needs met in a relationship. I myself was too quick to dismiss such methodologies as “obvious” or “gimmicky” until after I’d repeatedly failed to solve the same problems on my own and found myself returning to them for guidance. If you’re not getting what you want from your relationships, you would do well to scour these methodologies for solutions you might not have tried yet.
The same applies in spades to dysfunctional institutions: whenever we bemoan the ineptitude of corporations or hospitals or government bureaucracies as though it were an injustice willfully inflicted upon us, we need to remember that the default is not well-functioning institutions; the default is no institutions at all. If you’re angry about the long hold when you call your airline to rebook a flight: do you know how you’d solve the problem of staffing customer service lines if you were the airline? Or if you’re angry at the wealthy people of the world for not using their billions to “end world hunger”: do you know how you’d go about solving this problem if you were a multibillionaire? For that matter, do you know how you would even determine whether this was the best cause to prioritize, given that this remains a topic of heated debate even among the most thoughtful and committed humanitarians?
Dysfunction, ineptitude, hunger, and death are not a personal affront or a divine punishment for wrongdoing; they are just nature doing its thing. Figuring out how not to die—whether as an individual or as a family or as an institution or as a culture—is our thing; it is a creative challenge afforded to us by the miracle of having escaped entropy for this long, and by the grace of all the fellow human builders who’ve gotten us this far.
Letting go of status quo bias: why building is the safer choice
By letting this perspective sink in, we can shift from blaming the problems of the world on human depravity to marveling at all the progress we’ve already made toward solving them—and taking ownership of the difficult, fallible, energy-intensive work of trying to move the needle a bit further.
Whether and how we take up this work is always a choice. It can be harder or easier depending on our circumstances, our natural endowments, and the size of our ambition, but it is never the default. Evolution furnished us with a unique capacity to regulate our own energy expenditure, including even our choice of whether and toward what ends we expend it. This means we have a limitless potential for sustaining and bettering our lives—and an equally limitless potential for squandering or destroying them.
Choosing to build doesn’t guarantee we’ll build the things we actually need, or that we’ll build them well enough or fast enough to stave off the forces of entropy; but refusing to build guarantees that we will fail to do so. In this light, the work of building is our best—nay, ultimately our only—defense against the entropic forces that threaten our survival and thriving.
And yet most of us act as if the opposite were true: as if the “safer” choice, all else being equal, is to maintain the status quo and to stick with what we’ve got, rather than bet on the possibilities of building something new.
While there’s debate about why so many people exhibit these “status quo” and “risk aversion” biases, one readily available observation is that they are manifest in our cultural messaging. The whole notion of Maslow’s hierarchy, as it’s commonly understood and invoked today, suggests we can’t afford the “luxury” of exercising our creative and intellectual powers when our basic needs are threatened; as if exercising these powers weren’t precisely what has allowed us to face down such threats throughout human history. We think of professional endeavors as “risky” in almost direct proportion to the extent that they involve building something new (a la working at a startup) versus maintaining the status quo (as people often assume, rightly or wrongly, of the “corporate” world).
The partial truth in these assumptions is that building something new is socially risky; insofar as you need to bring other people on board in order to build what you want to build (as, in our division of labor society, you almost certainly do), you’ll need to push through their status quo and risk aversion biases in addition to whatever other entropic forces you’re up against. This often means you need to fight harder for customers or gigs or investors or public recognition than someone who’s doing the more conventional thing.
But how big a risk is this, actually, when pitted against the risk of continued inaction and stagnation? To answer this question with any accuracy, we need to shed our complacent post-Enlightenment assumption that human health, happiness, freedom, employment, education, and flourishing are automatic, to-be-expected defaults, and recognize them instead for the hard-won human achievements that they are.
Even sans global pandemics and unjust wars, these achievements require ongoing maintenance, which, in a dynamic world subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, means ongoing innovation. The 20th century should have taught us just how easily we can sign away our own freedoms and undermine our own progress as a civilization when we don’t understand or appreciate these truths.
The psychological upshot: to stagnate is human, to build is divine
Taking this historical and philosophical view of the human condition provides an invaluable lens for our own individual decision-making. For instance, it implies that embracing a bias toward action as the overall less risky alternative to inaction, all else being equal. Once we fully internalize the perspective that “progress is not the default,” we see that the absolute riskiest route is often to do nothing at all: to keep languishing at a “safe” job instead of making the scary leap to something more fulfilling and financially rewarding in the long term; or to stay single and lonely or continue in a relationship we have outgrown, instead of putting yourself back out there.
Finally, by appreciating the often far deadlier risks that humanity’s builders have taken on the path to securing our present-day comfort and prosperity, we can also learn to recognize the work that any worthwhile achievement entails—including the mistakes and rejections, the false starts, the struggle, and even the pain. In a universe where quiet, passive death is the default, the so-called “tradeoff” between security and ambition is illusory. We can do no better to secure our health and comfort and that of future generations than by seeking that sublime height of human experience: the full application of our intelligence to difficult problems that matter.
I agree with distinctions between applied policy advocacy—with significant intellectual diversity of opinion—and conceptual advocacy, which is axiomatic to the field—the idea that progress is “real, desirable and possible”.
I wan to posit an addition flavor of study and applied advocacy, one that is human, rather than progress focused. It asks how we can help people (especially the early/late majority) adapt to increasing rates of progress and change and avoid the worst fates of progress losers. This rather sits squarely between applied and conceptual, likely employing conceptual tools like ‘widespread cultural agreement’ as well as specific policy analysis and advocacy.
A single example where this kind of understanding could have played a large role can be seen with the CDC’s COVID vaccination timelines that were frequently influenced by their opinions on public perception of their decisions, which seemed to lack scientific basis.
Beyond that, this advocacy has the potential to moderate many of the “anti-humanist” arguments put forth by both Adam & Jason.
So this is interesting because I have no clue if it exists. But it did!! This was the one and only thing the small R&D departments of large companies did in the US in the very early 1900s.
Tons and tons of home inventors/amateurs would submit patents/specs to them to look over. The department would assess their scientific/technical validity and think about if they could profitably use the invention.
If they could, they’d come to an agreement with the inventor who sent it in. And it was efficient because there was no expectation for the inventor to also start the business that built on their patent. The company that already had the scale and ability to do that just bought your idea and then you could go on to the next one.
This equilibrium started to dissipate some time around like 1920-ish very roughly as more and more companies built internal R&D teams that did actual research/contracted with university professors to do it.
I talk more about some of this here: https://freaktakes.substack.com/p/is-americas-applied-and-basic-research?s=w
But in general, I completely agree with you that this is a criminal market oversight if it doesn’t exist. And, more than that, it would just be cool and fun.
Interesting to think what changed in that time period. Ideas prior to 1900 or so would have been primarily mechanical, and the patent system was designed for this. Even though all patents represent ideas, ideas prior to the electrical age were about mechanical objects that could, perhaps, be instantiated in one best way. Ideas in the electrical age could probably be instantiated in many ways, making patents harder to enforce. And now, in the information age, the idea itself can be articulated in many ways, making patents somewhat useless for information-based products except as post-hoc bludgeons.
I don’t think ideas in the information age are any harder to articulate. I do think that it’s harder to identify patent theft, though. You don’t get to read the source code of a tech company, but if you buy a mechanical product, you can just open it up to see if they’re using your patent.
Overall, the answer is no.
The early mechanisation was not of cotton, but of silk and wool. Cotton only looks so important in retrospect. You see huge silk-twisting factories in Piedmont in the 17thC already, with the methods then stolen and brought to the Netherlands in the 1680s, and to England by the 1710s.
It’s also worth bearing in mind that textile mechanisation takes many forms. It’s not just about spinning, but about carding, weaving, and more—e.g. stocking knitting was mechanised in the 1590s.
Now, looking at cotton specifically, textile historian John Styles points out that early spinning machines required cotton varieties with a longer staple, as characterised by the New World varieties (initially that from the Caribbean and Brazil, before the US South became a major source after 1800). Old World varieties from the Levant were of a shorter staple. What this means, however, is that cotton spinning mechanisation happened first with the more expensive cotton variety, not the cheaper one. Indeed, the 1760s-70s in general were when raw cotton prices were especially high.
References, and for further reading:
John Styles, ‘Re-Fashioning Industrial Revolution. Fibres, Fashion and Technical Innovation in British Cotton Textiles, 1600-1780’, in La Moda Come Motore Economico: Innovazione Di Processo e Prodotto, Nuove Strategie Commerciali, Comportamento Dei Consumatori / Fashion as an Economic Engine: Process and Product Innovation, Commercial Strategies, Consumer Behavior, ed. Giampiero Nigro, 1st ed. (Florence: Firenze University Press, 2022), 45–71.
John Styles, ‘Fashion, Textiles and the Origins of Industrial Revolution’, East Asian Journal of British History 5 (31 March 2016): 161–90.
John Styles, ‘The Rise and Fall of the Spinning Jenny: Domestic Mechanisation in Eighteenth-Century Cotton Spinning’, Textile History 0, no. 0 (15 January 2021): 1–42.
John Styles, ‘Fibres, Fashion and Marketing: Textile Innovation in Early Modern Europe’, in Cotton in Context: Manufacturing, Marketing, and Consuming Textiles in the German-Speaking World (1500-1900), ed. Kim Siebenhüner, John Jordan, and Gabi Schopf (Wien, Köln und Weimar: Böhlau Verlag, 2019), 35–60.
Good point about optimism. However, the examples used in the article show an underlying use of this mental mindset and dogma: stay productive and efficient (more than others do); use this highly effective mental mindset to generate more wealth, which in turn will trigger sustained economic growth. Well, the only criticism - and I do my best to keep it as constructive as possible—lies precisely in the paradoxical pessimism that a green, conscientious and socially aware mind will feel after reading the article. Do we really intend to use optimism as a tool to exploit our planet even more? Or to increase economic inequality by playing zero-sum games?
In a nutshell, my humble opinion is that we should use optimism in order to think of “progress” in a slightly different way. And if you think I’m naive, well, at least I’m being an optimist.
Very interesting that the initial impetus for air conditioning was production requirements, not human comfort. Similar to how the initial motivation for railroads (and really, most transportation innovations) was cargo, not passenger transport.
Nice! The bit about selling product in clear containers is interesting. There was a similar transition when plastics, I think particularly cellophane, were first introduced. Customers could see the product they were buying—particularly with food—and be more assured of its quality, without exposing the product to air (and germs). So many little things we take for granted.
Good question. I haven’t read anything indicating this, and of course the famous breakthrough in cotton productivity, Whitney’s cotton gin, was invented in 1793, well after textile mechanization was underway in Britain. So my guess is no. In fact, I’ve always sort of assumed that it was the other way around: efficiencies in later stages of the process created demand for higher productivity in earlier stages. Flying shuttle (1733) doubles the productivity of weavers, which creates more demand for thread; spinning machines (1760s) increase the productivity of thread-making, which creates more demand for unspun cotton; cotton gin (again, 1793) provides the cotton. But all that is based on a fairly superficial knowledge of the relevant history. (We should get Anton to weigh in.)
Another thought: cotton is not the only thread. If cotton had not been made cheap, might textile mechanization have taken off based on linen or wool?
Thanks Laura—I’ve heard great things about this talk; I need to check it out!
Biography is a god example of a genre where you can study something and advocate for it simultaneously, and in good biography often they are the same thing. Advocating doesn’t have to mean apologising in this context. Simply explaining something properly and with the aim of increasing appreciation for all its elements so it becomes higher status for all its good and bad point is the best form of advocacy biography offers, with acceptance of fault or limitations. I think this is or should be an important part of progress studies. The best advocacy is inspirational to others!
I still expect EA to be more influential in 2030. I’d be interested in making a bet on this.
How would you define the terms of the bet?
Haven’t thought about this thoroughly but number of EAF/PSF users/views springs to mind as a crude proxy.
Hmm, they have a big head start though. Comparing absolute numbers would be unfair to us; comparing growth rates would be unfair to them!
Well, maybe as a measure of “influence” absolute numbers would still make sense
One thing to keep in mind regarding measuring influence by numbers: Because EA started earlier, many EAs will be further into executing their plans. As an example, someone who is a student in 2020 at a top university, might be a senior manager by 2030.
Very interesting.
Re movie franchises and cinematic universes, I see it as a branding issue analogous to food/beverage chains. If I see a Starbucks, I know what to expect, I know whether or not it’s the kind of thing I like, and I can count on a certain level of quality. A boutique coffee shop might be better than Starbucks, but I’m taking a chance.
Similarly, if I go to see a Marvel movie, I know what to expect, etc. Whereas if I see some other movie, even if I know it’s in the action/adventure or superhero genre, I’m taking more of a chance.
The only thing that I wonder is why it took the movie studios so long to figure out that when they have a winner, they should keep milking it. There are some examples in the past, such as the James Bond series, but it seems much more of a known strategy now. (Like, after the first wildly successful Star Wars trilogy, it took 15+ years to make another one. And I don’t think there were any movies outside the main story line until Disney took over.)
Not that this contradicts any of your analysis; in fact I think it dovetails with what you’ve said here.
Agree that franchises are fundamentally about branding!
But I think it’s not just that it took movie studios a long time to learn that branding was effective. I think the strategy only became very effective in the new environment where there were lots of choices for consumers. One way to think of it is to assume that consumers rely on two pieces of information when making a judgment about which movie they will most enjoy: word-of-mouth and similarity to other movies they’ve seen and enjoyed.
When the number of movies is small, enough people see every movie that word-of-mouth is a very reliable guide to the quality of a movie. Here, I’m thinking word-of-mouth is from people you already know well, and so you can judge their taste. Like in a small town, everyone knows the artisanal coffee shop, and so Starbucks isn’t desirable. But when the number of movies is really large, word-of-mouth is not very reliable. You never know more than one or two people who have seen any movie, and even fewer who have seen more than one that you’re choosing between.
In the latter environment, you start to give more weight to the similarity of a movie to other movies you’ve seen. And that creates a feedback loop, because if more people start choosing to go to movies based on their similarity to other movies, then you can only get accurate word-of-mouth information about those kinds of movies (franchises). In the second environment, it starts to pay more to make movies that are similar to existing movies, even if they not be as good as the best original movies. In the second equilibrium, the problem is that the really good original movies can’t be identified, and so they languish at the box office.
Stuart, I’m not seeing how it is a conflict per se to prescribe actions that would generate progress and also study what has worked to generate progress.
In the example you give, certain advocates of charter or public schools skew research on what creates valuable opportunities for children when they give advice. But the problem is that their true objective function isn’t aligned with their stated objective function. They claim their goal is to advance opportunities for children, but what they really want is to promote or impede charter schools. So they skew their advice in service of their real motive while couching it in terms of their stated motive.
This could happen in progress studies as well. Suppose a progress studier’s true commitment is not really to progress, but rather to libertarianism or leftism. Then they might put forward policy solutions in the language of progress studies that actually advance their other political commitment at the expense of progress. We should be wary of this.
Yet to fully separate the functions of research and advocacy will never work. It may be fine if there are at least a few people working in ivory towers who are solely studying what works to produce progress. But things immediately get muddier when you introduce any advocacy at all. Suppose I tried to be a pure advocate, and that my true goal is to advocate for policies that advance progress. Where am I supposed to find these policies? Probably I will need to read a lot of stuff on what works to drive progress. Even if there is a well-functioning pure academic progress studies community, I would at minimum need to read a lot of the papers and evaluate the literature, essentially doing my own meta-analysis. That’s basically research. Given the current state of the field, advocates probably have to go even deeper than just this minimum level of research.
I think I could accept some softer claims.
1. It would be good if there were at least a few people who as pure academics study what works to produce social progress. These people could serve as a check on advocates misconstruing research to advance some other agenda.
2. We should be attentive to the fact that as a movement becomes politically successful people might use the language of that movement to push for other goals. This matches the charter schools example, using the language of opportunities for children to drive an ideological victory for or against charter schools.
Curious to know if you or anyone thinks I’m missing anything important here.
Those are all fair points, and I might have phrased things a little too strongly in the original post.
I do think the education example is interesting, though, because both “sides” (if you will) are convinced that they are the only ones who truly care about improving children’s education. The problem is that they’re confusing means and ends.
To me, whether it’s progress studies or education or whatever, there needs to be a significant number of academically-minded folks who agree with the end of improving progress or improving education, but who are resolutely agnostic about the means of doing that, and who are willing to follow the data wherever it leads (including being willing to admit when something doesn’t work, or backfires, or has other unintended consequences or tradeoffs).
Hey Ben! I loved this. Particularly the anecdotes about Boulton and the early and late life of Edison Electric.
Since reading the Edison biography, something I’ve been thinking about is whether or not someone could start a modern-day R&D lab the way Edison did. Like I understand that it would be atypical, but I feel like someone with a particular set of skills and the ability to execute (whose mind also moves a mile a minute the way weird minds do) should be able to.
There are certain technical problems, that if solved, are either worth a ton of money as their own company or just licensing the IP to existing players in the field.
As a concrete example: What if one started an R&D lab dedicated to making superforecasting as effective as possible. You’re working on trying to figure out what you can and can’t predict, how to make your best predictors even better, and how to communicate these predictions in as clear a way as a consultant would communicate in a deck. At that point, your services could be worth huge amounts to companies trying to make projections and hedge funds trying to make trades. Or you could start a hedge fund yourself.
Why do little applied research shops like that, with clear commercial applications in a medium amount of time once some expertise is built up, not exist? Are people just not doing it or is there a structural reason? Any ideas?
There are of course tons and tons of R&D labs working on things with medium-term commercial applications, and the question is why so few of them get results as good as Edison’s. More recent examples of hyperproductive labs like Xerox PARC, DARPA, and early Google suggest that this is still entirely possible, but it also seems difficult, fragile, and unlikely to maintain extreme productivity once the founder’s attention is elsewhere. I haven’t looked into these labs very deeply, but my understanding is that they all depended on a very specific culture which has never been made fully explicit and generally can’t be replicated despite a number of attempts. This is usually a clue that someone with a rare combination of skills is engineering the social structure and troubleshooting idiosyncratic problems as they arise. (Compare to the stream of new practices in e.g. education that start off showing extreme potential but regress to the mean as soon as they scale past the visionary founder’s personal management capacity.)
I’d be skeptical of the superforecasting lab specifically, because while these labs full of tinkerers have a very good track record for producing physical tech, offhand I can’t think of a single good social tech that was developed in a lab built for that purpose. Probably better to have a few institutions try making internal prediction markets to guide real decisions, and see how it works. (IIRC Hanson has tried to get this to happen?)
Also, for a contrast—that is, what not to do—see James Pethokoukis’s “The Smithsonian’s dreary ‘Futures’ exhibition is stuck in the eco-pessimist 1970s”:
This is a great contrast — I’m hoping to make it out to see this in person. I’m curious to learn what happened here that caused the Smithsonian to take such a limited view.
Thanks Cameron! So excited about this project and your vision for it.
I also liked Anton Howes’s idea for a new Fair:
https://antonhowes.substack.com/p/age-of-invention-the-industry-of
Thanks for resurfacing Anton’s piece as well. He did a great job of highlighting some of the specifics. It’s super important that the Fair promote a sense of agency—that visitors of all types can see someone like them building the future. As Anton writes “Visitors would naturally meet the inventors and scientists and engineers who developed it all, too.”
Nice post. Yes, Fabian’s paper is brilliant. IIRC, in a separate paper, he uses the same shock to study peer effects and finds no impact, which seems completely robust but simultaneously bizarre.
I’m supposed to be studying for my final qualifying exams but talk of physical capital is too enticing…
A couple of related papers you may find interesting:
Baruffaldi and Gaesller have a brilliant working paper looking at the more recent impacts of physical capital destruction. Like Fabian, they also have a great source of exogeneity—the accidental destruction of physical capital from natural disasters. The take-home is that specialised capital is particularly harmful in the long run (side note, the paper’s sheer data collection is remarkable!).
Helmers and Overman (2016) also demonstrate the large impact of physical capital using the runner-up location of the Diamond Light Source synchrotron in the UK.
I’m in the early stages of working on some ideas around the importance of physical capital. It would be good to chat at some point.
This first paper, by B&G, is such a fascinating piece of data collection work. You’re absolutely right. Do you have any rough guesses on how much of the issue is building a course of research on niche capital itself vs. the kind of person who does that kind of thing. I’m sure they both have an effect. I ask because I would be not shocked if the hypothesis, “People usually only pursue a course of research that requires specialized equipment if they are extremely dedicated to that problem over all others/that is an area of clear comparative advantage to them and they don’t believe they can contribute as much to other areas.”
That might be mere conjecture though and I’m not one to lend too much credibility to personal hunches without evidence. Do you think there’s any work that can help us think through that question? Even if tangentially. As much as it can feel like it sometimes, a paper does not exist for everything.
Interesting paper and great writeup.
One thing I wonder about: how much of the “brains” setback was due to it being from an evil, self-imposed policy? That is, the bombing was a sort of random, external factor. But the expulsion of the Jews was a conscious policy from the regime. If the scientists had randomly died of disease or something, instead of being deliberately kicked out, would the effect have been similar?
Hmmmmm this is particularly interesting because, if the setback was really a recruiting problem, it breaks the problem down in a way I hadn’t thought about. Because when most people deal with this question they treat it as kind of a “are there currently good people there? Yes or no?” But your question implies a different formulation.
Not just “are there good people at the department right now?” But also, “how likely is that department to treat good people well/retain them if they do good work?”
This is quite interesting. Because if we could start to find some rough answers to how important the expectations piece is, that could possibly shed some light on how to:
Recruit top scientists to departments/orgs/research areas that are not currently top-tier but looking to build up towards the future
And the more impactful, less zero-sum topic of maybe there are ways to use whatever we learn to get more talented potential researchers into academic departments in the first place.
I’m sure we all know people who gave up possible top-flight academic careers for the private sector not just because of the paycheck, but also because they didn’t really have any faith in the academic institutions/ecosystem as a whole treating them well.
Would love to know anyone’s thoughts or if there are interesting papers to start running down this rabbit hole on!
“If the scientists had randomly died of disease or something, instead of being deliberately kicked out, would the effect have been similar?”
This paper by Pierre, Josh, and Wang does exactly that. They look at the sudden death of ‘superstar academics’ and find a noticeable decline in their collaborators productivity.
When I was considering that line of reasoning that you just made, I wasn’t sure how seriously to take the change because it was unclear to me if that was a negative spillover that affected their capacity to do or work just that the field moved on in the absence of a superstar.
Because in Pierre’s (god I love him, he’s a godsend) Does Science Advance One Funeral at a Time? there seems to be an interesting dynamic. Upon an untimely death, collaborators’ pubs went down and newcomers’ pubs went up. In that case, an alternative model of the situation could be “the old famous group of researchers had a certain capture/influence over publishing in the area that was broken by the untimely death of one of them.”
In essence, I wasn’t sure what to think because, as you pointed out, their direct collaborators were hurt. But it seems like the fields where a superstar dies also get an injection of new ideas. So I withheld judgment on what I thought might be happening because it felt up in the air.
But I’m open to hearing more evidence! I like being swayed. It’s fun.
Yeah, that’s certainly true, the deaths have interesting dynamics. My advisor (Christian Fons-Rosen) is a co-author on that paper with Pierre and Josh. I’m definitely interested in exploring the area more.
If one wanted to start flirting with how to disentangle the lost collaborator effect from the lost capture effect, do you think there are any decent ways to do that?
I imagine whatever it is will be imperfect. But maybe there’s some pseudo-randomness to certain positions of status/power coming to an end that are independent from one’s research capacity.
Like maybe you’re only allowed to be the chair of x society or editor of y journal for a fixed time period and then you’re forced to step down. Maybe something like that could be a codifiable measure of some level of capture of a field.
Maybe?
I think it’s a great question. Two papers come to mind about capture that are somewhat related. These are not directly related but get at the capture part of research to some extent:
This paper by Carrell/Figlio/Lusher captures the clubbyness in economics.
I’m really fond of this paper by Rubin and Rubin because the empirical strategy is smart.
“Like maybe you’re only allowed to be the chair of x society or editor of y journal for a fixed time period and then you’re forced to step down. Maybe something like that could be a codifiable measure of some level of capture of a field.”
I know some people who are working on something kind of like this. Happy to explore this further when we chat.
Thanks! I’ll read them this weekend! Have a good weekend!
New blog prize for “positive visions of the world 50 years from now”: https://twitter.com/effective_ideas/status/1521191531406761984
Eren Bali:
https://twitter.com/erenbali/status/1521136589451059200
New podcast from Stripe Press:
https://twitter.com/stripepress/status/1520055702655492098
First thought: seems like the kind of thing you could use for vaccine development and manufacturing in a pandemic? (How does this relate to what the Gates Foundation did… didn’t they fund manufacturing facilities for several vaccines, even in advance of knowing which one would work?)
Another potential application: carbon capture systems?
Carbon capture seems like a pretty good potential use, yeah. I hadn’t thought of vaccine development, though I wonder if traditional finance may be better at that, as you’d marshal more resources promising people the upside too. Good question on the Gates Foundation, I’d be interested to know too.
Effective progress studies and actions would be well thought of as Startups. Presenting concrete and distinct visions of the future that are actually desirable to ‘normies’ is what will drive growth and interest in these fields. The visions and implications of our abstractions should be regularly means-tested against users (i.e. the general population) and if they don’t want what we’re pitching, you should be open toward pivoting in the direction of their expressed consensuses. At the very least this will help ensure that you’re grappling in a workspace that is actually meaningful to average people, which will then increase your ability to go play in more removed fields of abstraction. Adventuring into abstract landscapes is fun and meaningful, but you can’t patent an abstract concept and you can’t get Tom from down the block to hand you a tenner for a verbal description of a hypersphere.
From Dima Shamoun:
For context, see “Why has nuclear power been a flop?” and my interview with Dima on her podcast Flies in the Ointment.
Voltaire on commerce and religious tolerance:
From Philosophical Letters: Or, Letters Regarding the English Nation
Hmm:
From “Bernie Sanders Would Have Voted Against the Moon Landing”
Sarah Constantin on her aims with her new blog: “In Search of Opportunity”
Tomas Puyeo on “Why Germany Won’t Keep Its Nuclear Plants Open”:
I think there’s an interesting sociocultural counterpoint to be made here by studying the Italian Futurists
I think the glorification of [“humanity over nature”, “young over old”, “brash over wise”, “strong over weak”, “future over present”, “men over women”] (all touted beliefs of the Italian Futurists) is unwise and harmful.
Your definition of futurism (“the systematic study of technological advancement for the purpose of understanding how people will live in the future”) isn’t harmful. It’s more a field of study than an ideology, but I wonder how quickly “pure academics” can turn ideological, especially when sharing the name of an old ideology.
I agree with you totally about the need to study and understand how people will live in the future, I just have also been thinking about how I see some of the traits of the old Futurism in the water. I see young men worshipping the new, the fast, the human, the strong… and I see some of those young men drawn to movements like Effective Altruism and Progress Studies, and the tech industry more broadly.
I wonder how movements like Progress Studies can be clear about what we are willing to sacrifice for “Futurism”, and what we are not. How do we avoid repeating the cultural mistakes of past technologists & futurists? Do we even agree about what those mistakes are?
Interesting and important piece, thanks for sharing!
I think to avoid repeating past mistakes, it’s crucial to remember that (1) technology and industry are ultimately valuable only in the service of human well-being, and (2) in order to ensure this, we need more than just technology and industry: we need the recognition and protection of individual rights.
Yes, I think the Italian Futurists provide us with interesting lessons. One reason their movement was so short-lived was the onset of WW1. A bunch of them died in various conflicts, but the intellectual foundations of the movement were also killed off. According to Marinetti and friends, technology and machinery was the source of dynamism and progressive change in society, and war was a primary means of putting this machinery to use. Yet in practice, the main ‘achievement’ of technological advancement in this period was a novel ‘meat-grinder’ style of warfare, one that ushered in the industrial-scale killing of faceless statistics. Rather than dynamic progress, they got pointless, static violence.
Both sides of the war had perfectly concrete visions of the future. Yet pursuit of these competing visions of progress caused them to largely neutralize each other. I therefore appreciate Eli’s focus upon a vision of the future that is constructive and credible, as well as concrete.
Balla’s Street Light was a personal favorite from my history of art class as an undergrad.
In his 2013 book, “Smarter Than You Think: How Technology Is Changing Our Minds for the Better,” Clive Thompson noted that “dystopian predictions are easy to generate” and “doomsaying is emotionally self-protective: if you complain that today’s technology is wrecking the culture, you can tell yourself you’re a gimlet-eyed critic who isn’t hoodwinked by high-tech trends and silly, popular activities like social networking. You seem like someone who has a richer, deeper appreciation for the past and who stands above the triviality of today’s life.” (p. 283)
I think that really nails it.
Strong agree. I called out “vision for the future” as one of four key areas that progress studies writers should focus on here: “What would a thriving progress movement look like?”
I would add another reason for futurism that’s maybe even more important: it can inspire and motivate scientists, inventors, and founders—exactly the people who will be actually making these breakthroughs. It can spotlight exciting opportunities and help direct their efforts. (Maybe this is just a part of your first reason.)
Because of all this, I think J. Storrs Hall did a great service with his book Where Is My Flying Car? It’s on my short list of essential progress books.
There are a number of books on the history of the idea of progress, most famously by J. B. Bury. I have only skimmed/sampled them, though.
The best thing I’ve read on this topic is from Joel Mokyr in The Atlantic: “Progress Isn’t Natural”
Nuclear going mainstream? https://twitter.com/CBSMornings/status/1516036558876553222
Thanks Adam! A few thoughts in response:
1. On comprehension vs. advocacy, I think there are actually two types of advocacy. One is more like “application” and is analogous to medicine or engineering: we learn something (comprehension) that can then be applied for practical results. In Cowen & Collison’s article, they give the example of teaching better management practices to companies.
The other type is advocating for progress itself: promoting the idea that progress is even desirable and possible. I don’t think this has an analog in biology/medicine, because health is not a very controversial goal. There is no “dehealth” movement advocating sickness; no one calls health an “addition” or a “fetish,” etc.
(The question of whether you can both “study” and “advocate” at the same time is interesting and important, and it would be good to take that up in a separate post/thread here.)
2. Related, re:
I think that’s right. Although I wouldn’t define PS primarily as a response to any other idea or movement. PS would be needed and would be essentially the same even if STS didn’t exist.
3. Re “big tent”, I generally agree, although I think this is a subtle issue.
I definitely want to avoid dogmatic party lines, or dogmatism of any form. (The question of epistemic standards for the progress movement is also worth a separate post and discussion.)
That said, I do think that there are certain basic premises that are needed to give this community/movement some coherence and identity. I’ve identified those as: progress as a historical fact; human well-being as the standard of value; and a belief in human agency. In other words: progress is real, desirable, and possible. (And even within those basic premises, there’s room for debate over exact definition, interpretation, and applications.)
If we agree on the goal, then there is a lot of room for debate about specific policies and approaches. The progress community spans a range from progressive to libertarian, and I’d love to see people debate their preferred systems in terms of what actually achieves progress.
I would go even a bit further and say that I would like this community, and especially this forum, to be welcoming of people who aren’t even sure that they’re on board with the basic premises, and don’t self-identify with the movement. No need to pledge allegiance or anything. If you can contribute to the discussion, then we’re glad to have you here.
All that said, I would emphasize that I do think the basic premises matter, including “hammering out all the detailed nuances.” I think those premises have powerful consequences for how we interpret “progress” and what conclusions we draw about it. So even while we leave them somewhat open, I think we should do so not on the idea that basic premises are irrelevant fluff, but rather on the idea that we’re still figuring out what they are, as part of an iterative epistemic process of improving our views.
“Progress is real, desirable, and possible” is an inspiring slogan, but I would suggest that it’s actually mistaken. What we want is differential progress where we accelerate those technologies most likely to be beneficial and slow those technologies most likely to be harmful.
What’s a good example of slowing a technology that is likely to be harmful?
Nuclear non-proliferation has slowed the distribution of nukes; I acknowledge that this is slowing distribution rather than development.
There are conventions against the use of or development of biological weapons. These don’t appear to have been completely successful, but they’ve had some effect.
There has been a successful effort to prevent genetic enhancement—this may be net-positive or net-negative—but it shows the possibility of preventing development of a tech, even in China which was assumed to be the wild West.
But going further, progress studies wouldn’t exist if we didn’t think we could accelerate technologies. And as a matter if logic if we have the option to accelerate something we also have the option to not accelerate it, otherwise it was never an option. So even if we can’t slow a harmful technology relative to a baseline, we can at least not accelerate it.
Chris, you seem to be reducing “progress” down to “technology”. This is exactly the type of thing progress studies needs to clarify. As someone who has spent half his life studying progress, my two cents on the issue is that it is helpful to view two distinct types of progress.
The first is what I call type 1 progress or progress in capability, knowledge or technology. This is nukes! Progress in technology and capability are fairly commonplace in history and even evolution.
The second is what I call type 2 progress, or progress in outcome or welfare. This is the hard one, and is extremely rare on a population level. The first and only known example of type 2 progress in the observable universe has been with humanity over the past 250 years or so.
Technology and science certainly play a crucial role in type 2 progress. But they are in no way sufficient.
OK. Why do these examples make “progress is real, desirable, and possible” mistaken?
Can’t it be understood that by “progress,” we mean progress on things that are good for human well-being? Does every reference to progress always have to include a qualifier or disclaimer?
Things that are good are desireable would seem like a tauntology.
But my deeper critique is that whether a motto is a good choice or not depends on the context. And while in the past it may have made sense to abstract out progress as good, we’re now at that point where operating within that abstraction can lead us horribly astray.
This looks interesting: “Funding for long-term-oriented people and projects”
https://www.futurefundinglist.com
Love it, I’m a rabid fan of David Deutsch and think he’s essentially answered these questions, so for fun I’m going to take a stab at them below.
The definition of “progress”: Increase in wealth, which is “the set of possible transformations.” This occurs through knowledge growth, which was described by Karl Popper as a process of conjecture and refutation.
How to measure progress: Again, how do we measure the number of possible transformations? When the Wright brothers discovered flight, they opened a new set of possible transformations. (I wonder—what’s the value of measuring this?)
The value of progress: pro, cons, risks, tradeoffs—Stagnation means extinction, this is not a viable option. The cons are all the problems that new discoveries potentiate. The trade-off is that we can’t solve old problems without creating new problems. In fact, new problems are one way to measure progress.
The causes of progress, and which ones are fundamental: Knowledge growth is fundamental.
The intellectual history of the idea of progress: The history of the enlightenment? Of mini-enlightenments (ie Athens).
Technological stagnation, and its causes and solutions: Anything that prohibits conjecture and/or criticism causes stagnation. A culture of criticism and open-ended brainstorming can’t help but make progress.
Histories of progress in various fields (as are often featured on this blog)
Opportunities and bottlenecks in various fields: What processes interrupted conjecture/criticism in those particular fields?
Visions of the future: A dynamic society, dominated by rational memes where anti-rational memes (memes that survive by disabling criticism) have no purchase.
Progress and safety (including existential risk): Knowledge growth, problem-solving and wealth creation.
Progress-minded approaches to other issues of the day (climate change, poverty/inequality, war, etc.)
The philosophy of progress in comparison with other approaches, such as Effective Altruism: EA is too focused on cause prioritization, which necessarily involves prophesy. Just focus on the interesting problems and let ’er rip! EA would do the best if they simply highlighted problems they find interesting for reasons of neglectedness, scale, impact on wellbeing, etc.
Research funding (including current efforts in alternative funding models)
Progress in science generally: All the same—conjecture and criticism. Identifying the enemies of each and improving.
Progress in morality, government, and society: Same as above.
I think that there is some value in this frame, but I guess I see this as limited to the context where we’re generally replacing bad problems with a less bad problems.
I guess it would seem a bit blase in a context where we take a problem that is only kind of bad and replace it with something that is a catastrophe.
So my tendency would be much more cautious about the potential to create new problems.